Level 100

[Melcar]

Hallo guys...
I'm building a level 100 character for our next great party adventure. And I need help. Im thinking that I will be building an arcane caster. But unsure if I should choose wizard or sorcerer.

I also need help whether or not to go 100 level of one class or 20 this 20 that.

ANy comments will be most welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

The game doesn't really work at that level. Are you using the default rules, Epic Spells and all?

[WebTiefling]

At level 100, even a non-optimized wizard or sorcerer is more powerful than the gods of D&D.

Does it really matter at that point? You have functionally infinite wealth. Can create your own universes. Destroy entire planets with a spell or two. Design your own spells of awesomeness. Have nearly unlimited spells per day.

Design your character around the challenges you'll be facing. Generic "optimization" at that level is useless IMO. The "optimization" is only worthwhile if targeted at a particular goal.

[Melcar]

The game doesn't really work at that level. Are you using the default rules, Epic Spells and all?

Yes... standard epic rules from Epic Level Handbook


At level 100, even a non-optimized wizard or sorcerer is more powerful than the gods of D&D.

Does it really matter at that point? You have functionally infinite wealth. Can create your own universes. Destroy entire planets with a spell or two. Design your own spells of awesomeness. Have nearly unlimited spells per day.

Design your character around the challenges you'll be facing. Generic "optimization" at that level is useless IMO. The "optimization" is only worthwhile if targeted at a particular goal.


Not sure how a wizard can have unlimited spells...

[JungleChicken]

I would think even a fighter at level 100 could cleaver a planet in two. Any caster would have to be careful NOT to destroy whatever plane of existence he is currently on.

[Tyndmyr]

Hallo guys...
I'm building a level 100 character for our next great party adventure. And I need help. Im thinking that I will be building an arcane caster. But unsure if I should choose wizard or sorcerer.

I also need help whether or not to go 100 level of one class or 20 this 20 that.

ANy comments will be most welcome! :smallbiggrin:

Now, this is an exercise in ludicrousness, you know, that, right?

I suggest Illithid going into Illithid Savant. It has an epic progression, so you can pretty much just keep doing it. Eat spellcasters. Laugh a lot.

Also, your WBL should be...oh, just buy all the things. All of them.



Not sure how a wizard can have unlimited spells...

There are actually a ridiculous number of ways to do it at that level. Personally, I like highly metamagicked...oh, what's that spell...not Spell Turning, but the one that is essentially the same, save it gives you spells to cast.

Hilarious when maximized and twinned. Toss on enough reducers, and you have a spell doubling mechanism.

Really, you might as well just sit down at the table and announce "I win".

[AWiz_Abroad]

Re: Your question. Build yourself INT boosting epic spells, one for each type of bonus. . . say +40 Inhererent, Enhancement, Luck, w/e. (Could be even higher). Your intelligence boost would essentially give you all the spells per day. And each boost would boost your Reflex save (insightful reflexes) and knowledge. Toss on Spell mastery/ Uncanny forethought and you're casting like a sorcerer who has EVERY spell.

If you took auto quicken enough to get everything quickened, and many multi-spell, you could dump as many spells as you wanted each round.

Speaking as a fellow epic player, who likes playing epic wizards, level 100 is pretty much insane. I really can't even concieve of that level of power. . . What is your DM trying to do with this campaign?

0_0

[AWiz_Abroad]

There are actually a ridiculous number of ways to do it at that level. Personally, I like highly metamagicked...oh, what's that spell...not Spell Turning, but the one that is essentially the same, save it gives you spells to cast.

Absorption.

[Melcar]

Re: Your question. Build yourself INT boosting epic spells, one for each type of bonus. . . say +40 Inhererent, Enhancement, Luck, w/e. (Could be even higher). Your intelligence boost would essentially give you all the spells per day. And each boost would boost your Reflex save (insightful reflexes) and knowledge. Toss on Spell mastery/ Uncanny forethought and you're casting like a sorcerer who has EVERY spell.

If you took auto quicken enough to get everything quickened, and many multi-spell, you could dump as many spells as you wanted each round.

Speaking as a fellow epic player, who likes playing epic wizards, level 100 is pretty much insane. I really can't even concieve of that level of power. . . What is your DM trying to do with this campaign?

0_0

Its just an excercise in character creation. Which if succesful and fun, we will b trying to kill some of the creatures from Immortals Handbook.

You say you are a fellow epic gamer... what level and character are you playing?

[Gavinfoxx]

Its just an excercise in character creation. Which if succesful and fun, we will b trying to kill some of the creatures from Immortals Handbook.

You say you are a fellow epic gamer... what level and character are you playing?

You can kill lots of the things in the immortals handbook with like level 15 characters.

[Yora]

Level 100 spellcaster? Wizard or Sorcerer? Why not both?

Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Mystic Theurge 60

Or throw in some 20 levels of cleric and druid in as well.

[Karnith]

Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Mystic Theurge 60
Two problems with that. First, Epic Mystic Theurge levels are awful - you're better off just alternating levels in your spellcasting classes. Second, you can't use Mystic Theurge to advance two arcane casting classes.

Really, you might as well just sit down at the table and announce "I win".
What's the old joke? That you may as well play Magic: the Gathering to model what high-/epic-level spellcasters do?

[bekeleven]

Build yourself INT boosting epic spells, one for each type of bonus. . . say +40 Inhererent, Enhancement, Luck, w/e.I want to see someone try to convince his DM to approve an epic spell granting a +40 dodge bonus to intelligence. "I'm dodging the dumb!"

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, well 20 levels of wizard. Then 20 levels of factotum, because standard actions are nice, and with 10-20 applications of FoI, you should have enough to do all the things. Then swiftblade 10 for more actions. Persist haste so your coolness never decreases. Then finish off with warblade 20, master of the nine, and then just fill out with wizard PRC's until there is nothing left. Abjurant champion and jade phoenix mage come to mind.

Now you get into to most things. Get +40 int items of all types to get your in MOD into the hundreds.

[Feilith]

Two problems with that. First, Epic Mystic Theurge levels are awful - you may as well just alternate levels in your spellcasting classes. Second, you can't use Mystic Theurge to advance two arcane casting classes.


Yeah, just Wizard 20/Druid20/Planar shepard10/ Mystic theurge 50

A god bear shooting god spells traveling between planes cleaving them in two

Become the snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

[AWiz_Abroad]

We just hit level 34 as a party.

I'm not fully optimized and no epic spells is a house rule. Regardless, I managed to get the INT into the 40s.

I'm playing a half dragon wizard who developed school specialization in our campaign setting (DM's been running the same world since 2nd Ed.)

(Conjuration Specialist/Master Specialist/Archmage/Mage of the Arcane Order/Loremaster). Like I said, suboptimal, but a lot of fun to play. His schtick is not HP damage, but instead massive amounts of battlefield control.

If we're trying for max cheese. I'd suggest attempting to PAOx2 + Supernatural transformation feat into Beholder mage.

Of course nothing says you can't stack beholder mage (enterable at level 3 with WBL with ilithid savant.

[Segev]

Your first 17 levels should be Knight, followed by Fighter 2 and any other full BAB class 1. Then pick up Wizard starting in epic levels.

Oh, you're ludicrously weak at level 20. And 21. And for a while until you hit level 30 at least. But by level 40, not only are you a level 20 wizard, you have stupid epic wealth. By level 100, the loss of 20 caster levels at pre-epic is wholly unnoticeable.

Meanwhile, you got full BAB while BAB was able to be earned. And the Knight's level 17 ability says you do not auto-fail saves on a 1. By level 100, you have saving throws that say "I succeed except on a 1." But you ignore all but the first two words of that.

[Flickerdart]

Meanwhile, you got full BAB while BAB was able to be earned. And the Knight's level 17 ability says you do not auto-fail saves on a 1. By level 100, you have saving throws that say "I succeed except on a 1." But you ignore all but the first two words of that.
Might as well take it to 20 at some point - Loyal Beyond Death is pretty useful in a rocket tag high-immunity environment where damage is the only way to affect things.

[bekeleven]

There are ways to turn all saves into skill checks using tome of battle, but I'm AFB at the moment.

If you're not doing that.... well, can anybody think of a full-BAB, all good-saves class to take for the first 20?

[Fouredged Sword]

Isn't there a stance somewhere that allows you to stay alive and acting unless you fail a fort save of DC equal to your negative HP? Mix that with the knights ability to pass a save on a 1 and silly high fort saves and you could add a significant buffer zone for your survival.

Sooo

Knight 20 / Wizard 20 / Factotum 20 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 10 / warblade 20 / Master of the Nine 5

[Segev]

Also, while this is more for a sorc than a wizard, I will, on the subject of saves, point the OP to "Ruin Delver's Fortune." It's in the Spell Compendium.

