V: Disjunction and Loss of Spell-Casting?

[RadagastTheBrow]

Hello, World

The other day I was thinking (admittedly, somewhat facetiously) about the terribly dark turn the comic's taken, and how it could possibly get darker. :smalltongue: Among such ideas as Mr. Scruffy getting rabies and killing Belkar and Roy's dad dying a horribly painful double-death in Heaven as a consequence of some single moment of innocent carelessness, it occurred to me that it might be possible for V to lose her spellcasting ability.

Then it occurred to me that this may not be such a stretch: :smalleek: If I recall correctly, Rich has stated a problem of writing V due to the plot-devastating power of high level magic, and a distaste for True Resurrection/Wish/etc. I also recall a strip wherein it's implied that V has Wish already in her spellbook. (Specifically, the one where V's trying to bargain with Z for 2ed Haste.)

EDIT: As has been pointed out, it was 3.0 Fly, whoops. Thanks!

Then I remembered from what little D&D I've played that it's perfectly possible to lose all spellcasting ability. Disjoin an Artifact, and you roll a Will Save against losing the ability to cast any spell.

It seems to me that this is one potential way to explore V's character: The standard "Take away everything you work for, and what's left?" sort of dilemma. Fits with the "You have to be more subtle with that INT score" thing V has going, too. Plus, with the IFCC's antics, there's a good chance of godly artifacts coming into play. We already have the Crimson Mantle, don't we? Someone thinks its clever to break all of Xykon's toys and suddenly we have a glorified high-level Expert where we used to have a Wizard.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Amusing anecdotes about how Disjunction was treated in past games of yours?

[Kornaki]

Then it occurred to me that this may not be such a stretch: :smalleek: If I recall correctly, Rich has stated a problem of writing V due to the plot-devastating power of high level magic, and a distaste for True Resurrection/Wish/etc. I also recall a strip wherein it's implied that V has Wish already in her spellbook. (Specifically, the one where V's trying to bargain with Z for 2ed Haste.)


V doesn't actually have wish, he was simply spouting a random high level spell out of frustration because he couldn't trade a reasonable spell for haste.

It would be a fitting end of his character arc to disjunction Xykon's phylactery and the Crimson Mantle in one blow, ending the threat from both Redcloak and Xykon at the cost of his spellcasting power. I think it would be more satisfying narratively and really wrap up his character growth if he does this intentionally (for whatever reason it's the only way they can win the fight by destroying the Mantle), as opposed to "wtf why can't I cast spells anymore"

[Solse]

(Specifically, the one where V's trying to bargain with Z for 2ed Haste.)

Not to pick nits, but I'm pretty sure that it was 2nd Edition fly. I could be wrong, though.


Then I remembered from what little D&D I've played that it's perfectly possible to lose all spellcasting ability. Disjoin an Artifact, and you roll a Will Save against losing the ability to cast any spell.

It seems to me that this is one potential way to explore V's character: The standard "Take away everything you work for, and what's left?" sort of dilemma. Fits with the "You have to be more subtle with that INT score" thing V has going, too. Plus, with the IFCC's antics, there's a good chance of godly artifacts coming into play. We already have the Crimson Mantle, don't we? Someone thinks its clever to break all of Xykon's toys and suddenly we have a glorified high-level Expert where we used to have a Wizard.

Maybe it could be a Heroic Sacrifice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice) where V destroys the Crimson Mantle, neutralizing Redcloak's power or something, and then loses V's spells. Maybe V can then be killed, afterwards. Who knows.

[Svata]

Actually, it was 3.0 fly. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe it could be a Heroic Sacrifice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice) where V destroys the Crimson Mantle, neutralizing Redcloak's power or something, and then loses V's spells. Maybe V can then be killed, afterwards. Who knows.
Disjoining the Crimson Mantle wouldn't "neutralize Redcloak's power" in the slightest. His power lies in his superb organizational skills, his broad arcane, divine, and scientific knowledge, his capacity for subtle and longterm planning, and his seventeen Cleric levels' worth of magical might, none of which come from the Mantle. The Crimson Mantle does two things: it imparts the details of the Dark One's ritual into the mind of any goblinoid who wears it, and it protects its bearer from biological wear and tear, including disease and the aging process (though it probably still permits the accrual of mental bonuses due to age). There is a possibility that disjoining the Crimson Mantle would cause Redcloak to age to death on the spot, but it is remote.

