Hardest to kill....

[Chalkarts]

I've long been fascinated with the idea of a hard to kill character.
Just hard to kill.
Sacrificing all else, damage output, spell capacity, all things in exchange for not dying.

I'm not sure how to go about it though, would a high dex rogue who dodges, be any more survivable than a super high armor/hp Fighter, or would a self buffing mage be the best route? Should I focus on the highest saves possible or armor and damage reistence?

Any thoughts?
Anyone else toyed with this idea?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I've long been fascinated with the idea of a hard to kill character.
Just hard to kill.
Sacrificing all else, damage output, spell capacity, all things in exchange for not dying.

I'm not sure how to go about it though, would a high dex rogue who dodges, be any more survivable than a super high armor/hp Fighter, or would a self buffing mage be the best route? Should I focus on the highest saves possible or armor and damage reistence?

Any thoughts?
Anyone else toyed with this idea?

Crusader with the Stone Power feat tends to live quite a long time.

[Lord Haart]

Crusader, knight, wu-jen all get the "invulnerability timer"-style abilities (a spell in wu-jen's case) on high-ish levels. Any sufficiently paranoid Tier 1 character is arbitrarily hard to defeat, but not in the "I stand right here and laugh at everything you throw at me" way. There were also builds combining regeneration, immunity to things that regeneration is weak to and immunity to non-HP damage death.

[Kazyan]

Go look up the Emerald Legion.

[bekeleven]

The best non-full caster would probably be a crusader 20.

Full caster, well, all bets off. Common tricks include:

Make a Magnificent Mansion (let nobody else enter). Then cast Astral Projection to get onto the astral plane, and plane shift to get onto the materal. You now have an extra life. Avoid Githyanki, they make special weapons that can 1shot you.
Simulacrum can act as an "Extra Life."
Celerity means nobody ever gets a drop on you.
Contingency to act if something bad happens. Examples include to teleport you if attack by a githyanki blade, or a contingent true resurrection if you're a lich and your phylactery is destroyed. A living person can also contingent true res if they die, but really if someone killed you once, they probably will again.


Other fun mid-to-high op mage tricks can be found on the forums, such as in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299060).

I mentioned crusaders because Iron Heart Surge can get you out of tons to debuffs and they can gain infinite hit points basically every round if they're built right.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The Twice-Betrayer of Shar is worth a mention: Walks around all day with basically every defensive spell in the game persisted.

[Greenish]

This is 3.5. Magic is the best solution. An Astral Projected Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is probably a nice starting point.

[OldTrees1]

For a low level warrior solution:

Mineral Warrior Dvati Cleric 4 Crusader 1 Prestige Paladin 1

Normal: DR 8/adamantine, natural AC, 2 bodies(each gets half your hp from HD but full hp from Con)
Buff: DMMPersist 2 Vigors, Cast Shield Other twice (each direction), Assume the Child of Shadow Stance
Tactics: Move and attack with full Stone Power
Part way through combat you will be able to use a healing strike per turn

Result:
You have a 20% miss chance.
Any attack that gets past that has to deal with your AC (Fullplate, Tower Shield, Natural Armor, Dex)
Any attack that hits gets shuffled back and forth via Shield other (interacting with DR each time)
Of that damage, 5 per turn is delayed (and ignored by DR next turn) and 20 per turn is absorbed by your 20 temporary hp per turn.
You heal 1d6+6hp (4 from the Vigor on each body) per turn for any damage that manages to gets by the above.

So if you get attacked 5 times per turn for 20 damage each:
1 would miss due to miss chance
at least 1 more would miss due to AC
Each blow would be reduced by DR to 12 damage.
The Attacked body would take 8 damage per attack[3]
The other body would take 4 damage per attack[3]
12 per body damage is absorbed by the (10 temp hp and the Fast Healing 2 from vigor) per body. 5 more is absorbed by the delayed damage ability.
That leaves 7 damage per turn to the attacked body of which 1d6+2 would be healed per turn by healing strike.