[Sith_Happens]

AFB, is there an Epic Ultimate Magus?

Actually, you know what? Factotum 8/Binder 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 20/Sorcerer 10/Ultimate Magus 10/Anima Mage 10/Dweomerkeeper 10/Incantatrix 30. Cast all the spells, with all the metamagic, all at once.

[Felandria]

Level 100?

Damn, I leveled Felandria to 25 and she's practically a god at that point.

At lv25 she doesn't even have to fight most of the time, a +47 to Intimidate takes care of most problems.

At 100 you can kill Cthulhu by blinking.

[Ansem]

I would think even a fighter at level 100 could cleaver a planet in two. Any caster would have to be careful NOT to destroy whatever plane of existence he is currently on.

If he takes Greater Cleave he can chop up the entire universe into cheesecubes in one turn :P

[Melcar]

Level 100?

Damn, I leveled Felandria to 25 and she's practically a god at that point.

At lv25 she doesn't even have to fight most of the time, a +47 to Intimidate takes care of most problems.

At 100 you can kill Cthulhu by blinking.

He he.... Is there a gaze attack im unaware of?

[Tvtyrant]

The most optimized build at level 100 is to knockout a hecatoncheires as a wizard and magic jar your way into their body. Now you have over 1,000 HP, can do over 2,000 damage a round with boulder throws, and still have epic casting. Also blanket immunities.

[Icewraith]

It really depends on what you will be facing, since I imagine at some point a certain amount of lost caster levels will hurt you.

I mean really, epic spellcasting is almost as good as manipulate form, all you need is to convince the dm and summon enough creatures to contribute spell slots to your DC 1 epic ritual.

[Segev]

A long while ago, I tried to come up with the DC for a spell that permanently altered the target into a Paragon. That is, its sole mechanical effect is to apply the Paragon epic template. I recall giving up because eyeballing the comparative effects of seeds to it grew frustrating.

[Xuldarinar]

Might I suggest Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge somewhere in the build?



Or, heres a thought:

Duskblade 20/Archivist 15/Wizard 15/Shadowcaster 15/Erudite 15/Noctumancer 10/Psychic Theurge 10

You can pool feats into getting meldshaping, maneuvers, binding, ect.

Focus on intellect, capitalize and a -massive- assortment of spells/powers/ect. Shadowcaster and Noctumancer could easily be swapped out with: Warlock and Eldritch Theurge, Binder and Anima Mage, Incarnate and Soulcaster, Swordsage and Jade Phoenix Mage, Ect.

You get full BaB, can channel any touch spell you know (and you should know all of them, maybe some epic ones as well).

[Chronos]

It really depends on what you will be facing, since I imagine at some point a certain amount of lost caster levels will hurt you.
There are a number of ways to get your caster level up to your character level, without having to spend all of your class levels on epic wizard levels that don't do anything else for you. Say, take five levels of Abjurant Champion, and then cast Divine Power. Oh, by the way, take levels of Archivist, too, so you can get divine spells like Divine Power.

If you're going to be taking arcane and divine classes both, there's no reason not to put in some Dweomerkeeper, so you can cast spells as supernatural abilities.

You might also want a spontaneous casting class such as Beguiler, so you can take Versatile Spellcaster. Don't just know all the spells; be able to cast them all spontaneously, too.

And make sure that you've got the Initiate of Mystra feat, too. Past a certain point, every fight is going to take place inside an antimagic field (probably from a Permanent Emanation).

Don't bother with Incantatrix, though, since there are other ways to persist spells. For instance, use Genesis to make a plane with enhanced magic, so you can pile all of your favorite metamagics on your spells for free.

[Rubik]

Depending on the sources available, I'd suggest society mind (or psion) 20/illithid savant 80. Take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) so you ignore attacks of opportunity and power/spell resistance on your manifestations and so that your manifester level never suffers. As an illithid savant, steal the spell-to-power erudite's ability to learn spells and psionic powers, the metamind's font of power capstone, and the singular enemy ability of your own aleax (Shapechanged into something with a brain to eat).

Now use the erudite's learning ability to learn every power and spell in the game (using various methods to gain additional spells on your class list) and use Temporal Reiteration from Complete Psionic to get infinite power points forever.

Even better, start as a dvati and store one body on a flowing time demiplane with a ludicrously sped-up timeframe. Now you can research epic spells in seconds (or less)!

[edit] Next, Gate in a hagunemnon and force it to Shapechange into something with a brain. Eat its shapeshifting ability to Shapechange into an amalgamated form of up to five different enemies. Laugh.

After that, Gate in a devastation beetle. Polymorph it into something useful, then Fusion with it, followed by Astral Seed and a character rebuilding session to change those racial HD into levels. Have fun gaining 28 levels, gestalting with vermin HD, and having a crapton of hp.

[Eldan]

Hm. You want a ton of epic feats, because those beat most non-epic class features.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 84/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10?

You probably can't get much more ridiculous with magic than that. Just pour all your feats into Automatic Metamagic of your choice, Improved Spell Capacity, Epic spellcasting, Improved Metamagic and about a dozen instances of Multispell.

It gets easy from there, really. With Epic Spellcasting, you can easily give yourself an arbitrarily high intelligence, let's say 5000. Combind with Improved Spell Capacity, that gives you hundreds or thousands of spells per day. With Improved Metamagic, you can cast a dozen or so spells per round. Of course, you can also layer an arbitrary amount of metamagic on them, thanks to the Incantatrix and your spellcraft check, which benefits from that intelligence.

There's not much that can stand up to that. Especially not the Immortal Handbook, a lot of the stuff in there is ridiculously weak.

[NichG]

At level 100, even a non-optimized wizard or sorcerer is more powerful than the gods of D&D.



I would think even a fighter at level 100 could cleaver a planet in two. Any caster would have to be careful NOT to destroy whatever plane of existence he is currently on.


Level 100?
Damn, I leveled Felandria to 25 and she's practically a god at that point.

At lv25 she doesn't even have to fight most of the time, a +47 to Intimidate takes care of most problems.

At 100 you can kill Cthulhu by blinking.

The funny thing is, there's functionally very little difference between what a Lv25 character and a Lv100 character can actually do. You pretty much have access to all the same stuff by that point, but the Lv100 character just has numbers that are about 4 times bigger. If you want to be cleaving planets in two, you'd better be able to do it by Lv25 or you aren't going to be able to do it by Lv100 just by adding those extra 75 levels.

Really you need more PrCs/things that open up only at high levels to make this particularly interesting - thats basically what made it work in one game I was in that got up to levels in the mid 30s.

Alternately, use all those levels to meet the really harsh prereqs for that True Dragon Only class that turns you into a deity. I think you need to be like Lv40 to finish that, so at least that gets you a bit further.

[MrNobody]

I can't even think about HOW to deal with a level 100 character, either as a player and as a DM.

Just for flavour I'd go with the one-man-party: Fighter 20 /wizard 20 /cleric 20 /rogue 20 /bard 20! Maybe swapping from role-equivalent classes from non-core sourcebook!

[Sith_Happens]

The funny thing is, there's functionally very little difference between what a Lv25 character and a Lv100 character can actually do. You pretty much have access to all the same stuff by that point, but the Lv100 character just has numbers that are about 4 times bigger. If you want to be cleaving planets in two, you'd better be able to do it by Lv25 or you aren't going to be able to do it by Lv100 just by adding those extra 75 levels.

One word: Items. A 25th level character has a WBL of 2.1 million gp. A 100th level character can buy the planes. All of them. Twice.

[NichG]

One word: Items. A 25th level character has a WBL of 2.1 million gp. A 100th level character can buy the planes. All of them. Twice.

Yeah, but 'all of the items' is actually pretty underwhelming once you hit epic levels, assuming you're sticking with items from the books. It translates to a few extra stat points, a few extra to-hit bonuses, and always-on copies of a couple nice spells/immunities/etc. Which, really, you can get by Lv25 anyhow.

The problem is that basically there are no new mechanics introduced at super-high levels. In the Lv1 thru Lv20 range, you have all sorts of new stuff coming in: flight, teleportation, the ability to get immunities, the ability to break/bypass immunities, save-or-dies, planar travel, high summoning (that is, Gate/Planar Ally as opposed to Summon Monster), divinations, action economy breakers like Quicken and Time Stop, etc.

By epic levels, there just isn't much left in the system that changes. Immortals Handbook basically was an attempt to fix it by a combination of 'no, actually you lose all of that stuff because of the defenses of deities, but here's how you get it back again' and a couple actually novel abilities/mechanics.

