Who would win, Novas, Scions, or Mages?

[trodgerable]

This is something I've discussed a few times with some of my friends; we consider these three to be some of the highest power level type of characters that WhiteWolf has ever come up with, and I was interested to hear your guys' opinion. Who would win in a fight? A high-power Nova from Aberrant, a God-level Scion from Scion, or a powerful Mage from new WoD?

[golentan]

Most powerful white wolf character? A devil tiger (Exalted) shows up, laughs at their attempts to affect him through his shaping defenses and perfect dodge, and uses their souls as exotic components in an artifact to give to one of his Demons.

More seriously, I don't know enough about high level play in these game lines. I know Scion is ridiculously broken, though, and from what I've heard I'd be inclined to place money on him/her over the others.

[Grinner]

There's clearly only one way to find out: a massive Storyteller battle royale crossover.

[trodgerable]

I know Scion is ridiculously broken

There's that one Epic trait, Solipsistic Well-Being, that could basically allow a starting-power level Scion to survive a nuclear strike as long as he didn't know it was coming. Broken might be a bit of an understatement.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Essence 6 Exalt?

[LibraryOgre]

Without knowing the systems, I think a Mage who doesn't have to worry about Paradox (because everyone already expects everything) is going to have FUN time.

"Whoops. Prime cut off all your power."

[trodgerable]

To everyone saying Exalts would win...

There's a really really good reason the title of this is "Novas, Scions, or Mages" and not "Novas, Scions, Mages, or Exalts." A REALLY good reason.

Also, I'm pretty sure I might not have wanted to include Mages in that because I think a full power Mage might actually be one of the only things in the White Wolf universes that actually stands a fraction of a chance against an Exalt. A low-level Exalt.

[Andreaz]

Mages can get an arbitrary number of successes towards whatever magic they want to do. If a mage knows what he's doing and isn't stopped, everyone becomes tequila shots.

[Yuki Akuma]

A properly twinked Mage can literally Do Anything. It doesn't matter how many perfect defenses you have when the Mage can just roll an arbitrarily high number of dice as many times as he wants.

Of course, high level Novas can destroy the planet, so they win by default if they get initiative and have some way to survive in space (which is easy enough for Novas to get). High level Novas can also create their own universe where they already won.

[Selrahc]

A devil tiger (Exalted) shows up, laughs at their attempts to affect him through his shaping defenses and perfect dodge,

Well, bear in mind this is pretty much how Scion Gods fight as well. Perfect defences isn't just an exalted thing.

[JeenLeen]

I'm not familiar with Aberrant, but with high-level... do you mean max level, like for Scion having Ultimate Manipulation (or whatever it is called) such that you can make whatever you want happen, or Arete 10 / Spheres at 10 mages that can literally do anything?

I think they'd just counteract each other. Level 10 Spheres and ultimate attributes would negate each other.
If limiting it to 9, I think mages would win. Maybe not against a Scion strong in Magic, though. At high Spheres, mages win via versatility (in my opinion). Scions may be able to remake reality as well, but only in certain ways.

[wayfare]

Depends on the level

New characters looks good for Novas, as they just start off so much more powerful than either product line.

Keep in mind that you would essentially have to run Mages through an extremely epic storyline to come close to the ratings and resistances possessed by the newest Nova. Scions are a bit better (being Novas in disguise) but still dont start off with the +25 dice (or is it successes) that Mega Strength 5 gives you.

Re:Exalted: I think victory really depends on how long either side can last. Novas can stack on health levels just like exalts ad can have long-duration soak that may as well be a perfect defense. High level Novas have attacks that deal damage in 100's of d10s, and while a perfect defense could block it, not sure that it will be much use against the subsequent fiery ruin and being knocked into the raw firmament. Also, there isn't too much energy drain for Novas when they use their powers. I think aformentioned energy blast requires some expenditure of power, but I don't think its on the level of an Exalt that is chaining together combos.

That said, exalts do have crazy tricks, and I have not played much 2e, so i could be missing out on significant powers, or charms (sorcery isnt really a concern, as it takes too long and a Nova could probably reality warp the planet by then.

[Asmodai]

I think that if you feature the powers from the Player's Guide the Novas get the most powerful with least total XP investment. There is a power to create a new universe there. It's what Divis Mal did with the Aberrants taht wanted to follow him.