Now corrected based on Zanos's correction

[Menzath]

I think a heavy con crusader/warblade would be good. To make up for bad saves you have the diamond mind school for Concentration checks for saves(bonus from con) and Iron heart for free debuff removal with Crusaders self heals. Although you really want crusader to hit 13 for mettle.
Combine with a few feats (I like Steadfast Determination but it's not necessary for the build) to really make your self hard to kill.

[Radar]

Go look up the Emerald Legion.
Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) to the original thread for reference.

Including caster tricks might not be the best thing to do, since those include:
- save game mechanics,
- the so called Monty techniques, which allows you to automaticaly achieve the most favorable outcome for any action via Far Realms shenanigans (I have a hard time finding the specifics),
- Aleph_1 stats through a long but doable series of tricks (to make it permanent you need Sarrukh),
- omniscience through Elemental Weirds or the infameous Omniscifier.


I mentioned crusaders because Iron Heart Surge can get you out of tons to debuffs and they can gain infinite hit points basically every round if they're built right.
Is it a variation of the 1d2 Crusader?

[SciChronic]

Psychic Warrior Claw Gishes w/ a psicrystal are pretty hard to kill. You Share Pain on the psicrystal, then you follow with share powered Vigor to tack on temporary HP onto both yourself and the crystal. follow this up with Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire for lifesteal and you become really beefy. With the use of some cheese you can essentially give yourself full power points whenever you want, something a psychic warrior could really use with their limited power point pool.

[John Longarrow]

For straight fun in a hard to kill character, I'd suggest Mu'Ter

Mongrolfolk 1/2 troll. Still not sure how her dad got a troll drunk.
Build is pretty straight Warblade. Maneuvers to use concentration instead of saves. Build has a +10 to CON and fast healing. Hefty LA, but takes a LOT of damage and shrugs it off. Once you get to Iron Heart Surge and a +10 concentration item you should be able to shrug off most non-instakill situations.

Plus drop ranks into profession, COOK and start serving up your enemies!

Yes, I played this before. Decided to adopt the other members of the party and take care of them. Ran around with a towershield and made liberal use of cover when conveniant. Also took natural Heavyweight from Planar and had a light load of over 250lbs...

[TheMooch]

Saint Goliath (LA+3 bought off)

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/ Ordained Champion 4/ Prestige Paladin 1/Contemplative 1/ Bone Knight 10

You get all the immunities of bone knight, saint, contemplative and persisted buffs. This will net you immunity to: stun, nonleathal damage, critical hits, sneak attacks, poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, death from massive damage, acid, cold, electricity, petrification, fear, charm, compulsion, pain, daze, nauseated, sickened, and staggered.

On top of this you are a competent melee character and full caster. This doesn't even take into account gear yet

[limejuicepowder]

A non-caster option is vow of poverty and peace (you did say sacrificing everything else right?). It's sacrilege to suggest it around here, but monk with voPo and voPe is pretty darn hard to kill and thus would fit this particular request.

[Zanos]

-cool stuff-
Damage Reduction doesn't apply to damage taken from share pain since it's from a spell. You need to get hardness for that. Otherwise solid, though.

[GreenETC]

My favorite unkillable character is a Cleric with Die Hard and Delay Death. You don't die until the spell ends, and you can act while you're under 0, so you basically just smack over and over again until the spell's out.

[Kyeudo]

I once figured out a Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tryanny 2/Rogue 2 build that got nice hp, Evasion, Mettle, and CHA to most saves twice. Some Eberron-specific feats got him DR /byshek, though I forget the amount. Also, between his aura of pain and the dark companion class feature, anyone near him was a -4 to saves.

His damage output was low, though, so he was mostly for screwing up other people and not dying.

[Qc Storm]

Human with Fearless Destiny and the above.

Even when they kill you, you still live.

[Fable Wright]

- the so called Monty techniques, which allows you to automaticaly achieve the most favorable outcome for any action via Far Realms shenanigans (I have a hard time finding the specifics)

The specifics. (http://web.archive.org/web/20070325230455/boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690806)

[OldTrees1]

Damage Reduction doesn't apply to damage taken from share pain since it's from a spell. You need to get hardness for that. Otherwise solid, though.

