Starcraft II's Story

[Lord]

So I just got finished playing through Starcraft II a few months ago, and since then I've been looking over the various message boards waiting for someone to say what needs saying regarding it. Unfortunately while many people called out the game for what they saw as a blatantly sexist derailment of Kerrigan, or for it's transparent recycling of old plot threads, no one has really addressed the biggest problem with the story.

And that problem is that... well... with the exception of Valerian and to a lesser extant Matt Horner the main characters are just evil.

No seriously. For all Raynor's talk about 'protecting the little guy' or whatever, he spends the entire Wings of Liberty Campaign killing Protoss and Dominion Soldiers who might have otherwise been used to deflect the Zerg. Maybe he helps the people on Aggria, but at the end of the day everything he does is just destabalizing the Galaxy at a time when what is needed is order. Maybe Arterusc Mengsk isn't a very nice person, but at the end of the day he's trying to ensure humanities survival in a universe where everything is trying to kill them, and is willing to do anything to ensure that goal, even kill his own son.

This is in sharp contrast to Raynor, who is perfectly willing to aid a horde of alien locusts in a genocidal attack on Korhal, just to punish Arcturusc Mengsk for not stopping a Horde of Alien Locusts who began a genocidal attack on Tarsonis.

Can you see where I'm going with this? Raynor may claim that he's leading the Raiders to save lives, but at the end of the day that's just propaganda, thrown out to motivate his men to follow him in a near suicidal attack just to get his girlfriend back.

And that is not even going into Sarah Kerrigan, who is possibly the most unsympathetic main character I have ever seen. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that. If anything it's an understatement.

And before I go any farther let me just say that I was actually interested in seeing how Blizzard would do the redemption arc introduced in Wings of Liberty. After they had more or less spent the entiriety of Brood War establishing her as an axe crazy, sadistic, genocidal complete monster who enjoys the suffering of others, and cares nothing for anyone besides herself, how were they planning on making the Audiance like her again, aside from putting a bullet in her skull.

Well as it turns out Blizzard's solution was to not have a redemption arc at all, and just have her immidiatly undo the only good thing Raynor accomplished in the first game, and have her act like an axe crazy, sadistic, genocidal complete monster who enjoys the suffering of others, doesn't care about anybody but herself, and is a selfright jackass on top of it all.
No seriously, she kills billions of innocent people just to get revenge of Mengsk. Revenge for what you ask? Well Mengsk killed Raynor. Except not really. And even if he had killed Raynor it's not like Raynor wouldn't do exactly the same thing in his place. Oh sure Arcturusc abandoned her to the Zerg, but she loves being Zerg! Half her flipping dialogue is boasting about how powerful and might she is because she is Zerg! Hell, she already GOT revenge on Mengsk in the FIRST game. Nothing she does has a proper motivation!

And nobody dare cite gameplay and story segregation to me. Maybe a single Marine unit can be easily replaced with fifty mineral in game, but in universe that Marine has family, friends, hopes and dreams. Each battlecruiser she blows up in her psychic temper tantrum countained a crew of hundreds, maybe more. She isn't even restrained when dealing with people who have nothing to do with the Terran Dominion.

One of the first missions consist of her brutally slaughtering an entire colony of Protoss for no other reason than the fact that they killed a bunch of mindless Zerg in self defense. She orders the complete obliteration of planets without a second thought, and makes selfrightous speeches to people whose lives she ruined out of pure spite with the same breath.

To hell with protagonist centered morality and designated heroes, this game is almost experimental in how much of an utterly remorseless unsympathetic monster the main character is.

Which in turn brings me to the real hero of the story, Valerian Mensk. Valerians Mengsk is the only character in the game who tries to do the right thing for it's own sake. More importantly he's the only person who calls Kerrigan on her bull****, and manages to save more people with a few well placed What the hell heroes, then Raynor did with his entire career of piracy and murder for the sake of petty revenge.

The only part of the story I liked was the first three missions, because in those Kerrigan actually showed some traces of being a good person, and more importantly interacted with Valerian, which was actually entertaining.
Also am I the only one who thinks that Raynor and Kerrigan is one of the least interesting romance sub plots ever. It's just boring, and any interesting elements were played out long ago.

Personally I think that Kerrigan should get together with Kratos from God of War III. After all, both are vengeful, arrogant, jerkasses who bring destruction and horrible deaths to countless innocent people in a selfcentered quest for self destruction. Although maybe they are a bit too similar...

Maybe some kind of love triangle with Light Yagami from Death Note, since it would probably end with at least two of them dead.

...Yeah I'm not sure where that came from either.

Either way, what are your thought on the subject of StarCraft II. Do you agree? Am I missing something, or just interpreting things wrong?

[Tectonic Robot]

Hey, man, you're pretty much right about Kerrigan. I want to point out, though, that Kerrigan isn't really set up as a good guy. She's not a good guy. She's a pretty terrible person, and the game doesn't hide that.

The main reason for her attacking the protoss wasn't out of any love for the destroyed zerg, though, it was due to their ability to call a crapload of other Protoss ships over to blow her to smithereens. She could have ran--that's even brought up in the story--and the reason she gives is that she doesn't want the protoss to know she's alive, period. She goes on to state that that isn't a justification for what she's done, though, and that it's totally an evil act.

Jim Raynor isn't very heroic, though, and he's supposed to be heroic, so yeah, problem there.

[Lord]

Personally I got the impression that the game wanted us to root for her, but that's neither here, nor there.

I probably wouldn't have had anywhere near as much a problem with it if she'd died at the end.

If they had Korhal take place as the second to last battle, with the Hyperion arriving to assist Mengsk, and the Protoss showing up in force to blow her space units to smithereens, culminating in her being a sent fleeing her life in humiliation and only the knowledge of what a monster she was I probably would have liked it better. That way Narud could be the final boss, with a reveal that he completed the Hybrid's while she was busy getting revenge, and her sacrificing her life to stop the hybrids could act as a sort of partial redemption.

As it is, where she makes out with Raynor after murdering Mengsk in cold blood and leaves without once suffering a day of guilt for her actions...

I really find it a disgrace to the storyline.

[thorgrim29]

Well I like Raynor in Wings of Liberty a lot, though he does have a bit of a mission drift problem. I do agree that Kerrigan isn't remotely a good guy. Personally, I was rooting for Jim to fulfil the promise he made here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCcnd1WJVCo with the bullet he was keeping for Mengst. That would have been immensely satisfying

In his defence, Zeratul's prophecy was very explicit that Kerrigan needed to live, and I could see how that might translate to Kerrigan is redeemable in Jim's mind.

[Anarion]

Raynor is heroic, but not because he cares about the overall state of the galaxy or order vs. chaos. He's heroic because he's one of the few characters in the Starcraft universe (which is filled with a lot of hypocritical bastards) who sticks to his principles. He judges people not based on their race or faction, but by their character (with the possible exception of Kerrigan herself, who has been a mixed bag for a long time and is all tied up in prophecy).

If you don't like that, you don't have to call Raynor a hero if you don't want to. But Starcraft is a universe where pretty much everyone is okay with killing, and usually it's killing purely because the other guy isn't the same race/faction/philosophy as you. Killing because you actually got to know someone and they did really terrible things is a step up in that universe.


Also, the stability of Mensk's government is basically a lie. We've seen that human facilities have been heavily usurped for the purpose of creating hybrids and, even to the extent that Mensk still controlled his own empire, he would have been very unlikely to go out into space and intervene far away from his own holdings, even if failure to intervene would result in the big bad building up an unstoppable army that would eventually wipe out everybody else. In that regard, Mensk had a very similar problem to Kubota underestimating Xykon in the main comic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, at least you're not one of those guys who think Heart of the Swarm sucks because Kerrigan actually has emotions.

I don't think Kerrigan or Raynor were ever really meant to be good. The world was meant to be gray. Raynor is pretty stupid for trying to not just gain the upper hand, but also follow through and leave a power gap in the Dominion while they're in a huge war, even if Mengsk's not the best of war leaders. Trying to survive, gain manpower and equipment, and dig up dirt on Mengsk even if at the expense of some of the Dominion's strength is okay for a rebel leader, but trying to dethrone the guy when he's needed most is stupid. Just because events outside of your control conspired to give a way to turn your greatest threat into an ally and set up a strong leader to fill the power gap in the Dominion doesn't mean he gets a free pass. I think his conversation with Matt about how the world after the Dominion "won't be for people like me and Tosh" or something like that.

As for Kerrigan, she was narrow-minded and angry, only excused because her goal is sympathetic and she willingly accepts her duty as the Chosen One once it's fulfilled. But really, if I were her, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over killing Arcturus either.

[Surrealistik]

Raynor isn't remotely heroic. You can admire him for sticking to his principles (relatively speaking anyways), but that hardly makes him a hero or heroic in light of his reckless actions and their destructive, destabilizing consequences.

BTW, I think your assessment is about spot on Lord.

[deuterio12]

Raynor is heroic, but not because he cares about the overall state of the galaxy or order vs. chaos. He's heroic because he's one of the few characters in the Starcraft universe (which is filled with a lot of hypocritical bastards) who sticks to his principles. He judges people not based on their race or faction, but by their character (with the possible exception of Kerrigan herself, who has been a mixed bag for a long time and is all tied up in prophecy).

I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others that got caught between you and your mad quest for power! (http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/976)-Jimmy Raynor back during the broodwar.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Raynor isn't remotely heroic. You can admire him for sticking to his principles, but that hardly makes him a hero in light of his reckless actions and their destructive, destabilizing consequences.

I don't think he's heroic. I think he's better than Mengsk.

Matt's the one who's really going to lead, or at least would've if Val hadn't come along. Raynor's a general, a commander, a soldier, but he isn't fit to govern. Best ending for him is probably just to go back to his rural homeworld and live out the rest of his days in peace.

[Surrealistik]

I don't think he's heroic. I think he's better than Mengsk.

I was more addressing Anarion to be honest.


I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others that got caught between you and your mad quest for power! (http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/976)-Jimmy Raynor back during the broodwar.

Lol yeah. Golden, and hence the 'relatively' in RE to sticking with his principles. That said, in retrospect, I don't know if even this is accurate given how huge a 180 like that is, especially in light of his relationship with Fenix.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think you've been reading a bit too much idealistic fiction lately. Stop thinking Harry Potter and start thinking Warhammer 40k.

I think some of the best parts of this storyline is that the people are... well.. human (at least human-esque in emotions). Jim wants to overthrow Mengsk because overall he's more dangerous to humanity in power than overthrowing him. Furthermore, may I remind you that Mengsk is the one who permitted the Queen of Blades to be created? The entire zerg species would be extinct now if it wasn't for Mengsk.

Overall, he's at least got Mat Horner who is willing to pick up the pieces after he gets done smashing everything. The quintessential idealistic butter bar who's so fresh out of the academy that he squeaks in regulation, with a stick up his pigu that would take a battlecruiser to dislodge. He likes to think he's induldged in sinfulness, but that is limited to things like playing in a card game and accidentally winning the hand of Mira Han. Think about that... in a universe where millions, if not billions, of lives are being traded about, he thinks he 'knows the dark side of humanity' because he's been in a bloody card game. How naive can you possibly get?

And yet, it is that naiveté which is his greatest strength. Because he does hold to his ideals, he's quite possibly the only person capable of rebuilding a government which isn't going to use its citizens as disposable decoys. He's about the closest thing you're going to get in this series to a 'hero'. And even then, that's largely because he doesn't know any better.

And at the end... well, Raynor knows, thanks to Zeratul, that she needs to go fight the Xel'naga whom is awakening. Odds are, that's going to kill her off anyways. Besides, the person who was the queen of blades is gone. Kerrigan as she is now may not be a good person, but it's not the same person who killed off Fenix either.

Kerrigan... I love her fall from 'decency'. Quite bluntly, she had one driving goal: Revenge. It was not a revenge tainted with 'for the needs of all' or any sugar-coating... it was pure, honest, vengeful wrath. She no longer cared about the rest of the galaxy, as long as she could nail Mengsk, nothing else mattered.

Jim Raynor was her only tie to her 'humanity'. Yanking him was about as smart as the decision to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand. Once that happened, she no only lost her humanity, she lost any desire to find it. In this, at least, I can respect the Blizzard folks... there's no sugar coating here, no morality party, no pity party... it's time to kick ass, and screw taking names. It's time to kill until the universe runs red. Because if I'm not allowed to live... neither is anyone else. I tried being good, I really did. But if I can't be good, then I'm going to be the most wicked Evil which ever existed.

And ultimately, she's got the exact same drive that pushed her through Brood Wars. She wants Mengsk dead. Period. The entire reason the Brood Wars existed was to gain enough power to kill him. No matter who else died in the way, no matter what else happened. She is driven with a single-minded obsession to see that man dead, and to hell with any other consideration.

She's not a hero. She's not supposed to be. She is, at best, an anti-hero. I find her a very sympathetic viewpoint character because I've been there. I know what it is like to be wounded so badly you want to do nothing more than to take someone down, and to hell with whomever gets in my way. Fortunately, I did manage to restrain my darker urges and get back in control, but... everyone has a dark side. Everyone. My only difference is that I've looked it in the face. Maybe you haven't, and that's why you can't sympathize with her. If so, I envy you that.

This isn't a world where 'good' really exists. This is a universe where you have a choice between Black or Grey. And generally most of the shades of grey to choose from are pretty damn dark.

I think you've got your wires crossed. There are no 'heroes', designated or otherwise. Think less Star Wars and more Firefly.

[deuterio12]

Furthermore, may I remind you that Mengsk is the one who permitted the Queen of Blades to be created? The entire zerg species would be extinct now if it wasn't for Mengsk.


Eeerrr, lots of commanders left their troops to be nommed by zergs here and there. How could Mengsk predict that the overmind would instead decide to spare Kerrigan and turn her in its new super general?:smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you've been reading a bit too much idealistic fiction lately. Stop thinking Harry Potter and start thinking Warhammer 40k.

Well, except 40k actually does have heroes. The God-Emperor, Cain, and others.

[Tavar]

I'd point out that, without Kerrigan/and Overmind, the Swarm is broken, thus stopping/reducing the only real threat to the Dominion in the sector(the Protoss are powerful, and could likely kill humanity in the sector if they tried, but they don't really want to). So, de-zerging Kerrigan does actually stop Humanities great enemy.

As for Kerrigan, she actually has a reason beyond Raynor: Mengsk fed her to the Zerg for the act of disagreeing with him about feeding an entire planet to the Zerg. Yes, Kerrigan's a monster(and she agrees with that). But Mengsk creates monsters, and doesn't seem to care about that. And, yes, she like being a Zerg the second time, but that was
A) under her own volition(which is really important).
B) did not result in her being under and outside force's control.

Compare to, say, someone going up to you and painfully destroying your arm without any input from you, and then giving you a nice Bionic arm(with many capabilities, but a mind control chip for a third party). Later, you lose the first arm, but get it replaced. The capabilities of the arm are nice, but wanting revenge on the first guy is still acceptable.