Disjoining the Crimson Mantle would, however, eliminate any other goblinoid from attempting to perform the Dark One's ritual...assuming the Dark One doesn't make another one.

[King of Nowhere]

Now I am picturing it to happen, with V going back to inkirius without spells afterwards. could be a neat end, with redcloak not having any more reason to tamper with the gates and thus getting rid of xykon and going back to build gobbotopia.
Of course, while it could happen, it's not very likely. Also, I'm not sure the order will reach level 17 by the end. they only have a few weeks left, and V was mostly left out from the last few combats.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I have no idea how likely this is to happen, but it's actually a really good concept. If it doesn't happen in the comic, I might just dust off my fanfiction-writing hat and pen it myself.

P.S. I found the idea interesting enough to ask for odds in The Demon Roach Betting Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298504&page=11). Hope you don't mind.

[JavaScribe]

If I recall correctly, Rich has stated a problem of writing V due to the plot-devastating power of high level magic, and a distaste for True Resurrection/Wish/etc.
Personally, I think V should be semipermanently separated from the Order until the last battle. Maybe he could join the Paladins' group. They are already minor characters, so it doesn't matter too much if V outshines them.



Maybe it could be a Heroic Sacrifice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice) where V destroys the Crimson Mantle, neutralizing Redcloak's power or something, and then loses V's spells. Maybe V can then be killed, afterwards. Who knows.
Why would she need disjunction just to destroy the Crimson Mantle? Most artifacts are difficult to destroy, but the Crimson Mantle has already been damaged by more mundane means. I can see it happening by accident targeting something else, but Disjunction is an unnecessary risk just for that.

[RadagastTheBrow]

I have no idea how likely this is to happen, but it's actually a really good concept. If it doesn't happen in the comic, I might just dust off my fanfiction-writing hat and pen it myself.

P.S. I found the idea interesting enough to ask for odds in The Demon Roach Betting Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298504&page=11). Hope you don't mind.

I don't mind at all. It's pretty cool that somebody else thinks it's an interesting idea, actually.

[GameJudge]

Disjoining the Crimson Mantle wouldn't "neutralize Redcloak's power" in the slightest. His power lies in his superb organizational skills, his broad arcane, divine, and scientific knowledge, his capacity for subtle and longterm planning, and his seventeen Cleric levels' worth of magical might, none of which come from the Mantle. The Crimson Mantle does two things: it imparts the details of the Dark One's ritual into the mind of any goblinoid who wears it, and it protects its bearer from biological wear and tear, including disease and the aging process (though it probably still permits the accrual of mental bonuses due to age). There is a possibility that disjoining the Crimson Mantle would cause Redcloak to age to death on the spot, but it is remote.

I disagree that there are only two effects from the mantle. In SoD, it appears to add a lot of levels to Redcloak when he dons it, as shown by Right-Eye's reaction to Redcloak casting a high level cleric attack spell on a paladin. "What did you just do?!" " Something I can't do again until tomorrow." Right Eye seems quite surprised at his brother's new power level, and if a low level initiate could have cast that spell, I think the goblins would have fared a lot better.

Now, what happens to those levels without the mantle?

[Douglas]

I disagree that there are only two effects from the mantle. In SoD, it appears to add a lot of levels to Redcloak when he dons it, as shown by Right-Eye's reaction to Redcloak casting a high level cleric attack spell on a paladin. "What did you just do?!" " Something I can't do again until tomorrow." Right Eye seems quite surprised at his brother's new power level, and if a low level initiate could have cast that spell, I think the goblins would have fared a lot better.

Now, what happens to those levels without the mantle?
That's not a spell, that's the Destruction domain Smite ability. +4 attack bonus, +level damage bonus, once per day. Redcloak's had it ever since he became a cleric, he'd just never been in serious combat before that day so Right-Eye had never seen him use it.

