AC Buffs

[PraxisVetli]

Hey guys.
So, I'm looking at the DMG and the MIC, trying to decide a way to make myself a turtle.
It lists my options as follows (though you likely all know this):
AC Bonus (deflection)
AC Bonus (other)
(luck, insight, sacred, or profane)
Natural Armour

So, is there anything stopping me from making a Greater Magic Vestment'd (which I cannot find in a book) Robe that grants a +10 to each of these?
A +5 robe of +10 deflection, +10 Luck, +10 Profane, +10 insight, and +10 Natural Armour?
Other than cost of course, but that's not entirely an issue.
If this doesn't work, than unarmoured solutions to a character's lacking AC?

Edit: to further specify, when I say Unarmoured, it's not due to ASF, I prefer to actually be without armour.
Thistledown Feycraft Githcraft Mithral Mountain Plate with too many +5 Defender Armour Spikes isn't going to work this time.

[SciChronic]

AC scales terribly with higher levels. Its best to find ways to increase miss chance.

[elonin]

Isn't miss chance easy to counter? Ghost touch on a weapon or force damage counters or reduces it.

[PraxisVetli]

AC scales terribly with higher levels. Its best to find ways to increase miss chance.

Doesn't miss chance have a cap though? Also, the Rules Compendium states that cumulative miss chance doesn't stack, meaning IIRC, Displacement at 50% is really where it ends.
Are there other miss chance spells?

Isn't miss chance easy to counter? Ghost touch on a weapon or force damage counters or reduces it.
And what to do about True Seeing then?
While AC might scale horribly, such a robe should keep me covered for a while, wouldn't it?
The debate between Miss Chance and AC isn't the issue here, on top of how it's already been addressed that miss chance can be easily countered. We're here to talk about High AC without armour.

[Svata]

you can get 70% if you can talk your DM into letting the 20% ethereal part of Blink to stack with Displacement.

[PraxisVetli]

Isn't miss chance easy to counter? Ghost touch on a weapon or force damage counters or reduces it.


you can get 70% if you can talk your DM into letting the 20% ethereal part of Blink to stack with Displacement.

It's been discussed already, DM stands with the RC, no stacking.
And elonin's points still stand.

[SciChronic]

while the miss % wouldn't stack, they have to make individual rolls for each form of miss% providing a higher chance of failure.

[PraxisVetli]

while the miss % wouldn't stack, they have to make individual rolls for each form of miss% providing a higher chance of failure.

Oh well there's a detail....
And not a slight one either. Though point STILL stands, do True Seeing and a Ghost Touch weapon not eliminate both?
I'm lvl 25, +1 enchantments are not the sort of thing I want to have be my downfall.

[SciChronic]

ghost touch only prevents miss chance from incorporeality , and true seeing only prevent miss chances that state so. Theres a bunch of ways to get miss chance, and not all of them fall into those two categories.

concealment also has the added bonus of preventing sneak attacks as any concealment prevents it. also tack on an armor bonus like fortification so that if they happen to roll a 20, confirm, and pass all the concealment, they have to make another D100 roll to deal critical damage.

[Firechanter]

A +5 robe of +10 deflection, +10 Luck, +10 Profane, +10 insight, and +10 Natural Armour?
Other than cost of course, but that's not entirely an issue.

How is cost not an issue, when each of these +10 items has a base price of 200.000 or 250.000GP? Even if you craft them yourself, you have to pay half that amound in cash.

Also, I'm pretty sure that at pre-epic levels, the maximum possible weapon Enhancement or item AC bonus is +5. On a weapon, you can stack additional properties up to a total of +10, to a maximum cost of 200K.

I cite all this just off the top of my head; not sure where the rule is actually written (or if I'm entirely mistaken).


If this doesn't work, than unarmoured solutions to a character's lacking AC?

Monk's Belt, or levels in any class that give you a Stat to AC.


Thistledown Feycraft Githcraft Mithral Mountain Plate with too many +5 Defender Armour Spikes isn't going to work this time.

You can only put one set of Spikes on a suit of armour anyway, but even if that's out, there are still spiked gauntlets and blade boots and a spiked buckler and stuff like that.

[PraxisVetli]

Alright, I'm starting to see your point. Next Issue though, is the cap. While mathematically, causing an opponent to roll a 50%, and a few 20% chances may technically better than causing them clear an AC, I really wouldn't mind having both. A 60 AC and repeated miss chances will help me sleep at night.

[PraxisVetli]

How is cost not an issue, when each of these +10 items has a base price of 200.000 or 250.000GP? Even if you craft them yourself, you have to pay half that amound in cash.

Seriously, it's not an issue. Trust me.


Also, I'm pretty sure that at pre-epic levels, the maximum possible weapon Enhancement or item AC bonus is +5. On a weapon, you can stack additional properties up to a total of +10, to a maximum cost of 200K.

But I'm not pre-epic.