Huh. I always though that DR worked against physical damage types (Piercing, Slashing and Bludgeoning). Where could I find out more?

PS: It was shield other not share pain. Is that difference relevant?

[Zanos]

Huh. I always though that DR worked against physical damage types (Piercing, Slashing and Bludgeoning). Where could I find out more?
It does, but not from spells. Any damage the attacked body takes is reduced normally, but the body with share pain/shield other on it will take half of that and it won't be reduced again.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Damage_Reduction


The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities

This is important because spells that deal physical damage types are not reduced by damage reduction, which is what is causing the damage to the second body in this case.

[Techwarrior]

In a Gestalt Campaign I DM'ed for, the BBEG's general was a Fiendish Troll/Hexblade//Zhentarim Fighter. He had a continuous item of Mind Blank and a ring of Acid Resist.

Between Mettle, stupidly high Fort saves, Mindblank, regeneration, and resistance to the damage that bypassed his regen, he was really hard to kill.

Oh, and his Fighter side was rigged for DPS and spiked chain tripping.

If I was actually going for more unkillable (as opposed to really annoying), I almost grabbed a LA +2 template that gave immunity to fire (wish I could remember what it was, it was really nifty), and upgraded to a Ring of Acid Immunity (custom item based on the spell from one of the Completes)

[John Longarrow]

Techwarrior, Firesouled gives immunity to fire (IIRC) for a LA of +1.

[Pickford]

I've long been fascinated with the idea of a hard to kill character.
Just hard to kill.
Sacrificing all else, damage output, spell capacity, all things in exchange for not dying.

I'm not sure how to go about it though, would a high dex rogue who dodges, be any more survivable than a super high armor/hp Fighter, or would a self buffing mage be the best route? Should I focus on the highest saves possible or armor and damage reistence?

Any thoughts?
Anyone else toyed with this idea?

IotSV + Foresight. They know immediately what types of danger are about to occur and exactly what to do to prevent it.

[Feint's End]

Persisted Timeless Body ... nuff said

[bekeleven]

If I was actually going for more unkillable (as opposed to really annoying), I almost grabbed a LA +2 template that gave immunity to fire (wish I could remember what it was, it was really nifty), and upgraded to a Ring of Acid Immunity (custom item based on the spell from one of the Completes)

There are some fun builds based around starting as a warforged, grabbing the ability to turn into a troll and get its regen, and then prestiging into warforged juggernaut for immunity to nonlethal damage.

[ben-zayb]

I once made a character like this. Nobody attacked me, and everyone shrugs off my piddly attacks. :smallwink:

[Tokuhara]

One of my personal favorites was a Human Wu Jen/Crusader/Jade Phoenix Mage/Abjurant Champion who could do the Damage thing and also be nigh unkillable.

The one time I played it, the party was 20th level running through a modded Tomb of Horrors that gave no EXP and was there to simply be a challenge. I got to the second to last room (DM has me face a White Dracolich/Disciple of Ashardalon and his 4 refluffed Spellscale Cleric/Crusader/RKV who worshiped Ashardalon) and was finally forced to pop Transcend Mortality. As the timer ticked away, the Blackscale Knight Vindicators (as he called them) were swiftly felled by my kung-fu-nerry leaving my party and the dracolich. I was on my last 2 turns, so on my turn, I moved up close and cast Body Outside Body and on my final turn, popped Emerald Immolation which finished the beast off. Then I came back and we took a rest before we faced the twin might of a Lich Wizard/Red Wizard/Archmage and a Dry Lich Archivist/Walker in the Wastes/Contemplative with their leveled minions. We had a rough fight, but through the combination of Devoted Spirit maneuvers and spells, I survived alongside the Lesser Aasimar (fluffed as the descendant of some NG Nature-Themed Celestial) Bard/Druid/Sublime Chord/Green Whisperer/Fochlucan Lyrist (DM waived the Evasion requisite, saying "Why does it require it when neither offer it"). We felt like gods, and ever since, that DM has our two 20th level PCs as demigods in his campaigns

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fiend of Possession, get Leadership and possess your cohort, or just possess a statue or an empty suit of armor. Your other classes should consist of something that gets personal-range buffs (Psion is good), as you can use them on whatever you're possessing. The thing you're possessing takes damage and you remain unharmed. If whatever you're possessing is killed/destroyed you can just go possess something else.