[Kane0]

Make a level 20 easy-bake wizard, then open up complete arcane. Pick out any PrC that catches your eye and add them in to your hearts content. Fill out any remaining levels with swiftblade, incantrix, etc.

You are now an arcane spellcaster with all the nice things.

Alternatively, build yourself a ridiculous ToB character. Warblade 20 Swordsage 20 assorted PrCs 60 would be pretty fun.

Edit: Or fill out a character sheet as if you were a super Saiyan in the Avatar state.

[limejuicepowder]

Edit: Or fill out a character sheet as if you were a super Saiyan in the Avatar state.

NerdRage warning: SSJ is immeasurably more powerful than the avatar state, and the two shouldn't be compared in/on any sentence, timeline, graph, or abacus. /endnerdrage.

[Felandria]

He he.... Is there a gaze attack im unaware of?

At that level, like half my skills are so high they're an automatic success.

My character is a giantess, yet her stealth is so high she can practically hide behind an invisible dwarf.

The sad thing is, the people I play with, if they built a level 25 character, they'd probably make her look weak.

[Tyndmyr]

Two problems with that. First, Epic Mystic Theurge levels are awful - you're better off just alternating levels in your spellcasting classes. Second, you can't use Mystic Theurge to advance two arcane casting classes.

True, but Ultimate Magus fixes those issues right up, and as a ten level class, it automatically goes epic even if one isn't written.



Meanwhile, you got full BAB while BAB was able to be earned. And the Knight's level 17 ability says you do not auto-fail saves on a 1. By level 100, you have saving throws that say "I succeed except on a 1." But you ignore all but the first two words of that.

I usually rely on the luck feats to get the autopass on the 1, because it does not merely remove the autofail, it treats it as an autosuccess. I like things that go beyond mere numbers.

I'm just going to assume that troll blooded, etc is a thing, and enough immunities exist to make death through such mundane ways as being stabbed, poisoned or burned laughably irrelevant.

The reason I took the Illithid Savant? Well, you can strip out the class features you want. You're an epic level spellcaster. Find the person that has what you want, eat their brain. Gain ALL the abilities.

You want to fire ten spells a round base? Eat a beholder mage. Want extra standard actions? Eat a factotum. Want spellcasting? Eat a casters brain. Repeat as necessary. If you can't cast everything in the game an arbitrarily large number of times, you're doing something wrong. Your skills will all be +yes.

[Nizaris]

Knight 20 / Wizard (Abjuration specialty) 5 / Sorcerer 1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Factotum 16 / Swiftblade 10 / warblade 20 / Master Specialist (abjuration) 9/ Archmage 1 (for Mastery of Counterspell) / Cleric 3 (for Divine Defiance feat) / Master of Nine 5

So you have Full BAB and Will saves, Wizard CL 31 (plus a couple of bonuses), Sorcerer 9, Initiator 62, Cleric 3.

This is epic all you need to fear is other casters. You have concealment against target spells, you can counterspell without preparation to turn it back on the caster, you have stupid action economy thanks to Swiftblade and Factotum, Int modifier applies to Con/Str/Dex checks, skills, and AC (twice if needed), Diamond Mind and Iron Heart Surge let you avoid what you cannot counterspell, and you ignore partial effects to spells you save against. And no one has spell resistance against your spells.

You have an extra standard action on your turn and 62 points of Inspiration every encounter (just give in and take font of Inspiration 10 times) which lets you take up to 20 extra standard actions on your turn every combat. It's a standard action to recover all of your maneuvers so blow them as much as you like and recover with your free Haste standard action.

RAW, Shifting Defense Stance combined with Improved Combat Reflexes let you avoid melee attacks entirely if you increase the length of your 5ft steps (Arms & Equipment supposedly has an item that can and a DC 40 Tumble can increase to 10 in Oriental Adventures.) Assuming you're using RAW and not RAI. Moment of Alacrity gives you 2 counters per turn for Diamond Mind saving throw boosters (make sure to get Int to Will [Keen Intellect feat] and Int to Reflex) If needed you can add your Int again with Cunning Inspiration or your Initiator level (62) to any save if you really need to make sure you succeed. I seriously doubt much can hurt you as much as you can hurt it.

[Platymus Pus]

I would think even a fighter at level 100 could cleaver a planet in two. Any caster would have to be careful NOT to destroy whatever plane of existence he is currently on.

A level 100 character should only be 5 times stronger than a level 20 right?
Of course I don't know that much about epic play what modifiers it should have and such, so tell me why it'd be a big deal for anything other than a magic user.
I just don't think the game is built for such high level play.
A level 20 ranged ranger still seems like a guy that just fires arrows and never ends up doing anything like this (http://youtu.be/MDSSORfR4Is?t=9m13s) even at level 100, especially if he uses crossbows.
As for guys that swing bladed items you can just calculate carrying capacity based off str and to see how high it can really be.
Because it'd have to be pretty up there to cut planets in half.

The most optimized build at level 100 is to knockout a hecatoncheires as a wizard and magic jar your way into their body. Now you have over 1,000 HP, can do over 2,000 damage a round with boulder throws, and still have epic casting. Also blanket immunities.
I'd think the wizard would be better off running nude at that point instead of that considering a level 20 character can do some of the things a hecatoncheires can including having better saves, initiative and the ability to stop time setting up for massive dmg in a single round, around 1000 hp in a round with no resistances then just stopping time again because no one is out speeding you or even knows where the hell you are. I mean why get something with 10+ initiative when you can have something like 34+ at level 20.

[NichG]

Well to be fair, if you can get your Strength into the 300+ range you start being able to lift weights on par with celestial bodies (though of course you can't do anything with them without a couple of classes). So thats the direction towards 'cutting planets in half' and the like.

The thing is, this can be done without being Lv100. Being Lv100 doesn't actually help you all that much to do it, either.

[TuggyNE]

A level 100 character should only be 5 times stronger than a level 20 right?

Not sure if serious. :smallconfused:

But no, levels scale exponentially, as though a log scale. This is why 2 CR X creatures make an EL X + 2 encounter, or 4 CR X - 2 creatures, etc. So a level 100 character should in theory be somewhere around 2(100-20)/2 or about a trillion times as strong.

Needless to say, no one ever even comes close to that level of growth, which is the root cause of epic-level dissonance: it's impossible to meaningfully represent characters at even a tiny fraction of the power the system thinks they should have, so instead most people fall back into stretching the levels out endlessly and bizarrely, so there's no substantial difference between a level 80 and a level 100, for example, except that their numbers are meaninglessly larger in various irrelevant ways.

Beyond level 30 or 40, epic cannot meaningfully be defined in any sort of way that's consistent with the rest of the system. (It's made worse by the fact that most legendary characters in various stories could reasonably be considered as level 20 characters or less, which means that even at level 30, you're already beyond all but the most extreme stories and imagination of all of human thought.)

[Sith_Happens]

Knight 20 / Wizard (Abjuration specialty) 5 / Sorcerer 1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Factotum 16 / Swiftblade 10 / warblade 20 / Master Specialist (abjuration) 9/ Archmage 1 (for Mastery of Counterspell) / Cleric 3 (for Divine Defiance feat) / Master of Nine 5

So you have Full BAB and Will saves, Wizard CL 31 (plus a couple of bonuses), Sorcerer 9, Initiator 62, Cleric 3.

Needs Abjurant Champion 5 and four more levels of Cleric casting so you can get Caster Level = Character Level by persisting Divine Power.


A level 100 character should only be 5 times stronger than a level 20 right?

Character power scales decidedly nonlinearly. Exponentially, in fact, if the CR system is to be believed (though that's a big "if").

[NichG]

I'd say the real curve is exponential only below Lv20, since the 'exponential' aspect comes from new abilities opening up constantly, and those abilities defining new qualitatively different sets of powers. When you don't get new abilities, additional levels just up the numbers.

So I would pretty much expect a Lv100 character to be about 5 times as powerful as a Lv20 character. That basically means that a Lv100 character has roughly the same relationship to a Lv20 character as a Lv20 character has to a ~Lv15 character, since doubling the participants increases CR by 2.

The other thing thats tricky is that the standard deviation of power-levels of characters at a certain level grows much faster than the mean, because most of the increase of power comes from an increase in options. The gap between 'the average unoptimized character of X level' and 'the average optimized character of X level' gets really big really fast, to the point where even in the 1-20 range it ends up being far more important than the actual level, even excluding TO things like Pun-Pun that set the upper bound at 'arbitrarily high' at Lv1.