[Forikroder]

Hello, World

The other day I was thinking (admittedly, somewhat facetiously) about the terribly dark turn the comic's taken, and how it could possibly get darker. :smalltongue: Among such ideas as Mr. Scruffy getting rabies and killing Belkar and Roy's dad dying a horribly painful double-death in Heaven as a consequence of some single moment of innocent carelessness, it occurred to me that it might be possible for V to lose her spellcasting ability.

Then it occurred to me that this may not be such a stretch: :smalleek: If I recall correctly, Rich has stated a problem of writing V due to the plot-devastating power of high level magic, and a distaste for True Resurrection/Wish/etc. I also recall a strip wherein it's implied that V has Wish already in her spellbook. (Specifically, the one where V's trying to bargain with Z for 2ed Haste.)

EDIT: As has been pointed out, it was 3.0 Fly, whoops. Thanks!

Then I remembered from what little D&D I've played that it's perfectly possible to lose all spellcasting ability. Disjoin an Artifact, and you roll a Will Save against losing the ability to cast any spell.

It seems to me that this is one potential way to explore V's character: The standard "Take away everything you work for, and what's left?" sort of dilemma. Fits with the "You have to be more subtle with that INT score" thing V has going, too. Plus, with the IFCC's antics, there's a good chance of godly artifacts coming into play. We already have the Crimson Mantle, don't we? Someone thinks its clever to break all of Xykon's toys and suddenly we have a glorified high-level Expert where we used to have a Wizard.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Amusing anecdotes about how Disjunction was treated in past games of yours?

its more likely to have V get removed from the story entirely then lose all his spellcasting

[Reddish Mage]

its more likely to have V get removed from the story entirely then lose all his spellcasting

I think that possibility that V be removed is remote given 918 leaves the party doing delaying tactics and V's 20 minutes should be up.

[JSSheridan]

My theory on V's story has it ending after they defeat Xykon and Redcloak.

V realizes the Crimson Mantle is a powerful artifact, and risks Disjunctioning it. She succeeds, but loses her spellcasting and sees it as completion of her atonement.

Elan gives her some encouragement on learning to be happy without power.

[Forikroder]

My theory on V's story has it ending after they defeat Xykon and Redcloak.

V realizes the Crimson Mantle is a powerful artifact, and risks Disjunctioning it. She succeeds, but loses her spellcasting and sees it as completion of her atonement.

Elan gives her some encouragement on learning to be happy without power.

its entirely possible, losing all his spellcasting and returns to her mate and spends the rest of his life as a stay at home parent perhaps doing some teaching

[Gabe the Bard]

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Amusing anecdotes about how Disjunction was treated in past games of yours?

Here’s a fun disjunction story...
We had just started getting a taste of epic-spellcasting and begun researching our own spells. I was divided between researching an epic-level shield against disjunction, antimagic, dispeling, etc., but I caved in to popular demand and researched a spell that gave all our tanks +20 to strength instead. I didn’t have enough money or XP left over to research the shield spell after that. Lo and behold, in our next encounter, we faced a group of Titans, led by an elder Titan, who all had Disjunction prepared. One of our tanks, a level-20 character, lost ALL of his items in the first round. The rest of the party was protected by an enchanted ring that summoned an epic moon dragon ally who had offered us his assistance. Of course, we summoned him as an immediate action without any warning, meaning he didn’t have time to cast any buffs on us or himself, so he basically ate the disjunction for us and went away. He was apparently an important NPC with a lot of neat items because our DM, who usually stats out all his major characters and their gear, looked mortified. I dubbed it the “Epic Moon Dragon Disjunction Shield.”

[zimmerwald1915]

its more likely to have V get removed from the story entirely then lose all his spellcasting
There is an argument to be made that she's already been effectively removed from the story. It is, however, an argument for another thread.


V realizes the Crimson Mantle is a powerful artifact, and risks Disjunctioning it. She succeeds, but loses her spellcasting and sees it as completion of her atonement.
She would be wrong. Sacrificing her spellcasting satisfies none of Soon's requirements for redemption, including atonement.

[Forikroder]

She would be wrong. Sacrificing her spellcasting satisfies none of Soon's requirements for redemption, including atonement.

didnt soon talk about "admitting you were wrong"?

right now V is still trying to gain more power, hes just also trying to understand how to use power more effectively, to give up on having power entirely would be admitting that his mindset of "must obtain power" was wrong

[Tass]

didnt soon talk about "admitting you were wrong"?

right now V is still trying to gain more power, hes just also trying to understand how to use power more effectively, to give up on having power entirely would be admitting that his mindset of "must obtain power" was wrong

And that is kind of the only thing V hasn't admitted already. He/she has basically done nothing else recently than admitting how wrong everything she/he did around the soul splice time was.

