Disintegrate: A Motif?

[Gift Jeraff]

I've noticed that Disintegrate has a tendency to crop up during significant plot events, particularly those relating to V or Redcloak. Do you think this was intentional?


The Rise and Fall of Darth Vaarsuvius:
#186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html): V plants the seeds for the Ancient Black Dragon's revenge
#437 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html): V's failure to defend Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) (including his/her inability to defeat the death knight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)) played a big role in V's descent to madness (I'll admit this one's a stretch, but I'm including it for completion's sake)
#595 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
#625 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html)
#626 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html)
#636 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)/#637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)
#640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)
#653 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html): When Disintegrate fails, the Soul Splice ends



Redcloak:
In Start of Darkness (major spoilers)Redcloak casts Disintegrate to kill Right-Eye
#480 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html): Redcloak's conquest of Azure City is complete, as the new leader topples the old
#655 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html): As with Darth V, when it fails to do any significant damage, so too does the caster fail (losing the phylactery and becoming Wrong-Eye)
#831 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html): Redcloak begins his fauxlactery scheme
#900 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html): Again, we have the "failure" of the spell (though Roy seems to have failed his Fortitude save, it didn't lead to his defeat or anything) and the caster's failure to capture a Gate and control Xykon (this one's a stretch, too)



Other:
#200 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)/#201 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html): #200 and Miko's introduction was obviously meant to be a Big Deal that dramatically changed the course of the Order's adventure
#914 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html): Laurin uses Psionic Disintegrate to lay the final Nale in the coffin



What does it all mean???

[Excise]

Outside of the fact that disintegrate a powerful spell and thus likely to be used in serious situations, I don't think there's any motif going on.

[Siosilvar]

What does it all mean???

That 6th-level combat spells that are easy to draw are fairly rare.

[Talvereaux]

I think it's more of a practical thing than a metaphorical thing.

You don't cast it unless you're trying to destroy someone completely and deny them a chance to be revived. There's also the element of the spell treating a corpse--depending on the situation or context, it can be a gesture of desecration (denying them a proper burial) or reverence (sending them off through cremation).

It's kind of a severe spell, so it's mainly used in severe situations, and usually by morally dubious characters.

[martianmister]

What does it all mean???

Redcloak X Vaarsuvius = OTP!

[RadagastTheBrow]

Perhaps it's related to the "Magic Can Solve Anything" problem. "Why didn't Wizard do A to kill B?" "If Author wanted B to die, Disintegrate would have worked." A "failed" Disintegration indicates that Character B isn't set to die yet. Likewise, a "successful" Disintegration indicates that Character B is dead, end of arc.

So, Kubota: Dead. Very, very dead. Also gave us some nice characterization for V.

Roy, this arc: Not so dead. Probably won't die.

Redcloak, end of Azure City arc: Not dead. High Cleric of the Sapphire Guild, and presence in Azure City he represents: Dead.

O-Chul: Survives multiple Disintegrates. Very, very clearly not dead yet, likely to come back.

Nale: This one's kinda wiggy. If I'm right, which I might not be, then we won't see any more from him for the story. On the other hand, I'm not sure that Nale doesn't have any more characterization for Rich to show. On a weird mutated third hand that just popped up, perhaps the "forced" Disintegration is similar to Tarquin's attempt at "forcing" the narrative to bend to his will, but the plot can't be tricked like that...

Narratively speaking, surviving Disintegrate is more powerful than having a name: It's the Plot's way of saying "You're not done yet."

Maybe.

That, or the Giant really likes taking things' derivatives.

[Lord Raziere]

well you could say that Disintegrate is representative of cold, calculating ruthlessness and efficiency, given that both V and Redcloak are highly logical people, and are therefore the kind of people who choose such a spell. not a motif, but its definitely a way to show similarities in characters.

[Muenster Man]

Narratively speaking, surviving Disintegrate is more powerful than having a name: It's the Plot's way of saying "You're not done yet."

Maybe.

That, or the Giant really likes taking things' derivatives.

I like it and this thread, but what kind of time limit would you give for how much longer they live? Of course if someone lives through it then they're not dead, and thus not "done yet," but I'm not sure if it's necessarily giving them plot armor. Yes, O-Chul survived a lot, but I can't imagine that would mean that O-Chul's next assignment does not put him in serious mortal danger from Xykon.

[MReav]

A successful Disintegrate spell does some of the best damage in the game, 2d6 instead of 1d6 per level. It's a Fortitude save that can affect objects, meaning it can hit undead and constructs, both of whom have crummy Fort Saves.

It's no more significant than Durkon using Thor's Might.