Regarding just the efforts vs Mengsk, I think it's important to realize that Mengsk kept commiting atrocities. Yes, many died in the war, including those who were essentially blameless(or under their own from of mind-control, given established terran practices). That's the price of war. Should one not fight against tryanny? What about invaders? Keep in mind that Mengsk would be hunting Raynor and Co no matter what.

Oh, and while Raynor wasn't really trying to build up something to replace Mengsk....why should he? It's made clear in a couple places that Raynor was little more than an annoyance on the fringes, unable to really threaten anything important except Mengsk's ego, at least until something else diverted Mengsk's attention. And by the time that it would be reasonable for him to create a plan, well, they have Mengsk's son, who is an actual decent human being, and the government is apparently a hereditary system.

Also, it should be pointed out that most of the Toss killed by Raynor were a rebel group: if you meet up with 'normal' Toss in the missions against them, they help you take them down.


Well, except 40k actually does have heroes. The God-Emperor, Cain, and others.
Warfield, Horner, Mengsk the Second, Fenix, Zeratul.

And, it should be noted, that while Cain is a hero, he's a Hero of the Imperium(well, maybe: the author himself is ambivalent about his heroness). He holds many positions that would make him just as bad as Raynor: the society that he's in, however, holds those positions to be good.

[Tengu_temp]

Raynor is supposed to be a hero - a chaotic good type who sticks it to The Man and does the right thing, even if he goes against the system to do it. that's in theory, and in practice he's a jerk who has puts his love for Kerrigan above the lives of people he's supposed to be fighting for and does a lot of evil stuff, like Lord said.

This is not because Starcraft is supposed to be a morally grey, dark universe. It's because Blizzard's writing sucks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Raynor is supposed to be a hero - a chaotic good type who sticks it to The Man and does the right thing, even if he goes against the system to do it. that's in theory, and in practice he's a jerk who has puts his love for Kerrigan above the lives of people he's supposed to be fighting for and does a lot of evil stuff, like Lord said.

This is not because Starcraft is supposed to be a morally grey, dark universe. It's because Blizzard's writing sucks.

What evil stuff does he do to get Kerrigan back? I agree that Raynor and Matt were stupid for figuring out that Typhus has a killswitch and then doing nothing about it, but it was lover + universe-wide prophecy vs. old friend who was just as bad as Raynor.

[Traab]

The thing is, throughout wings of liberty, if you listen to the news reports, you see arcturus isnt doing anything decent. His propaganda machine is falling apart bit by bit as we learn he is literally throwing away worlds in his empire to the zerg, not offering any aid to those not a part of the "core worlds" and in fact destroying them himself as they become refugees and try to reach safety.

He then spins his propaganda about how much it hurts to make the hard choices when its not the hard choice, its the easy choice. He wants his big money making worlds to survive and keep him safe, the rest of the universe can go hang. Oh, and dont forget to concentrate on bringing down raynor. After all, HE is the threat, not the queen of blades and her 50 quintillion strong swarm ransacking every world in your empire. No, its the guy who can make him look bad in the eyes of the empire thats the real danger.

As for kerrigan, she isnt supposed to be a hero, I think the entire story between her and jim is supposed to be more tragic. Its about love lost, and bad choices made out of rage and revenge. Sacrificing happiness just to gain vengeance on the one who hurt her. She has very limited choices from early on. If she doesnt wipe out the protoss at the start, then she would be easily crushed by the golden armada. (And man oh man I cant wait for the tie in during the protoss campaign where that infested ship reaches auir or wherever) her choices tend to be, become a stronger zerg, become more and more the queen of blades, or die.

She isnt good, thats not what her character is supposed to be. I suppose you could call her evil, but then, she is establishing her race, and making sure they can survive. Good is a matter of perspective. For the terrans and protoss, no she isnt good. For the zerg? Hell yeah she is good! She has made the swarm even more powerful, has made huge strides towards securing its survival in the universe, and has prepared them for the onslaught to come.

[GolemsVoice]

Eh, I don't think Raynor is supposed that big of a hero, or at least not a hero who sets everything right, and he's certainly not a hero who wants to help EVERYBODY. He has a very clear goal, and that is to take Mengsk down and, after he learned of the possibility, get Kerrigan back. He hates Mengsk, and he'll do anything to get to him.
However, given the way Mengsk governs his empire, taking Mengsk down and freeing the people are almost synonymous. Mengsk conducts horrible research on anything he can get his hands on, without caring for the fallout. He has errected a brutal regime based on force and universal distrust. Mengsk has no qualms about shooting dissenters, forcing the survivors into slave labor, manipulating the media to ridiculous extent, abandoning planets without even pretending to care, nuking planets that get in his way, either with actual nukes or by siccing the zerg on them.

Add to that that, from what I've gathered, he's actually loosing the war against the Zerg, I can't see any reason NOT to take Mengsk down. And if he has to side with Kerrigan, he will do so.

In the end, none of these characters are perfect, and they very often don't act rationally.

[Lord]

I'd point out that, without Kerrigan/and Overmind, the Swarm is broken, thus stopping/reducing the only real threat to the Dominion in the sector(the Protoss are powerful, and could likely kill humanity in the sector if they tried, but they don't really want to). So, de-zerging Kerrigan does actually stop Humanities great enemy.

As for Kerrigan, she actually has a reason beyond Raynor: Mengsk fed her to the Zerg for the act of disagreeing with him about feeding an entire planet to the Zerg. Yes, Kerrigan's a monster(and she agrees with that). But Mengsk creates monsters, and doesn't seem to care about that. And, yes, she like being a Zerg the second time, but that was
A) under her own volition(which is really important).
B) did not result in her being under and outside force's control.

Compare to, say, someone going up to you and painfully destroying your arm without any input from you, and then giving you a nice Bionic arm(with many capabilities, but a mind control chip for a third party). Later, you lose the first arm, but get it replaced. The capabilities of the arm are nice, but wanting revenge on the first guy is still acceptable.



Regarding just the efforts vs Mengsk, I think it's important to realize that Mengsk kept commiting atrocities. Yes, many died in the war, including those who were essentially blameless(or under their own from of mind-control, given established terran practices). That's the price of war. Should one not fight against tryanny? What about invaders? Keep in mind that Mengsk would be hunting Raynor and Co no matter what.

Oh, and while Raynor wasn't really trying to build up something to replace Mengsk....why should he? It's made clear in a couple places that Raynor was little more than an annoyance on the fringes, unable to really threaten anything important except Mengsk's ego, at least until something else diverted Mengsk's attention. And by the time that it would be reasonable for him to create a plan, well, they have Mengsk's son, who is an actual decent human being, and the government is apparently a hereditary system.

Also, it should be pointed out that most of the Toss killed by Raynor were a rebel group: if you meet up with 'normal' Toss in the missions against them, they help you take them down.


Warfield, Horner, Mengsk the Second, Fenix, Zeratul.

And, it should be noted, that while Cain is a hero, he's a Hero of the Imperium(well, maybe: the author himself is ambivalent about his heroness). He holds many positions that would make him just as bad as Raynor: the society that he's in, however, holds those positions to be good.

Maybe Mengsk abandoned her to the Zerg, but given the cutscene we saw, even if he had sent people to save her they would have arrived too late and been brutally murdered for nothing.

And as for the Heroes you sighted, two of them were murdered in cold blood by Kerrigan out of spite, one was ALMOST murdered for not managing to grab Raynor from one of the most deadly assassins in the universe, and the last one had his life completely ruined by her, a fact which she GLOATED TO HIM ABOUT.

Besides, for all the prophecy bull**** {which I find annoying as far as plot points go, since prophecies in general are overdone, and tend to make Mary Sues.}, the fact is that the best case scenario was not what happened, it's Zeratul killing Kerrigan before he even finds the prophecy.

Seriously, it was a major plot point that the Artifact's activation resurrected Amon. So if Zeratul had successfully sliced her head off the ENTIRE STORY WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT FINE RIGHT THERE.

Also the reason I call Raynor evil isn't because he is rebelling again Mengsk, who is a legitimately oppressive dictator. It's WHEN he's rebelling that's my problem. For most of Wings of Liberty he doesn't know about the prophecy or anything else, all he knows is that there is a genocidal war going on against the whole human race. And rather than drop his personal grudges and start fighting Zerg, he instead goes around robbing the Holy Sites of the Tal'Darim {he has no way of knowing they are bad guys.} killing Dominion soldiers who are only doing their jobs, and overall weakening the resistance efforts against the Zerg.

And don't even get me started on his blatant violation of parley.

In regards to Kerrigan, even if we buy into the idea that Blizzard never meant for her to be a hero, that just makes things worse, because it more or less means that after all the horrific crimes she had commited against innocent people in a glorified temper tantrum, that Blizzard thinks that just murdering someone who might deserve it means that her getting off scot free is a reasonable ending.

Frankly, I would have liked it better if Raynor had actually been dead, and that Matt arrived with the Hyperion to help the Dominion. You could have a good ironic echo from him.

Something like this.

Matt: "Killing Mengsk was never the point of this. Our revolution was about saving live. About protecting innocent people from monsters like you. Jim's greatest mistake was thinking that there was anything good left of you, if there was anything good at all in the first place. You should have died on Char, Kerrigan. Your very existence is a mistake. One I intend to correct here and now. All batteries fire."

'That' would have been cool.

Then you could have had Tosh's specters team up with Nova's ghosts to assassinate Kerrigan's broodmothers, while Artanis arrives and starts killing the Zerg in vengeance for the Protoss she has slaughtered. That way Kerrigan might well kill Mengsk, and then go out Gul'dan style, running away with everyone hunting her, and finally dying alone with the knowledge of how thoroughly she has screwed things up.

I might have actually felt some sympathy for her then. Instead she gets off scot free, without ever feeling an ounce of guilt for her atrocities.

[GolemsVoice]

Also the reason I call Raynor evil isn't because he is rebelling again Mengsk, who is a legitimately oppressive dictator. It's WHEN he's rebelling that's my problem. For most of Wings of Liberty he doesn't know about the prophecy or anything else, all he knows is that there is a genocidal war going on against the whole human race. And rather than drop his personal grudges and start fighting Zerg, he instead goes around robbing the Holy Sites of the Tal'Darim {he has no way of knowing they are bad guys.} killing Dominion soldiers who are only doing their jobs, and overall weakening the resistance efforts against the Zerg.

Raynor never hides the fact that they are also merceneraries. And criminals. So yes, he kills Tal'Darim to get to the artefacts.

And the only time he actively weakens the Dominion seriously is when he steals the Odin and assaults Korhal to send a message, which I think were more hit-and-run attacks. And Mengsk would have killed him just the same had he ever come out of hiding to help the Dominion. Mengsk is a bastard like that, and he hates Raynor more than he wants to save his empire.

EDIT: attacking when your enemy is weak is a prime tactic for rebels. Keep in mind that, even though you might sling around battlecruisers like they're going out of style, canonically, Raynor's Raiders are still heavily outmatched by the Dominion for most of the game. Guerillia warfare, hit-and-run tactics and the like are what helps them survive.

However, once Raynor sets his mind to destroying the Zerg, he succeeds, ending the war in one swoop, in a mission that is rightfully called "All In". Either the artifact works, he gets Kerrigan back and the Zerg stop attacking, or all go to hell. The other option was to bring his meager troops to Mengsk, a fact which would upset about 99% of his crew deeply, risking that Mengsk will kill him (and all the rebels, just because. Mengsk is crazy like that) and losing the war anyway because the Zerg are an almost unstoppable force.


And regarding Kerrigan: yes, she get's off scot free. Because Raynor wants this (and because there's nobody who could seriously oppose her fleet). Again, this is not the morally correct decision, maybe. It's the decision that makes sense for Raynor and Kerrigan, who have both struggled a long time with what they are, what they have become, and what to do about that. Raynore LOVES Kerrigan as much as he HATES Mengsk. He's willing to move heaven and hell for her, and Kerrigan is willing to do the same to stop Mengsk. She's called the Bitch Queen of the Universe for a reason.

And regarding the prophecy: the universe in which Kerrigan is killed is the universe we see in the final Protoss mission in WoL. The world ends. Period. You may not like the prophecy, but bad writing or good writing, it's a fact in the game. Kerrigan must survive.

[Anarion]

I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan. For Fenix and all the others that got caught between you and your mad quest for power! (http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/976)-Jimmy Raynor back during the broodwar.

Oh come on! I specifically excepted Kerrigan! That one bit of stupidity by Blizzard just has to be ignored at this point. Yes, it was a giant screw-up of monumental proportions by their writing team, but if you stick on the Fenix thing then you can't enjoy anything about Starcraft II.


I was more addressing Anarion to be honest.


Well, like I said, you don't have to call him a hero if you don't want to. I think in a universe of racist bastards, he's the closest thing we're going to get (Matt Horner fails to qualify as a hero because he doesn't actually do things). Zeratul is also up there, but he's got other problems.

Tassadar, dead though he is, may qualify as a true hero, especially because of the sacrifice that he made.


Well, except 40k actually does have heroes. The God-Emperor, Cain, and others.

Propaganda machine says yes, in-universe reality says...maybe.


Maybe Mengsk abandoned her to the Zerg, but given the cutscene we saw, even if he had sent people to save her they would have arrived too late and been brutally murdered for nothing.


That cutscene has to be taken carefully. It looks like a lot of zerg, but we've also scene that a lot of the tanks and ships used in Starcraft are much larger and more powerful in cutscenes than they are when used as fighting units. Had Raynor been allowed to take back several dropships with a force of siege tanks immediately when he wanted to, he might well have wiped out that entire area and pulled Kerrigan out safely.

Or he might not, it's hard to say.



And as for the Heroes you sighted, two of them were murdered in cold blood by Kerrigan out of spite, one was ALMOST murdered for not managing to grab Raynor from one of the most deadly assassins in the universe, and the last one had his life completely ruined by her, a fact which she GLOATED TO HIM ABOUT.


Nobody is claiming Kerrigan is a hero. At any point. She might be a necessity and may or may not be subject to redemption, but she's far more queen bitch of the universe than she ever was a hero.



Besides, for all the prophecy bull**** {which I find annoying as far as plot points go, since prophecies in general are overdone, and tend to make Mary Sues.}, the fact is that the best case scenario was not what happened, it's Zeratul killing Kerrigan before he even finds the prophecy.

Seriously, it was a major plot point that the Artifact's activation resurrected Amon. So if Zeratul had successfully sliced her head off the ENTIRE STORY WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT FINE RIGHT THERE.


I think that's a misread. First off, Zeratul may never have been able to kill her, so you're assuming he could have when varying power levels make that questionable.

Second, there are a lot of psionic beings in the series. If Kerrigan dies, maybe Narud assembles the artifact unopposed and activates it with a bunch of kidnapped protoss. Or he grows a new overmind (remember that the cerebrates had done that and the dominion was able to take it over, previously) and the whole thing happens a generation later with nobody the wiser until it's too late.