[Anthrowhale]

You might be interested in ExFighter which combines AMF, damage immunity, other immunities, and very high saves for defense.

[CIDE]

Play a RAW Truenamer. The DM will never have anything ever attack you out of pity.

[Chalkarts]

RAW? I've seen this term a couple times but am new here so have yet to learn all the abbreviations.

[TuggyNE]

RAW? I've seen this term a couple times but am new here so have yet to learn all the abbreviations.

Rules As Written.

Truenamers without houserules are somewhere between unplayable (at low op) and almost passable (at medium-high op), with a little blip of unique usefulness at high op levels.

[Hyde]

My Half-Celestial Paladin Warforged enjoyed a 116 AC and mid +30s to saves, with evasion and mettle. Didn't hit too hard, but put his natural flight to good use with a bow.

Took awhile to kill something, but was basically untouchable.

[Person_Man]

Play a character who is helpful and supportive to other characters without stealing the limelight, and bring pizza and beer to every game. You will never die.

[Gwendol]

Mineral warrior Knight 20? The knight capstone is essentially: yes Death, I know you're already passed the threshold, but I'm not quite done here yet.

[ellindsey]

Pathfinder Monk of the Four Winds 20. The capstone ability is Immortality. You can be killed, but you spontaneously self-resurrect within 24 hours. You also stop aging. I expect it would take Soul Bind or something similar to actually stop you from coming back.

[Shining Wrath]

If you just want "hard to kill", start with something that is naturally tough, then become a lich.

Take phylactery, put into coffin-sized box along with scrolls of Plane Shift and Harm. Put box into Bag of Holding. Drop Bag of Holding into Portable Hole. Contents of box are now "lost forever", so not even a Wish can find your phylactery.

But if you die, you appear in the box. You are a lich, so lack of air is not a problem. Use scroll of Harm to fix anything that might still ail you, then Plane Shift to some secure location where you have supplies to make a new phylactery, re-equip yourself, and repeat the process with the box, scrolls, Bag, and Hole.

It is very nearly impossible to kill you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Play a character who is helpful and supportive to other characters without stealing the limelight, and bring pizza and beer to every game. You will never die.

Best. Idea. Ever!

[OldTrees1]

If you just want "hard to kill", start with something that is naturally tough, then become a lich.
-snip-
It is very nearly impossible to kill you.

If we count Lich then it is cheaper to be a (Ghost template class 3)(Classes with HD 15)
100% chance to rejuvenate with no magic item dependency.

[Shining Wrath]

If we count Lich then it is cheaper to be a (Ghost template class 3)(Classes with HD 15)
100% chance to rejuvenate with no magic item dependency.

I think a cleric of sufficiently high (epic) level can still turn you and if they can get 2x your HD, you are destroyed. Destroyed is worse than dead.

[OldTrees1]

I think a cleric of sufficiently high (epic) level can still turn you and if they can get 2x your HD, you are destroyed. Destroyed is worse than dead.

All undead have that problem but I believe that the Lich and Ghost still return afterwards.


Rejuvenation (Su)
In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.

[Snowbluff]

You can never kill something you can not find. Stealth skills + Dark Stalker + some other things I forgot.

PS: Play a Monk in my game is a good way to achieve the opposite effect.

[Shining Wrath]

All undead have that problem but I believe that the Lich and Ghost still return afterwards.

That last bit means that if someone can find out your secret tie to the world, it is as though they destroyed your phylactery. I prefer to have a phylactery that not even I can find.