[Platymus Pus]

Well to be fair, if you can get your Strength into the 300+ range you start being able to lift weights on par with celestial bodies (though of course you can't do anything with them without a couple of classes). So thats the direction towards 'cutting planets in half' and the like.

The thing is, this can be done without being Lv100. Being Lv100 doesn't actually help you all that much to do it, either.

That's why I was asking if levels did anything different in epic.
I mean you get 5 points per 20 levels going by 1-20 right?
At most that is a 25+ bonus to one stat if it's all the same.
Not really all that powerful if you have to rely on items for that kind of power.

Not sure if serious. :smallconfused:

But no, levels scale exponentially, as though a log scale. This is why 2 CR X creatures make an EL X + 2 encounter, or 4 CR X - 2 creatures, etc. So a level 100 character should in theory be somewhere around 2(100-20)/2 or about a trillion times as strong.

Needless to say, no one ever even comes close to that level of growth, which is the root cause of epic-level dissonance: it's impossible to meaningfully represent characters at even a tiny fraction of the power the system thinks they should have, so instead most people fall back into stretching the levels out endlessly and bizarrely, so there's no substantial difference between a level 80 and a level 100, for example, except that their numbers are meaninglessly larger in various irrelevant ways.

Beyond level 30 or 40, epic cannot meaningfully be defined in any sort of way that's consistent with the rest of the system. (It's made worse by the fact that most legendary characters in various stories could reasonably be considered as level 20 characters or less, which means that even at level 30, you're already beyond all but the most extreme stories and imagination of all of human thought.)
That seems to imply a level 10 character stands no chance against a level 20.
I mean the level 20 more than twice as strong, so he shouldn't right; even if the level 20 is naked? I think the scaling is wonky. Stats wise I don't see that much of a difference between a level 10 and 20 without equipment.
Stats should reflect how strong something actually is.

Of course if DnD wasn't like this it'd be like this.
http://youtu.be/E6CVm6maxWQ?t=59s
And that game can't even show the proper amount of power either despite insane numbers that reach into the quads with ease and levels that go to 9999.
So in practice it's just easier to stay small I guess, don't have to calc several trillion dmg.



Character power scales decidedly nonlinearly. Exponentially, in fact, if the CR system is to be believed (though that's a big "if").
A system's flaws only show more with bigger numbers unfortunately as far as showings of power go.

[ShadowFireLance]

Heheh...heheHEHHAHAHA.

(Everyone Else: Oh Tiamat, It's Shady.)


Well, Hello there.

This is the guy who ran a 500th level Trisalt.
For those that don't know, It's 3 levels at once.
So, I could be a Wiz1/Ftr1/Cleric1 All at the same time.
At 500th level, it gets crazy.


Anyways, Your best bet is to Go Wiz 20, Mass into PrC's, then hunt down an Newtronium Golem, Magic jar or similar, Take control of that, and sit down, and smack your DM for being Stupid. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

You want 13 of your first 20 levels to be a full AB class, well technically just enough that you end up with your 4 attacks.

Then you want 19 levels of Factotum.

Next you are going to want 17 levels of Monk.

My advice to this point is Rogue 1/ Fighter 13/ Monk 6/ Factotum 19.

The next question is about how high op you want to be. If you want lower op then go Wizard 3/ Archivist 3/ Mystic Theuge 17 and then Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 17.

You are now at ECL 82 and have Int based Divine casting at CL 20 from Archivist, Int based Arcane casting at CL 37 from Wizard, and Int based manifesting at CL 20 from Psion.

Now you want one or two levels of Swordsage, Crusader, and Warblade to pick up some maneuvers. Fill in the rest with dips that are useful.

If you want high op then you want to dump Wizard and Archivist for straight Psion and use the various methods of getting every spell and power in the game onto your powers known list.

Then take lots of Feat Rogue, the bonus feat every other level is huge because of Chaos Shuffle to make them all useful. 10 iterations of Improved Manifestation gets you an additional 280 PP. 20 iterations gets you 760 extra PP total.

Max Font of Inspiration as well. Then start grabbing all of the other useful or good feats.

----
Although again, if you have to ask for help to create or play a character over level 20 then you really shouldn't be playing Epic. It's difficult enough to do when everyone involved really knows the rules and knows what they are doing. If that isn't the case then it is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Rubik]

You want 13 of your first 20 levels to be a full AB class, well technically just enough that you end up with your 4 attacks.Actually, all you need is a single 4th level spell. (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

Even better, base attack bonus isn't the same as epic attack bonus, so if you're level 100 you get +40 epic attack which stacks with the +100 you get from BAB.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, all you need is a single 4th level spell. (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

Even better, base attack bonus isn't the same as epic attack bonus, so if you're level 100 you get +40 epic attack which stacks with the +100 you get from BAB.

You are better off always having the extra attack, especially as the only benefit to taking casting classes past level 20 is the extra caster level.

Yeah, divine power is nice and you should have it up and persisted but it's still better to naturally have the fourth attack. Especially with MDJ being thrown around like candy in Epic. And all of the people with Permanent Emanation: AMF. And dead magic zones. And all of the other methods of making buffs cease working.

Besides, Fighter gives you a d10 HD and another feat every other level. It's actually one of the best classes to pick up levels in in higher epic.

I mean Feat Rogue is better for skill points but you should already have enough of those, especially with Factotum and Brains Over Brawn.

[Rubik]

You are better off always having the extra attack, especially as the only benefit to taking casting classes past level 20 is the extra caster level.

Yeah, divine power is nice and you should have it up and persisted but it's still better to naturally have the fourth attack. Especially with MDJ being thrown around like candy in Epic. And all of the people with Permanent Emanation: AMF. And dead magic zones. And all of the other methods of making buffs cease working.Does not compute. Reread the spell. "Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)" means you do have full iterative attacks, even if you naturally have 0 BAB, even in epic.

And since you're probably wanting levels in cleric for DP anyway, take three levels and Initiate of Mystra for AMF and dead magic zone avoidance, and there are ways to throw a big middle finger at MDJ as well.


Besides, Fighter gives you a d10 HD and another feat every other level. It's actually one of the best classes to pick up levels in in higher epic.

I mean Feat Rogue is better for skill points but you should already have enough of those, especially with Factotum and Brains Over Brawn.Given how cheap feats are to buy (3,000 to 10,000 gp, uncrafted, plus the cost of the castings of a DCFS (including traps thereof), and how crafting makes feats and the DCFS spells themselves insanely cheap to get, it's not really a big deal to have lots and lots of feats through levels later on. One level 20 build of mine has nearly a thousand feats, every useful item in the entire game, and still has the crafting equivalent of 5,333,531.96 gp left over.

Hit points aren't very valuable at high level either, given how easy it is to gain immunity to all forms of hp damage through spells, feats, and items, as well as various forms of self-resurrection. I mean, my level 17 monk for your terrifically terrible trial had enough hardness to survive a full attack from the hardest hitters of any monster in any book, and enough ways of avoiding attacks, including miss chances and immunities, to have a better than even chance of surviving facing off against the hardest hitting uberchargers.

You should know better, Tippy. Tsk tsk. :smallbiggrin:

[ShadowFireLance]

Or better yet, eat the level adjustment and be an War Troll Half-Black Dragon, and say: 'Screw it' to any HP damage.

[TuggyNE]

That seems to imply a level 10 character stands no chance against a level 20.

Well, you tell me: try running a level 10 wizard against a level 20 wizard, and see how far you get.

Note that even a full party of four level 10 characters gets no experience from defeating a CR 20 challenge, since it's assumed to be pure fluke: the system does not consider it possible. (Vice versa, of course; a level 20 character defeating a level 10 party is assumed to auto-succeed trivially, and gains no XP.)


Stats wise I don't see that much of a difference between a level 10 and 20 without equipment.
Stats should reflect how strong something actually is.

You mean just the raw ability scores, or what?

[Yora]

A wizard 10 laying an ambush for a fighter 20 in a wide open field? That shouldn't really be a problem for the wizard. The only thing that could be an issue are any powerful magic items the fighter might have because of the wealth he is assumed to have by that level.

[Platymus Pus]

The other thing thats tricky is that the standard deviation of power-levels of characters at a certain level grows much faster than the mean, because most of the increase of power comes from an increase in options. The gap between 'the average unoptimized character of X level' and 'the average optimized character of X level' gets really big really fast, to the point where even in the 1-20 range it ends up being far more important than the actual level, even excluding TO things like Pun-Pun that set the upper bound at 'arbitrarily high' at Lv1.

Well, you tell me: try running a level 10 wizard against a level 20 wizard, and see how far you get.