An Archmaster with Arete 10 and mastery of all spheres wouuld be even beyond that, as he could freely edit time, space, causality and physics, but less feasible to make as a character (the most powerful printed characters don't have spheres over 6).

Scions are kinda sad in comparison, they make for good super powered monstrosities, but on actual control of reality they're saps.

[1of3]

Whoever has a sexual relationship with the GM. Especially, Mage isn't very clear on what is possible or not possible with each level.

[Dark Matter]

New characters looks good for Novas, as they just start off so much more powerful than either product line.

Keep in mind that you would essentially have to run Mages through an extremely epic storyline to come close to the ratings and resistances possessed by the newest Nova. Scions are a bit better (being Novas in disguise) but still dont start off with the +25 dice (or is it successes) that Mega Strength 5 gives you.That.

A fresh out of the box nova with zero experience can have mega-strength 5, enough soak to be able to take his own punch (meaning he ignores anything human level), and 10 normal dice to see if he hits. He can't have it forever... but he can keep it up long enough.

It's really hard for me to picture a Scion standing up to this, even with lots of min-maxing. Granted, this is comparing the extremes, but even with more typical characters, nova power is pretty brutal and high compared to Scion.

At God levels, yeah, Scion strength goes higher, and their dex goes much higher, but Nova God levels come much quicker and the cosmic powers will probably dominate. Another issue to worry about is Novas recharge their pool for free and can use their best stuff pretty often, Scions don't.

Current Mage I'm a lot less familiar with, but my impression from previous editions is they start weaker, grow slower, eventually end up more powerful... but Paradox will remain a serious weakness, and an easily exploitable one.

[satorian]

I'm not as familiar with nWoD Mage as oWoD, but in the latter any mages of sufficient power to hold a candle to the God types wouldn't be living on earth anymore. This means paradox means nothing to them where they are, but also that they can't mosey to earth without being obliterated by paradox spirits.

[AuraTwilight]

At some point, the three characters are effectively identical, aren't they?

[Dark Matter]

At some point, the three characters are effectively identical, aren't they?IMHO the settings the various characters live in prevents that.

Mage suffers from Paradox. You live in the closet or off planet.

Scion suffers (or benefits from) from moving from math mechanics to cinema mechanics. It's also assumed that no one will notice god-created abominations running around eating people so the PCs have to step in.

Novas suffer/benefit from what I'll call "breaking the world". The setting of aberrant is designed to handle walking-nuke level characters. You're really *that* strong, and the world knows it, and money and politics are still serious issues. There is no "Reed Richards Is Useless" Syndrome, you actually can change the world.

...which has different implications when we're talking about a walking nuke. You can pretty easily do things that you, as a character (or the game), will never recover from.

[Selrahc]

Novas suffer/benefit from what I'll call "breaking the world". The setting of aberrant is designed to handle walking-nuke level characters. You're really *that* strong, and the world knows it, and money and politics are still serious issues. There is no "Reed Richards Is Useless" Syndrome, you actually can change the world.

...which has different implications when we're talking about a walking nuke. You can pretty easily do things that you, as a character (or the game), will never recover from.

And canonically, the world did break. In Trinity, the Earth is permanently scarred from the Nova war, and most of the Novas have either left the galaxy, or live as petty god kings on their own planets.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm not as familiar with nWoD Mage as oWoD, but in the latter any mages of sufficient power to hold a candle to the God types wouldn't be living on earth anymore. This means paradox means nothing to them where they are, but also that they can't mosey to earth without being obliterated by paradox spirits.

In nWoD, reaching that level of archmastery means you move off-planet to the conduit between the Fallen World and the Supernal Realm. You can go back to the Fallen World if you want without immediately being ganked, though.

You can also retcon reality, which is handy.

I'm still going to go with "whoever rolls best on initiative wins" at Power Stat 10.

[Maur]

So, which one of the mentioned can affect the all-important initiative roll? :smallwink:

[Dark Matter]

Novas don't have a "I go first" power, but there is no upper limit to which they can pump up their init. At this power level, if a nova cares then he'll have basically "+infinity".

Much worse, it's also trivial for them to turn on their "I'm omnipotent" power and then simply leave it on.


Scion... I don't remember an "I win init" enhancement. In terms of init bonuses, while I'd think it a hair more common for them to get an init bonus, their bonus has a defined upper limit.

Scions can't have their ultimate powers on all the time, they're very expensive and Scions have recharge issues.