[OldTrees1]

You can never kill something you can not find. Stealth skills + Dark Stalker + some other things I forgot.


Lifesense(Foiled by Undead or non Warforged Contruct)
Touchsight(foiled by Incorporeality)
Mindsight(Either never foiled[RAW] or foiled by Mindblank/Undead/Contruct[Illithid Fluff])
Divination(spell)/Locate Creature/etc(Foiled by gaining and losing the Vecna Blooded Template)
Detect Magic(Foiled by Magic Aura spell or Poverty)
Detect Creature Type(Only foiled by not being that creature type)

You can foil up to all but one of these at a time to my knowledge. (By being a Vecna Blooded Ghost1 but Detect Undead can still find you)

[TuggyNE]

I think a cleric of sufficiently high (epic) level can still turn you and if they can get 2x your HD, you are destroyed. Destroyed is worse than dead.

"Destroyed" is just the way undead become dead again, across the board. Check the type description.

[Rubik]

Damage Reduction doesn't apply to damage taken from share pain since it's from a spell. You need to get hardness for that. Otherwise solid, though.This is true, yes.

Also? warforged monk 17/fighter 1/cleric 1/psywar 1. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Snowbluff]

This is true, yes.

Also? warforged monk 17/fighter 1/cleric 1/psywar 1. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

You mean psychic warrior 20, right? They can metamorphose and assume su/etc innately.:smalltongue:

[Threadnaught]

You can foil up to all but one of these at a time to my knowledge. (By being a Vecna Blooded Ghost1 but Detect Undead can still find you)

False, if the Vecna Blooded template works with the Ghost template, then no Divination Spell can be used to detect or learn about the Vecna Blooded Ghost. Not even Detect Undead, which is in the Divination School.
This kind of creature is immune to all forms of detection, other than sight and sound. Which are easy enough to fool.

[vendur]

Lichified IotSV.

[OldTrees1]

False, if the Vecna Blooded template works with the Ghost template, then no Divination Spell can be used to detect or learn about the Vecna Blooded Ghost. Not even Detect Undead, which is in the Divination School.
This kind of creature is immune to all forms of detection, other than sight and sound. Which are easy enough to fool.

I do not know where you get the idea that Vecna Blooded prevents others from enhancing their vision.

A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it
Aka Vecna-blooded gains immunity to a small subset of Divination spells, not all of the Divination school. It gives immunity to spells like Divination and Locate creature but not Detect Magic or Detect Undead.

So Vecna Blooded gives immunity to the Divination/Locate creature but does not remove the Detect Undead vulnerablity of the Ghost. (still worth picking up and losing if you happen to be evil have the 2nd level arcane spell prereq)

[Rubik]

You mean psychic warrior 20, right? They can metamorphose and assume su/etc innately.:smalltongue:My monk build is actually far more durable than any psychic warrior build I've seen, given its hardness rating, which pure psywars can't do. A psywar with one level of monk, however...

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Rules As Written.

Truenamers without houserules are somewhere between unplayable (at low op) and almost passable (at medium-high op), with a little blip of unique usefulness at high op levels.


There's also RAI, or Rules As Intended. Common examples of RAI superseding RAW are Scorpion Whips not dealing 1d43 damage, Swordsages not getting 6+int times 6 skill points at level 1 and the spellcasting progressions of some PrCs, like Rainbow Servant.

[John Longarrow]

There's also RAI, or Rules As Intended. Common examples of RAI superseding RAW are Scorpion Whips not dealing 1d43 damage, Swordsages not getting 6+int times 6 skill points at level 1 and the spellcasting progressions of some PrCs, like Rainbow Servant.

I think you are posting to the wrong thread for this...

For hard to kill...

LVL 1 expert. Profession(Auditing) and Profession(Accounting). Tax auditor. NO ONE will want to get near him, so he's pretty safe from any attack. Seeing as this is D&D so death isn't certain, this is the only permanency that is true...

[Snowbluff]

My monk build is actually far more durable than any psychic warrior build I've seen, given its hardness rating, which pure psywars can't do. A psywar with one level of monk, howewver...