[KillianHawkeye]

What makes you think Roy failed his save against Redcloak's disintegrate spell? :smallconfused:

I'm pretty sure that even Roy can't survive 34d6 damage unless Redcloak rolled absolutely terribly.

[Muenster Man]

What makes you think Roy failed his save against Redcloak's disintegrate spell? :smallconfused:

I'm pretty sure that even Roy can't survive 34d6 damage unless Redcloak rolled absolutely terribly.

It averages at 119 points of damage if my math is correct. Roy could probably take it, even if it would put him close to single digits. But I agree that he likely saved through it, as a fighter he likely has a good fort save and the wounds he received don't look close to fatal.

[RadagastTheBrow]

I like it and this thread, but what kind of time limit would you give for how much longer they live? Of course if someone lives through it then they're not dead, and thus not "done yet," but I'm not sure if it's necessarily giving them plot armor. Yes, O-Chul survived a lot, but I can't imagine that would mean that O-Chul's next assignment does not put him in serious mortal danger from Xykon.

I'd say it probably lasts for the character's current arc, or at least until their next big "Character Development Moment." So, Tsukiko would've survived a Wand of Disintegration used by Haley during the Azure Rebellion arc, even with an abominable "natural" Fort save. Then Tsukie had her big character thing with Redcloak, and that's all that really needed to be said for her, so all bets were off. Of course, Red needed his own character development, too, so we got an awesome seen with some wights instead of one-shot in the night.

O-Chul still has character development along with MitD, so he's probably safe until that happens. While a final character-moment with the Monster may involve Mr. Stiffly's unfortunate demise, he's still a valuable tool for showing what a "human ideal of Law and Good" is supposed to be, so Rich may be able to say more with him living than dying. Then again, that may just be my personal hope talking.

[FireJustice]

Disintegrate is a overall damage spell.
2d6 per caster level.

Sure, it has a save and SR. But, in the comic, nobody is really that optimized and no-save spells

and the coolness effect.
"poof you're dead"

[Bulldog Psion]

I would say that it indicates that things are very serious, and the casters are starting to pull out all stops. They're starting to use the heavy hitting spells rather than conserving them..

[Smolder]

It's the threat of permanent death. Not only the dramatic tension, but the fact that it's almost illogical to use any other spell to dispatch an enemy who's known to have friends who could locate and raise them. The story can only tolerate a certain number of recurring villains before they begin killing eachother off.

[Forikroder]

I've noticed that Disintegrate has a tendency to crop up during significant plot events, particularly those relating to V or Redcloak. Do you think this was intentional?


The Rise and Fall of Darth Vaarsuvius:
#186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html): V plants the seeds for the Ancient Black Dragon's revenge
#437 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html): V's failure to defend Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) (including his/her inability to defeat the death knight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)) played a big role in V's descent to madness (I'll admit this one's a stretch, but I'm including it for completion's sake)
#595 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
#625 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html)
#626 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html)
#636 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)/#637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)
#640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)
#653 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html): When Disintegrate fails, the Soul Splice ends



Redcloak:
In Start of Darkness (major spoilers)Redcloak casts Disintegrate to kill Right-Eye
#480 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html): Redcloak's conquest of Azure City is complete, as the new leader topples the old
#655 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html): As with Darth V, when it fails to do any significant damage, so too does the caster fail (losing the phylactery and becoming Wrong-Eye)
#831 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html): Redcloak begins his fauxlactery scheme
#900 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html): Again, we have the "failure" of the spell (though Roy seems to have failed his Fortitude save, it didn't lead to his defeat or anything) and the caster's failure to capture a Gate and control Xykon (this one's a stretch, too)



Other:
#200 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)/#201 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html): #200 and Miko's introduction was obviously meant to be a Big Deal that dramatically changed the course of the Order's adventure
#914 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html): Laurin uses Psionic Disintegrate to lay the final Nale in the coffin



What does it all mean???

wait have we ever seen Redcloak and Vaarsuvious in the same panel?

WHAT IF THERE THE SAME PERSON AND REDCLOAK IS PLAYING BOTH SIDES?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[JessmanCA]

Hmm for some reason I was thinking motif meant collage.

Because if someone were to make a collage of all those people getting disintegrated in OotS, it would be pretty awesome.

[Ramien]

wait have we ever seen Redcloak and Vaarsuvious in the same panel?

WHAT IF THERE THE SAME PERSON AND REDCLOAK IS PLAYING BOTH SIDES?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Sorry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) There was an earlier one, but it was just the back of V's head. It could have been an elaborate dummy.