Mage... I don't know if they have an "I win init" ability and I also don't know whether they can simply leave their uber power(s) on all the time while on Earth.

[Selrahc]

Scion... I don't remember an "I win init" enhancement. In terms of init bonuses, while I'd think it a hair more common for them to get an init bonus, their bonus has a defined upper limit.


Ultimate Dex is an "I win init" power, which then gives you ten ticks to do whatever you want in. So it's "I win Init and cast timestop", except better.



Scions can't have their ultimate powers on all the time, they're very expensive and Scions have recharge issues.

Recharge issues aren't really that big a thing. Stunting gets legend, and most Avatar or Ultimate powers last for a full scene.




I would say the biggest issue with this fight is really time travel. Mages, Scions and Novas all have access to prophecy. Mages and Novas additionally have access to legitimate time travel. If a crazy powerful Nova, Mage and God are due to fight, whoever is due to die can just not turn up. So the ultimate result of the fight? Whoever turns up to the arena is crowned the winner.

[The_Snark]

Scion... I don't remember an "I win init" enhancement. In terms of init bonuses, while I'd think it a hair more common for them to get an init bonus, their bonus has a defined upper limit.

They have one - it's a Knack based off Epic Wits, trivial to acquire and cheap to use. Unless contested by a similar effect, the Scion goes first.

I really don't know enough about Novas and Mages to comment further. Scions with god-level Epic Attributes can add 30-45 bonus successes to all relevant rolls at no cost, forever. There are a few really good powers scattered through the books, including a few Ultimate Plot Powers that don't actually have rules, but in general their ability to shape the world by being the God of Death/Fire/What-Have-You is a little disappointing.

My impression of high-power Mages is that they can do practically anything if given enough time, preparation and a creative player, but may be in trouble if caught off-guard? And Novas apparently run similarly to Scions, but with more linear Epic-Attribute equivalents and possibly more impressive world-shaking cosmic powers.

[Yuki Akuma]

Novas have a power called "Planck Scaling". It gives them a small spherical area in which they essentially become omnipotent. Enough points in the power and they can spread the spherical area out to encompass an entire arena.

They also have a power called "Universe Creation" which pretty much does exactly what you think it does.

Both of these are only available at Power Stat 10, but...

[Eurus]

Novas have a power called "Planck Scaling". It gives them a small spherical area in which they essentially become omnipotent. Enough points in the power and they can spread the spherical area out to encompass an entire arena.

They also have a power called "Universe Creation" which pretty much does exactly what you think it does.

Both of these are only available at Power Stat 10, but...

To be fair, Scion's max-power abilities are just about equally ridiculous (see: "put down the dice, the game is now free-form"). Ultimate Wits lets you rewind an entire scene, with the fluff that you perfectly predicted what would happen and can get the heck out of dodge before it goes down. Ultimate Perception lets you notice... everything, everywhere, on every plane, that might conceivably be of interest to you, for about a three-second span. Ultimate Intelligence lets you basically ask the DM to tell you how to do something -- if it's remotely possible on any level, you can figure out how it could be done. Ultimate Stamina resurrects you from anything up to and including being pulverized to atoms. And Ultimate Manipulation takes the cake, since you just say what you want to happen ("Sarah Palin becomes the next Pope", "Switzerland declares war against Russia and wins") and... it does, eventually.

And the Purviews are even weirder. You become an abstract entity like "the Void", or "the Mirror", or "the Way", and become nearly omnipotent in that aspect, for a while. You can literally become Death, and decide who dies and who doesn't.

Not quite universe creating, but their cosmology is weird anyway, so you might get a free universe when you and your gang accidentally become a new pantheon. :smallamused:

That being said, I think Mages can do most of that, in theory. They just have to roll for it sooner or later. But they'll probably succeed.

[Dark Matter]

Unless contested by a similar effect, the Scion goes first. Meaning the ST needs to rule on whether an absurd bonus to init counts as a "similar effect".

And I agree with the rest of your post.


...Ultimate Perception lets you notice... everything, everywhere, on every plane, that might conceivably be of interest to you, for about a three-second span...Exactly. All of those powers are really strong, deep into story telling as opposed to dice rolling, and horrifically expensive to use.


Novas have a power called "Planck Scaling". It gives them a small spherical area in which they essentially become omnipotent. Enough points in the power and they can spread the spherical area out to encompass an entire arena.Yeah, that. Adding insult to injury, it costs beans to turn on, and can be left on as long as they have juice, and the field itself can supply juice.