[Ermete]

I might not remember correctly, but I think that when you effectively use disjuntion on a major artifact there are high chances to have some powerful being (read a god) attention. Maybe getting the dark one directly on the battle field?

[Kareasint]

Here’s a fun disjunction story...
We had just started getting a taste of epic-spellcasting and begun researching our own spells. I was divided between researching an epic-level shield against disjunction, antimagic, dispeling, etc., but I caved in to popular demand and researched a spell that gave all our tanks +20 to strength instead. I didn’t have enough money or XP left over to research the shield spell after that. Lo and behold, in our next encounter, we faced a group of Titans, led by an elder Titan, who all had Disjunction prepared. One of our tanks, a level-20 character, lost ALL of his items in the first round. The rest of the party was protected by an enchanted ring that summoned an epic moon dragon ally who had offered us his assistance. Of course, we summoned him as an immediate action without any warning, meaning he didn’t have time to cast any buffs on us or himself, so he basically ate the disjunction for us and went away. He was apparently an important NPC with a lot of neat items because our DM, who usually stats out all his major characters and their gear, looked mortified. I dubbed it the “Epic Moon Dragon Disjunction Shield.”

Proving once again that no adventure survives contact with the PCs!

Back to the OP: It would be a nice narrative ending. Rich will likely have something that none of us expects though.


I might not remember correctly, but I think that when you effectively use disjuntion on a major artifact there are high chances to have some powerful being (read a god) attention. Maybe getting the dark one directly on the battle field?

Yep, 95% in fact and that goes for any artifact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm). That does not necessarily mean that the diety in question shows up. They could send a representative (which could also be a rather large army).

[Imgran]

didnt soon talk about "admitting you were wrong"?

right now V is still trying to gain more power, hes just also trying to understand how to use power more effectively, to give up on having power entirely would be admitting that his mindset of "must obtain power" was wrong

trying to gain more power isn't wrong. It's what you intend to sacrifice to get that power, combined with how you intend to use it, that can make power wrong.

Where V went wrong was sacrificing her soul (temporarily) for power, and then while she originally tried to use it for good ends, she ultimately wound up becoming so arrogant that she used it to gratify her own hunger for domination instead, to the point that going toe to toe with Xykon and Redcloak, alone, sounded like a good idea when nothing else really served to give her that satisfying headrush of power used and acknowledged by the lesser beings.

[Psyren]

Then it occurred to me that this may not be such a stretch: :smalleek: If I recall correctly, Rich has stated a problem of writing V due to the plot-devastating power of high level magic, and a distaste for True Resurrection/Wish/etc. I also recall a strip wherein it's implied that V has Wish already in her spellbook. (Specifically, the one where V's trying to bargain with Z for 2ed Haste.)

EDIT: As has been pointed out, it was 3.0 Fly, whoops. Thanks!

I don't think that exchange proves V knew those spells. I think it was just a sarcastic rant to see if any suggestion would get Z's attention.

Basically, he said "Time Stop? Meteor Swarm? Wish???" the same way an exasperated used car salesman might say "How about no money down and free warranty? Want me to throw in my wife and wedding ring? How about I plate it in gold for you???"

[GameJudge]

That's not a spell, that's the Destruction domain Smite ability. +4 attack bonus, +level damage bonus, once per day. Redcloak's had it ever since he became a cleric, he'd just never been in serious combat before that day so Right-Eye had never seen him use it.

Ah. I did not realize. What's the base damage on that, then, that it is shattering (which may simply be killing with a cool effect) a Sapphire Guard Paladin with an unarmed attack? What level do you think an initiate acolyte is?*

*Not sarcastic. Trying to move the ball downfield with proving or disproving my theory that the Crimson Mantle adds levels to the cleric wearing it.