Also the reason I call Raynor evil isn't because he is rebelling again Mengsk, who is a legitimately oppressive dictator. It's WHEN he's rebelling that's my problem. For most of Wings of Liberty he doesn't know about the prophecy or anything else, all he knows is that there is a genocidal war going on against the whole human race. And rather than drop his personal grudges and start fighting Zerg, he instead goes around robbing the Holy Sites of the Tal'Darim {he has no way of knowing they are bad guys.} killing Dominion soldiers who are only doing their jobs, and overall weakening the resistance efforts against the Zerg.


What genocidal war, exactly? Kerrigan disappeared after Brood War. Nobody had seen hide nor hair of the Zerg in four years when WoL starts and nobody wanted to go anywhere near Char. Mensk had spent his time fighting other humans for dominance and Raynor was a small force fighting primarily to obtain enough supplies to survive, since Mensk cast him as a terrorist.

Protoss hadn't been heard from in that time period either and the Tal'Darim were a minor group that nobody really knew about.

Even if you think the fight against the Zerg hadn't ended, the accusation you level against Raynor is equally strong against Mensk: why did he spend his time fighting other human factions and consolidating his own power instead of fighting the Zerg while they were dormant?



In regards to Kerrigan, even if we buy into the idea that Blizzard never meant for her to be a hero, that just makes things worse, because it more or less means that after all the horrific crimes she had commited against innocent people in a glorified temper tantrum, that Blizzard thinks that just murdering someone who might deserve it means that her getting off scot free is a reasonable ending.

I think you're missing the point here. The Empire wins in Empire Strikes Back. Xykon took over Azure City. Sometimes the villain wins. Sometimes people even like the villain because the villain has style and confidence. The story hasn't ended yet, we don't know what's going to happen to Kerrigan in the end of everything.



Frankly, I would have liked it better if Raynor had actually been dead, and that Matt arrived with the Hyperion to help the Dominion. You could have a good ironic echo from him.

Something like this.

Matt: "Killing Mengsk was never the point of this. Our revolution was about saving live. About protecting innocent people from monsters like you. Jim's greatest mistake was thinking that there was anything good left of you, if there was anything good at all in the first place. You should have died on Char, Kerrigan. Your very existence is a mistake. One I intend to correct here and now. All batteries fire."

'That' would have been cool.

Then you could have had Tosh's specters team up with Nova's ghosts to assassinate Kerrigan's broodmothers, while Artanis arrives and starts killing the Zerg in vengeance for the Protoss she has slaughtered. That way Kerrigan might well kill Mengsk, and then go out Gul'dan style, running away with everyone hunting her, and finally dying alone with the knowledge of how thoroughly she has screwed things up.

I might have actually felt some sympathy for her then. Instead she gets off scot free, without ever feeling an ounce of guilt for her atrocities.

It sounds like you've got the first part of your fanfiction all finished up. :smallwink:

[Surrealistik]

I would agree with Tassadar being a true and unambiguous hero, but I definitely don't see how the case can be remotely made for Raynor. Less bad than the vast majority of his contemporaries? Sure. Hero? Hell no.

[Anarion]

I would agree with Tassadar being a true and unambiguous hero, but I definitely don't see how the case can be remotely made for Raynor. Less bad than the vast majority of his contemporaries? Sure. Hero? Hell no.

Okay, so we're definitely not using the Greek definition. But since we're not, what do you think it takes to be a hero? Your two data points are Tassadar yes, Raynor no, but what is it that disqualifies him?

I defined it earlier up as sticking to his principles (except Kerrigan), but since you gave me that one and still said not a hero, what are you looking for?

[Surrealistik]

First off, it's arguable whether he even _is_ true to his principles in the first place; that's only relatively accurate, _at best_. And yes, Kerrigan's example counts in a huge way.


My definition of a hero can be roughly approximated as someone who acts altruistically (self-sacrifice for the sake of others) for the advancement or achievement of a just cause in a way that is ethical, especially in the face of meaningful opposition or adversity.

And yes, if someone initially fulfills that criteria and then acts like a self-absorbed rat bastard who stringently places what he perceives to be his own self-interest (mistaken or otherwise) above others and ethical behaviour, he is no longer a hero.


This permits Tassadar his hero status, but clearly excludes Raynor unless you are willing to get pretty damn creative with the definition of some of the above.

[Tavar]

This permits Tassadar his hero status, but clearly excludes Raynor unless you are willing to get pretty damn creative with the definition of some of the above.

Can you Clarify this? I mean, you say it, but it seems to not be backed up.


Maybe Mengsk abandoned her to the Zerg, but given the cutscene we saw, even if he had sent people to save her they would have arrived too late and been brutally murdered for nothing.
Why yes, without evac being set up, Kerrigan and her forces were unable to be evac'd in the last moments. The solution would have been for evac to have been set up before hand. Of course, you're also ignoring the multiple statements to the effect that, oh yes, she could have been saved: Mengsk, however, actively wanted her dead. Thus, he didn't provide the support she needed in order to extract everyone.


And as for the Heroes you sighted, two of them were murdered in cold blood by Kerrigan out of spite, one was ALMOST murdered for not managing to grab Raynor from one of the most deadly assassins in the universe, and the last one had his life completely ruined by her, a fact which she GLOATED TO HIM ABOUT.
A) Kerrigan isn't a hero, which I said.
B) Not having complete control, it's a thing.
C) Hero's killing another hero is a thing that can happen, especially when one hero is working for a villain (Mengsk). That's not what happened, but I don't think it would be impossible for Raynor to be in a situation where he would need to kill a hero.


Besides, for all the prophecy bull**** {which I find annoying as far as plot points go, since prophecies in general are overdone, and tend to make Mary Sues.}, the fact is that the best case scenario was not what happened, it's Zeratul killing Kerrigan before he even finds the prophecy.

Seriously, it was a major plot point that the Artifact's activation resurrected Amon. So if Zeratul had successfully sliced her head off the ENTIRE STORY WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT FINE RIGHT THERE.
I'd point out that Kerrigan was searching for the Artifacts herself. Given what we know, it's quite possible that she would have then done something to resurrect Amon, and then a bad end(due to the swarm still being at least somewhat in control of Amon).

Plus, given what happened when Zeratul and Kerrigan fight...yeah, he can't take her. She walks away unwounded. Zeratul is at least slightly so, and she has a lot of forces in the area.


Also the reason I call Raynor evil isn't because he is rebelling again Mengsk, who is a legitimately oppressive dictator. It's WHEN he's rebelling that's my problem. For most of Wings of Liberty he doesn't know about the prophecy or anything else, all he knows is that there is a genocidal war going on against the whole human race. And rather than drop his personal grudges and start fighting Zerg, he instead goes around robbing the Holy Sites of the Tal'Darim {he has no way of knowing they are bad guys.} killing Dominion soldiers who are only doing their jobs, and overall weakening the resistance efforts against the Zerg.
Actually, he does have some reason to know about the sects of Protoss, and when exactly he learns about the prophecy is murky. In fact, I believe it's quite difficult to actually go against Mengsk until you find out more about both. Plus, you're ignoring that without Raynor's actions, the Zerg would have gotten at least 2 of the 3 pieces to the artifact. One of them on a world abandoned by the Dominion as well.

Also, the dominion soldiers he kills just doing their jobs...like herding political prisoners? Oh, and shooting people for not wanting to go to death camps/be slaves. Oh, I know. They're also doing such vital activities as going to a dead world to look for potential incriminating evidence(truly, vital in a war).


And don't even get me started on his blatant
violation of parley.
Considering Mengsk's track record regarding honorable behavior, that's more "not being brain-dead".


In regards to Kerrigan, even if we buy into the idea that Blizzard never meant for her to be a hero, that just makes things worse, because it more or less means that after all the horrific crimes she had commited against innocent people in a glorified temper tantrum, that Blizzard thinks that just murdering someone who might deserve it means that her getting off scot free is a reasonable ending.

...horribly OC revenge fic....

I might have actually felt some sympathy for her then. Instead she gets off scot free, without ever feeling an ounce of guilt for her atrocities.
As long as we ignore what's shown, yes.

I mean, excepting the civilians on the world who died because an invasion is never going to be clean, who does she kill who's innocent(after Wings of Liberty)? The closest Toss Encampment, of course that's complicated by the fact that the Toss will attack her on sight, and consists of warriors. So, yes, she kills enemies. That's something one tends to do in a war(and she is at war: with the Toss and the Dominion).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, except 40k actually does have heroes. The God-Emperor, Cain, and others.

No more than Kerrigan is. In fact, there's a lot of parallels here... Genocidal insanely powerful psionic trying to carve out territory for themselves....

Of course, a lot of that was... glossed over... in the propaganda. But then, listen to that and Mengsk is as pure as the driven snow.

Valarian, on the other hand, is one of the most truly evil people of the entire piece. Everything he does, up to and including betraying his father, has been for one purpose and one purpose only: To put himself on the Throne of Man, because he couldn't wait for Dear Old Dad to kick the bucket without pushing first. There's absolutely NOTHING indicating he's actually going to KEEP any promises. He may well be even WORSE than his father, just a lot smoother.

Valarian is an opportunistic little wannabe-tyrant who is playing to the crowd (i.e. Matt Horner and crew). He realizes that Raynor isn't going to be a problem once his father is gone, and Raynor certainly isn't going to pose any political threat to him. It's Matt Horner he's going to have to play, and Horner's naiveté is going to make that child's play until it is too late.

If anything, the only heroes of the piece are Warfield, who gets killed, and Matt Horner, who is ignorant of the consequences of actions. And I'd hesitate to call Matt a 'hero' except he at least tries to give a damn.

Raynor is no hero. He gave that up long ago. Oh, sure, he did some good deeds along the way (New Fulsome, Haven), but it was Horner who pushed him into doing it. And he fully admits it in the cutscene after New Fulsome.

Kerrigan is an anti-hero one short step from villian. Sure, she did a couple of good deeds when her conscience was pricked (things the old queen of blades would NEVER have done, so we are looking at some character development here), but she's a monster and freely admits it.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that ANYONE is supposed to be a 'hero'. Not all stories have heroes. Some just have plain ol' folks trying to make a living in the 'verse. In fact, there's several parallels you can draw between Malcom Reynolds and Jim Raynor, as far as personality goes. Except Mal would've probably put a bullet in Kerrigan's head when she tried to bust him out of prison, no matter how much he was in love with her.

[Anarion]

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that ANYONE is supposed to be a 'hero'. Not all stories have heroes. Some just have plain ol' folks trying to make a living in the 'verse. In fact, there's several parallels you can draw between Malcom Reynolds and Jim Raynor, as far as personality goes. Except Mal would've probably put a bullet in Kerrigan's head when she tried to bust him out of prison, no matter how much he was in love with her.

Arguably, that's what Raynor should have done too. Might still do it at some point, if it comes to that.

[Surrealistik]

Can you Clarify this? I mean, you say it, but it seems to not be backed up.

Clarify Tassadar meeting the criteria, or Raynor failing to do so?

The former seems pretty obvious to me; classic and literal self-sacrifice in order destroy a great threat to the sector, and Terrans and Protoss alike. I can't see anything notably unethical about his actions either.

As for the latter, can you point to anything in SC2 that qualifies Raynor as a hero, _in balance_, per that criteria?

[Anarion]

As for the latter, can you point to anything in SC2 that qualifies Raynor as a hero, _in balance_, per that criteria?

Yes. He didn't kill Kerrigan.

[Winthur]

Hi I'm Chris and my vision for Legacy of the Void has a ressurected Tassadar and Zeratul perform a Fusion Dance and destroy the Dark Voice with the might of their Mega Spirit Bomb channeled by all living creatures including the good Zerg xD

[FujinAkari]

Uh... I don't think we can fairly assess the problems with an incomplete story. The story is only 2/3rds told and, classically, this is supposed to be when things look the grimmest.

[Surrealistik]

Yes. He didn't kill Kerrigan.

He didn't kill Kerrigan as much for his own reasons as for Zeratul's prophesy. The prophesy itself is pretty tentative justification for everything ostensibly done in its name in light of the past and present given that Raynor doesn't actually have concrete evidence of its validity or inevitability, let's face it.

In the meanwhile, per Lord, yeah, he engages in some pretty heinous and questionable stuff, while what few truly heroic actions he undertakes are largely compelled by externals, not his own conscience.

But I will say this much: I can at least appreciate the argument, and it's _definitely_ more compelling than the utterly mistaken notion that Raynor 'stuck to his principles.'

[Tavar]

Clarify Tassadar meeting the criteria, or Raynor failing to do so?

The former seems pretty obvious to me; classic and literal self-sacrifice in order destroy a great threat to the sector, and Terrans and Protoss alike. I can't see anything notably unethical about his actions either.

As for the latter, can you point to anything in SC2 that qualifies Raynor as a hero, _in balance_, per that criteria?

Glassing populated planets isn't bad? Nor is starting a civil war during a war for survival? Both of those are thing being laid at Raynor's/Kerrigan's feet as to why they aren't heroes.

Hell, Kerrigan goes through a bit of self-sacrifice. Sure, she survives, but living with your choices can be more difficult than the reverse.


As for Raynor, eh. I don't see him as a heroic figure, largely because heroes are made by glossing over the fact that they aren't perfect, and Raynor's flaws are a bit too visible. I don't see him as a villain, though, which seems to be what others are saying.


Valarian, on the other hand, is one of the most truly evil people of the entire piece. Everything he does, up to and including betraying his father, has been for one purpose and one purpose only: To put himself on the Throne of Man, because he couldn't wait for Dear Old Dad to kick the bucket without pushing first. There's absolutely NOTHING indicating he's actually going to KEEP any promises. He may well be even WORSE than his father, just a lot smoother.

Valarian is an opportunistic little wannabe-tyrant who is playing to the crowd (i.e. Matt Horner and crew). He realizes that Raynor isn't going to be a problem once his father is gone, and Raynor certainly isn't going to pose any political threat to him. It's Matt Horner he's going to have to play, and Horner's naiveté is going to make that child's play until it is too late.

This is one of those "alt-character" interpertations, born not out of anything we see in canon, but from "how could we make this thing as dark and pointless as possible" isn't it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is one of those "alt-character" interpertations, born not out of anything we see in canon, but from "how could we make this thing as dark and pointless as possible" isn't it?

Not really.

He's flat out admitted on camera that he wants to prove that he's a better emperor than his father. He's running on pure Ambition. Every other move he's made has been to further that ambition.

When she wanted to push the hacker and Valarian backed her down... it wasn't because of any altruistic reason, it was because he wanted to get the job done so he could go on with achieving his own goals, and she wasn't going to go along with it until it was done.

The whole thing about the innocent civilians in the final missions? First, playing to Matt Horner. Second, minimizing collateral damage so he can rebuild HIS city after she gets done trashing it. Any altruism takes a distant third.

And finally? Anyone who is jonsing to prove themselves to be better? Are the ones who tend to end up really, really f**ked up. Take a look at the line of Caesers.

