weapon enhancement stacking? (partially answered - but for the shurikens...)

[Harlot]

Hi again

As I understand the rules, weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once (they don't stack)
How about weapon enhancements though?

Say I wanted a shortsword of warning (MIC p.46) that gives a +5 to initiative when held) Could I make that a warning warning shortsword and get a +10?

Or, say I was TWF'ing (for the coolness factor, not the damage!) and had two weapons with the warning enhancement. Would they stack then, when both held?

Thanks
/Harlot

[GilesTheCleric]

Bonuses of the same type don't stack. So no, you couldn't have a warning warning weapon, because it gives a +5 insight bonus to initiative. If you had two weapons each with warning, the same applies. They have the same bonus type (insight), and thus don't stack.

The only bonus types that stack are circumstance (from different circumstances), dodge, and untyped.

If you have other quick questions, posting them to the FAQ is probably easiest. It's stickied at the top of the forum.

[Harlot]

I looked at the FAQ thread and frankly can't find head nor tail in it. Thanks for the quick reply :-)

[GilesTheCleric]

No problem.

To use the faq, just post your question, with Q ###: in front of it, where the number is one higher than the current highest number. Someone will answer your question with A and the same number so you know it's yours.

[Norin]

To get stacking initiative get one warning and one eager enchanted weapon. Or a staff with one on each end. ;)

[Harlot]

Oh - hadn't noticed the 'eager'. I'll SO do that. If I go against my better judgement and go with TWF. Which I probably will.

@GilesTheCleric: Thanks for enlighting me on the FAQ. I'll try to use it next time, and see if it works.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait: When 'eager' is untyped and 'warning' is insight bonus... why can't I just place both enhancements on one sword making it 'Harlots +2 eager shortsword of warning'?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can, and eager armor spikes of warning are a staple mid level buy for practical op games, as you always have them drawn and ready, so you always get the bonus even if your sword is sheathed.

[Harlot]

'Harlots funky spiked armor of eager warning?' - Sounds like a plan :-)

[Yuki Akuma]

You can put them both on one weapon, but due to the way magic weapons are priced it's cheaper to put them on separate weapons.

[Harlot]

due to the way magic weapons are priced it's cheaper to put them on separate weapons.

How so?

Each seems to be just a + 1 bonus á 2000 gp?

To enhance a weapon it must be masterwork - so for two weapons that'd be
2x weapon price, 2x masterwork price, 2x +1 bonus.
For one weapon you'd stack the bonusses and save the one masterwork price and weapon.

I'm missing something here ... what?

(Edit: Oh no. Don't say I'd have to pay the difference between bonus +1 (á 2000 gp) and a bonus +2 (8000 gp) just because I stack them. Please don't. I was SO happy just moments ago....)

And thanks for helping, y'all :-)

[GilesTheCleric]

Yes. The +x number of enhancements stack. So if you have a +1 armor of +3 enchantment, it is priced as a +4 item.

Edit: Also, in order to put any enchantments on a weapon or armor, it must first have a +1 enhancement bonus. So for something with a +1 enchant on it, you're looking at +2 cost or higher.

[Yuki Akuma]

A +1 warning longsword is 8,315gp.

A +1 warning eager longsword is 18,315 gp.

So it's cheaper to get a +1 warning weapon and a +1 eager weapon. :smalltongue:

[Harlot]

Yup, exactly the answer(s) I did NOT want to hear:
That makes my 'eager mithral armor spikes of warning' kind of pricey :-(

Hmm: 5050 gp for the mithral armor masterwork spikes (not including the actual armor which is cheap in comparison) + 18.000 for eager, warning and the +1 enhancement bonus. - thats a LOT of money for a +7 to initiative.

Then again: its a +7 to initiative. I might go for the TWF then and then wield the weapons 24/7 :smalltongue:

OK, thanks again for clarifying. Not happy, definitely wiser...

[Person_Man]

Also, remember that Initiative is most important at high levels (when the game is basically rocket tag) and less important at low levels (when it doesn't really matter much if you kill a goblin before he has a 20% chance of hitting you).
At low-mid levels, I can think of a lot better uses of 10-20,000-ish gp then having having a higher Initiative.

And if your party gets a Surprise Round on the enemies, your whole party has basically won initiative by default. (You all get to act first before the enemy, your Initiative order in the first round is thus a lot less consequential). So you can "win Initiative" just by being careful, having someone scout ahead, setting up ambushes or having everyone use Hide/Move Silently, having someone walk into the room in Disguise, stab someone, and then run away, etc.

[holywhippet]

And if your party gets a Surprise Round on the enemies, your whole party has basically won initiative by default. (You all get to act first before the enemy, your Initiative order in the first round is thus a lot less consequential). So you can "win Initiative" just by being careful, having someone scout ahead, setting up ambushes or having everyone use Hide/Move Silently, having someone walk into the room in Disguise, stab someone, and then run away, etc.

Or rely on something like invisibility sphere to avoid detection before jumping your enemies.

[Rubik]

There are lots of weapons you can wield simultaneously so you can stack stuff on that you'll never actively use in a fight (or that you won't want on your primary offensive weaponry). Sleeve blades, boot blades, elbow blades, braid blades, and tail blades -- not to mention grabbing an elvencraft longbow that counts as three weapons in one (composite longbow and two ends of a quarterstaff), armor spikes, gauntlets, an animated shield, and all the weapon enhancement you can stack on an unarmed strike through gauntlets, necklace of natural weaponry (NoNW), stacked chronocharm/NoNWs, warforged battlefists, and so on. Sure, the enhancement bonuses won't stack, but the special qualities will.