Monk's Belt, or levels in any class that give you a Stat to AC.

I'm CE, so Monk isn't happening, what other classes do that? Also, most the one's I have seen, it's usually WIS, and my wisdom blows.

[Firechanter]

For Monk's Belt you don't need Monk levels or a specific alignment, but you do need Wis, so that's out.

There are classes that add Int to AC, but usually capped somehow, like "to a maximim of your XY levels". Duelist comes to mind. So that prolly won't get you very far.

With Magic of Incarnum, you can do a Chakra Bind to become incorporeal or something, independent from your class levels.

Besides, why don't you check out the Stat X to Y Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). =)

[Seer_of_Heart]

I'm CE, so Monk isn't happening, what other classes do that? Also, most the one's I have seen, it's usually WIS, and my wisdom blows.

Off the top of my head there's fist of the forest (con to AC I believe) and if you're a cha caster I believe there's a spell for deflection to AC (probably in the spell compendium).

[PraxisVetli]

Well, that guide's pretty epic, but didn't really do much for me. Deepwarden caught my attention, until I realized I had to be a dwarf..

[PraxisVetli]

Off the top of my head there's fist of the forest (con to AC I believe) and if you're a cha caster I believe there's a spell for deflection to AC (probably in the spell compendium).

I'm AFB, but I feel safe saying Fist of Forest is not happening. My CHA is actually lower than my Dex.
A way for STR to AC would be traumatic, but that doesn't make much sense, honestly.
And as useful as something like that would be, I'm sure we'd all know of it by now lol.

[Raendyn]

while the miss % wouldn't stack, they have to make individual rolls for each form of miss% providing a higher chance of failure.

Thats not true, if multiple concealments apply, you get the highest miss chance only.

[PraxisVetli]

Thats not true, if multiple concealments apply, you get the highest miss chance only.

So now we're back to: Whats more successful than Displacement. I know 50% miss chance should sound promising, but if I have a low AC as well, than its essentially exactly that. 50% miss chance, because either they miss, or make the %, and the To-hit vs Ac will let them hit. Unless they 1, so I suppose grand total is 55%.
I don't feel safe with that. While I understand miss is nice, I'd like to do both. This thread was in fact originally intended to make me HARDER to hit, not LESS LIKELY to be hit. While similar, there is a difference.

[TheMooch]

Since you are epic why not craft an epic spell that gives you your desired AC bonus? If you don't have casting you have basically already lost so ...

[PraxisVetli]

Since you are epic why not craft an epic spell that gives you your desired AC bonus? If you don't have casting you have basically already lost so ...

Well I'm not a caster, and I'll have you know I've in fact not lost.

[Urpriest]

So now we're back to: Whats more successful than Displacement. I know 50% miss chance should sound promising, but if I have a low AC as well, than its essentially exactly that. 50% miss chance, because either they miss, or make the %, and the To-hit vs Ac will let them hit. Unless they 1, so I suppose grand total is 55%.
I don't feel safe with that. While I understand miss is nice, I'd like to do both. This thread was in fact originally intended to make me HARDER to hit, not LESS LIKELY to be hit. While similar, there is a difference.

Greater Mirror Image increases things beyond Displacement, provided the other guy keeps their eyes open. That said, it's foiled by True Seeing, so miss chance effected by True Seeing is important.

Regardless, your proposed item doesn't work. It doesn't follow the common bonus stacking rules, which means it has to be created like any other custom item, which means the DM decides based on what additional items they want to add to the setting, and your item, while it has mechanical merit, has no setting merit.

In general, boosting AC as a caster (which, as an epic-level character, I assume you are) is best done by turning into something with high natural AC and layering on buffs.

Out of curiosity, do you have Epic Spells at your disposal? The Fortify seed is pretty good for this sort of thing.

Edit: Ah, you're not a caster? Do your caster buddies have Epic Spells?

[elonin]

Part of the 50% miss chance is already being ethereal unless I'm mistaken. Also, you could have an ac of 400 and you have a 5% chance of being hit regardless. There is an argument about how to hit scales up faster than ac. That isn't to imply that one should give up on ac, but there is a cost benefit analysis that can be done.

[PraxisVetli]

Greater Mirror Image increases things beyond Displacement, provided the other guy keeps their eyes open. That said, it's foiled by True Seeing, so miss chance effected by True Seeing is important.

Regardless, your proposed item doesn't work. It doesn't follow the common bonus stacking rules, which means it has to be created like any other custom item, which means the DM decides based on what additional items they want to add to the setting, and your item, while it has mechanical merit, has no setting merit.

In general, boosting AC as a caster (which, as an epic-level character, I assume you are) is best done by turning into something with high natural AC and layering on buffs.

Out of curiosity, do you have Epic Spells at your disposal? The Fortify seed is pretty good for this sort of thing.

Edit: Ah, you're not a caster? Do your caster buddies have Epic Spells?