[GolemsVoice]

Eh, I can see Valarian going either way. He said he wants to pove to his peole that he's a better emperor than his father, yes, but I understood that to mean that he also wants to be a nicer one, meaning no more concentration camps and less censorship. He's also very young and yes, very ambitious, but wanting to kill the Zerg dead isn't exactly the wort goal.

Of course, all of that could prove to be a front.


Also, I like what Kerrigan said to Mengsk before she obliterated him: "You've made us all into monsters." Which is very much true. Mengsk goes from ruthless mercenary to even more rúthless emperor, Raynor goes from small-time rebel trying to survive against the Zerg to washed-up leader of a rebellion driven to kill Mengsk at any cost. And Kerrigan, well...

[Tavar]

Not really.

He's flat out admitted on camera that he wants to prove that he's a better emperor than his father. He's running on pure Ambition. Every other move he's made has been to further that ambition.

When she wanted to push the hacker and Valarian backed her down... it wasn't because of any altruistic reason, it was because he wanted to get the job done so he could go on with achieving his own goals, and she wasn't going to go along with it until it was done.

The whole thing about the innocent civilians in the final missions? First, playing to Matt Horner. Second, minimizing collateral damage so he can rebuild HIS city after she gets done trashing it. Any altruism takes a distant third.

And finally? Anyone who is jonsing to prove themselves to be better? Are the ones who tend to end up really, really f**ked up. Take a look at the line of Caesers.
Evidence for the civilian things? Beyond the fact that you have decided he's evil, and so every decision must be evil.

Yes, he says he wants to prove himself a better emperor, but he also says he wants to prove himself a better man. That could be ambition talking, or it could be other things.

Hell, I'd point out that he spent a significant time with Kerrigan, who is a confirmed casual mind-reader. If he was really going down that road, and was the same as the father, then why wouldn't she know that.

So, yes, I can see him being evil, but doing so requires a couple leaps, and also assuming that he's lied the entire time he's shown. Possible, but distinctly improbably, in my opinion. Moreover, it assumes that several mind-readers opposed to his father/his policies have no issues with him.

[Tectonic Robot]

Starcraft I's story was good, though?

[Guancyto]

It might be more accurate to say that while Valerian having been lying and evil all along would not be a particularly surprising twist, there is not much in the way of evidence for it at the moment.

Kerrigan and Raynor are basically bad guys, though. It's a shame. Fenix would be rolling in his grave if he hadn't wanted to die in battle.

Edit: Starcraft 1's story was nifty, and frankly made a lot more sense.

[Traab]

There is a much wider area than good/bad to work with. Raynor may not be some intergalactic savior, but he is far from a bad guy. Yes he spent a lot of time roaming the galaxy stealing artifacts from creepy fringe groups of protoss and gathering resources, he had to, raising armies doesnt come cheap ya know. He spent a significant amount of time trying to help out the agria colony deal with its zerg issues. He helped them escape the first world, brought them to a new world, then helped them even more. (Depending on which choice you had him take) If you chose the crazy voodoo spectre side, you even broke out a large number of political prisoners whose only crime was to not be a mindless drone in service to mengsk.

Meanwhile the legitimate authority of mengsk couldnt be bothered to get off his ass and do anything useful. He was too busy sacrificing his empires outer worlds to the zerg, concentrating his efforts on squashing a bug in raynor, and throttling the press so only his propaganda could be heard.

[GolemsVoice]

There's also the question: does Raynor have to be a big, shiny hero? Why should he? I'd still argue that he's a good guy. but he's not an angel, nor does he live in an universe where such persons are very likely to succeed.

[Surrealistik]

Glassing populated planets isn't bad? Nor is starting a civil war during a war for survival? Both of those are thing being laid at Raynor's/Kerrigan's feet as to why they aren't heroes.

Hell, Kerrigan goes through a bit of self-sacrifice. Sure, she survives, but living with your choices can be more difficult than the reverse.


As for Raynor, eh. I don't see him as a heroic figure, largely because heroes are made by glossing over the fact that they aren't perfect, and Raynor's flaws are a bit too visible. I don't see him as a villain, though, which seems to be what others are saying.

I'm not saying he's a villain, but he's definitely no hero, and he has certainly flirted with villainy at least; that's the extent of my position. As for Kerrigan, she is unambiguously evil.

[Guancyto]

There's also the question: does Raynor have to be a big, shiny hero? Why should he? I'd still argue that he's a good guy. but he's not an angel, nor does he live in an universe where such persons are very likely to succeed.

He openly admits he's not a good guy if you side with Tosh in Wings of Liberty; he identifies with Tosh, who is only after revenge and doesn't care what comes afterward, rather than with Horner who genuinely cares about building a better future.

WoL!Raynor wasn't really a good guy, but he was a hero (anti-hero, if you like) because they aren't straight co-requisites. HotS!Raynor basically throws out all justification for being any sort of hero when he helps Kerrigan ravage Korhal to get at one guy.

He's fought alongside Dominion troops by that point, and alongside their chief military commander. He knows they're not evil like their emperor is, but Mengsk takes priority.

[Tavar]

I'm not saying he's a villain, but he's definitely no hero, and he has certainly flirted with villainy at least; that's the extent of my position. As for Kerrigan, she is unambiguously evil.

Again, how is he different from Tassadar? Not seeing a big difference besides the sacrifice in the end, but that seems more lack of means rather than key personality differences.



He openly admits he's not a good guy if you side with Tosh in Wings of Liberty; he identifies with Tosh, who is only after revenge and doesn't care what comes afterward, rather than with Horner who genuinely cares about building a better future.

WoL!Raynor wasn't really a good guy, but he was a hero (anti-hero, if you like) because they aren't straight co-requisites. HotS!Raynor basically throws out all justification for being any sort of hero when he helps Kerrigan ravage Korhal to get at one guy.

He's fought alongside Dominion troops by that point, and alongside their chief military commander. He knows they're not evil like their emperor is, but Mengsk takes priority.
Must....resist....Godwin's Law....despite....applicability....

[Aotrs Commander]

I think you're missing the point here. The Empire wins in Empire Strikes Back. Xykon took over Azure City. Sometimes the villain wins. Sometimes people even like the villain because the villain has style and confidence. The story hasn't ended yet, we don't know what's going to happen to Kerrigan in the end of everything.

See also: every RPG with an evil path, all NOD campaigns in C&C, TIE Fighter, Dungeon Keeper, Overlord, Evil Genius...

It's okay for sometimes a game to be about the bad guys and let them win. Heck, had they not, I would have taken as much umbrage as I did with Universe at War's abyssmal attempt at the Heirarchy campaign.

[Guancyto]

Must....resist....Godwin's Law....despite....applicability....

It was pretty well established among the Allies that just knocking off the man at the top wouldn't have done the job, at minimum his right and left hands would have had to go, and probably his whole cabinet.

It might be conservation of detail (he certainly needs some delegation), but his right hand is... Warfield, who Raynor knows personally and knows to be mostly dedicated to protecting humanity. His presumed successor is... Valerian, who is not nearly so bad as his father either.

Thanks to Media Blitz and actually being really bad at PR, Mengsk doesn't really have a lot in the way of popular support either, it seems like. His Dominion is already coming apart at the seams.

So, uh, yeah, putting a bullet in Hitler's head would totally solve the problem in this case. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

It was pretty well established among the Allies that just knocking off the man at the top wouldn't have done the job, at minimum his right and left hands would have had to go, and probably his whole cabinet.

It might be conservation of detail (he certainly needs some delegation), but his right hand is... Warfield, who Raynor knows personally and knows to be mostly dedicated to protecting humanity. His presumed successor is... Valerian, who is not nearly so bad as his father either.

Thanks to Media Blitz and actually being really bad at PR, Mengsk doesn't really have a lot in the way of popular support either, it seems like. His Dominion is already coming apart at the seams.

So, uh, yeah, putting a bullet in Hitler's head would totally solve the problem in this case. :smalltongue:
Well, actually, I was drawing in a bit more: there's working with questionable sides(Kerrigan/Soviets).

But, more importantly, while Mengsk isn't necessarily liked, he still had a decent amount of popular support, especially since he could point to his defeat of the Zerg(no, Raynor and co totally weren't involved). Plus, remember, he had essentially mind-controlled forces protecting him. Who cares about PR? They don't. Remember, Mengsk, while he does like the Adoration of the public, needs it quite a bit less than some other regimes, because he has quite a bit of control over the Military and official avenues of power.

Yeah, all you needed to do was change the man on top. But doing that isn't easy. And, hell, that's what happened: you don't destroy the Dominions political structure after you kill Mengsk, you just put Valarian in charge, who starts pushing reforms through.

Yeah, a lot would die in the attack on the capital, but it's important to realize it was just that: an attack on the capital, not the Dominion as a whole. The scale is bigger than hitting a capital on Earth in the current day, but that seems more a result of inter-planetary nature of the civilizations.

[Anarion]

He didn't kill Kerrigan as much for his own reasons as for Zeratul's prophesy. The prophesy itself is pretty tentative justification for everything ostensibly done in its name in light of the past and present given that Raynor doesn't actually have concrete evidence of its validity or inevitability, let's face it.

In the meanwhile, per Lord, yeah, he engages in some pretty heinous and questionable stuff, while what few truly heroic actions he undertakes are largely compelled by externals, not his own conscience.

But I will say this much: I can at least appreciate the argument, and it's _definitely_ more compelling than the utterly mistaken notion that Raynor 'stuck to his principles.'

So, let's go back to your hero definition.



My definition of a hero can be roughly approximated as someone who acts altruistically (self-sacrifice for the sake of others) for the advancement or achievement of a just cause in a way that is ethical, especially in the face of meaningful opposition or adversity.


So, first, self-sacrifice for the sake of others. Present: Raynor pretty much never acts for himself, as even his love interest is about saving Kerrigan for her sake (always has been, for that matter). He acts for the Protoss when Zeratul asks him, and he thinks he's acting for humanity by getting rid of Mensk. He also sacrifices his time and resources for the people of Agria, and arguably for Warfield as well once they're fighting together. Even in his worst moments, the confidence that Raynor would come to the aid of someone innocent asking for help was always present.

For a just cause: Questionable. The whole save the galaxy prophecy from Zeratul counts for sure, but you rightly point out the presence of mixed motivations. I do think that overthrowing Mensk is a just cause, though harm caused in pursuing that end might be a problem. I also think that saving Kerrigan is a just cause, albeit a futile one.

In a way that is ethical: Here's the big problem. The Starcraft universe doesn't have this. You can't talk people down, or zergs or protoss for that matter. Everything bigger than a marine machinegun causes collateral damage and everyone of any note in the Starcraft universe has killed tons of people. Having said all that, I think this is where Jim Raynor's general adherence to principle does matter. Everyone kills, and kills a lot in Starcraft. That's not our judge of character. Nor is the stability of a corrupt empire. Where Raynor does stick to ethics is his judge of character. He won't shoot someone he honestly thinks is good or innocent. He won't shoot someone because of their faction, their race, or any other inherent trait. He shoots people because they're trying to shoot him or because of the bad things they've done. That's as good a code of ethics as you're going to find in Starcraft.

And, yeah, if that's not good enough for some posters here, then I'm willing to accept that the series has no heroes at all. But it's good enough for me.

In the face of meainginful opposition: Got plenty of that.

[Surrealistik]

Again, how is he different from Tassadar? Not seeing a big difference besides the sacrifice in the end, but that seems more lack of means rather than key personality differences.

Tassadar's legacy, from beginning to end is rife with self-sacrifice to do the right thing in spite personal loss, orders to the contrary and great adversity.

He tirelessly advocated to preserve the Terrans despite the scorn of his superiors.

On Chau Sara, he only sterilized the planet when he was sure the Terran situation was untenable and only with utmost reluctance.

Despite his orders, and having good reason to do so per its heavy Zerg infestation, his conscience forbade him to genocide the Terrans on Mar Sara until he had undertaken every effort to assist them, including engaging the Zerg on the ground, putting himself and his men at risk. As per Chau Sara, only when the situation was hopeless did he level the planet.

Then there was Antega Prime where he offered the Terrans an alliance and allowed them to escape, again contrary to his orders of immediate extermination, etc...

He defied the Conclave on the basis that their edicts were not only immoral, but ultimately self-destructive given the Overmind's sole vulnerability to the banished Dark Templar and the Void. Besides, he ultimately _did_ surrender to the Conclave in order to stop civil war namely because he could not countenance the mutual slaughter that would result. Even so, he remained true to his greater responsibility to end the Zerg threat, and worked to ensure that Protoss and Terrans might prevail against their aggression, only giving himself up once the Dark Templar had been rescued.

Consequently, he sacrificed his honour, reputation and standing with the Conclave, and made a hated criminal of himself in order to ensure the preservation of both races.

Lastly, even if there was no other way to defeat the Overmind, that doesn't obviate the nobility and heroism of his personal and ultimate sacrifice.


@ Anarion: Raynor's motives are as much selfish as they are selfless, if not more so. I don't quite buy your angle on that account. As stated before, his 'selfless' acts generally are the outcome of external forces of persuasion, not his own conscience, and he even admits to it.

Also, as above, I think it's pretty obvious that Tassadar does meet my criterion solidly, and is a true, pretty well indisputable hero.

[GolemsVoice]

Raynor might also be one of the few people who never directly attacked civilians just because they happened to hang around the enemy's base (or even, in the case of scientists in the labs) directly working for Mengsk by providing him with research. He destroy's armed opposition, and he's not above fighting dirty, but that still makes him nicer than most of the universe he's in.

Even the Protoss, aside from Tassadar, are pretty ruthless when it comes to fullfilling their objectives.

[Tavar]

Lastly, even if there was no other way to defeat the Overmind, that doesn't obviate the nobility and heroism of his personal and ultimate sacrifice.
Didn't say it did. I was saying that just because Raynor didn't do a similar act wasn't a mark against him.

But, essentially, what I see is taking all of Tassadar's acts from the best like, and Raynors from the worst.

I mean, you're essentially ignoring everything Raynor did in the first game, and not applying the same arguements you do for Tassadar towards Raynor. I mean, both the Confederacy and the Dominion are just as destructive as the Conclave, and yet it's wrong to oppose them because doing so is selfish.

[Surrealistik]

Didn't say it did. I was saying that just because Raynor didn't do a similar act wasn't a mark against him.

But, essentially, what I see is taking all of Tassadar's acts from the best like, and Raynors from the worst.

I mean, you're essentially ignoring everything Raynor did in the first game, and not applying the same arguements you do for Tassadar towards Raynor. I mean, both the Confederacy and the Dominion are just as destructive as the Conclave, and yet it's wrong to oppose them because doing so is selfish.

I'm not ignoring what Raynor did in the first game, but what Raynor does, or does not do subsequently pretty well deprives him of a bona fide hero status in my view. The equivalency, if any is to be had, between their actions in the face of the Dominion and the Conclave is extraordinarily weak.