At Q10 you're also talking about powers which would mean a soak measured in the thousands and making others need hundreds of succ to even hit them. Weirdly most of the "restructure the world forever" powers come at Q8.

And there is NO counter balance to all. No paradox, no fate, no universe protesting that what you're doing is wrong, nothing.

Scions have to worry about accidently fateing themselves to die (or whatever), Mages have paradox, Novas only have other novas.

[Dark Matter]

Sorry, I didn't see this the first time.
Ultimate Dex is an "I win init" power, which then gives you ten ticks to do whatever you want in. So it's "I win Init and cast timestop", except better.And it's 'activate on any tick' too, and it'd eliminate any 'too-hit' issues, and if you also have ultimate strength you could ignore any soak issues.

Nice. Expensive to get and use, but decisive. I'd guess it trumps most "reflexive" power usages too.

Recharge issues aren't really that big a thing. Stunting gets legend, and most Avatar or Ultimate powers last for a full scene.30 juice per Ultimate out of a pool of 144 for once per scene, and you don't recharge, at all, by just resting.

Ultimate powers are supposed to be a finishing move. Once per very long duration, with all combat happening during the scene. Recharge isn't normally an issue because most combats start with full pools.

Anyone who has powers which last "scenes", or who can engage and then disengage combat every scene will be able to use pool size and/or recharge to their advantage.

Novas have access to powers (or even just basic stats) which can let them recharge their pool in rounds, their powers are much cheaper to use, and it'd be trivial to keep up a running battle, even if they die every scene.

I'm not sure this is a fair argument however since Scion is a story system which handwaves the recharge. You have a fight, burn through your pool killing trolls or whatever, then next week when you have to fight again, your pool is (again) assumed to be full.

[Eurus]

If all that's true, I'd probably put my money on Novas too. Maybe an archmage, but... I feel like they're a little too undefined in what they're actually supposed to do? Anyway, it would probably be entirely possible to just wear down the scion by getting out of the way when they hit an I Win button. Or come at them with enough firepower to force them to use ultimate Dex/Wits/Stamina or the like, then back off. They just can't maintain those kinds of power levels for very long, so anyone who can avoid dying long enough and force them to keep popping ultimates will probably win.

[Amechra]

What if we limited them all to Power Stat 5?

[Asmodai]

Novas. They have most of the insane **** available at Quantum 5. The raw power is either better or comparable to the Mage Masters, but without the drawback of needing preparation to effectively implement.

[Dark Matter]

Out of the box Scions potentially have access to the first three dots, Novas potentially have access to the first five.

A Scion with access to 5 dots is a demi-god with a ton of experience. The rough nova equiv in terms of character development would be Q6 or even Q7. The big nova game twister at that level isn't any specific power, but the "Mastery" enhancement on existing powers.

But going with Q5 against the first five dots for a Scion...

The Scions big power is Mega-Dex. Scions basically auto-dodge with their full Mega-Dex mod, Novas do not. Five dots of Mega-Dex (+11 auto) mean a Scion is basically untouchable, even by a nova with five dots of Mega-Dex (the Scion has some other enhancements to expand on this so it might be available at lower levels but whatever).

That's an amazing start, but I'm not sure where to go after that. Scion powers, even at five dots, are mostly expensive fluff.

The Scion will be able to effortlessly hit the Nova, but Nova damage (Q-Bolt and M-Str use different rules) is far more brutal. 5 dots of M-Str for a Scion means +11 damage, but a Nova at that level needs to worry about people throwing around +25 and more, so his soak is probably unbreakable.

If the Nova has an area of effect power, he'll probably win. Most ranged powers can be made area of effect on a powermax (which I hate doing but a Q5 nova can usually do successfully).

The Nova resisted powers (Mind Control and the like) would be pretty ugly. The Scion equiv of a mind shield is stunningly rare to the point of absurdity, he won't have it.

My feeling is the "average" encounter at this level results in a tie, the nova might have to flee (he pays juice for powers, the Scion doesn't pay for his megas), or the Scion might lose to powermax.

A "constructed" character fight where they both know they're going up against the other... bet on the nova. There's more game breaking things he can do and less he needs to defend against.

And something to point out again, this is a mismatch. Demi-god Scion vs. a nova who is NOT a walking nuke.