[Douglas]

Ah. I did not realize. What's the base damage on that, then, that it is shattering (which may simply be killing with a cool effect) a Sapphire Guard Paladin with an unarmed attack? What level do you think an initiate acolyte is?*

*Not sarcastic. Trying to move the ball downfield with proving or disproving my theory that the Crimson Mantle adds levels to the cleric wearing it.
Looks like an unarmed strike, which would normally do 1d3+strength bonus damage. Redcloak is very unlikely to have more than 13 strength, so that's at most 1d3+1. Assuming the paladin is level 1 and has only 10 constitution, to bring him from full health to instant death would take 20 damage. On a normal hit, that would mean the smite must add at least 16 damage, meaning Redcloak was level 16 at the time. This is waaaaaaaaay too high to match his inability to cast Heal later in the book, so let's assume it was a crit. In that case, a mere +6 from the smite would be sufficient, as it would get doubled along with everything else.

However, that paladin's mount goes poof instead of leaving a regular corpse. That means it's a paladin special mount, which means the paladin is at least level 5. He has 4 extra d10 hit dice, plus another 4 times con bonus. Even with only 10 con, that's an absolute minimum of 14 hp, needing 24 damage to bring him to -10 and instant death. With this absurdly unlikely low hp total, and a max damage crit from Redcloak, even such a generous scenario still requires a minimum level of 8. With anything close to average rolls for the paladin's hp, we're back to Redcloak being much too high level to not have Heal.

In conclusion, one of the following is true:
1) That's pretty much the most unlucky paladin who ever lived.
2) He has something like 7 constitution despite not looking frail, and bad luck.
3) Rich forgot that paladin special mounts don't come at level 1 in 3.5e.
4) Rich is ignoring the rules for artistic license in that scene.
5) The Crimson Mantle boosts the smite ability specifically, as the needed boost is far too large to be consistent with levels.

My guess is a combination of 3 and 4, with 5 a likely candidate if Rich ever bothers to explain it at all, which is itself unlikely.

It is, however, possible to stretch things such that Redcloak being around level 7 and pulling that off strictly by the rules is technically possible without a boost from the cloak.

[theangelJean]

I'm not a D&D player, but I wanted to point out one story-related thing you might not have taken into account:


3) Rich forgot that paladin special mounts don't come at level 1 in 3.5e.


We're talking about the scene from SoD, right? Which is a prequel book? I'm pretty sure this scene is set looong before the beginning of the comic, which is when the OoTS are upgraded to 3.5. So is this scene best evaluated under 3.0 rules?

Of course there's the question of whether the NPCs/setting obey the 'rules' of the 3.0-3.5 conversion joke (it is a joke, after all, although it's referred to in more than one prequel text), or whether they were created fully formed in their 3.5 versions (which they well might have been)...

[Scow2]

There is an argument to be made that she's already been effectively removed from the story. It is, however, an argument for another thread.Well, that argument would be in error. V isn't removed from the story at all - she's as integral to it as any other character. She also works well with the OotS. She's prone to getting Worfed, or separated to fight a parallel battle... but "permanently separated[/i] is not on the forecast (And largely dispelled by this latest strip). She's still a lot more engaged in the story than Gandalf was.

[Douglas]

I'm not a D&D player, but I wanted to point out one story-related thing you might not have taken into account:


We're talking about the scene from SoD, right? Which is a prequel book? I'm pretty sure this scene is set looong before the beginning of the comic, which is when the OoTS are upgraded to 3.5. So is this scene best evaluated under 3.0 rules?

Of course there's the question of whether the NPCs/setting obey the 'rules' of the 3.0-3.5 conversion joke (it is a joke, after all, although it's referred to in more than one prequel text), or whether they were created fully formed in their 3.5 versions (which they well might have been)...
True, but I just checked my old 3e Player's Handbook and it has the Paladin special mount at level 5 too. On the other hand, it also lacks the summoned-and-dismissed part of the mechanic, so the horse going poof would in that case no longer be evidence of it being a paladin mount - it would have to be summoned by some other means, and I don't know of any summon spell that gets a war-trained horse. Horse, yes, war-trained, no.