How is the monk getting Hardness? :smallcurious:

[OldTrees1]

How is the monk getting Hardness? :smallcurious:

IIRC: The build uses 2 lines of thought
A monk's unarmed strike is their body, any and all enhancements to the unarmed strike are enhancements to the body.
A warforged's plating is their body, any and all enhancements to the plating are enhancements to the body.

[Rubik]

IIRC: The build uses 2 lines of thought
A monk's unarmed strike is their body, any and all enhancements to the unarmed strike are enhancements to the body.
A warforged's plating is their body, any and all enhancements to the plating are enhancements to the body.Those, combined with the fact that a monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured one (which no other class can get, as far as I know).

[Snowbluff]

IIRC: The build uses 2 lines of thought
A monk's unarmed strike is their body, any and all enhancements to the unarmed strike are enhancements to the body.
A warforged's plating is their body, any and all enhancements to the plating are enhancements to the body.
Meh. I guess that works.

Those, combined with the fact that a monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured one (which no other class can get, as far as I know).
Yeah, and Tashalatora are pretty awesome.

[bekeleven]

Those, combined with the fact that a monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured one (which no other class can get, as far as I know).

I have done this in shadowrun before and it was hilarious. Certain races get roughly this ability, allowing for amusing martial arts cheese.

That said, warforged composite plating is armor, and has hardness, yet the warforged do not have hardness out of the gate. Ergo, the premise is flawed in this instance.

[Rubik]

That said, warforged composite plating is armor, and has hardness, yet the warforged do not have hardness out of the gate. Ergo, the premise is flawed in this instance.You damage the armor, you damage the warforged. You take feats to alter the armor, you alter the warforged. You enhance the armor, you enhance the warforged.

[bekeleven]

You damage the armor, you damage the warforged.The converse is demonstrably not true, because a warforged can take 100 damage in a hit and his armor isn't sundered.

[Snowbluff]

The converse is demonstrably not true, because a warforged can take 100 damage in a hit and his armor isn't sundered.
This is true, except the Warforged can be enchanted as armor.

I wouldn't agree with the case for Unarmed Strike (Ex), since that would mean you could destroy the monk by treating him as an object with a spell.

[bekeleven]

This is true, except the Warforged can be enchanted as armor.Warforged plating can be enchanted as armor. If something says otherwise, it's a RAW mistake, because Races of Eberron clearly indicates the opposite.

[Snowbluff]

Warforged plating can be enchanted as armor. If something says otherwise, it's a RAW mistake, because Races of Eberron clearly indicates the opposite.

Nah, I have to say I agree with this. It differentiates between the Warforged and the plating in the most recent text.

[Daebu]

For a purely mundane character, Fistbear Bearfist is very durable:

2xCon to AC, Con to Fort, Con to Will, Turbo boosted Con through being an Draconic Arctic Dwarf (+6 Con +2Str -2Cha) and extra Con when raging/bear form. Therefore massive HP as well.

Multiple immunities from Warshaper. Fire and Frost Immunity when raging.

Ranger3/Barb1/SS1/FotF3/DW2/BW1/FR5/WS4

Not overly impressive when compared to full casters or monster characters. But incredibly solid and easy to build.

[Threadnaught]

I do not know where you get the idea that Vecna Blooded prevents others from enhancing their vision.

I have no problem with people putting ranks in Spot or boosting their Wisdom score. You have to admit though, it's hard to see something that's invisible.



A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it

Aka Vecna-blooded gains immunity to a small subset of Divination spells, not all of the Divination school. It gives immunity to spells like Divination and Locate creature but not Detect Magic or Detect Undead.

So Vecna Blooded gives immunity to the Divination/Locate creature but does not remove the Detect Undead vulnerablity of the Ghost. (still worth picking up and losing if you happen to be evil have the 2nd level arcane spell prereq)

No, it's not working for me. The location of the creature, or that it is within the location is, information about that creature. If Detect Undead works, it'll be working against the creature. Either Detect Undead allows you to learn there is an Undead creature there, or you're unable to learn anything about the Undead Vecna Blooded creature.
Detect Magic could work though, that probably won't affect the creature directly.