For one, Tassadar never perpetuated nearly the same kind of slaughter against his own people, and even surrendered himself so that bloody civil war might be avoided; he couldn't bear the thought of it.

For another, the Conclave was a _proven_ existential threat in that they sought to destroy or at least uphold the banishment of the Dark Templar despite them being the only hope they had to stop the Zerg. The prophecy by comparison (which asserts that Kerrigan must be preserved) is vastly more nebulous and much less rooted in concrete fact. Who knows how accurate it is or whether or not its assertions are inevitable should Kerrigan die.


What I described defines pretty much _all_ of Tassadars actions. What would you ascribe to him that obviates any of what I listed?


And no, I'm not counting Raynor's failure to make a suicidal sacrifice against him.

[Anarion]

What I described defines pretty much _all_ of Tassadars actions. What would you ascribe to him that obviates any of what I listed?


He killed innocent terrans in every facility whenever he needed to obtain information or move through certain areas. His naivete was the only reason the overmind even obtained the location of Aiur. His actions directly caused the civil war that he felt so bad about, and his own "noble" surrender directly led to the wholesale slaughter of innocent protoss who were fighting for their own formally recognized government and holding the prison area.

He also squandered the strongest protoss fleet in the galaxy and trapped himself on Char, though that's more poor tactics than lack of heroism.

[Tavar]

I'm not ignoring what Raynor did in the first game, but what Raynor does, or does not do subsequently pretty well deprives him of a bona fide hero status in my view. The equivalency, if any is to be had, between their actions in the face of the Dominion and the Conclave is extraordinarily weak.

For one, Tassadar never perpetuated nearly the same kind of slaughter against his own people, and even surrendered himself so that bloody civil war might be avoided; he couldn't bear the thought of it.
An act that actually didn't actually prevent the civil war, and if it had it would have resulted in the Death of the Protoss race, as without Tassadar you can't kill the Overmind/break the Zerg. So it is now unheroic to be able to see the consequences of your actions?

Futhermore, you're essentially saying it's unheroic to fight a war, no matter the reason, unless your name is Tassadar, which I view as remarkably silly.


For another, the Conclave was a _proven_ existential threat in that they sought to destroy or at least uphold the banishment of the Dark Templar despite it being the only hope they had. The prophecy by comparison (which asserts that Kerrigan must be preserved) is vastly more nebulous and much less rooted in concrete fact. Who knows how accurate it is or whether or not its assertions are inevitable should Kerrigan die.
And this is what I'm talking about. You're basically saying "well, yes, given the situation he made a good choice, but what if the situation was completely different". Which is just....what?


Also, the DT being their only hope wasn't exactly proven by any means: the only time they actually acted, it ended up being a bit of a disaster.

Meanwhile, the Dominion actively hunts Raynor for, essentially, not being a monster, and actively commits atrocities against it's citizens. But, well, it's the government, so going against it is wrong, because you should support atrocities in order to be a hero, Raynor.

[Surrealistik]

An act that actually didn't actually prevent the civil war, and if it had it would have resulted in the Death of the Protoss race, as without Tassadar you can't kill the Overmind/break the Zerg. So it is now unheroic to be able to see the consequences of your actions?

It actually pretty well did. There was initial fighting, but Tassadar's surrender ended it. The only real subsequent loss of life among the Conclave at the hands of Tassadar or his allies would be his jailors.


Futhermore, you're essentially saying it's unheroic to fight a war, no matter the reason, unless your name is Tassadar, which I view as remarkably silly.

No.


And this is what I'm talking about. You're basically saying "well, yes, given the situation he made a good choice, but what if the situation was completely different". Which is just....what?

Also, the DT being their only hope wasn't exactly proven by any means: the only time they actually acted, it ended up being a bit of a disaster.

Meanwhile, the Dominion actively hunts Raynor for, essentially, not being a monster, and actively commits atrocities against it's citizens. But, well, it's the government, so going against it is wrong, because you should support atrocities in order to be a hero, Raynor.

Actually, I'm saying that no other method had yet been determined effective for destroying the Zerg hive mind, which is absolutely factual. Outside of Void weapons and Dark Templar psionics, it is effectively immortal. Further, since 'severing the head' was the only approach that would have been feasible for stopping them as presented by the canon, Tassadar's actions absolutely have more concrete justification and basis, vis a vis a nebulous unproven prophesy.

To reiterate, Raynor's actions are motivated basically by his personal love interest in Kerrigan, vengeance (not idealism), and said tentative prophesy. About the only thing noble about his incentives is perhaps the guilt he feels about Kerrigan, but even that is misguided.



He killed innocent terrans in every facility whenever he needed to obtain information or move through certain areas. His naivete was the only reason the overmind even obtained the location of Aiur. His actions directly caused the civil war that he felt so bad about, and his own "noble" surrender directly led to the wholesale slaughter of innocent protoss who were fighting for their own formally recognized government and holding the prison area.

He also squandered the strongest protoss fleet in the galaxy and trapped himself on Char, though that's more poor tactics than lack of heroism.

Which innocent Terrans?

You can't really fault Tassadar for not knowing about the Overmind's ability to do an impromptu Vulcan mind meld with Zeratul while he was hacking Zasz apart as an unheroic action.

As for the civil war:

#1: It was limited if not virtually non-existent because Tassadar voluntarily surrendered

#2: It came about chiefly as a consequence of Conclave aggression in response to Tassadar taking necessary action to save the sector on the basis of concrete facts (the proven ability of the Dark Templar to destroy the Overmind/Cerebrates).

Slaughter of the Jailors: Tassadar was not responsible to start. Second, even if he were, better they die than there be a full scale civil war which again, happened largely because of dogmatic Conclave recalcitrance in the face of oblivion.

[Anarion]

Which innocent Terrans?


Several facility missions going through Char, I'll look them up later.



You can't really fault Tassadar for not knowing about the Overmind's ability to do an impromptu Vulcan mind meld with Zeratul while he was hacking Zasz apart as an unheroic action.


Sure I can: he was directly instructed to come home and instead he disobeyed orders, went off the radar, and pushed Zeratul to fight, even though he didn't actually consider all the potential consequences of his actions when dealing with multiple different psionic beings.



As for the civil war:

#1: It was limited if not virtually non-existent because Tassadar voluntarily surrendered

#2: It came about chiefly as a consequence of Conclave aggression in response to Tassadar taking necessary action to save the sector on the basis of concrete facts (the proven ability of the Dark Templar to destroy the Overmind/Cerebrates).

Slaughter of the Jailors: Tassadar was not responsible to start. Second, even if he were, better they die than there be a full scale civil war which again, happened largely because of dogmatic Conclave recalcitrance in the face of oblivion.

Oh? The jail was a full-scale assault. It's better guarded in the game than the conclave headquarters, and the leaders of the conclave were present at the time.

[Tavar]

Are you forgetting the mission where you have to free Tassadar? That's the civil war. Hell, it even mentions that there's quite a bit of hard fighting, and in the end Tassadar wipes out the entire Conclave.


Also, I forgot about Tassadar's initial defection, which was on even flimsier ground that Raynor's, and one that brought him into contact with the Dark Templar, beings he should view as the enemy. But it turned out alright in the end, so he's a hero.

[Surrealistik]

Several facility missions going through Char, I'll look them up later.

If it's not in the wiki, but rather the outcome of a specific playthrough it's not canon.


Sure I can: he was directly instructed to come home and instead he disobeyed orders, went off the radar, and pushed Zeratul to fight, even though he didn't actually consider all the potential consequences of his actions when dealing with multiple different psionic beings.

At best it's, as you said, naivety, not conscious malevolence or a distinctly anti-heroic action. Further, besides, the destruction of Zasz it confirmed the effectiveness of the Void against the Hive Mind, rather than leaving that a point of ambiguity.


Oh? The jail was a full-scale assault. It's better guarded in the game than the conclave headquarters, and the leaders of the conclave were present at the time.

Even if we presume the worst, that the assault on the jail was an abstraction of full scale civil war, again, the Conclave is the aggressor and largely responsible as they continued to persecute Tassadar in spite of his diplomatic overtures and attempts to get them onside, despite having proof that the Dark Templars could destroy the hive mind when nothing else could. There was nothing more that could be done peaceably.

His options are:

#1: Let the sector be overrun by an unstoppable force.

#2: Stop the Conclave from interfering.



Also, I forgot about Tassadar's initial defection, which was on even flimsier ground that Raynor's, and one that brought him into contact with the Dark Templar, beings he should view as the enemy. But it turned out alright in the end, so he's a hero.

Tassadar's defection only really came about when the Conclave adamantly refused to make nice with the Dark Templar despite their necessity to the survival of all.


Anyways, fun as this dogpile is, I have to attend a meeting; be back later tonight.

[Anarion]

If it's not in the wiki, but rather the outcome of a specific playthrough it's not canon.


What, why? The wiki doesn't list any of the collateral damage attributed to Raynor or the destabilization of government. In fact, almost none of the "evil" actions attributed to Raynor in this thread are canon apparently.



At best it's, as you said, naivety, not conscious malevolence or a distinctly anti-heroic action. Further, besides, the destruction of Zasz it confirmed the effectiveness of the Void against the Hive Mind, rather than leaving that a point of ambiguity.


You call it naivete, I can call it recklessness and disregard for others.



Even if we presume the worst, that the assault on the jail was an abstraction of full scale civil war, again, the Conclave is the aggressor and largely responsible as they continued to persecute Tassadar in spite of his diplomatic overtures and attempts to get them onside, despite having proof that the Dark Templars could destroy the hive mind when nothing else could. There was nothing more that could be done peaceably.




Tassadar's defection only really came about when the Conclave adamantly refused to make nice with the Dark Templar despite their necessity to the survival of all.


Raynor was hunted and persecuted by Mensk for years while Mensk did nothing about the Zerg threat and let his own planets fall to the Zerg and his facilities become corrupted to produce dangerous hybrids.

At what point did he have more choice than Tassadar?



Anyways, fun as this dogpile is, I have to attend a meeting; be back later this tonight.

Enjoy the meeting, this has been an interesting discussion, it will be here when you get back.

[Tavar]

Even if we presume the worst, that the assault on the jail was an abstraction of full scale civil war, again, the Conclave is the aggressor and largely responsible as they continued to persecute Tassadar in spite of his diplomatic overtures and attempts to get them onside, despite having proof that the Dark Templars could destroy the hive mind when nothing else could. There was nothing more that could be done peaceably.

His options are:

#1: Let the sector be overrun by an unstoppable force.

#2: Stop the Conclave from interfering.
So, if the other side is the aggressor, it's ok. Any this doesn't apply to Raynor vs the Confederacy/Dominon because....oh, right, we decided Toss=good, Terran=bad.

Also, the Conclave didn't have proof. Tassadar tries at one point to get proof, but failed.




Tassadar's defection only really came about when the Conclave adamantly refused to make nice with the Dark Templar despite their necessity to the survival of all.
What necessity? He defects after Tarsonis, before he meets the DT. And even after meeting them, they still don't demonstrate their necessity for some time, especially to the Conclave(in fact, the one time he tries to, his orders fail to have any effect).

[GolemsVoice]

The discussion has indeed been very interesting. Sadly, it's been years since I played Starcraft I, so the story is pretty nebulous for me.

[Guancyto]

Well, actually, I was drawing in a bit more: there's working with questionable sides(Kerrigan/Soviets).

Uh. There's plenty of argument to be made for that having been necessary, but precious little for it being heroic. If alliance with Kerrigan is genuinely Raynor's only option, then it's neither heroic nor unheroic, it's really just a progression of cause to effect.

If he had other options or if his goals would have been accomplished with or without his assistance... yeah. Not good guy material.

(Also note that Churchill, of the famous "if Hitler invaded Hell" quote, was all for taking on the Soviets right around the second Germany surrendered.)


But, more importantly, while Mengsk isn't necessarily liked, he still had a decent amount of popular support, especially since he could point to his defeat of the Zerg(no, Raynor and co totally weren't involved). Plus, remember, he had essentially mind-controlled forces protecting him. Who cares about PR? They don't. Remember, Mengsk, while he does like the Adoration of the public, needs it quite a bit less than some other regimes, because he has quite a bit of control over the Military and official avenues of power.

Mengsk's regime really rested on three pillars. His legitimacy was derived from being the successor state to the Confederacy, which fell apart against the threat of the Zerg. His exigency came from unity and strength against external, existential threats - mostly the Zerg, and that he was the best man to stand against them. His direct power was not military in nature, but mostly rested on his control of the Ghost program. The Dominion military answered to him only indirectly; that's what Warfield was even for.

What with there being No Audio Editing In The Future, his past (and his craziness) coming out during Media Blitz basically left him with no claim to anything but his personal assassins. You can't claim to be humanity's protector against the Zerg when you're the one turning it on them in the first place, you can't claim to be the most suitable leader when you're prepared to annihilate everyone if you can't be in charge, and you can't really claim to be a legitimate successor state to something you had torn apart by the Zerg.

It's a fair bet to say that during the events of Heart of the Swarm, the Dominion was marked by a desperate spree of 'accidents' for important Dominion figures. Kerrigan basically just kicked down a Jenga tower that was already toppling. Maybe she did well with that, maybe she stopped Mengsk's death spiral and the Dominion's descent into open tyranny.

Even so, Raynor didn't need to help with that, and he certainly didn't need to help her invade and slaughter her way through an entire densely-populated capital world.

[GolemsVoice]

I think it's safe to say that if Raynor and crew wouldn't have intervened, Kerrigan would have attacked the city with even less a concern for casualties. It's also, if I recall correctly, not the entire planet, but only Augustgrad, the capital city, that get's hit.

There's also the whole "hate for Mengsk" and "love for Kerrigan" thing. Raynor was a very driven man, I'm almost certain he didn't want to miss the opportunity of being at the very scene of Mengsk's demise.

[Guancyto]

Well, sure. I'm not saying it's out of character for him as presented in the context of HotS.

I'm saying that as actions go, it's a shade darker than his usual antiheroic fare. Bad guys want revenge on other bad guys all the time. (Good catch on it being the capital though.)

[GolemsVoice]

It's not the most heroic thing to do, but considering that Kerrigan would have likely done much worse without him, it's still a net win for the populace.

[darksolitaire]

"Fury. Revenge. Hatred."
- The main themes of the game.

Reading the conversation here, it seems Blizzard accomplished with HoTS what they intended to.

[Tavar]

Uh. There's plenty of argument to be made for that having been necessary, but precious little for it being heroic. If alliance with Kerrigan is genuinely Raynor's only option, then it's neither heroic nor unheroic, it's really just a progression of cause to effect.
Right: you'll note I'm arguing against it being considered an un-heroic action, not in being a heroic one.


If he had other options or if his goals would have been accomplished with or without his assistance... yeah. Not good guy material.

(Also note that Churchill, of the famous "if Hitler invaded Hell" quote, was all for taking on the Soviets right around the second Germany surrendered.)
The issue is that there are multiple sources saying "this was the only/best way, at least in the near future". But there's....nothing that says otherwise.