[Harlot]

Thanks for helping: I do like the thought of getting plusses to initiative, but with these prices I have to choose carefully.
And good point about it being for the whole group in order to really matter.
Anyhow, have to recalibrate quite a few weapons, appearently.


Sleeve blades, boot blades, elbow blades, braid blades, and tail blades

Sounds very sexy indeed. But I haven't seen any of that in any book? Well, I've seen a tail scythe in Serpent Kingdoms (I think) but thats about it. Any references? A braid blade for instance, makes sense.

Or do you just mean like any average tiny dagger braided into your hair?

(Edit: Found it...
Dungeon 120. Page 35. Exotic Weapon - Braid Blade. Light Exotic Weapon. 10gp, Dmg (s)1d2, (m)1d3. Crit 18-20x2. 1/2 lb. Slashing. When you make a full attack get an extra attack with the blade at -5. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble the penalty is -2. )

Cant see a limit to the NUMBER of braids. But it'd still have to be a +2 weapon. So a braid blade of warning + one eager would still be rediculously expensive...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sleeve, elbow and boot blades are in Complete Scoundre, Tail blade is probably from Savage Species and Braid blades are from some Dragon Magazine.

[Harlot]

OK, will check out complete scoundrel then. Awesome. There's still hope.

(edit: CS page 109, Oh joy. thanks. And found tail blade in savage species p 46 - and the braid blade in dragon magazine 120 p 35 (according to google that is.))

This will be SO MUCH FUN!

[Mnemnosyne]

Yup, exactly the answer(s) I did NOT want to hear:
That makes my 'eager mithral armor spikes of warning' kind of pricey :-(

Hmm: 5050 gp for the mithral armor masterwork spikes (not including the actual armor which is cheap in comparison) + 18.000 for eager, warning and the +1 enhancement bonus. - thats a LOT of money for a +7 to initiative.

Then again: its a +7 to initiative. I might go for the TWF then and then wield the weapons 24/7 :smalltongue:

OK, thanks again for clarifying. Not happy, definitely wiser...

There's no reason to make the armor spikes themselves out of mithril, to the best of my knowledge. I do not believe there is a rule requiring armor spikes to be made of the same material the armor is.

[Harlot]

@Mnemnosyne: OK, that makes quite a difference - app. 5000 gp actually :-)

Still as I understand the instructions here, whichever weapon I want to enhance through magic or special abilies effectively has a base price of

weapon price + masterwork + enhancement (+1) + whatever ability/magic you want to add.
So the armor spikes or sword or braid blade or whatever 'of warning' would cost 8300 and counting...

Reluctantly I must admit that the rules make sense. However, it does mean that I probably won't get my whisper gnome swordsage a 'warning whirling Hornblade +1 shortsword of martial discipline' - as was the original plan.
*sigh*

and thanks again for helping
/Harlot

[PraxisVetli]

There's no reason to make the armor spikes themselves out of mithril, to the best of my knowledge. I do not believe there is a rule requiring armor spikes to be made of the same material the armor is.

Make them all out of copper. Or bone.
or stone/clay.

[Harlot]

Yup. The base weapon price of the spikes does seem to be less of an issue than the 8300+ gp for the actual 'warning' enhancement ..

[SciChronic]

then get +1 armor spikes of warning, and a +1 eager hidden boot blade

it'll be a cheaper than the +1 eager armor spikes of warning, and you can get the items as you play when you have the gold, rather than have to save the 20k.

[Rubik]

You can get them for just a bit over 1/50 the cost if they started out as +1 morphing shurikens of the appropriate size. Just add warning to one, eager to the other, and turn each of them into boot blades for different feet.

[Greenish]

Without going for fancy hidden weapons, you could always have +1 Warning armour spikes and +1 Eager (spiked) gauntlets.

[PraxisVetli]

You can get them for just a bit over 1/50 the cost if they started out as +1 morphing shurikens of the appropriate size. Just add warning to one, eager to the other, and turn each of them into boot blades for different feet.

Does that...
does that work?
Is there anything stopping the same procedure to braidblades?
Because dirtcheap braidblades seems like a good time for +2 collision enchantment.
Lethal headbanging, and tumble checks may induce severe lacerations.

[Harlot]

And if the shuriken trick works with braid blades as well: I can't see any limitation at all to the NUMBER of braidblades - so one could make a Gilette Medusa and start headbanging :-)

On that note: Regardless of the cost - the 'warning' enhancement specifically says that you only get the +5 to initiative 'when wielding' the weapon - which would then work for the braidblade and the armor spikes, but not for any hidden weapons. Don't know if the same applies to 'eager'...
So except for the shuriken trick, the base price is 8300 regardles.

Looked at it again last night, and I am going for the braidblade. +5 to initiative for the price of 8310 GP is OK.

Edit: looked at the shuriken. Thats just plain ridiculous!? But still somewhat within the RAW: Morphing in MIC states that the weapon the morphed shuriken changes into should be the same 'size and type' as the original. - Does 'type' here refer to light, onehanded or two-handed? Because if it does, it could be DESIGNED to make you a stash of braidblades :-)

Shuriken, medium: 1gp – masterwork 30 gp - (+1 & morphing & warning & eager) total of +4 bonus = 3200 gp- Total: 3231 gp for + 7 to initiative. SO BUYING!

[PraxisVetli]

Gilette Medusa
Beautiful image.


If you grow your hair long, can you get free reach?
I remember one of the suggested Wu-Jen taboo's is you can't cut your hair.
I sense a radical new Gish build.
edit: duskblade wujen ultimagi magis.
but thats a topic for another day..