Gish Build Critique/Suggestions

[cbaidchris]

So after many posts here I've shaped my build down to something I like for an upcoming campaign. The idea here is for an arcane gish that buffs a lot and uses polymorph for serious situations.
Now ideally I'm looking at
Human Paragon 1/Spontaneous Divination Wizard 3/ Human Paragon 2/Incantatrix 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6
this entry assumes fractional BAB and the acceptance of Incantatrix and Paragon by my DM. If those were shot down, I'd most likely go
Fighter 1/Spontaneous Divination Wizard 4/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
Feats I have in mind right now are
Combat Casting
Iron Will
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Martial Weapons (first build)
Chain Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell

Then comes the next question in terms of feats, I can take TWF chain with ambidexterity which is being allowed and would be nice with sneak attack hunters spell/greater invisibility and a cool theme with teleporting or I can go the obvious easy power attack chain or perhaps a modified intelligence based zen archery route combined with arrow mind and such.
Any suggestions on feat ideas or build changes would be welcome.

[John Longarrow]

If you are taking Iron Will anyhow, can you fit Dodge in and two ranks of tumble? If so, you qualify for DragonSlayer (Draconomicon) which gives full BAB and caster at 1st along with immunity to fear and d10 for HPs after your BAB hits +5. It also gives martial weapons and (iirc) all armor/shield except tower.

If you go melee at 1st level, you should be able to get SpellSword (Complete Warrior) when your BAB hits +4.

Long term, I think you'll get better bang for your buck with either a level or crusader (self healing) or warblade rather than fighter.

With Gish builds, dipping in several classes that give BAB an caster at 1st works really well as they give you a large boost to your saves.

NOTE: For cheese, if you can dip into something that gives you turning attempts and grab extra turning an divine metamagic( persistent spell ) you will have a lot of fun. Warning though, read through the polymorph spell carefully. When you turn into that big, nasty undead form you are also saddled with the BAB of said form.

[A_S]

A few things:

The Spontaneous Divination ACF can't be taken before Wizard 5, so neither of your builds qualify for it.
You can't get martial weapon proficiency with one feat; proficiencies gained via feats are one weapon at a time. Dragonslayer is probably the best way to get around this. If you end up too feat starved, just dip Fighter or something.
Maximize isn't very good for a gish, since you won't be blasting.
You need Arcane Strike extremely badly.
Since you don't get Spontaneous Divination with these level splits, TWF isn't going to be good for you. See if you can squeeze in Power Attack and just go with a two-hander.
re: John Longarrow's post, Divine Metamagic doesn't work on arcane spells, and I don't know where you're getting that Polymorph gives you the assumed form's BAB, because it doesn't.

[cbaidchris]

Ok so for the first build I could drop the 3 paragon and go fighter 1/wizard 2 to replace those 3 levels and would qualify me. any other suggestions? this would also solve the martial weapon issue

[Icewraith]

Expanding on the above, here's what an arcane gish build usually does:

Cast Wraithstrike (level 2 swift, make touch attacks instead of normal attacks for 1 round), blow a higher level spell slot on arcane strike, 2-handed power attack full attack. A 1-2 level fighter dip will give you all the martial weapon proficiencies you'll ever need and a feat slot for power attack. Without those you're just a slightly-less-squishy-than-normal-mage who stands in melee combat, which is a bad place to be.

The spellsword 1-level dip gives casting, full BAB, and 10% ignore arcane spell failure (read: cast in mithril chain shirt freely) and has very easy prerequisites. Your DM must be OK with dipping for it to work obviously. Yes you get abjurant champion later, but you don't get it now (unless you start at a level at which you already have one or more Abj Champ levels) and later on you can wear armor with +1 eager warning armor spikes (also it's still a mithril chain shirt in an antimagic field and you always have an undisarmable light piercing weapon in the event you get grappled or swallowed).

Consider Twin Spell instead of maximize.

Note that swiftblade requires dodge and mobility.

Consider stocking up on pearls of power II. Wraithstrike explicitly ends itself after one round in the spell description, so if you're thinking about trying to get persisted wraithstrike you may be in for a long chat with your DM.

Remember you can buy Iron Will from the Oytugh Hole for 3k.

[John Longarrow]

A_S

PHB2, Page 95-96, Polymorph subschool. You get the BAB, Base Saves, and all other statistics derived from HD.

For a gish build, dropping up to 4 levels into Cleric normally isn't a bad investment if you are already taking persistent spell. This gives you 1st and 2nd level divine spells, such as Luminous Armor, Protection from Evil, Divine Favor, etc... to boost your gishness. Unless you are maxing out your caster on the arcane side you won't be getting high level persistent spells, so this adds versatility.

[Karnith]

A_S

PHB2, Page 95-96, Polymorph subschool. You get the BAB, Base Saves, and all other statistics derived from HD.
Polymorph, as it is based on Alter Self, overrides the normal rules for Polymorph subschool spells in this regard. Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.
Check PHB II, page 96, in the section "Spells That Have Come Before," where it says:
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spell's existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).(Emphasis mine)

[John Longarrow]

Karnith,

Then I've oddly been playing with a misunderstanding that does make Polymorph less broken at my table. Been using it on Polymorph and higher, and it has reduced a lot of cheese.