Note that even a full party of four level 10 characters gets no experience from defeating a CR 20 challenge, since it's assumed to be pure fluke: the system does not consider it possible. (Vice versa, of course; a level 20 character defeating a level 10 party is assumed to auto-succeed trivially, and gains no XP.)

That's stupid.
A level 1 can beat a 20 with the right conditions and equipment.
Example: a level 1 character 1 shots a level 9999 character due to buffs and equipment.
Level is hardly an actual factor to determine a fight everything else should be.
Else we get can a level 20 character automatically defeating someone when he's completely useless or useless in comparison.



You mean just the raw ability scores, or what?

Yea pretty much.
If the stats are nearly identical what's the real difference besides hitdice,feats,bonuses,spells,class and the like?
Especially if they are used as a measure of the character.

A wizard 10 laying an ambush for a fighter 20 in a wide open field? That shouldn't really be a problem for the wizard. The only thing that could be an issue are any powerful magic items the fighter might have because of the wealth he is assumed to have by that level.
There are ways to make that not as much of a problem aren't there?
I mean a trap of sorts always is cool.

[NichG]

Yea pretty much.
If the stats are nearly identical what's the real difference besides hitdice,feats,bonuses,spells,class and the like?
Especially if they are used as a measure of the character.


The stats don't actually matter all that much. The class abilities, spells, and feats are most of the power of the character.

For example, the value of a reroll on a d20 roll is about a +5 - better if you can reroll after you know the result. You'd need 10 stat points to get that bonus, but you can basically get it through the luck feats instead. The effect of a single 2nd level spell (Divine Insight) can give as much as a +15 to any skill check, which would require a whopping +30 to an ability score to achieve, or 15 levels worth of skill cap. Glibness, a 3rd level spell, can give +30 to Bluff, which requires a +60 to an ability score to duplicate or 30 levels worth of skill cap. Divine Power can double your BAB in the most extreme case, and so on.

The raw numbers grow linearly. The things you can leverage those numbers to do (and the things that feed back on those numbers) are what makes power growth exponential. Thats why, yeah, a Lv10 Fighter with 'Toughness' for all his feats and a Lv20 Fighter with 'Toughness' for all his feats aren't going to showcase the difference nearly as much as the Lv10 optimized Wizard vs the Lv20 optimized Wizard. That said, the Lv20 'Toughness Fighter' will still basically always win that straight up fight against the Lv10 Fighter - random chance on the die rolls is just not enough to make up the difference compounded over many rounds of combat.

But on average, people aren't trying really hard not to have any useful class features, and even the average Lv20 Fighter will end up with some interesting synergistic feats.

[LordotheMorning]

Shadowcaster 20/Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10/Telflammar Shadowlord 6/Cleric 1/Warblade 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Factotum 20. That probably doesn't add up to 100, but you can fill in the gaps.

Take Craven and Darkstalker for feats. Crank up your INT and DEX, buy some skill boosting items and watch your hide check sail into the hundreds. Cast Mindblank (for Diviniation-blocking), Flicker, and Dimension Jumper, and as many Quickened Dimension Hops as you like. Never be seen ever, get 100 flat damage on all sneak attacks, and enjoy getting full attacks on your Standard Action, Move Action, Swift Action/Immediate Action every single turn, for a bare minimum of three and the option to burn turn attempts to get a ton more.

[TuggyNE]

A wizard 10 laying an ambush for a fighter 20 in a wide open field? That shouldn't really be a problem for the wizard. The only thing that could be an issue are any powerful magic items the fighter might have because of the wealth he is assumed to have by that level.

I did say "Wizard" both times, didn't I? That was intentional.


That's stupid.
A level 1 can beat a 20 with the right conditions and equipment.
Example: a level 1 character 1 shots a level 9999 character due to buffs and equipment.
Level is hardly an actual factor to determine a fight everything else should be.

Generally, this is only true with enormous cheese (to the point of being irrelevant in pretty much any actual game, epic or otherwise) or by breaking WBL so hard it leaves a crater in your books.

Even if you give the characters equal equipment (which is by no means assumed by the level system, and is in no way a good reflection of how epic power should grow), the level 10 should still be almost entirely incapable of beating the level 20. It's only if you trade equipment around that you even have a chance, and frankly, a Wizard 20 with no gear will probably still wipe the floor with a Wizard 10 that has full level 20 WBL nine times out of ten.


If the stats are nearly identical what's the real difference besides hitdice,feats,bonuses,spells,class and the like?

How does "the hit dice, feats, bonuses, spells, and class features" grab you? Why, what else would you expect makes a character strong? :smallconfused: It's not just ability scores, I'll tell you that.


Especially if they are used as a measure of the character.

Yes, but who does that? Not the leveling system.

[Erik Vale]

I'm skipping to the end because why not.

Have you ever read the scene in the Harry Poter and the Natural 20 fanfic where thingimagig [my memory is like a sieve and I can't be bothered looking] the visitor from the dnd universe looks into the mirror and sees himself as the guy that the Lady of Pain tip toes around?
Yea, you become that guy, and then spontaneously die of boredom. Then do it again some 89 or so times using a normal resurrection spell to drop down to level 10 and relevel because why not?

[Talderas]

A level 100 character should only be 5 times stronger than a level 20 right?

No. The reason is epic spells.

At level 20, let's say you have a +30 Spellcraft Item, +6 Int enhancement, +5 int inherent, and a starting int of 20 with +5 from level ups for a score of 36. With max spellcraft ranks you have a spellcraft check of 61. You spell DCs, for spells you cast that have them, are now DC 10 + Spell Level + 8.

Add one level and unlock epic spellcasting so you now have a spellcraft check of 62. With a spellcraft check of 63 (that's assuming a 1 on the d20 roll) I can now craft an epic spell that lasts for 20 hours which grants me a +24 enhancement bonus on intelligence. Now I have an intelligence of 52. So now my spellcraft check is 9 points higher for other epic spells. Additionally, from one level my save DCs have increased from DC10 + Spell Level + 8 to DC 10 + Spell Level + 23. One level and that's a doubling.

Now, let's advance to level 100. At the very least I'm adding 79 ranks of spellcraft as well as 20 more points of intelligence. I can recreate that spell but I'll have to use a +24 int enhancement item to work from a 72 intelligence. I've probably gained at least a +75 spellcraft item by this time. So now my spellcraft check is 103 ranks + 75 from the item + 31 from intelligence for a total of 209 (210 with 1 on a d20 roll). With a 210 my intelligence buff is now 97 making my intelligence score 145 increase my spellcraft bonus from intelligence to +67. My saves are now DC 10 + Spell Level + 67 or an increase of 44. So going from 20->100 save DCs increase by 59. Meanwhile, your epic save bonus grants you a +40 over 80 levels.

However the bigger point is that these epic intelligence spells increase your spellcraft check which allows other epic spells which you craft to be significantly more potent than would be achievable without the buff. So now I'm free to mash multiple seeds together and create some rather insane and crazy stuff.

[Renen]

Gotta love someone who just joined the site (august) telling people he can get a lvl 1 to kill a lvl 9999, and saying lvl 20 is only 2x stronger than lvl 10.

[Chronos]

Tippy, what are the 17 levels of Monk for? Do you really want Tongue of the Sun and Moon that much?

If, as I suspect, you're just going for the Timeless Body, you're much better off going with 5 levels of wildshape ranger (or druid, but druid tends to not play well with a lot of things) and 10 levels of Master of Many Forms. In addition to the timeless body bit and all of the wildshaping goodness, that also gives you immunity to all unwanted transmutations, which are otherwise a pretty reliable form of save-or-lose. Unless you have some other defense against a necropolitan Tainted Scholar casting Polymorph Any Object many times per round?

Oh, and you shouldn't start with Knight at first level, either. Take your first level in Warblade and your second level in Crusader. Then, starting at level 33 or so, take as many other Warblade levels as you want, and then at least one level of a ToB prestige class such as Master of Nine. This'll let you get White Raven Tactics as an idiot crusader, and make the factotum/swiftblades cower in awe of your action economy (of course, you can still also be a factotum/swiftblade yourself, too).

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, what are the 17 levels of Monk for? Do you really want Tongue of the Sun and Moon that much?

If, as I suspect, you're just going for the Timeless Body, you're much better off going with 5 levels of wildshape ranger (or druid, but druid tends to not play well with a lot of things) and 10 levels of Master of Many Forms. In addition to the timeless body bit and all of the wildshaping goodness, that also gives you immunity to all unwanted transmutations, which are otherwise a pretty reliable form of save-or-lose. Unless you have some other defense against a necropolitan Tainted Scholar casting Polymorph Any Object many times per round?
True, exact levels and ACF's to use depends far too much on what specifically you want to do. But the monk is actually for the fast movement speed. Combine with Balance on the Sky (which one level of Swordsage can get you, or just a feat if you want to be a bit cheesy) and it effectively gives you an 80 ft. per round "fly" speed that is active 24/7.