As for turning on Kerrigan, well, at that point why should they? Kerrigan/the Zerg are leaving(to fight something bigger), and if that happens why fight them?



Mengsk's regime really rested on three pillars. His legitimacy was derived from being the successor state to the Confederacy, which fell apart against the threat of the Zerg. His exigency came from unity and strength against external, existential threats - mostly the Zerg, and that he was the best man to stand against them. His direct power was not military in nature, but mostly rested on his control of the Ghost program. The Dominion military answered to him only indirectly; that's what Warfield was even for.

What with there being No Audio Editing In The Future, his past (and his craziness) coming out during Media Blitz basically left him with no claim to anything but his personal assassins. You can't claim to be humanity's protector against the Zerg when you're the one turning it on them in the first place, you can't claim to be the most suitable leader when you're prepared to annihilate everyone if you can't be in charge, and you can't really claim to be a legitimate successor state to something you had torn apart by the Zerg.

It's a fair bet to say that during the events of Heart of the Swarm, the Dominion was marked by a desperate spree of 'accidents' for important Dominion figures. Kerrigan basically just kicked down a Jenga tower that was already toppling. Maybe she did well with that, maybe she stopped Mengsk's death spiral and the Dominion's descent into open tyranny.

Even so, Raynor didn't need to help with that, and he certainly didn't need to help her invade and slaughter her way through an entire densely-populated capital world.
I don't think we can really say that. Oh, he's certainly bad, but there have been bad empires before hand, and remember he did have some victories he could use: the fact that his son took half the fleet wasn't really known to many, and in the end it would have been trivial to have it be his victory that broke the swarm.

Also, I'd argue about the military thing. Oh, it's somewhat indirect, because he needs people to lead it, especially since I don't believe he's a great general himself. But he seems to have a pretty strong grip on the military, outside of the ghosts.


Also, there are developer quotes to the effect that while the reveal made his empire more fragile, it did not break his hold on the government. Here (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7646518) and here (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7597722), for example. The Mengsk might not have been in as firm a position, be he wasn't tottering on the bring of collapse. Not until something was able to threaten him militarily, which the Zerg provided.

Also, as to your statements about what he can't claim...you're 100% wrong about that, given past Human history. Governments have claimed many things that they really had no claim over, but because they said it loudly, and gain events to draw people's attention away ("look, I defeated the Zerg"), well, they get away with it.

Hell, since we don't see anything to the effect of what you're saying, but do have several statements to the contrary, I wonder what support you can actually draw for your position.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uh. There's plenty of argument to be made for that having been necessary, but precious little for it being heroic. If alliance with Kerrigan is genuinely Raynor's only option, then it's neither heroic nor unheroic, it's really just a progression of cause to effect.

If he had other options or if his goals would have been accomplished with or without his assistance... yeah. Not good guy material.

(Also note that Churchill, of the famous "if Hitler invaded Hell" quote, was all for taking on the Soviets right around the second Germany surrendered.)

It is generally accepted that the Cold War started in 1945.

[Anarion]

It is generally accepted that the Cold War started in 1945.

Huh? :smallconfused: Not sure what you're answering there.

[Guancyto]

The developer quotes are interesting. Guess Mengsk was a little better at his job than he looked during the game (admittedly, he looked really bad at his job during the game; I will chalk that up to a difference between writing and intent).

The bit about Churchill was to indicate that the UK/Soviet alliance was about necessity, and that they were fully prepared to turn on each other as soon as the mutual threat was eliminated. And did. Raynor teaming up with Infested Kerrigan in the Brood War Zerg campaign is a better example of that, except with a lot more murder.

The Raynor/Kerrigan alliance in HotS was not about necessity. He wasn't there because it was the only way to x, he wasn't there to prevent civilian casualties, he was there because he wanted to be. He and Kerrigan parted, if not on good terms, at least on peaceable ones.

For finally getting his vengeance, for love of the reborn Queen of Blades, whatever. He jumped in the villain pool with Kerrigan and Mengsk at the end. He's hardly the first antihero to do so to finally get his revenge or save his love interest. Maybe he'll pull himself out of it in the third act. Might be interesting to see.

[Lord]

So, if the other side is the aggressor, it's ok. Any this doesn't apply to Raynor vs the Confederacy/Dominon because....oh, right, we decided Toss=good, Terran=bad.

Also, the Conclave didn't have proof. Tassadar tries at one point to get proof, but failed.




What necessity? He defects after Tarsonis, before he meets the DT. And even after meeting them, they still don't demonstrate their necessity for some time, especially to the Conclave(in fact, the one time he tries to, his orders fail to have any effect).

Hate to tell you this but Raynor was the aggressor in his conflict with Mengsk. He was the one who slaughtered a bunch of Sons of Korhal and Alpha Sqaudron troops to blow up and ion canon.

And Tassadar didn't defect at all. His objective was to take down the swarm, and the Conclaves preferred method was to blow up every human world that had any Zerg strain on it at all, which might well have resulted in him wiping out an entire species, who he had clearly seen to be sentient. Instead he opted to go to Char in the hopes of destroying the overmind at it's source, which is when he made contact with Zeratul.

Keep in mind that Tassadar informed the Conclave of how to kill Cerebrates before he found out that only Dark Templar psionics could slay them. They attacked the Cerebrate and killed it's physical form, but didn't possess the right techniques to take it down. From this they made the leap of logic that Tassadar had betrayed them, and sent Aldaris and Artanis to arrest him, and even after that Tassadar avoided harming any other Protoss until it became absolutely necessary.

Still, I will admit that Raynor was a heroic individual in the 1st game. The reason that he was a hero was because he was willing to put aside his personal grudge, and focus on a major threat to humanity.

In the 2nd game Raynor isn't a hero because he throws away all personal grudges against someone he really shouldn't. The prophecy is a legitimate consideration, but he should NOT be treating Kerrigan like she was some innocent victim.

She's not. She's a vicious mass murderer with some mitigating circumstances, who was a victim at one point. If he had been going to Char for the right reasons he wouldn't have just dismissed her crimes as 'not her'.

I might not even care so much if Blizzard was being consistant, but I can't help but bring to mind another story of their where a main character makes an infernal deal to get revenge. Anyone remember Warcraft III, when Arthas takes up Frostmourne.

That was treated as a moral event horizon by Blizzard, and yet Arthas was probably suffering from post dramatic stress disorder, certainly did not fully understand the full implications of the bargain he was striking until after it had happened, and had more or less watched his entire life fall apart over the course of a month or two. More than that his enemy was a brutal omnicidal complete monster who was a clear and present danger to the entire universe, and was trying to murder him and all his soldiers.

Was Arthas wrong. Yeah, sure. He probably should have never set foot in Northrend. But even after he did, he did several notable good deeds, like saving Muradin which clearly showed that there was good left in him at that point.

In contrast Kerrigan knew full well what she was doing when she reinfested herself and did it without a second thought, all for revenge on Mengsk for killing someone who would have done the same to him in an instant. She didn't CARE about Mengsks other crimes. All that mattered was her, and how her boyfriend got shot {but not really} in a fire fight. She attacked the Hyrbrid's as an afterthought, and it's debatable if she even knew about their nature as a threat to the whole universe, at least until Stukov and Narud spelled it out for her.

I guess in the end my problem isn't so much with Kerrigan and Raynor, as Blizzard's utter refusal to admit that they aren't clear cut heroes. In Brood War and the original StarCraft everyone had objectives, and you could decide for yourself who to root for.

But in StarCraft II Blizzard Hamfistedly comes down on the side of Raynor and Kerrigan, expecting us to consider them the good guys even though their actions and motivations can easily allow one to consider them self centered villains.

And while I accept that sometimes a downer ending can work, my problem is that Blizzard NEVER WRITES ANYTHING ELSE!

I'm tired of video game executives thinking that 'karma' and 'optimism' equals bad storytelling. They made it absolutely clear that StarCraft II is going to complete the series when they released it, and they haven't changed their standpoint. That's fine, I don't want the series to go on forever.

What I want is an ending where the villains pay for their crimes, the dark clouds pass, and the remaining heroes are finally able to rebuild their lives, and those who weren't lucky enough to survive at least died to ensure a brighter future.

I WANTED to see Kerrigan redeemed. I WANTED to see her work her way back up from rock bottom, regain Raynor's trust and become a better person. I WANTED to see a redemption arc for her, just as I wanted to see a redemption arc for Arthas. But no, instead Kerrigan spit on the hand of redemption and goes right back to killing people, and we're supposed to cheer for her because she's doing it for petty reasons instead of because the Dark Voice told her to.

Blizzard talks about redemption, they talk about character development. But at the end of the day the people who get 'redeemed' don't actually do anything to earn it, and usually just backslide five seconds later.

I realize that not every story is going to be cheery, or end on a happy note. I realize that not every main character is going to be a clear cut here hero. I watch Death Note and Code Geass. What I object to is when Blizzard gives me a genocidal self centered brat who thinks that her psychic powers means that she can do whatever she wants and tells me to root for her.

...You know I don't think I'm going to buy Legacy of the Void come to think of it. I liked Wings of Liberty, but Heart of the Swarm really wasted most of the potential in the story.

I think I'll go into a series with complex character with varied objectives and exciting adventures.

To heck with beating the Dark Voice, I'm going to go rewatch the series where a collection of multi colored equines face off against a Chaos Diety voiced by John De Lancie, bent on turning their own personality flaws against them. That's a story worth watching.

A cookie for he who notes my reference.

[Starbuck_II]

But in StarCraft II Blizzard Hamfistedly comes down on the side of Raynor and Kerrigan, expecting us to consider them the good guys even though their actions and motivations can easily allow one to consider them self centered villains.

And while I accept that sometimes a downer ending can work, my problem is that Blizzard NEVER WRITES ANYTHING ELSE!



Warcraft 1 and 2 disagree.
It wasn't till after Warcraft 2 that they started writing Gloom endings.
Okay, the Human ending was bittersweet in WC2 (as none of them escaped to Azeroth from the other world) but the Orc endings weren't Gloomy.

[Anarion]

For finally getting his vengeance, for love of the reborn Queen of Blades, whatever. He jumped in the villain pool with Kerrigan and Mengsk at the end. He's hardly the first antihero to do so to finally get his revenge or save his love interest. Maybe he'll pull himself out of it in the third act. Might be interesting to see.

It's jumping in the villain pool to assist a villain with taking down another villain? I guarantee you, if Raynor didn't think Mensk deserved what was happening, he wouldn't have assisted Kerrigan no matter how much he was in love with her.


Hate to tell you this but Raynor was the aggressor in his conflict with Mengsk. He was the one who slaughtered a bunch of Sons of Korhal and Alpha Sqaudron troops to blow up and ion canon.


Okay, my apologies to you here, but I think your grip on what was going on in the story is tentative at best and you're ranting a bit in your post.

So, starting with this point: Raynor wanted to leave the sons of Korhol. He attacked the troops because if he tried to leave without disabling the ion cannon, he would have been killed. All evidence suggests that his conclusion that Mensk would not have allowed him to leave is accurate.




And Tassadar didn't defect at all. His objective was to take down the swarm, and the Conclaves preferred method was to blow up every human world that had any Zerg strain on it at all, which might well have resulted in him wiping out an entire species, who he had clearly seen to be sentient. Instead he opted to go to Char in the hopes of destroying the overmind at it's source, which is when he made contact with Zeratul.


He went to Char because of Kerrigan's psychic cry for help, just like every other non-zerg being that ended up there. Tassadar's choice to go to Char at that time was disobeying direct orders to wipe out planets with zerg on them.

Furthermore, the Overmind never manifested until it reached Aiur and there was no "source" on Char to wipe out.




In the 2nd game Raynor isn't a hero because he throws away all personal grudges against someone he really shouldn't. The prophecy is a legitimate consideration, but he should NOT be treating Kerrigan like she was some innocent victim.


Stop. Just stop right here. If you want to discuss the murder of Fenix and Raynor's oath to kill Kerrigan and how Starcraft II ignored that completely, we're done. You win, it's over. That was Blizzard's single greatest failure with Starcraft II. You either get over it or you don't enjoy the game.

This isn't a thing that gets explained around or justified. They changed the story, and if that ruined everything for you, I'm sorry that it did.

I remain of the opinion that everything other than this colossal mistake by Blizzard's story team was pretty good, so I'm still interested in the games.




I might not even care so much if Blizzard was being consistant, but I can't help but bring to mind another story of their where a main character makes an infernal deal to get revenge. Anyone remember Warcraft III, when Arthas takes up Frostmourne.

That was treated as a moral event horizon by Blizzard, and yet Arthas was probably suffering from post dramatic stress disorder, certainly did not fully understand the full implications of the bargain he was striking until after it had happened, and had more or less watched his entire life fall apart over the course of a month or two. More than that his enemy was a brutal omnicidal complete monster who was a clear and present danger to the entire universe, and was trying to murder him and all his soldiers.

Was Arthas wrong. Yeah, sure. He probably should have never set foot in Northrend. But even after he did, he did several notable good deeds, like saving Muradin which clearly showed that there was good left in him at that point.


Arthas is a completely different story and this is an unreasonable demand. If every story of corruption had to be treated like Arthas, every game would be Warcraft III and we'd all be bored.




I guess in the end my problem isn't so much with Kerrigan and Raynor, as Blizzard's utter refusal to admit that they aren't clear cut heroes. In Brood War and the original StarCraft everyone had objectives, and you could decide for yourself who to root for.

But in StarCraft II Blizzard Hamfistedly comes down on the side of Raynor and Kerrigan, expecting us to consider them the good guys even though their actions and motivations can easily allow one to consider them self centered villains.


Blizzard has you PLAY as Kerrigan. They didn't come down on anyone's SIDE. Kerrigan is, without a doubt, a villain. A dangerous, powerful one who does what she wants, when she wants and cares about only a very small number of other beings in the universe.

I don't know where you got the idea that Blizzard comes down on the side of Kerrigan, but you're mistaken. They have never done anything to dissuade us of the notion that she's a villain.




And while I accept that sometimes a downer ending can work, my problem is that Blizzard NEVER WRITES ANYTHING ELSE!


End of Warcraft III original, Archimonde is destroyed. End of Starcraft I original, Overmind is destroyed. End of each WoW expansion: the good guys win and the big evil villain is defeated.




I'm tired of video game executives thinking that 'karma' and 'optimism' equals bad storytelling. They made it absolutely clear that StarCraft II is going to complete the series when they released it, and they haven't changed their standpoint. That's fine, I don't want the series to go on forever.

What I want is an ending where the villains pay for their crimes, the dark clouds pass, and the remaining heroes are finally able to rebuild their lives, and those who weren't lucky enough to survive at least died to ensure a brighter future.


That's going to be Legacy of the Void. Heart of the Swarm was episode two out of three, which almost any storyteller will tell you is supposed to be the dark period.