[Forikroder]

Sorry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) There was an earlier one, but it was just the back of V's head. It could have been an elaborate dummy.

wait... what if the goblin cleric was actually an illusion to lure Belkar away from the casters so taht Redcloak could "paralyze" V and noone would know it was a fake? since V spent the whole time unable to move?

V only became able to move after Redcloak escaped afterall when he could start doing the double life again

[Gift Jeraff]

What makes you think Roy failed his save against Redcloak's disintegrate spell? :smallconfused:

I'm pretty sure that even Roy can't survive 34d6 damage unless Redcloak rolled absolutely terribly.

I based it on the # of wounds when Roy was hit vs the # of wounds when O-Chul was hit. Though maybe that's just indicative of O-Chul's high HP total.


Redcloak X Vaarsuvius = OTP!
It's all so clear to me now.

[Greatmoustache]

:belkar: heh heh, "final nale in the coffin"

[King of Nowhere]

Disintegrate is a useful spell, it deals lots of damage. Not only, it is a versatile spell. If you could just use to kill people, than it would be a weak version of finger of death. But you can also use it against undeads and other stuff immune to death effects. or you can use it to punch a hole in a wall, to get rid of a corpse, or whatever. So it is normal that it would get used a lot by those capable of using it.
But, more important, it is good story-wise. "disintegrate!", a ray of energy shooting out of a finger, the target crumbling to dust or taking heavy wounds is something even someone with no knowledge of D&D can understand. Never forget that rich is trying to make something that can be understood by non-geeks, so more obscure spells would not work as well.
Second, disintegrate can deal plenty of damage to anyone, or it can do little damage, or it can miss completely, and all of it can be shown on screen. In optimized D&D the most useful spells are the save or die effects, but those are quite boring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) to show in comic. Showing an effect that kills or does nothing depending on the roll of a dice is just not good for dramatic purpose. that's why redcloak uses disintegrate despite having acces to the more powerful destruction, and V uses it instead of finger of death.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Disintegrate is a useful spell, it deals lots of damage. Not only, it is a versatile spell. If you could just use to kill people, than it would be a weak version of finger of death. But you can also use it against undeads and other stuff immune to death effects. or you can use it to punch a hole in a wall, to get rid of a corpse, or whatever. So it is normal that it would get used a lot by those capable of using it.


Fun side-bit: I once took Leadership so our high-level party could get easy global transportation via my Sorcerer cohort. I had him know "Disintegrate" entirely for the purpose of removing ten foot cubes of material to make travel easier. And I think that's pretty much all we used it for, too. (Had to get around a Prismatic Wall, couldn't see what was on the other side, or something like that. I don't entirely recall.)

[Snails]

For old school D&D players, the Disintegrate spell did "infinite damage" on a failed save. So it was incredibly intimidating at all times.

The other not nice thing about it is it is single target. You. I want YOU dead.

I like King of Nowere's point: yes, it looks creepy and dangerous in a way that Finger of Death does not, whether it kills or does not kill.

On the practical adventuring side, it has a lot of utility uses that other offensive spells do not. In particular, a spell like Wall of Force or Forcecage, used cleverly, is often lethal to PCs unless you have the right countermeasures (DDoor/Teleport or Disintegrate).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

For old school D&D players, the Disintegrate spell did "infinite damage" on a failed save. So it was incredibly intimidating at all times.

The other not nice thing about it is it is single target. You. I want YOU dead.

I like King of Nowere's point: yes, it looks creepy and dangerous in a way that Finger of Death does not, whether it kills or does not kill.

Oh yes.

For this reason in particular: Disintegrate has the same dramatic effect that using a gun to shoot someone in a movie/TV series does. It is a direct manifestation of one character's killing intent.

It's a symbolic way to say "you, I want you dead, and you are dead", which is a very powerful narrative statement. And it's dramatic. :elan:

[Dread Cthulhu]

I don't understand why people are saying "duhh it's a really good spell of course people are using it all the time" when this is primarily a story, not a D&D game. It's implying that because of the mechanics of the setting that doing any thematic analysis on it whatsoever is moot, which is clearly ridiculous.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't understand why people are saying "duhh it's a really good spell of course people are using it all the time" when this is primarily a story, not a D&D game. It's implying that because of the mechanics of the setting that doing any thematic analysis on it whatsoever is moot, which is clearly ridiculous.

well, even if oots is not about optimization, still there's no reason not to use a useful spell. it's like guns in action movies, they get used a lot because they are the best in modern portable weaponry. EDIT so it's not a motif, it is just that action movies portray people fighting and guns are the best fighting implemment available /EDIT there are only a few exceptions like kill bill, and frankly i always thought the lack of guns in that movie didn't make any sense.