Oh, and you shouldn't start with Knight at first level, either. Take your first level in Warblade and your second level in Crusader. Then, starting at level 33 or so, take as many other Warblade levels as you want, and then at least one level of a ToB prestige class such as Master of Nine. This'll let you get White Raven Tactics as an idiot crusader, and make the factotum/swiftblades cower in awe of your action economy (of course, you can still also be a factotum/swiftblade yourself, too).

If you are building a character past level 40, never take any ToB class levels until after that point. A one level dip gives you an IL of 20+ and combined with Chaos Shuffling feats you can end up picking your maneuvers from the entire list. The only time this advice changes is if you want some specific other class feature of the ToB class. And the only one even potentially worth taking all the way is Warblade for Stance Mastery.

[Talderas]

If you are building a character past level 40, never take any ToB class levels until after that point. A one level dip gives you an IL of 20+ and combined with Chaos Shuffling feats you can end up picking your maneuvers from the entire list. The only time this advice changes is if you want some specific other class feature of the ToB class. And the only one even potentially worth taking all the way is Warblade for Stance Mastery.

Why did you pick the figure of 40? The primary reason to delay entry is to raise IL to qualify for higher level maneuvers when you take the initator class level. Since 9th level maneuvers are available at IL17 you only need to take 34 non-initiator class levels to achieve IL16. The 35th level as warblade, crusader, or swordsage would then grant you IL17 and access to 9th level maneuvers.

There might be some arguments, also, regarding taking initiator classes earlier due to the build's overall class array and needing to get to a BAB +16. Those are, of course, exceptions.

[Chronos]

The starting levels of warblade and crusader are put at the beginning for a reason. In this case, not having access to most of the maneuvers is a feature, not a bug. This lets you access the Idiot Crusader trick with a minimal investment in class levels (granted, you have a ton of class levels available, but there are also a ton of nice things to use those levels on, so frugality is still worthwhile).

Level 33 was also as intended. By that point, you have 1 level in Warblade (for +1 IL) and 32 levels in other classes (for +16 IL), giving you a total Warblade IL of 17, which is enough to qualify for any maneuver.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, sleepy and not thinking. 32 it is. The point still stands, you shouldn't be taking any ToB levels pre epic if building a high epic character.

[Nizaris]

Needs Abjurant Champion 5 and four more levels of Cleric casting so you can get Caster Level = Character Level by persisting Divine Power.

Since we're going to be boosting Cleric then we can drop Sorc and Ultimate Magus (we lose some semi-free metamagic but frees up 10 levels) for Mystic Theurge 4 and Abjurant Champion 5.

There's one level left for a +1 LA race/template or for a level in any class.

[Gorfnod]

If you are really planning on playing at Level 100 all you have to do is this.

1. Print out a character sheet.
2. Write a name.
3. Write Level 100.
4. Skip the part where your DM describes the world or problems or anything else because who cares, you are level 100.
5. Anything that will actually be considered an encounter for a Level 100 character is so horribly powerful that you can not run combat in the normal manner of DnD. I suggest that you instead roll a d100.

51-100 - You Win, Congrats

01-50 - You Lose and the "monstrosity" forever destroys your soul with its awesome power.
6. Start a new campaign at Level 1.

[Talderas]

Yeah, sleepy and not thinking. 32 it is. The point still stands, you shouldn't be taking any ToB levels pre epic if building a high epic character.

I don't think it's any levels, the levels can be taken earlier but they need to be done strategicly. I would agree that any levels prior to 32 is a good general rule. Most 9th level maneuvers have requirements of knowing other maneuvers from the school to learn them. So you may need 0-4 maneuvers from a school that you don't plan on using and would necessarily require lower level maneuver to learn multiple higher level maneuvers from separate schools.

So you take a ToB class level between 1 and 20 when you can pick up enough prerequisite maneuvers with a single class level. Each of those levels reduces the total levels you need to invest in by two and if you're going warblade or crusader you also get the benefit of a full BAB level leading towards +16 BAB. This is also, of course, more practical when dealing with Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, or White Raven maneuvers as those are the three schools prohibited to swordsage.

So in reality, choosing ToB classes prior to 32 is a compression option more than anything else.

[ShadowFireLance]

5. Anything that will actually be considered an encounter for a Level 100 character is so horribly powerful that you can not run combat in the normal manner of DnD.

I take offense at that, I've run full combat encounters at level 500.

[Renen]

And how on earth did that last more than one turn? At lvl 500 you can just metamagic link every spell together. Or just be a psion, use a power that lets you go 1st (you go 1st period). Then just link together every single power and spell you know (erudite). You just exploded the planet.

Also, inb4 ruby knight vindicator and unlimited swift actions.

[Sith_Happens]

And how on earth did that last more than one turn?

Who says it did? Of course, it probably depends a lot on how you count Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration.

[NichG]

Keep in mind that high level play is not the same as high-op play, and may actually be anti-op just because 500 levels of 'stuff' is too much to really 'perfect' the same way you might be able to perfect a 5th level character.

That Lv20 guy using the psionic action economy/infinite power points tricks can beat things that would give the Lv500 straight-Swordsage character a hard time, because the key difference between them isn't level, its optimization level.

Given that I can easily believe that Lv500 play might last the usual 3-5 turns or longer.

[Gorfnod]

I take offense at that, I've run full combat encounters at level 500.

No offense was meant but truly beyond a certain level the game breaks down to nothing more than whoever goes first should automatically win unless the other person is immune and then the other person wins. This happens even before level 20 as is seen by the TO on the boards all the time.

The examples of "Epic Level" and "Dieties" as published are routinely smahed to pieces by highly optimized pre-epic wizards and CoDzillas. At level 100, let alone level 500, you should either be Pun-Pun as your characters wealth and power has all but demanded that you use some form of higher than diety like power or you are stuck in the same WotC "Epic" where 20 wizard/20cleric/20outside RHD is somehow really "good".

I am truly interested in what kind of game you can run at level 500, and I also believe you said it was trisalt?. I can seriously only see it going like this.

"I cast Epic spell "Kill EVERYTHING'."
"Sorry he has Epic Spell 'Immune to all Epic Spells'."
"I cast Epicer Spell 'Remove Protection from Epic Spells'."
"He casts Epicest Spell 'Destroy Multiverse'."

"Ok everyone, "Start a new campaign at Level 1. "

[Lord Raziere]

level 100?

so five 20th level classes in one character?

kay. Sorcerer/Oracle (don't care if this is not pathfinder)/Rogue/Barbarian/Beguiler

because when your this high level, you'll defeat gods and wreck worlds no matter what class you pick. might as well pick classes you like.

Hm. level 500? huh. same config. just 100 levels in each. still awesome.

now I have the urge to stat this level 100 character up, just because.

[Gorfnod]

Keep in mind that high level play is not the same as high-op play, and may actually be anti-op just because 500 levels of 'stuff' is too much to really 'perfect' the same way you might be able to perfect a 5th level character.

That Lv20 guy using the psionic action economy/infinite power points tricks can beat things that would give the Lv500 straight-Swordsage character a hard time, because the key difference between them isn't level, its optimization level.

Given that I can easily believe that Lv500 play might last the usual 3-5 turns or longer.

Somewhat ninja'ed but I just want to add that unless we are purposefully making the worst possible character (500 levels of wizard with 1 Int, 500 levels of fighter with -16 strength, a level 500 sponge) that you are just ridiculous. Even with zero optimization, sheer numbers alone will let you do crazy things. Epic skill checks alone will let you walk on clouds, fall any height, slip through a wall of force, make that level 20 psion FANANTICALLY follow you anywhere and do anything.

I guess I just don't get it.

[Renen]

Who says it did? Of course, it probably depends a lot on how you count Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration.

So the person who had that psionic spell that says "You go first period" Just auto won the encounters? Because going first = win

Or failing that the only tbing that was optimized was likely initiative, because if you have +10000 to initiative then you also just win.

[Talderas]

No offense was meant but truly beyond a certain level the game breaks down to nothing more than whoever goes first should automatically win unless the other person is immune and then the other person wins. This happens even before level 20 as is seen by the TO on the boards all the time.

TO is a poor thing to point to as proof that D&D isn't just rocket tag at epic levels. TO at epic levels will be rocket tag just like TO at level 20. However you statement begins to fall apart at lesser levels of optimization.

[Gorfnod]

TO is a poor thing to point to as proof that D&D isn't just rocket tag at epic levels. TO at epic levels will be rocket tag just like TO at level 20. However you statement begins to fall apart at lesser levels of optimization.

