[3.5] THF Warblade, can't decide on ability scores

[Sith_Happens]

I have a Warblade mostly built for a campaign this weekend and can't quite decide what to do with my ability scores (probably because it's my first time getting to use point buy). Relevant info:

* 32 point buy.
* Human (although weighing the merits of Eternal Blade).
* Campaign starts at 1st level, will run for as long as everyone is still having fun with it.
* Build is a greatsword-wielder focusing on Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and White Raven, with plans to pick up Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Spirit Lion Totem by 8th level, Stormguard Warrior at 9th, and Robilar's Gambit at 12th. Sticking with light armor because I want to stay mobile.

I was initially going to go 16-14-16-12-8-10, but fiddled a bit with the calculator and realized that I could also do 18-14-14-10-8-10.* I'd lose out on the Warblade's INT-to-X features that way, but those seem like something I could easily live without. On the other hand, if they are in fact particularly useful I could go 16-14-14-14-10-10 or 16-14-16-14-8-8...

So many options! Help me Playground, you're my only hope!


* WIS-dump fits my concept better than CHA-dump, and I'll have Moment of Perfect Mind anyways.

[Manly Man]

I'd probably go with either the standard one (16-14-16-12-8-10), or the (16-14-14-14-10-10). The latter usually comes out better in my experience, because even if you're not as strong as a typical Barbarian, who has 18 Strength, you also don't share the sheer stupidity he has, and therefore with less actual weaknesses, you aren't going to be so bad off in certain situations.

So, I personally recommend:

Strength: 16
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10

If you still want to play up him not being especially wise, you could make the Wisdom an 8 and the Charisma a 12, which also lends itself to the glory-hounding fluff that the Warblade class has written into it. Just be sure to put a good few ranks into Spot and other important Wis-based skills, since the penalty isn't going to help there at all.

[Equinox]

Dump Wisdom. If you're worried about Will saves, you have Moment of Perfect Mind.
Skill points and Int-to-X features are nice, but not worth it if you have to sacrifice physical attributes for them.
A warblade needs Charisma for roleplay purposes only.

18-16-14-8-8-8 works very well mechanically.

Of course, such a character may not be a good fit RP-wise, to say the least.

16-14-14-14-8-12 is nice for a dashing, clever, if a bit reckless, swordsman - which sounds like the char you want to play.

[Sith_Happens]

16-14-14-14-8-12 is nice for a dashing, clever, if a bit reckless, swordsman - which sounds like the char you want to play.

Close. The idea is that he's more or less a stereotypical shonen fighting series protagonist. Smarter than he lets on but a bit reckless and naïve, makes up for his lack of social graces with a sort of vague inspirational-ness.

[Keld Denar]

Do you want Combat Expertise (prereq for Imp Trip)? If so, that pretty much locks you into one of the 16/14/14/14/*/* builds. The extra Int is nice, especially if you end up with a Wisdom penalty because then you can drop a few ranks in Spot so you aren't completely oblivious.

[Sith_Happens]

Do you want Combat Expertise (prereq for Imp Trip)? If so, that pretty much locks you into one of the 16/14/14/14/*/* builds. The extra Int is nice, especially if you end up with a Wisdom penalty because then you can drop a few ranks in Spot so you aren't completely oblivious.

Not planning on tripping. Mix of charging and strikes.

[Keld Denar]

I'd drop Int to 12 then, or even 10.

Warblade priority is Str > Con > Dex > Int > Else.

Int is 4th priority. The perks are decent, but until you get to high levels, they aren't that good, and when you get to high level, they don't really matter much anyway.

[Equinox]

Also, you can cheat your way into Improved Trip with two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian without Combat Expertise and without spending points on Int.

[Firechanter]

Personally, I don't like having dumpstats, and I prefer playing intelligent characters, so for a Warblade I use 16/14/14/14/10/10, even though I never take Combat Expertise / Improved Trip.
I also usually go Human so that gives me 7 skills per level, which is never bad.

If you're willing to multiclass a bit, you could pick up a level of Cloistered Cleric (most frontloaded class evarr) and go Knowledge Devotion. Take K:Nature as your free skill choice and you've got almost every creature type covered (except Aberrations). Just saying, so you don't need to have a bad conscience for not dumping Int. =D

[Sith_Happens]

Right, I forgot to specify race as human, though it looks like everyone's assuming that anyways. Will edit the OP.

...Although I did get the idea yesterday of going Eternal Blade. How would that affect INT priority and what's the best kind of elf to use (Snow Elf is obvious, but would be hard to fit with the backstory I have in mind)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd recommend getting the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) to maintain mobility with the best medium armor you can get. Its drawback is easy to handle with d12 HD, and you can even get Improved Toughness to negate it (basically spending a feat for the speed bonus).

If you plan on dipping Barbarian for the Lion Spirit ACF, be sure to make it Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) and get two levels for Improved Trip so you can get Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). Also swap Rage for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and pick up Extra Rage if you get any spare feats. If you take those before Warblade 4 then your initiator level will be high enough to get a 3rd level stance at that level.


Right, I forgot to specify race as human, though it looks like everyone's assuming that anyways. Will edit the OP.

...Although I did get the idea yesterday of going Eternal Blade. How would that affect INT priority and what's the best kind of elf to use (Snow Elf is obvious, but would be hard to fit with the backstory I have in mind)?

I'd go with a Magic-Blooded Wood Elf, for Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha +2. It works quite well for something like 16-14-16-14-8-8, which ends up at 18-16-14-12-6-10 after racial adjustments.