Gotta note that it is an unintentional house rule then.

[A_S]

Wraithstrike explicitly ends itself after one round in the spell description, so if you're thinking about trying to get persisted wraithstrike you may be in for a long chat with your DM.
Nope. The only thing that keeps Wraithstrike from lasting longer than a round is that its duration is 1 round. Nothing ambiguous about persisting it. Unless you're getting that from the "a brief time" phrase in the first sentence of the spell description (which is only in the superseded Complete Adventurer version)?

Lots of these spells do have end conditions that keep them from being persisted, but Wraithstrike isn't one of them, by my reading.

[Icewraith]

Doh, was thinking of True Strike's restriction. Persisting Wraithstrike IS liable to get you brained with a DMG, fair warning.

[cbaidchris]

Doh, was thinking of True Strike's restriction. Persisting Wraithstrike IS liable to get you brained with a DMG, fair warning.

I understand that there is a lot of possible cheese in the build but I'd mostly be using the persisting for buffing allies but in dire cases the cheesy stuff. It's all at disgression the way I see it

[Firebug]

A few things:
You can't get martial weapon proficiency with one feat; proficiencies gained via feats are one weapon at a time. Dragonslayer is probably the best way to get around this. If you end up too feat starved, just dip Fighter or something.


You can actually. There is a regional feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun called Militia. It gives you proficiency in all Martial weapons. It is probably 3.0 material still, and requires specific races, but perhaps the DM will allow it.

[John Longarrow]

cbaidchris

Rather than only 3 levels in swiftblade, I'd go up to 9, grab a level in Dragonslayer, and ditch the Eldritch Knight. You loose one caster level doing this, get slightly better HPs, get better skills, and you get an extra standard action every round you are hasted.

This lets you do a LOT of neat tricks in combat that other gish builds can only dream of, including casting two spells per round...

[herrhauptmann]

So after many posts here I've shaped my build down to something I like for an upcoming campaign. The idea here is for an arcane gish that buffs a lot and uses polymorph for serious situations.
Now ideally I'm looking at
Human Paragon 1/Spontaneous Divination Wizard 3/ Human Paragon 2/Incantatrix 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6
this entry assumes fractional BAB and the acceptance of Incantatrix and Paragon by my DM. If those were shot down, I'd most likely go
Fighter 1/Spontaneous Divination Wizard 4/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
Feats I have in mind right now are
Combat Casting
Iron Will
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Martial Weapons (first build)
Chain Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell

Then comes the next question in terms of feats, I can take TWF chain with ambidexterity which is being allowed and would be nice with sneak attack hunters spell/greater invisibility and a cool theme with teleporting or I can go the obvious easy power attack chain or perhaps a modified intelligence based zen archery route combined with arrow mind and such.
Any suggestions on feat ideas or build changes would be welcome.

Ambidexterity doesn't exist in 3.5. It got lumped into two weapon fighting.


You can get Iron Will by going to the Otyugh hole, about 3000 gold. C.Scoundrel. (already said)


Before abjurant champ, go for 1 level of spellsword. If you're doing ftr1/wizX, you've got the prereqs.


Have you looked at Martial Wizard ACF? Trade out your bonus wizard feats for a fighter bonus feat.

So you alternate build can ditch the swiftblade and take another wizard level for a feat.
Take spellsword for +1 bab and casting.
Shift into abjurant champion, and get its awesome abilities sooner.


I'm not sure how much you'll need quicken either. A good gish doesn't do the powerup dance at the start of a fight, he's already powered up. That's the point of extending/persisting your spells. Technically, you can get your buffs to 2 days long now, without wasting higher level spell slots too. Just gotta boost your spellcraft check.


I'd advise against going TWF. It's another feat tax you don't need. And without bonus damage (rogue1+craven at a minimum), TWF doesn't deal enough damage to be viable. While polymorphed into something with many natural weapons, I don't think your TWF would be useful anyway.


THF is the easiest, and requires only 1 feat to be useful. Can boost it more if you wish.


Archery? Not sure. Why not just do a mailman sorcerer if you're going to sit back at range?


If you want to use invisibility a lot, and can hand out status effects each hit (or large amounts of damage) check out Spectral Skirmisher in phb2.


If you're going to go for Dodge, but not take a feat which uses your dodge target like Robilars Gambit, check out the alternate dodge feats. Desert Wind, Midnight, and one or two others. They're explicitly stated to work in place Dodge for all prereqs.


For a gish build, dropping up to 4 levels into Cleric normally isn't a bad investment if you are already taking persistent spell. This gives you 1st and 2nd level divine spells, such as Luminous Armor, Protection from Evil, Divine Favor, etc... to boost your gishness.
He's doing wizard, he won't need cleric for Luminous Armor.
He'll get more bang for his buck by boosting his arcane side by 4 levels, than by multiclassing to cleric for 4 levels. It's part of the Mystic theurge trap. Exacerbated by not even boosting both CLs in a given level.