I agree that TO makes the problem worse but rocket tag is by no means a problem of the theoretical world. At what point does the choice between using a battle ending spell and blasting go from the realm of intelligent decision to TO. Even at level 1 we have more SoL/SoS than we need to turn combat into rocket tag without even steping into the realm of optimization.

I am not saying that this is simply a problem of Epic levels, just that they make it that much worse. A level 500 character should be able to do ANYTHING. There is no need for a character sheet. A level 500 character simply wills things to happen and they do. If a campaign does exists for these characters then seemingly there are still things out there that pose a threat. This means that these other things must also be able to do ANYTHING also or else the players are not being challenged by these threats. Maybe they must protect the world/plane/multiverse from them instead. So really they just tell the DM what they do to plan for the attack/seige/annihilation of EVERYTHING and either there plan works or it doesn't. Actual combat will be rocket tag or even worse a stalemate at level 500, there are far too many protections/defences/contingencies/etc for it to be anything else.

With all that being said I want to emphasize that I am not condemning this style of play, it just doesn’t seem like fun to me. If you enjoy it, then more power to you. I like my games to start at Level 1-3 and to end at Level 12-16.

[NichG]

Somewhat ninja'ed but I just want to add that unless we are purposefully making the worst possible character (500 levels of wizard with 1 Int, 500 levels of fighter with -16 strength, a level 500 sponge) that you are just ridiculous. Even with zero optimization, sheer numbers alone will let you do crazy things. Epic skill checks alone will let you walk on clouds, fall any height, slip through a wall of force, make that level 20 psion FANANTICALLY follow you anywhere and do anything.

I guess I just don't get it.

It doesn't have to be the worst character ever. It just has to be a character whose player doesn't know or use the rules that are auto-wins. If Diplomancy is off the table, there's no 'skill check and I win' anymore. Even if you're playing a Lv500 Wizard, if you don't know how to use Time Stop, Quicken, and Multi-spell effectively you might end up with someone who casts a 'mere' three spells a round, and not very well chosen ones.

I mean, lets look at what a newbie's Lv500 Wizard looks like:

He has a BAB of 250 and 2 attacks a round. He has an Int of about 150 and spell save DCs roughly in the 80-90 range. He has saves around the 200-300 range. He has 500 ranks in a lot of skills.

Yes thats impressive numerically, but we expected that with 500 HD. The problem is, if the player doesn't know what he's doing (he went from never having played D&D to having this Lv500 character) then he ends up casting Meteor Swarm three times a round. Or Wail of the Banshee/Weird, which splash off of the fact that saves are on average a hundred points higher than saving throw DCs at this level and everyone is immune anyhow.

Compare this guy with a member of Team Solars, and, well his numbers are slightly higher, but only by a little bit. He will likely get slaughtered in one round against any of the Team Solars guys, depite the 480 level gap, because optimization-fu makes far more difference than levels as levels get higher and there are fewer good mechanics you can 'accidentally fall into'.

For newer/low-op players, high level doesn't actually devolve into rocket tag. You need at least a familiarity with what the rockets actually are and how to dodge for that to happen.

[Talderas]

It doesn't have to be the worst character ever. It just has to be a character whose player doesn't know or use the rules that are auto-wins. If Diplomancy is off the table, there's no 'skill check and I win' anymore. Even if you're playing a Lv500 Wizard, if you don't know how to use Time Stop, Quicken, and Multi-spell effectively you might end up with someone who casts a 'mere' three spells a round, and not very well chosen ones.

A lot of the "i win" aspect evolves from 9th level spellcasting. Bring in a non-spellcasting to epic levels and the metric is vastly changed.

[AutumnLotus]

The point that some people are failing to notice, it seems to me, is that unless you are a brand new player to the game then there is still at least a minute amount of optimization being done by a player. I cannot accept the premise that anyone would play a game in the 100-500 level range and simply spam Disintegrate here, Wail of the Banshee there. There are waaaay to many options for that, and given at that level you essentially know EVERY spell, and infinite wealth, AND have epic spellcasting, you cannot say that that level of character wouldnt slam there hand onto the 'I Win' button frantically while screaming 'YESSSSSS!'.

This is mostly just my opinion and experience in games, however, both from personal touches into epic level gameplay, as well as teaching several newbies into how to play the game. All I can say really, for a fact, is that I would despise playing 500 Level Tristalt. Its basically saying "I have every class, Evvvvver.

[Icewraith]

The only major power shift that comes in epic (after epic spellcasteing) I can think of is that around... say, level 40, everyone has a few levels and stats to throw at picking up the infinite deflection/exceptional deflection epic feats and render all ray spells and ranged weapons completely useless (with the possible exception of extremely large, hulking hurler-esque projectiles).

Those first 20 levels where you can actually get extra attacks become pretty important when the only way to damage anyone is melee attacks, spellcasters are reduced to antimagic or immunity and dispel wars, and everyone is wielding weapons made out of half black dragon war trolls.

[Gorfnod]

I will make a few last statements to defend my point and move on.


It doesn't have to be the worst character ever. It just has to be a character whose player doesn't know or use the rules that are auto-wins. If Diplomancy is off the table, there's no 'skill check and I win' anymore. Even if you're playing a Lv500 Wizard, if you don't know how to use Time Stop, Quicken, and Multi-spell effectively you might end up with someone who casts a 'mere' three spells a round, and not very well chosen ones.

While I accept that your arguement assumes that Diplomancy is off the table, at least in a Diplomancer sense, it seems like this arguement is also assuming that the player is ignoring Epic spellcasting which seems like a huge mistake. At level 500 you would probably only be casting epic spells. I assume that with even a little bit of play time you would realize that nothing that you need to use "Real Power" againist is going to be affected by your non-epic spells anyways.



I mean, lets look at what a newbie's Lv500 Wizard looks like:

He has a BAB of 250 and 2 attacks a round. He has an Int of about 150 and spell save DCs roughly in the 80-90 range. He has saves around the 200-300 range. He has 500 ranks in a lot of skills.

....

Compare this guy with a member of Team Solars, and, well his numbers are slightly higher, but only by a little bit. He will likely get slaughtered in one round against any of the Team Solars guys, depite the 480 level gap, because optimization-fu makes far more difference than levels as levels get higher and there are fewer good mechanics you can 'accidentally fall into'.

The biggest difference here, aside from numbers, is also the massive wealth by level that is likely to include any number of artifacts. This is all speculation but a level 500 character may simply be immune to whatever Team Solar has through items alone (I can not recall the abilities of Team Solar). This is not by player knowledge either. If a player with ZERO dnd knowledge was going to all of a sudden start at level 500, I would assume that three-trillon jillion gold in gear is probably being allocated by the DM.


For newer/low-op players, high level doesn't actually devolve into rocket tag. You need at least a familiarity with what the rockets actually are and how to dodge for that to happen.

This quote is really the only one I have a problem with because I believe that for any game of dnd (at least 3rd edition), regardless of optimization, at some point it will turn in to rocket tag. It is the nature of the way combat in dnd runs. I started playing dnd with the launch of 3.0 with players who also had never played. We learned the rules and took turns DMing. It was not long into our first lengthy campaign (level 8+) that we realized how truly important initiative was. This was before any of us were reading forums, or consulting handbooks, we just all realized that damage was king in dnd and those that inflict it first tend to win. Later we would realize that control is king as it lets you damage without getting damaged back.

The way I see it is rocket tag is inevitable. It may come later if your optimization level is lower but it will catch up with you sooner or later.

I will end with this and let everyone get back to the thread without having to listen to me ramble on anymore. Enjoy your day.

[Gorfnod]

The point that some people are failing to notice, it seems to me, is that unless you are a brand new player to the game then there is still at least a minute amount of optimization being done by a player. I cannot accept the premise that anyone would play a game in the 100-500 level range and simply spam Disintegrate here, Wail of the Banshee there. There are waaaay to many options for that, and given at that level you essentially know EVERY spell, and infinite wealth, AND have epic spellcasting, you cannot say that that level of character wouldnt slam there hand onto the 'I Win' button frantically while screaming 'YESSSSSS!'.

This is mostly just my opinion and experience in games, however, both from personal touches into epic level gameplay, as well as teaching several newbies into how to play the game. All I can say really, for a fact, is that I would despise playing 500 Level Tristalt. Its basically saying "I have every class, Evvvvver.

This has said what I have been trying to say in much fewer words.

[ShadowFireLance]

No offense was meant but truly beyond a certain level the game breaks down to nothing more than whoever goes first should automatically win unless the other person is immune and then the other person wins. This happens even before level 20 as is seen by the TO on the boards all the time.