[Excise]

I don't understand why people are saying "duhh it's a really good spell of course people are using it all the time" when this is primarily a story, not a D&D game. It's implying that because of the mechanics of the setting that doing any thematic analysis on it whatsoever is moot, which is clearly ridiculous.

Not at all. It's just that the proposed motif ("significant plot events") is way too scattered to be anything more significant than "disintegrate is a powerful tool".

Take a look at the list in the original post and you'll find more or less random strips. Like is, I dunno, #625 really more or less important than the ones directly before or after it? Or #653?

[The Giant]

Disintegrate is a very useful spell for OOTS because it is equally plausible to utterly obliterate someone as it is to barely inconvenience them—it's the "swingiest" damage spell. Thus, there's a lot more uncertainty as to the outcome, which makes it more useful in storytelling. A person can get hit full force, they can get hit for partial force, or they can be missed entirely, and it's up to me which one of those happens. There's no collateral damage, which means it only hits the target I want to hit. If it kills, it makes Resurrection much harder without needing to do anything extra. And there's no well-established means of becoming immune to it, so no can tell me that OF COURSE Character X should have had Resist Disintegration cast come on do you even PLAY D&D????

[Shale]

And when it does hit for full force it's extremely powerful, which (plus the part where there's no easy way to block its damage) makes it extremely believable as an evoker's go-to damage spell - further forestalling BUT WHAT ABOUT WHAT IT SAYS IN THIS SPLATBOOK criticism.

[Muenster Man]

And when it does hit for full force it's extremely powerful, which (plus the part where there's no easy way to block its damage) makes it extremely believable as an evoker's go-to damage spell - further forestalling BUT WHAT ABOUT WHAT IT SAYS IN THIS SPLATBOOK criticism.

Slight technical correction, Disintegrate (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) is a transmutation spell, not part of the evokation school. But it is an excellent go-to damage spell, much like most of the evokation school. And it's one of the most iconic spells in D&D, which is good for non-D&D players reading the strip.

[Scow2]

Slight technical correction, Disintegrate (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) is a transmutation spell, not part of the evokation school.... wow. Evocation really is a useless school. :smalleek:

[Arcanist]

... wow. Evocation really is a useless school. :smalleek:

I wouldn't say that... I mean V finds some effective uses for it and to quote V:

Useless arcane power is still preferable to no arcane power. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html)

[Ramien]

... wow. Evocation really is a useless school. :smalleek:

:xykon: I've got a meteor swarm to your face that says otherwise.

Contingency has its uses too.

[Solse]

wait have we ever seen Redcloak and Vaarsuvious in the same panel?

WHAT IF THERE THE SAME PERSON AND REDCLOAK IS PLAYING BOTH SIDES?!?!?!?!?!?!?

To quote everybody's favorite Spoony Bard:
:elan: DUNN DUNN DUNNH!!!

[angry_bear]

... wow. Evocation really is a useless school. :smalleek:

Evocation has a lot of great AoE spells. When V comes back, that army the order is fighting will realize what an evocation specialist is capable of. :smallsmile:

The name alone, "Disintegrate," says all you need to know about the spell. You know exactly what it's intended to do, and that if it succeeds, it's game over. Heck, it's even got a chance to take out your opponent if they make their save.

When in doubt, cast disintegrate. It solves all problems in D&D, even the problems it can't solve.

[Douglas]

And there's no well-established means of becoming immune to it, so no can tell me that OF COURSE Character X should have had Resist Disintegration cast come on do you even PLAY D&D????
There is a spell that gives immunity to it, actually, but it's one I hardly ever see referenced so it seems most people, even on a forum full of D&D optimization geeks, either are not aware of it or don't realize its power. Which has always seemed a bit odd to me, as its immunity is a heck of a lot more general than one spell and it's in one of the most popular splatbooks - it grants immunity to ranged touch attacks (which incidentally includes all rays, plus the much-vaunted optimizers' choice damage spells, Orb of X), and it's in Spell Compendium. Ray Deflection, yet another entry in the "how the hell many overly-broad immunities does this game need???" list.

I was going to list the Proof Against Transmutation armor property from Complete Arcane first, but I checked and it specifically addresses that it only blocks the "turn to dust" part, not the damage. It's also rather expensive at +5.

[RolkFlameraven]

When in doubt, cast disintegrate. It solves all problems in D&D, even the problems it can't solve.

And this is why I play Psions, between disintegrate and Ego Whip everything dies! or at lest is left in a coma and easy to kill.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I've noticed that Disintegrate has a tendency to crop up during significant plot events, particularly those relating to V or Redcloak. Do you think this was intentional?

They can both cast it.