Looking for ways to lower will saves

[molten_dragon]

I'm going to be playing a Psion (telepath)/thrallherd in an upcoming campaign that'll go up to 20th level. I intend to have some fun at high levels with mind seed and true mind switch, but because of the high XP costs, I want to do my best to insure that my target will fail their save. So what options are available (psionic options are best, but magic options can be considered) to lower someone's will saves, preferably ones that don't themselves allow a will save.

[BowStreetRunner]

Don't know of any psionic options.

Mind Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindFog.htm) is great.

[Quiddle]

You could use a Thought Bottle to negate the exp losses.

[molten_dragon]

Don't know of any psionic options.

Mind Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindFog.htm) is great.

Yeah, I thought of that but it allows a will save itself.

[molten_dragon]

You could use a Thought Bottle to negate the exp losses.

I don't think my DM will allow that.

So far the best option I've come up with is negative levels since they apply a penalty to saves and don't allow a save themselves.

[John Longarrow]

Open a bar. Serve STRONG DRINKS. Have a lady's night and host hero's (free drinks) after they've finished hard quests!

If you can get them drunk and concentrating on the pretty lady/lad next to them, their will save should be in the toilet, along with their dinner. :smallcool:

[Dairuga]

The best option for you, if you do not mind having a bit of a frowned-upon heritage, would be to take the Unseelie Fey template. The template is, on a whole, a bit unbalanced; giving just as many stats as it takes (-2 to STR and Con, +2 to Dex and Cha), has the possibility of granting dark-vision, low-light vision, Blindsight (At the cost of your eyes), and even grant you -wings-.

The main feature, however, is that you get to choose one of the four seasons to be your primary aspect.

The winter season's power: Winter's Chill. You radiate an Aura of 5 feet, that makes everyone in adjacent squares suffer a penalty to all saves equal to your Cha modifier.

The Unseelie Fey template can be found in the Dragon Compendium, or by googling "Unseelie Fey template" and take one of the first options.

[Fouredged Sword]

A paladin of tyranny / evangelist thrall will help. He can lower the save of a target by -5 or so with no save or aggressive action.

Apply some fear effect. Fell frighten magic missile has no save and slaps on another -2. Sicken effects also hurt saves.

Wis damage is good.

[Mnemnosyne]

Bestow Greater Curse, while it allows a will save itself, can drop one of a target's ability scores to 1. Use it on wisdom, and it not only removes any positive modifier, but sets a negative modifier as well.

Another good spell to use is limited wish, or in a psions case, bend reality. If you're burning a bunch of xp anyway, an extra 300 to reduce their saves by an untyped -8 that stacks on top of every other save reducer isnt a bad idea.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I second the Pally of Tyrany thrall, make him take levels in a class that grants sneak attack (Blackguard would be nice, but it's auras don't stack) so he take sickening strike (yet another debuff), if possible your level 4 followers should be Hexblades with the Shadowy companion ACF from the PHB II, it is a no-save-2 debuff.

[Arc_knight25]

Coercive Spell is a metamagic feat with an increase of 1 level.
Needs to do damage to a living target and gives a -2 Will save for 3 rounds.

Its in Drow of the Underdark.

[Arc_knight25]

Arcane thesis Magic Missile. Coercive Spell (0), Fell Drain(1), Fell Frighten(1)

For the cost of a lvl 3 spell you give them -2 will for 3 rounds, 1 negative level, and shaken.

I beleive that is a net of -5 to their will save.

At later levels throw it in as a quickened spell (lvl 6 spell slot).

I do realise that its not psionic, but it is away to get those negative will saves.

[Deophaun]

If you have the dragonblood subtype, the Barbs of Retribution from MIC can have you force an enemy to re-roll a save with a -5 penalty.

[molten_dragon]

Thanks for all the ideas so far guys.


Arcane thesis Magic Missile. Coercive Spell (0), Fell Drain(1), Fell Frighten(1)

For the cost of a lvl 3 spell you give them -2 will for 3 rounds, 1 negative level, and shaken.

I beleive that is a net of -5 to their will save.

At later levels throw it in as a quickened spell (lvl 6 spell slot).

I do realise that its not psionic, but it is away to get those negative will saves.

Unfortunately my only way to get access to arcane spells is through UMD (the DM has specified no full casters as thralls), so the coercive fell drain fell frighten magic missile will be pretty hard to pull off.


I second the Pally of Tyrany thrall, make him take levels in a class that grants sneak attack (Blackguard would be nice, but it's auras don't stack) so he take sickening strike (yet another debuff), if possible your level 4 followers should be Hexblades with the Shadowy companion ACF from the PHB II, it is a no-save-2 debuff.

I may consider the paladin of tyranny. My first thrall was going to be a crusader/cleric/ruby knight vindicator, but the paladin of tyranny might be pretty good too.


Coercive Spell is a metamagic feat with an increase of 1 level.
Needs to do damage to a living target and gives a -2 Will save for 3 rounds.

Its in Drow of the Underdark.

I definitely like that. I'll have to have one of my thralls pick it up.


Apply some fear effect. Fell frighten magic missile has no save and slaps on another -2. Sicken effects also hurt saves.

That's a good idea too, I think there are a couple spells that leave you shaken even if you make the save.


The best option for you, if you do not mind having a bit of a frowned-upon heritage, would be to take the Unseelie Fey template. The template is, on a whole, a bit unbalanced; giving just as many stats as it takes (-2 to STR and Con, +2 to Dex and Cha), has the possibility of granting dark-vision, low-light vision, Blindsight (At the cost of your eyes), and even grant you -wings-.

The main feature, however, is that you get to choose one of the four seasons to be your primary aspect.

The winter season's power: Winter's Chill. You radiate an Aura of 5 feet, that makes everyone in adjacent squares suffer a penalty to all saves equal to your Cha modifier.

The Unseelie Fey template can be found in the Dragon Compendium, or by googling "Unseelie Fey template" and take one of the first options.

Cool idea, but unfortunately the DM doesn't allow stuff from dragon magazine.

[lsfreak]

I second the Pally of Tyrany thrall, make him take levels in a class that grants sneak attack (Blackguard would be nice, but it's auras don't stack) so he take sickening strike (yet another debuff), if possible your level 4 followers should be Hexblades with the Shadowy companion ACF from the PHB II, it is a no-save-2 debuff.

Add in a couple binder feats from ToM, get Focalor's Aura of Sadness for another -2. Or just a binder of at least 3rd level + Improved Binding feat, since binders are nice to have around anyways.