I WANTED to see Kerrigan redeemed. I WANTED to see her work her way back up from rock bottom, regain Raynor's trust and become a better person. I WANTED to see a redemption arc for her, just as I wanted to see a redemption arc for Arthas. But no, instead Kerrigan spit on the hand of redemption and goes right back to killing people, and we're supposed to cheer for her because she's doing it for petty reasons instead of because the Dark Voice told her to.

Blizzard talks about redemption, they talk about character development. But at the end of the day the people who get 'redeemed' don't actually do anything to earn it, and usually just backslide five seconds later.


Woah, hey, character development doesn't just mean redemption. That's what you want, but it's not what they want.

Character gained character development because she did a few things in this story of horrible killing that she wouldn't have done if she hadn't been deinfested and reinfested. There are hints that she's thinking about the good of others and not just herself. Who knows what will come of those in Legacy of the Void. It certainly does NOT redeem her. But it might lead to her doing something good for the universe at a critical moment. Just maybe.




I realize that not every story is going to be cheery, or end on a happy note. I realize that not every main character is going to be a clear cut here hero. I watch Death Note and Code Geass. What I object to is when Blizzard gives me a genocidal self centered brat who thinks that her psychic powers means that she can do whatever she wants and tells me to root for her.


They told you to play as her, not root for her. She happens to be a popular character. Probably because the fantasy of unlimited power and self-assertion appeals to many people. Seriously, please stop making this mistake. You're playing as the villain the entirety of Heart of the Swarm and there's no hypocrisy present in that.




...You know I don't think I'm going to buy Legacy of the Void come to think of it. I liked Wings of Liberty, but Heart of the Swarm really wasted most of the potential in the story.

I think I'll go into a series with complex character with varied objectives and exciting adventures.

To heck with beating the Dark Voice, I'm going to go rewatch the series where a collection of multi colored equines face off against a Chaos Diety voiced by John De Lancie, bent on turning their own personality flaws against them. That's a story worth watching.

A cookie for he who notes my reference.

I'm all for more watching My Little Pony, never let it be said otherwise. Doesn't stop you from playing Legacy of the Void later, though, and I'd actually bet a fair bit that Legacy of the Void will have the happy ending you say you're looking for.

[Guancyto]

It's jumping in the villain pool to assist a villain with taking down another villain? I guarantee you, if Raynor didn't think Mensk deserved what was happening, he wouldn't have assisted Kerrigan no matter how much he was in love with her.

Lex Luthor and Superman team up to take down the Justice Lords, and only the Justice Lords, because there doesn't seem to be any other way to do it. Questionable but justifiable.

Lex Luthor and Superman team up to take down the Justice Lords, wreak havok across the face of their dimension, drop their orbital base on a populated area, and at no point does Superman seem to find this objectionable because hey, **** those guys, they totally had it coming. After this, he tells Lex 'now be good' and leaves. Not quite so kosher.

[GolemsVoice]

And I say it again: Kerrgian would have conquered Augustgrad anyway, and if Mat, Valerian and Raynor wouldn't have shown up, she would have done so by carving a bloody path through the civilians, not just through the remaining military forces.

[Guancyto]

This is good! You'll note that Horner and Valerian are doing the right thing here, trying to keep the civilians out of it while Kerrigan pushes toward Mengsk. (I'm a little disappointed by nobody pointing out that Kerrigan, you're making a surgical strike before the main battlefleets show up, you do not even have time to be messing with civvies.)

Is that why Raynor shows up? I'm not going to give him karma points for the incidental lessening of the rampaging of the girlfriend he came to support.

As for the fragility of Mengsk's empire, I did a bit of wiki searching.

The Terran Dominion is five years old as of SC2: HotS.

The previous state, the Confederacy, lasted one hundred and seventy-seven years.

The majority of the military and administrative officials of the Dominion are likely to be ex-Confederate (General Duke was an example, RIP Duke you were a glorious bastard). A not-inconsiderable portion of the military is likely to be ex-Confederate. As apparently it was something of a plutocracy, the majority of the wealth is likely to be ex-Confederate. There are ten-year-olds who remember its fall.

The narrative the Dominion presented was that the Confederacy fell apart under the threats of the Protoss and Zerg and only a strong and centralized state could withstand these threats to the survival of humanity. It was a pretty strong narrative (helped in no small part by probably being true, with whole worlds being destroyed), and good thing too because reading about the 'feds, Mengsk had a whole lot of cats to herd in a very short time.

Raynor was pretty cynical about what he'd accomplished in Media Blitz. But assuming the evidence was as irrefutable as everyone treats it (which seems silly to me, but you have to roll with the punches a little), he basically annihilated the Dominion's legitimacy as a state.

A five-year-old state displacing a hundred-seventy-seven one is a pretty fragile thing already, but the Dominion has to have a lot of displaced power elites who are suddenly incredibly pissed off. It might not necessarily disappear, states are good at holding onto power even when their mandate is gone, but it certainly wouldn't stay the same. But, since the time period between Media Blitz and the invasion of Augustgrad is only a couple of months, I'm not surprised everything hasn't fallen apart. These things do take time.

And although the dev diary explains that Mengsk wanted to win the adoration of his people by breaking the Swarm, it seems to me that it would really have the opposite effect. If the Protoss are gone and the Zerg are destroyed, and humanity is no longer in danger of being wiped out by aliens, why exactly are we giving all this power to the Butcher of Tarsonis?

But, you know, it's a good thing Mengsk has god-tier statesmanship as an Informed Ability and no internal problems that the protagonists don't cause, otherwise the story and writers might stop fapping to Kerrigan for five minutes. Chitin high heels, people. :smallamused:

[Tavar]

Regarding the oath: Yeah, a mistake, and one that's only really touched on in expanded universe stuff. Basically, he eventually dissociates Kerrigan from the Queen of Blades(which is actually useful, given that the Queen of Blades is not entirely free from the Dark Voice, plus the impulses of the Zerg in general).


Lex Luthor and Superman team up to take down the Justice Lords, and only the Justice Lords, because there doesn't seem to be any other way to do it. Questionable but justifiable.

Lex Luthor and Superman team up to take down the Justice Lords, wreak havok across the face of their dimension, drop their orbital base on a populated area, and at no point does Superman seem to find this objectionable because hey, **** those guys, they totally had it coming. After this, he tells Lex 'now be good' and leaves. Not quite so kosher.
True. But how is that relevant to the situation in HotS? Because, from what I've seen, it has almost 0 relevance.



This is good! You'll note that Horner and Valerian are doing the right thing here, trying to keep the civilians out of it while Kerrigan pushes toward Mengsk. (I'm a little disappointed by nobody pointing out that Kerrigan, you're making a surgical strike before the main battlefleets show up, you do not even have time to be messing with civvies.)
The problem is the nature of the Strike. Due to the defenses, she has to take the city at the very least. So, the easiest way would be to strike directly at the city. Instead, she lands outside it, which both gives the defenders time to prepare but also allows the civilians to get out.

She would not be targeting the civilians, she'd be accepting that they were collateral damage. Please, Kerrigan's bad enough without you manufacturing flaws.



As for the fragility of Mengsk's empire, I did a bit of wiki searching.

The Terran Dominion is five years old as of SC2: HotS.

The previous state, the Confederacy, lasted one hundred and seventy-seven years.

The majority of the military and administrative officials of the Dominion are likely to be ex-Confederate (General Duke was an example, RIP Duke you were a glorious bastard). A not-inconsiderable portion of the military is likely to be ex-Confederate. As apparently it was something of a plutocracy, the majority of the wealth is likely to be ex-Confederate. There are ten-year-olds who remember its fall.

The narrative the Dominion presented was that the Confederacy fell apart under the threats of the Protoss and Zerg and only a strong and centralized state could withstand these threats to the survival of humanity. It was a pretty strong narrative (helped in no small part by probably being true, with whole worlds being destroyed), and good thing too because reading about the 'feds, Mengsk had a whole lot of cats to herd in a very short time.

Raynor was pretty cynical about what he'd accomplished in Media Blitz. But assuming the evidence was as irrefutable as everyone treats it (which seems silly to me, but you have to roll with the punches a little), he basically annihilated the Dominion's legitimacy as a state.

A five-year-old state displacing a hundred-seventy-seven one is a pretty fragile thing already, but the Dominion has to have a lot of displaced power elites who are suddenly incredibly pissed off. It might not necessarily disappear, states are good at holding onto power even when their mandate is gone, but it certainly wouldn't stay the same. But, since the time period between Media Blitz and the invasion of Augustgrad is only a couple of months, I'm not surprised everything hasn't fallen apart. These things do take time.

And although the dev diary explains that Mengsk wanted to win the adoration of his people by breaking the Swarm, it seems to me that it would really have the opposite effect. If the Protoss are gone and the Zerg are destroyed, and humanity is no longer in danger of being wiped out by aliens, why exactly are we giving all this power to the Butcher of Tarsonis?

But, you know, it's a good thing Mengsk has god-tier statesmanship as an Informed Ability and no internal problems that the protagonists don't cause, otherwise the story and writers might stop fapping to Kerrigan for five minutes. Chitin high heels, people. :smallamused:
The Terran Dominion and Confederacy could probably be viewed very similarly to the Roman transition from Oligarchical Republic to Empire. Most of the institutions remain the same, but the power structure at top changes.

As for Mengsk's statements, I think you nailed the thing on the head. While there's quite a bit of outrage, he's able to play the "out-of-context", "lies", and "remember the good I've done", at least to his core areas(the ones that are most important). Additionally, if he stops the zerg, it's more likely, in my opinion, that people are going to give him the benefit of the doubt. People, by and large, don't want war. Especially on the level's shown in Star Craft.

Oh, and don't forget that the Zerg are still a problem, thanks to the BroodMothers. They're just one that's manageable, and that problem is likely something Mengsk directed most of his attention to(possibly why the fleets were away).

As for the powerful elites...well, there were a lot. They were also concentrated on Tarsonis. So, there probably aren't as many any more.

[Zen Master]

I think you guys need to work on your definitions of 'hero' and 'heroic'.

Hero does in no way, shape or form mean 'good guy'. It means someone who wins against hard odds. They don't raise statues and mark down your name in history because you had high morals - hardly any single hero I can think of, real or fictive, was in any particular way a 'good guy'.

An even better definition of hero might be 'someone dumb enough to not realize he's fighting against impossible odds - and stubborn enough to win anyways.'

Which could be what they will eventually put on Jims headstone.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think you guys need to work on your definitions of 'hero' and 'heroic'.

Hero does in no way, shape or form mean 'good guy'. It means someone who wins against hard odds. They don't raise statues and mark down your name in history because you had high morals - hardly any single hero I can think of, real or fictive, was in any particular way a 'good guy'.

In fact, if you look at the original heroes of myth, most of them were kind of asshats.

Actually, you could make a reasonable case for Raynor being an anologue of a Greek mythical hero...

[Winthur]

There's one thing that irked me about the storyline. Can someone give me a valid explanation or something else to ease my sads about this matter?

Namely, according to canon, the most powerful cerebrate who managed to pull off the destruction of the Psi Disrupter, the liberation of Korhal, the kidnapping of Raszagal, the annihilation of the Overmind and finally the against-all-odds defense at Omega is then killed at the end of Brood War, off-screen, by Kerrigan.

I suppose this meant that Kerrigan has now taken control of all her broods and doesn't need any generals... but why does she create Broodmothers by SC2? Who the hell is Abathur? Who is Izsha? Are they any more than tools at their disposal? Is Zagara or anybody else more competent than the guy cepelinai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepelinai)-look-a-like who pretty much survived the whole SC period (I know SC and BW player character Cerebrates aren't the same entity, but I doubt that Daggoth had the power to create more Cerebrates or that the second Overmind did, so I'm assuming the BW Cerebrate is a veteran). Since Kerrigan makes it a point that Broodmothers don't just get born with all the knowledge and experience in their genes of all the previous Zerg generals, why the hell would you dispose of your level 99 hero unit? Especially one who is bound to your will to the point where there's no way they could ever revolt?

It just irks me, man. I'd rather see him predict his destruction by Kerrigan (because by all accounts he's a smart mofo) and just running off to some barren section of Koprulu where nobody would bother him and building his own little high life along with Alan Schezar who shows up on his doorstep with an interesting business idea.

"Serve me unquestioningly, and I'll let you live", my ass. :smallannoyed:

I guess this is my problem with SC2 - the characters are ridiculously inconsistent. Raynor forgets about Fenix, Kerrigan tries to imply that massacring the Protoss is just desserts for the Protoss killing the Zerg -- seriously, at that point I thought that the Zergling with the broken tusk that is all like "pet meee :3" in cutscenes, while cute, invoked some sort of "crazy cat lady" instincts in the Queen of Blades - both completely fail at being sympathetic characters... I don't know, it's kind of what EA did to Kane over the years.

[Grif]

There's one thing that irked me about the storyline. Can someone give me a valid explanation or something else to ease my sads about this matter?

Namely, according to canon, the most powerful cerebrate who managed to pull off the destruction of the Psi Disrupter, the liberation of Korhal, the kidnapping of Raszagal, the annihilation of the Overmind and finally the against-all-odds defense at Omega is then killed at the end of Brood War, off-screen, by Kerrigan.

I suppose this meant that Kerrigan has now taken control of all her broods and doesn't need any generals... but why does she create Broodmothers by SC2? Who the hell is Abathur? Who is Izsha? Are they any more than tools at their disposal? Is Zagara or anybody else more competent than the guy cepelinai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepelinai)-look-a-like who pretty much survived the whole SC period (I know SC and BW player character Cerebrates aren't the same entity, but I doubt that Daggoth had the power to create more Cerebrates or that the second Overmind did, so I'm assuming the BW Cerebrate is a veteran). Since Kerrigan makes it a point that Broodmothers don't just get born with all the knowledge and experience in their genes of all the previous Zerg generals, why the hell would you dispose of your level 99 hero unit? Especially one who is bound to your will to the point where there's no way they could ever revolt?

It just irks me, man. I'd rather see him predict his destruction by Kerrigan (because by all accounts he's a smart mofo) and just running off to some barren section of Koprulu where nobody would bother him and building his own little high life along with Alan Schezar who shows up on his doorstep with an interesting business idea.

"Serve me unquestioningly, and I'll let you live", my ass. :smallannoyed:

I guess this is my problem with SC2 - the characters are ridiculously inconsistent. Raynor forgets about Fenix, Kerrigan tries to imply that massacring the Protoss is just desserts for the Protoss killing the Zerg -- seriously, at that point I thought that the Zergling with the broken tusk that is all like "pet meee :3" in cutscenes, while cute, invoked some sort of "crazy cat lady" instincts in the Queen of Blades - both completely fail at being sympathetic characters... I don't know, it's kind of what EA did to Kane over the years.

Well, forget the Cerebrate, all I wanted to know is what happened to the Magistrate after the end of the first episode. :smallannoyed:

[Tectonic Robot]

I think you guys need to work on your definitions of 'hero' and 'heroic'.