Part of the 50% miss chance is already being ethereal unless I'm mistaken. Also, you could have an ac of 400 and you have a 5% chance of being hit regardless. There is an argument about how to hit scales up faster than ac. That isn't to imply that one should give up on ac, but there is a cost benefit analysis that can be done.
I get that there's a cost issue, but legitimately, if that means spending an excessive amount of coin, THAT'S OK.

I uh... I don't have any caster buddies, other than a cleric, who isn't doing epic castng yet.
(Yeah, tell me about it :smallannoyed: )

[gorfnab]

Fighting Defensively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178445) can raise your AC.

[Person_Man]

Dirt simple SRD only high AC build: Psychic Warrior using the Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) power (which lasts for hours) and a Monk's Belt (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk%27s_Belt). AC = 4 + 1/2 your manifester level + (Wis bonus + 1) + Dex bonus. And it all applies to your Touch AC as well.

As needed, you can also add on Thicken Skin, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition, Concealing Amorphis/Greater Concealig Amorphia for miss chance, and various magic items that's don't count as armor, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

But once you get to an AC of 25ish + class level and 20%ish miss chance (which you can just buy with a cloak of displacement), you're fine. You don't want to be entirely "unhittable" - it just encourages your DM to target you in other ways or bypass your defenses. You just want your AC/miss chance to be good enough that you're generally but not always missed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A continuous item of greater concealing amorpha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm) is the best miss chance you can get since it is a Metacreativty effect and this isn't bypassed by true seeing (or derivatives)

[Urpriest]

A continuous item of greater concealing amorpha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm) is the best miss chance you can get since it is a Metacreativty effect and this isn't bypassed by true seeing (or derivatives)

Note that it's not just miss chance, it's total concealment, so most of the time you can't even be targeted.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Do Universal Items follow the same guidelines for magic items? Cause I believe a Skin of Concealment (using Greater Concealing Amorpha) would be extremely useful for anyone.

[PraxisVetli]

A continuous item of greater concealing amorpha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm) is the best miss chance you can get since it is a Metacreativty effect and this isn't bypassed by true seeing (or derivatives)

So this Greater Concealing Amorpha, from what I followed makes me immune to AoO's (Which is beautiful right there, now I can just run about willynilly), and 50% miss, and isn't effected by true seeing.

Note that it's not just miss chance, it's total concealment, so most of the time you can't even be targeted.
Why can't I be targeted? It only says they suffer this miss chance, they can still try, can't they?
Also, Person_man's Inertial Armour caught my attention. However, is there a chart somewhere for Psionic Manifestations going into items? How does one pay to have a permenant item of an augmented power?

Edit.
silly me. Can't target because no LoS, right?
duh prax, duh.
Do they still have LoE?

[TuggyNE]

So this Greater Concealing Amorpha, from what I followed makes me immune to AoO's (Which is beautiful right there, now I can just run about willynilly), and 50% miss, and isn't effected by true seeing.

Why can't I be targeted? It only says they suffer this miss chance, they can still try, can't they?


If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

There you have it.


Also, Person_man's Inertial Armour caught my attention. However, is there a chart somewhere for Psionic Manifestations going into items? How does one pay to have a permenant item of an augmented power?

Continuous, not permanent; you use essentially the same guidelines as for custom magic items. No specific guidance is given for augmented power costs, but I believe there's precedence for treating it as merely a power of the nominal level at the manifester level required to augment it that much. In this case, a first-level power times however much augmentation you desire.

[PraxisVetli]

Alrighty, thanks TuggyNE.
Whats the difference between continuous and permenant?
To clarify then, since Inertial starts at +4, then to get +10 it would be treated as a 6th lvl power (11th ML?)

[bekeleven]

Alrighty, thanks TuggyNE.
Whats the difference between continuous and permenant?

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus.
Permanent item of true strike:

You gain intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll gains a +20 insight bonus.
Continuous Item of True Strike:

Your attack rolls gain a +20 insight bonus.

[PraxisVetli]

Whats the diference between all your attacks and repetitive "next attack?"

[bekeleven]

Whats the diference between all your attacks and repetitive "next attack?"

Something of permanent duration discharges, and is either 1-use or needs an action (by default, a standard) to reactivate it. This is the reason that you can make custom items of permanent true strike and they're cheaper than custom items of +20 to attack.

Obviously, something that has no discharge has no differing mechanical effect. Example: Permanent vs. Continuous Fly.

[TuggyNE]

Alrighty, thanks TuggyNE.
Whats the difference between continuous and permenant?

One of those terms is used for magic/psionic items. The other … isn't.

(Bekeleven's distinction is actually between use-activated and continuous, which are priced identically, but used for different purposes.)


To clarify then, since Inertial starts at +4, then to get +10 it would be treated as a 6th lvl power (11th ML?)

ML 11, yes, but still a first-level power.