[Person_Man]

Given a 32 point buy Warblade, my suggestion is 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. I suggest Warforged (+2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Slam, immunities), Neraphim (Neraph Camouflage, +2 Natural Armor, darkvision, +5 Jump), Dragonborn Mongrelfolk (+6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -4 Cha, dragonborn abilities), Dragonborn Water Orc (+4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Swim, darkvision, light sensitivity).


In general though, you want to focus on the statistics that are used most often. In 3.5 D&D, that is almost always hit points, to-hit, AC, and occasionally opposed checks and saving throws.

Hit points are pretty much universally important for every build, and Fort Saves can occasionally be important, so Con should usually be your highest or second highest attribute.

If you care most about to-hit, AC, and your Reflex save or you want to use a build that will legitimately have 4+ attacks of opportunity per round, then your first or second highest attribute should be Dex. (Assuming that the character will eventually get to a level where the difference between your Str and Dex makes spending a Feat on Weapon Finesse worthwhile, say +5ish or higher)

If you care most about to-hit and will be making opposed checks (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple) most rounds, then your first or second highest attribute should be Str (and you should buy good armor).

If you want to use maneuvers that require a Save, then you'll need decent or high Int. This can be worked around (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), but it's expensive for a Warblade to do so.

[Equinox]

If you want to use maneuvers that require a Save, then you'll need decent or high Int. This can be worked around (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), but it's expensive for a Warblade to do so.AFB right now, but I distinctly remember the Warblade maneuver saves are STR-based. Am I wrong?

[Firechanter]

Given a 32 point buy Warblade, my suggestion is 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. I suggest Warforged (+2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Slam, immunities), Neraphim (Neraph Camouflage, +2 Natural Armor, darkvision, +5 Jump), Dragonborn Mongrelfolk (+6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -4 Cha, dragonborn abilities), Dragonborn Water Orc (+4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, Swim, darkvision, light sensitivity).


Just out of curiosity, do you, yourself, _really_ play that way? Like, a character with starting stats like 18/12/22/6/8/4?


AFB right now, but I distinctly remember the Warblade maneuver saves are STR-based. Am I wrong?

They are.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Close. The idea is that he's more or less a stereotypical shonen fighting series protagonist. Smarter than he lets on but a bit reckless and naïve, makes up for his lack of social graces with a sort of vague inspirational-ness.Then swap the Cha and Wisdom?

[Sith_Happens]

While this campaign would probably be a perfect one to play a more exotic race, my concept really only fits a human or elf (at least in my mind).


I'd go with a Magic-Blooded Wood Elf, for Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha +2. It works quite well for something like 16-14-16-14-8-8, which ends up at 18-16-14-12-6-10 after racial adjustments.

I don't have the source for Magic-Blooded (it's in a Dragon Mag, right?), but even if I did, I'm not seeing what Wis -2, Cha +2 is supposed to achieve on a Warblade.:smallconfused:

Also, if it changes things at all, I'm pretty sure the DM will allow odd-numbered enhancement-to-ability-score items. So I could put an odd score in something and it would be 1000 gp away from being an even score.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't have the source for Magic-Blooded (it's in a Dragon Mag, right?), but even if I did, I'm not seeing what Wis -2, Cha +2 is supposed to achieve on a Warblade.:smallconfused:

You wanted to dump Wis and not Cha, so Magic-Blooded keeps Cha at 10. That was the only reason I suggested it.

[Sith_Happens]

You wanted to dump Wis and not Cha, so Magic-Blooded keeps Cha at 10. That was the only reason I suggested it.

Can't you drop scores below 8 for a few extra points anyways?

[Daebu]

While this campaign would probably be a perfect one to play a more exotic race, my concept really only fits a human or elf (at least in my mind).


How about Draconic Human? If LA buyoff isn't available it might be somewhat painful. If it is available then you'll recover the XP rather quickly. Now you've just added to your two most important stats, Darkvision and associated perks, built your Cha up from being dumped, given your DM some plot hooks, and your character will have natural force of personality.

I'm a skill junkie, and love having a little extra freedom to choose. Since Warblade works naturally with Int anyway, I'd say don't dump it. I'd personally use 16/14/14/14/10/10, with Draconic that gets bumped to the sexy 18/14/16/14/10/12. If you want to play up his recklessness (low Wis) or don't need as much Cha, dump them completely for the after-Draconic adjustment of 18/14/18/14/8/10.

Eternal Blade is fantastic, but you don't get your best trick til 20. Warblade has the advantage of being able to trade maneuvers, in addition to the new ones added. This results in a much stronger list of maneuvers than the EB will have. As you're going to be a leap attack type, TC will have better returns for you than DS will as well. Stick with Warblade.

Lastly, I always plug UA's bloodlines if someone is going for a martial initiator. Bloodlines, even without ridiculous interpretations, have very favourable effects on initiator level. This in turn tends to allow initiators to multiclass a little more freely.

[Sith_Happens]

Eternal Blade is fantastic, but you don't get your best trick til 20. Warblade has the advantage of being able to trade maneuvers, in addition to the new ones added. This results in a much stronger list of maneuvers than the EB will have. As you're going to be a leap attack type, TC will have better returns for you than DS will as well. Stick with Warblade.

I forgot about prestige classes not having maneuver-swap. That quite handily screws over my carefully-crafted progression. Which is fine, because I just read over the "Elf Psychology" section in Races of the Wild and it really doesn't fit my concept anyways. Human it is.

Leaning between 16/14/14/14/10/10 and 16/14/16/12/8/10 right now. Mainly weighing the extra hit points vs. the extra point of Battle Whatever (Cunning and Mastery seem relevant to my build and Clarity is always nice to have). The extra skill points on the former would be nice too, of course.

Forgot about Draconic, will call it a maybe for now.