[Firebug]

Messing around with the Gish again, and came up with
Monk 2/ Wizard 3 /Unseen Seer 4/ Enlightened Fist 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1. Ends up with 15 BA or 16 if you can use the Fractional Rule, 17 Caster level (like the other builds, actually 16/18 with practiced caster of 20/22, still has 9ths), 11 Fort, 10 Reflex (with evasion), 24 Will. And a boat load of features.Stunning Fist 9/day, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike (1d10), Deflect Arrows, Evasion, Sneak Attack 8d6(with 6d6 from persisted Hunter's Eye, 0 sneak attack without it), Silent Spell, Ki Strike(Magic), Fist of Energy, Arcane Fist, Abjurant Armor 5, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration (up to 3rd level spells), Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist(not useful), Aura of Courage, +1 damage vs Dragons, Ignore Spell failure 10%, Proficient in all armor and shields and all martial weapons, +20 foot move speed bonus, and Intellect +1 to Armor Class from Carmedine Monk.I am not terribly happy with the fact that the sneak attack comes online permanently only at level 18, and I feel that there are some wasted features in the armor and weapon proficiency and ignore of spell failure when we have the Monk bonus to AC and abjurant champion bonuses.

I would like to drop 1 level of Enlightened Fist and both the Dragon Slayer and Spellsword, but to do that I would need to take a prestige class like Eldritch Knight(or one of the look-a-likes) and to do that I'd have to drop the second level of Monk to keep the caster level up. If possible also dropping 2 level of Unseen Seer would be nice, as Divination Power isn't terribly useful and the extra sneak attack is a drop in the bucket. Perhaps Wizard 4/ Monk 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Enlightened Fist 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 6? And to get into Eldritch Knight we need martial weapons(all) so we're back to needing Dragonslayer or Militia.

Any suggestions?
Edit: More playing aroundMonk 1/ Battle Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 4/ Unseen Seer 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1. 16 Base Attack without Fractional, 18th caster level, Can cast in Light Armor, though we get Cha+1 to AC if unarmored from Ascetic Mage. What is nice about the Sorcerer base is that you can just apply Silent Spell from Unseen Seer to make any standard action spell into a full round cast time, which allows you to sneak attack every target. Acid Orb (not Orb of Acid) from Tome and Blood I am pretty sure did not get errata when converted to 3.5 so it is used as is. The nice thing about Acid Orb (or Cold Orb, Electric Orb, Fire Orb, Sonic Orb) is that you can split it up into as many orbs as you have caster levels, to a max of 15 orbs. All of which require a ranged touch attack, and assuming the target is denied its dex bonus... all can sneak attack. 15 x (1d6+8d6) stacks up pretty quickly, though it is Fortitude half (on the base 1d6, not the sneak attack damage) and Spell Resist: Yes.

[Snowbluff]

Why only 3 Swiftblade? MartialWizard(Potentially Spontaneous Divination as well)6/SB9/Spelldancer1/AbjChamp4.

As for feats, Occular Spell will let you persist more spells by fixing the range. I am not sure if it counts for chain spell, but that's fine.

[Vaz]

While yes, you can buff your spells up to 2 days long (Extended Persist), you're still going to need to make a Spellcraft check of 18+(3*Modified Spell Level); on a 7th level spell (I typically use Wu Jen as the base of all gishes, due to Body Outside Body), that's +7, making it require DC50 Spellcraft checks.

Assuming 23 Maxed, and an Int in the Mid 30's, as well as a +10 Competence item, you're still reaching 45ish; that's still only a 75% chance success. Admittedly, once that spell goes off, you'll have no problem (CL/5 Clones, each with Int+3 uses of metamagic effect and cooperative metamagic).

And that's not including maximising, empowering, twinning etc.

[Snowbluff]

The solution is spelldancing. :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

If you're unhappy with the sneak attack progression on the one build, take the feat craven as soon as you've got at least 1d6 SA.
It lets you add your level to your SA, and that bonus multiplies on crits. If you're using spells with attack rolls like orbs and rays, you can get a crit with those.

[Firebug]

The Sneak Attack is eventually fine, at 8d6 before Polymorph Any Object for another 8d6 (if I want). The issue is that until I Persist Hunter's Eye, I have zero sneak attack. This is because Unseen Seer doesn't give sneak attack unless you have another source that gives you sneak attack. So Craven won't help until I already have enough Sneak Attack anyway.

I could drop the second level of Monk for Spellthief/Rogue/Sneak Attack Fighter, but then I run into Favored Class issues (have to choose a race that has Wizard), and I lose Evasion, 1 to all saves, 10ft move speed, unarmed damage drops to 1d8 (though I'd move Cadmerine's bonus to move speed to counteract the speed loss) and Deflect Arrows/Combat Reflexes. But I would gain Trapfinding again, and Search as a class skill (without resorting to Elf Wizard substitution), and the possibility of Master Spellthief again. And, since we have another source (Monk) of Hide being a class skill, we can look at Trickster Spellthief. But then we lose trapfinding. A large balancing act it seems.