A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it

There aren't many Divination Spells that don't fit either of those criteria.

[OldTrees1]

I believe you inaccurately bolded the quote.

gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it

First I would like to point out that the sentence continues past the underlined section. If the underlined section was the meaning of the whole quote then there would be a period not a continuation. So obviously blanket immunity was not granted.

Now how is the immunity restricted so it is not a blanket immunity? For that we look at the clarifying conditions (the bolded parts). So we see that it protects against spells cast against the targeted individual or cast with the expressed purpose/function to learn information about the individual.

A low level cleric goes into the crypt looking for undead with the detect undead spell. Unknown to the cleric a vecna blooded ghost is in a crypt.

Now how does detect undead work? Like See invisibility, Detect magic and Detect evil, it targets a creature and enhances their vision. Notice that enchanced vision spells target the person they are enhancing (not the person now visible to the enhanced vision) and are cast with the purpose/function of enhancing vision (not specifically learning information about an individual).

So we have a cleric with enhanced vision walking through a crypt and seeing undead. I would think that this would include vecna blooded undead since the Detect spell did not satisfy either of the limiting conditions that the template placed on the immunity.

I would also like to point out that the immunity seems to be granting specific immunity to Scry and LegendLore. (an example for each bolded section)

[Snowbluff]

Location or presence of a creature would be information of the creature. Detect Undead would not work.

[OldTrees1]

Location or presence of a creature would be information of the creature. Detect Undead would not work.

Since the ability does not give blanket immunity to Divination (otherwise it would be a shorter sentence) then please name 3 Divination spells that bypass this immunity while using this broad interpretation.

Also recognize that since 2 ghosts cannot occupy the same location, this interpretation makes all location divination fail since information about where a creature is not is information about the creature. So our ghost does not need to be vecna blooded as long as there once existed a vecna blooded creature.

[Threadnaught]

So we have a cleric with enhanced vision walking through a crypt and seeing undead. I would think that this would include vecna blooded undead since the Detect spell did not satisfy either of the limiting conditions that the template placed on the immunity.

The creature's location is indeed, information about the creature, where it is. If you allow Detect Undead to work, then what's the problem with allowing Locate Creature to also work?
You're using Divination to prove the creature's presence, this is granting information about it. The Detect Spells are all used for gathering information about creatures within an area. In the same way Energy Drain is Negative Energy and can't harm Undead.


I would also like to point out that the immunity seems to be granting specific immunity to Scry and LegendLore. (an example for each bolded section)

At least half of the spells in the school are about learning information about places, creatures and items. When it comes to creatures, there's several things you could learn about them. What are their names? What kind of creature are they? What is their type? What is their subtype? What is their Class? Do they even have Class levels? Where are they? What have they done in the past? What are they thinking? There aren't any around here are there?

The Importance of Where.


Edit: A quick look at the description for Detect Undead reveals nothing about improving eyesight. It actually reveals this gem of a line.


You can detect the aura that surrounds undead creatures. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area.

This spell tells you how many Undead are in an area and how strong they are, it also highlights their position. None of this is information to you?

[Snowbluff]

Since the ability does not give blanket immunity to Divination (otherwise it would be a shorter sentence) then please name 3 Divination spells that bypass this immunity while using this broad interpretation. Guidance, True Strike, and Tongues are Divinations the Ghost can be the subject of.


Also recognize that since 2 ghosts cannot occupy the same location, this interpretation makes all location divination fail since information about where a creature is not is information about the creature. So our ghost does not need to be vecna blooded as long as there once existed a vecna blooded creature. No, you would just get no information on the specific creature.

[OldTrees1]

@Snowbluff
Thank you.

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff
Thank you.

You're welcome. :smallsmile:

[Venusaur]

Ikea Tarrasque is mostly invincible, but getting it allowed is a whole different can of worms.