The examples of "Epic Level" and "Dieties" as published are routinely smahed to pieces by highly optimized pre-epic wizards and CoDzillas. At level 100, let alone level 500, you should either be Pun-Pun as your characters wealth and power has all but demanded that you use some form of higher than diety like power or you are stuck in the same WotC "Epic" where 20 wizard/20cleric/20outside RHD is somehow really "good".

I am truly interested in what kind of game you can run at level 500, and I also believe you said it was trisalt?. I can seriously only see it going like this.

"I cast Epic spell "Kill EVERYTHING'."
"Sorry he has Epic Spell 'Immune to all Epic Spells'."
"I cast Epicer Spell 'Remove Protection from Epic Spells'."
"He casts Epicest Spell 'Destroy Multiverse'."

"Ok everyone, "Start a new campaign at Level 1. "


Actually, It lasted..what...four weeks? At 5-6 posts a day, or so.
With 8 People.
PVP.
Leadership. Etc.

Oh, And Immortals Handbook.


Yeah, Epic spellcasting was banned, simply because people could make a turn last eternity, as a free action.
ANYWAYS, The battles were actually a lot, lot longer, simply because it took days to figure out the other guy's weakness.

Ah, The fun when the Triad Arrived and singlehandedly dueled everyone else.
(For those that don't know, It's DvR 300.)

[AutumnLotus]

Actually, It lasted..what...four weeks? At 5-6 posts a day, or so.
With 8 People.
PVP.
Leadership. Etc.

Oh, And Immortals Handbook.


Yeah, Epic spellcasting was banned, simply because people could make a turn last eternity, as a free action.
ANYWAYS, The battles were actually a lot, lot longer, simply because it took days to figure out the other guy's weakness.

Ah, The fun when the Triad Arrived and singlehandedly dueled everyone else.
(For those that don't know, It's DvR 300.)
Epic Spell-casting isn't what makes infinite rounds, you can do that pre-epic as everyone already should know. The fact that you have to fight things from the immortals handbook, things essentially immune to everything except one niche thing, sorta clarifies what has already been pointed out. It IS rocket tag, just with more people participating upon what could easily be called a multiverse-level nuke. It can be a fun experience, I would imagine, but its so far away from the setup of the actual D&D 3.5 experience that was expected that you might as well call it Exalted: d20 edition. Not that either is a negative reference, just two completely different games.

Also my point still stands, at that level and tristalt every character would basically have every class plus dozens of Prcs. So it seems boring for most, and an ego-trip for others.

[Chronos]

Emperor Tippy, you might not be aware of how the Idiot Crusader works, but the version I was suggesting depends on being at the front of a build (the crusader level no later than 4th, and the warblade level before that), precisely because most maneuvers are unavailable. Basically, you take your warblade level, and pick as your maneuvers known all of the first-level maneuvers from White Raven and Stone Dragon. Then, you take your crusader level, and try to choose five maneuvers known... Except you can't, because there are only two maneuvers left that you can learn (the two first-level Devoted Spirit maneuvers). So you end up with only two maneuvers known, and two maneuvers granted, which means you get granted the same two maneuvers every single round, with no action required on your part.

Later on, after you have a suitably-high initiator level, you take a level in Master of Nine or whatever. You gain a maneuver known, a maneuver readied, and a maneuver granted. Add White Raven Tactics to your Crusader maneuvers, and now you know three maneuvers, and are granted three maneuvers, so again, you always get the same three maneuvers every round guaranteed... And one of them is White Raven Tactics. Take all the actions.

There are other ways to achieve the same effect, but they all require a larger investment of levels.

[rweird]

Actually, It lasted..what...four weeks? At 5-6 posts a day, or so.
With 8 People.
PVP.
Leadership. Etc.

Oh, And Immortals Handbook.

I was in the game, it went like this:
1) Make ridiculous character without immortals handbook.
2) Read Immortals Handbook.
3) Give up on the game when you realize by the rules, you should have the Akashic record (literally the rules of the game because Immortals Handbook is stupid like that, it is pretty much infinite in everything) as your cohort... infinite times and pretty much every numerical expression has ∞ in it at least once (though oftentimes like ∞^∞). Why did IHB ever think introducing infinity was a good idea?
4) Start the game anyways.
5) The game dies before anything interesting happens.
6) ShadowFireLance gets tired of game, realizes how stupid it is, and makes 30th level Tristalt without IHB.
7) That game also dies before it begins.

Even the creator of the IHB either A) Didn't understand D&D balance or B) Didn't intend for games to go that high level, or C) Both A and B.

[NichG]

The point that some people are failing to notice, it seems to me, is that unless you are a brand new player to the game then there is still at least a minute amount of optimization being done by a player. I cannot accept the premise that anyone would play a game in the 100-500 level range and simply spam Disintegrate here, Wail of the Banshee there. There are waaaay to many options for that, and given at that level you essentially know EVERY spell, and infinite wealth, AND have epic spellcasting, you cannot say that that level of character wouldnt slam there hand onto the 'I Win' button frantically while screaming 'YESSSSSS!'.


You know how its good for newbies to start at Lv1, because that way they can get used to each ability they gain gradually? I'm basically assuming that if you hand someone a Lv500 sheet, they pretty much won't know what their character can do even if they do know a bit about the game. The likely response is complete option paralysis - they'll fall back to things they've used in play before, because all the new stuff is totally overwhelming.

And if you ask them to make the character? Its even worse - now instead of just saying 'you have every ability' you're telling them to go book dive and compute how all of those classes affect each-other. I know if I were asked to make a Lv500 character, I wouldn't have the patience to carefully select and compute the effects of every PrC/etc, and I would go for a build that lets me simplify making that character. At some point, I'd just say 'okay all my Epic Feats are Multispell' or something like that.

I once played a character who through various hijinks could spontaneously cast every spell in the game pretty much. The hard thing was keeping track of what spells I should be casting. I know my tactics upgraded several times in the game after a source-dive into various books, even though my casting ability was basically constant. I discovered 'Earthquake' and that flood spell from Sandstorm a couple months in and that was huge - no-save action denial that works on pretty much anything caught in the AoE. But just because I had access to those from day 1 didn't mean I knew I should be using them.

For the record, I've never actually had D&D devolve into rocket tag even with experienced players at high level, but thats because I've played with (and been) DMs willing to take steps to reduce the rocket-tag aspects of the game by not giving enemies corresponding 'rocket' abilities and also giving them ways to avoid the obvious 'rocket' abilities that people would use against them. I can't say I've played Lv500, but I have played up to ~Lv34 and run up to ~Lv40 (no epic spellcasting in either case, but yes to player-researched >9th level spells). But those high level games would more aptly be considered a different game experience - in both games the players would have been reasonably matched against Immortals Handbook threats, and I'd estimate their 'Effective CR' around the 70-90 range based on that due to all the extra stuff introduced to keep the mechanics evolving past Lv20. Both of these campaigns lasted about a year and a half, for reference.

Alternately, I played a more by-the-book D&D campaign that just managed to get up to Lv21. It got a little taggy (I know I threw around a few Mazes to keep strong enemies pinned down), but not nearly as much as people seem to think high level D&D is by default, and the group was entirely experienced players.

[Platymus Pus]

Gotta love someone who just joined the site (august) telling people he can get a lvl 1 to kill a lvl 9999, and saying lvl 20 is only 2x stronger than lvl 10.

Shhh I'm farming them for knowledge.
People love nothing more then to correct others.

[Tyndmyr]

I take offense at that, I've run full combat encounters at level 500.

A. ....why?
B. What did this combat look like?
C. How long did chargen take?

I also assume at this that your players know absolutely nothing about optimization or have no inclination to engage in it. I would probably take 400 or so levels in commoner because I've literally run out of things. Ok, that's probably not entirely true, but I *could* and it really wouldn't matter.

I seriously have trouble running encounters after low epic, and frankly, even at high normal levels, it gets really tedious to set such encounters up, because to make a real challenge, I need a *lot* of moving parts, genning the chars takes forever, and the entire combat *may* take two rounds.

My char sheet alone for a lvl 500 would be insane. Like a frigging ream of paper.

[Chronos]

Yeah, a while back someone asked a similar question about a level 200 character, and just for kicks I've been tossing around a character sheet for it since. It gets... Well, it gets a bit complicated, and let's just leave it at that.

So far, my putative character is immune to everything I know of save for some really extreme (even by level 200 standards) use of Searing Spell, acts about 200 times per initiative count, and has about a dozen different modes of offense available that'll each guaranteed kill anything that doesn't have an appropriate immunity.