[angry_bear]

Looks like an unarmed strike, which would normally do 1d3+strength bonus damage. Redcloak is very unlikely to have more than 13 strength, so that's at most 1d3+1. Assuming the paladin is level 1 and has only 10 constitution, to bring him from full health to instant death would take 20 damage. On a normal hit, that would mean the smite must add at least 16 damage, meaning Redcloak was level 16 at the time. This is waaaaaaaaay too high to match his inability to cast Heal later in the book, so let's assume it was a crit. In that case, a mere +6 from the smite would be sufficient, as it would get doubled along with everything else.

However, that paladin's mount goes poof instead of leaving a regular corpse. That means it's a paladin special mount, which means the paladin is at least level 5. He has 4 extra d10 hit dice, plus another 4 times con bonus. Even with only 10 con, that's an absolute minimum of 14 hp, needing 24 damage to bring him to -10 and instant death. With this absurdly unlikely low hp total, and a max damage crit from Redcloak, even such a generous scenario still requires a minimum level of 8. With anything close to average rolls for the paladin's hp, we're back to Redcloak being much too high level to not have Heal.

In conclusion, one of the following is true:
1) That's pretty much the most unlucky paladin who ever lived.
2) He has something like 7 constitution despite not looking frail, and bad luck.
3) Rich forgot that paladin special mounts don't come at level 1 in 3.5e.
4) Rich is ignoring the rules for artistic license in that scene.
5) The Crimson Mantle boosts the smite ability specifically, as the needed boost is far too large to be consistent with levels.

My guess is a combination of 3 and 4, with 5 a likely candidate if Rich ever bothers to explain it at all, which is itself unlikely.

It is, however, possible to stretch things such that Redcloak being around level 7 and pulling that off strictly by the rules is technically possible without a boost from the cloak.


I just assumed that the Paladin had already taken enough damage that one powerful enough attack would drop them. I've seen more than a few players ignore their damage because they were convinced that their enemy had no chance of killing them... Typically with similar results as in the comic.

Or artistic narrative, either one.

[ReaderAt2046]

Looks like an unarmed strike, which would normally do 1d3+strength bonus damage. Redcloak is very unlikely to have more than 13 strength, so that's at most 1d3+1. Assuming the paladin is level 1 and has only 10 constitution, to bring him from full health to instant death would take 20 damage. On a normal hit, that would mean the smite must add at least 16 damage, meaning Redcloak was level 16 at the time. This is waaaaaaaaay too high to match his inability to cast Heal later in the book, so let's assume it was a crit. In that case, a mere +6 from the smite would be sufficient, as it would get doubled along with everything else.

However, that paladin's mount goes poof instead of leaving a regular corpse. That means it's a paladin special mount, which means the paladin is at least level 5. He has 4 extra d10 hit dice, plus another 4 times con bonus. Even with only 10 con, that's an absolute minimum of 14 hp, needing 24 damage to bring him to -10 and instant death. With this absurdly unlikely low hp total, and a max damage crit from Redcloak, even such a generous scenario still requires a minimum level of 8. With anything close to average rolls for the paladin's hp, we're back to Redcloak being much too high level to not have Heal.

In conclusion, one of the following is true:
1) That's pretty much the most unlucky paladin who ever lived.
2) He has something like 7 constitution despite not looking frail, and bad luck.
3) Rich forgot that paladin special mounts don't come at level 1 in 3.5e.
4) Rich is ignoring the rules for artistic license in that scene.
5) The Crimson Mantle boosts the smite ability specifically, as the needed boost is far too large to be consistent with levels.

My guess is a combination of 3 and 4, with 5 a likely candidate if Rich ever bothers to explain it at all, which is itself unlikely.

It is, however, possible to stretch things such that Redcloak being around level 7 and pulling that off strictly by the rules is technically possible without a boost from the cloak.

Or 6: The paladin had already taken some damage and wasn't at full health.
Or 7: Redcloak had some low-level cleric buffs running when he made that attack.

[Douglas]

Or 6: The paladin had already taken some damage and wasn't at full health.
Or 7: Redcloak had some low-level cleric buffs running when he made that attack.
6: If he had taken some damage already, he should have had visible wounds - Rich is quite consistent about showing wounds, and this paladin had none.
7: That is extremely unlikely. He would have had to cast them off panel at a time when all he was trying to do was hide and stay out of the way, and he would have had to prepare them in the first place at a time when he was clearly not expecting combat.