Hero does in no way, shape or form mean 'good guy'. It means someone who wins against hard odds. They don't raise statues and mark down your name in history because you had high morals - hardly any single hero I can think of, real or fictive, was in any particular way a 'good guy'.

An even better definition of hero might be 'someone dumb enough to not realize he's fighting against impossible odds - and stubborn enough to win anyways.'

Which could be what they will eventually put on Jims headstone.

That's the classical definition, yeah, but people define hero a bit differently in this day and age, more along the lines of Disney movies. Language changes, mate!

[Winthur]

Well, forget the Cerebrate, all I wanted to know is what happened to the Magistrate after the end of the first episode. :smallannoyed:

Blizzard denied it but at least you can pretend Magistrate is Matt Horner in your headcanon. I want my Cerebrate back. :smallfrown:

[Traab]

There's one thing that irked me about the storyline. Can someone give me a valid explanation or something else to ease my sads about this matter?

Namely, according to canon, the most powerful cerebrate who managed to pull off the destruction of the Psi Disrupter, the liberation of Korhal, the kidnapping of Raszagal, the annihilation of the Overmind and finally the against-all-odds defense at Omega is then killed at the end of Brood War, off-screen, by Kerrigan.

I suppose this meant that Kerrigan has now taken control of all her broods and doesn't need any generals... but why does she create Broodmothers by SC2? Who the hell is Abathur? Who is Izsha? Are they any more than tools at their disposal? Is Zagara or anybody else more competent than the guy cepelinai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepelinai)-look-a-like who pretty much survived the whole SC period (I know SC and BW player character Cerebrates aren't the same entity, but I doubt that Daggoth had the power to create more Cerebrates or that the second Overmind did, so I'm assuming the BW Cerebrate is a veteran). Since Kerrigan makes it a point that Broodmothers don't just get born with all the knowledge and experience in their genes of all the previous Zerg generals, why the hell would you dispose of your level 99 hero unit? Especially one who is bound to your will to the point where there's no way they could ever revolt?

It just irks me, man. I'd rather see him predict his destruction by Kerrigan (because by all accounts he's a smart mofo) and just running off to some barren section of Koprulu where nobody would bother him and building his own little high life along with Alan Schezar who shows up on his doorstep with an interesting business idea.

"Serve me unquestioningly, and I'll let you live", my ass. :smallannoyed:

I guess this is my problem with SC2 - the characters are ridiculously inconsistent. Raynor forgets about Fenix, Kerrigan tries to imply that massacring the Protoss is just desserts for the Protoss killing the Zerg -- seriously, at that point I thought that the Zergling with the broken tusk that is all like "pet meee :3" in cutscenes, while cute, invoked some sort of "crazy cat lady" instincts in the Queen of Blades - both completely fail at being sympathetic characters... I don't know, it's kind of what EA did to Kane over the years.

I see Abathur as another Duran. Useful, but its not a good idea to trust him. He isnt actually a part of the swarm precisely. He just works for them and his ability to twist dna is unmatched. I REALLY dont trust him. Izsha, I see as a biological computer. Her reason for existing is so that madam queen of blades doesnt have to worry about forgetting something.

[Tavar]

That's touched on in some of the Dev Q&A's I linked.

Basically, The Cerebrate will always be against Kerrigan/QoB's Rule, as they will attempt to create an Overmind. It's how they are built: to be loyal to the Overmind and to, in a way, be a back up for the Overmind. The Broodmothers do not share this problem.

As for why she created them, even the QoB is limited. The Broodmothers expand her control, especially in the tactical area(as the QoB can't be everywhere at once).

Additionally, she created them as a backup plan, so that if she was lost the Zerg wouldn't be helpless. Why she felt that way isn't explained in the Q&A.

[Dienekes]

And while I accept that sometimes a downer ending can work, my problem is that Blizzard NEVER WRITES ANYTHING ELSE!

I'm tired of video game executives thinking that 'karma' and 'optimism' equals bad storytelling. They made it absolutely clear that StarCraft II is going to complete the series when they released it, and they haven't changed their standpoint. That's fine, I don't want the series to go on forever.

What I want is an ending where the villains pay for their crimes, the dark clouds pass, and the remaining heroes are finally able to rebuild their lives, and those who weren't lucky enough to survive at least died to ensure a brighter future.

I WANTED to see Kerrigan redeemed. I WANTED to see her work her way back up from rock bottom, regain Raynor's trust and become a better person. I WANTED to see a redemption arc for her, just as I wanted to see a redemption arc for Arthas. But no, instead Kerrigan spit on the hand of redemption and goes right back to killing people, and we're supposed to cheer for her because she's doing it for petty reasons instead of because the Dark Voice told her to.

You see, I wouldn't want to see any of this. Kerrigan was only interesting as the Queen Bitch of the Universe. Redeeming her? No thank you. Brood Wars ending was fantastic with Kerrigan flaunting the fact that she had won and all her enemies were scattering before her.

The worst part of SCII was that they tried to redeem that awesome manipulative bitch with something as annoying as a prophecy. The fact that she still leaned toward the ruthless villainy in HotS was one of the two redeeming features of an otherwise rather boring storyline. The other was watching Mengsk die.

I mean think back to the twists and turns of SCI. First you're with Raynor as you plan to overthrow the Terran government. You have Duke betray them for you. Then you decide to leave Mengsk' side after he chooses to throw away Kerrigan because she questioned him, showing that he is just as bad as the old government. Then in the Protoss campaigns the various castes constantly fight for control and deal with Tassadar's seeming betrayal, until you decide to betray the Conclave and fight the growing threat of the overmind. Then in Brood War there are even more twists as there is a mole in the heart of the UED, and Kerrigan's manipulation of all sides bringing about the death of Duke, Fenix, Raszagal, and even Aldaris before her super betrayal and dominance of the galaxy.

Compared to that, SCII is: Raynor tries to save Kerrigan because of a prophecy and gets into a bit of a fight with Mengsk. Not much though. One real betrayal, which was spoiled in the very beginning. And HotS: Kerrigan goes around kicking asses. Pretty much a straight line until she gets to Mengsk. One potentially cool character death which turns out to be a fake.

[thorgrim29]

I seem to remember that in Liberty's Crusade (probably the best videogame book I've read BTW) the Magistrate splits off from Raynor after they escaped Mengst, so he's probably out there (or got eaten)

[Winthur]

Basically, The Cerebrate will always be against Kerrigan/QoB's Rule, as they will attempt to create an Overmind. It's how they are built: to be loyal to the Overmind and to, in a way, be a back up for the Overmind. The Broodmothers do not share this problem.

"Greetings, Cerebrate. By now you've realized that I've severed your connection with the Overmind and your renegade brethren. Understand, it's nothing personal; I just can't risk you falling under their influence. You're mine now."

The Cerebrate at no point, even being at the doorstep of the second Overmind, does suddenly decide that his mental power is flatlining and that it's going to join Daggoth and the Loyalists on a tournee around the world.

That, and once the dust of Omega has settled we can safely assume that Kerrigan controls all of the Zerg broods and most of the renegade Cerebrates, Daggoth included, are terminated. The whole "second Overmind" project took a whole load of Cerebrates merging together; Kerrigan's Cerebrate wouldn't be able to do that by himself.

That, and it would take an easy, John Connor style reprogramming of this particular Cerebrate specimen and making sure that it identifies its Overmind as the Queen of Blades. Which is what I'm pretty sure has already happened.

If that's the official explanation, then I think it's a weak one. :smallyuk:

[Tavar]

"Greetings, Cerebrate. By now you've realized that I've severed your connection with the Overmind and your renegade brethren. Understand, it's nothing personal; I just can't risk you falling under their influence. You're mine now."

The Cerebrate at no point, even being at the doorstep of the second Overmind, does suddenly decide that his mental power is flatlining and that it's going to join Daggoth and the Loyalists on a tournee around the world.

That, and once the dust of Omega has settled we can safely assume that Kerrigan controls all of the Zerg broods and most of the renegade Cerebrates, Daggoth included, are terminated. The whole "second Overmind" project took a whole load of Cerebrates merging together; Kerrigan's Cerebrate wouldn't be able to do that by himself.
So Kerrigan is able to maintain one Cerebrate apart from the Overmind, and keep it from making another overmind. Well, that's not too useful in the grand scale of things, and means that the Cerebrates are basically useless for her, in the sense that they cannot fill their designated role.


That, and it would take an easy, John Connor style reprogramming of this particular Cerebrate specimen and making sure that it identifies its Overmind as the Queen of Blades. Which is what I'm pretty sure has already happened.

If that's the official explanation, then I think it's a weak one.
There's no evidence that this would actually be possible except for the fact that you think it would work. And quite a bit that says otherwise. So....yeah, utter fanon.

[Winthur]

So Kerrigan is able to maintain one Cerebrate apart from the Overmind, and keep it from making another overmind. Well, that's not too useful in the grand scale of things, and means that the Cerebrates are basically useless for her, in the sense that they cannot fill their designated role.

Given the fact that maintaining one Cerebrate apart from the Overmind and keeping it away from its brethren is one of the moves that allowed Kerrigan to win Brood War, I'd say the Cerebrates are useful. Cerebrates are just the second-in-command to the Overmind and that each brood they command has its own unique setup; where does it say that their designated role is to keep Overmind alive?

My gripe was the fact that between SC and SC2 she kills her best general because she won't need any more generals... then she makes other generals. So the hierarchy didn't really change in the Zerg Swarm - it's just that Overmind -> Cerebrate -> Queen -> Overlord was replaced with Kerrigan -> Broodmother -> Queen -> Overlord.



There's no evidence that this would actually be possible except for the fact that you think it would work. And quite a bit that says otherwise. So....yeah, utter fanon.

What does say otherwise, given that Kerrigan explicitly said that she managed to take over at least one Cerebrate for herself? Said Cerebrate could see her as his new Overmind - especially since the second Overmind had very little in common with the first one, given how fragile and weak-willed it turned out to be. It had none of the original Overmind's vision and capability; and it was an artificial creation made of Daggoth's cerebrates.

[Tavar]

Given the fact that maintaining one Cerebrate apart from the Overmind and keeping it away from its brethren is one of the moves that allowed Kerrigan to win Brood War, I'd say the Cerebrates are useful. Cerebrates are just the second-in-command to the Overmind and that each brood they command has its own unique setup; where does it say that their designated role is to keep Overmind alive?

My gripe was the fact that between SC and SC2 she kills her best general because she won't need any more generals... then she makes other generals. So the hierarchy didn't really change in the Zerg Swarm - it's just that Overmind -> Cerebrate -> Queen -> Overlord was replaced with Kerrigan -> Broodmother -> Queen -> Overlord.
Cerebrates are useful because they serve as secondary commanders, something Kerrigan needs. But since she can only maintain one....

That's not a useful quality in lieutenants.

And it's not their designated role to keep the Overmind alive. Hell, that's not what they did. What they do is make sure that there is an overmind, which is bad for the QoB.

Also, that's not exactly what she did. She killed her best general because she could not trust him, and disagreed with some of his basic building principles. Hell, she can't even kill Cerebrates on her own, can she? This is contrasted with the BroodMothers, who she built to her specifications and can deal with. And it should be noted that the cerebrates and Broodmothers do have different goals/loyalties, which is key.



What does say otherwise, given that Kerrigan explicitly said that she managed to take over at least one Cerebrate for herself? Said Cerebrate could see her as his new Overmind - especially since the second Overmind had very little in common with the first one, given how fragile and weak-willed it turned out to be. It had none of the original Overmind's vision and capability; and it was an artificial creation made of Daggoth's cerebrates.
The Dev Q&A I mentioned. And, again, note that she took one cerebrate. Not many, one. Despite the fact that more would appear to be better, and would allow them to fulfill their purpose better. From that, while the Cerebrate was useful and loyal in the short term, it's loyalty could not be guaranteed. Or rather, it's

[Guancyto]

I mean think back to the twists and turns of SCI. First you're with Raynor as you plan to overthrow the Terran government. You have Duke betray them for you. Then you decide to leave Mengsk' side after he chooses to throw away Kerrigan because she questioned him, showing that he is just as bad as the old government. Then in the Protoss campaigns the various castes constantly fight for control and deal with Tassadar's seeming betrayal, until you decide to betray the Conclave and fight the growing threat of the overmind. Then in Brood War there are even more twists as there is a mole in the heart of the UED, and Kerrigan's manipulation of all sides bringing about the death of Duke, Fenix, Raszagal, and even Aldaris before her super betrayal and dominance of the galaxy.

Compared to that, SCII is: Raynor tries to save Kerrigan because of a prophecy and gets into a bit of a fight with Mengsk. Not much though. One real betrayal, which was spoiled in the very beginning. And HotS: Kerrigan goes around kicking asses. Pretty much a straight line until she gets to Mengsk. One potentially cool character death which turns out to be a fake.

For srs.

And look at Mengsk. SC1 Mengsk is a gorram clever bastard, if totally ruthless and self-obsessed enough to screw over his best lieutenants for just questioning him. Maybe it's because the Terran campaign gets to show him off a bit, but he legitimately goes from random terrorist to Emperor of Humanity mostly through being a clever bastard.

From the developer commentary, you can see that they intend SC2 Mengsk to be a gorram clever bastard. He is... not. At all. His response to the Media Blitz clip is basically a tantrum, he doesn't really have any clever plans except to scowl and sound menacing and send troops over, and with the exception of the very end he never really causes the protagonists trouble.

And when the chips are down and he's in personal combat with the most powerful psionic being in the known universe, he has one trick, which he uses to monologue.

SC2 Mengsk is a Saturday morning cartoon villain. I honestly can't find much satisfaction in playing out the downfall of that. :smallyuk:

[Tavar]

I'd point out that, at least regarding his tricks, that's because you methodically strip him of any advantages over the campaign: he has Raynor so you can't attack him. Even after you free him, he has the Anti-Zerg thing, which would have been absolute proof against the Zerg, if not for the Primal stuff which no one knew about.

The monolouging in unfortunate, but considering the state of things, I got the impression that he was basically giving up. Sure, he could kill Kerrigan, but he had no hope for survival past that.


I will agree that the writing was pretty bad, and failed to show what they wanted, especially regarding Mengsk. Probably because, despite being the main opposition, he doesn't really get much actual focus. It's hard to seem clever when you can't see the person's actions.

[Anarion]

In fact, if you look at the original heroes of myth, most of them were kind of asshats.

Actually, you could make a reasonable case for Raynor being an anologue of a Greek mythical hero...

I mentioned further back in the thread that we were dismissing the Greek hero definition. However, if we do use it, I think that both Kerrigan and Raynor probably qualify as heroes. They are larger than life, blessed by the gods (again in the Greek/Roman sense) and both their ambitions and their appetites are greater than the common man.


Blizzard denied it but at least you can pretend Magistrate is Matt Horner in your headcanon. I want my Cerebrate back. :smallfrown:

It's also supposed to be part of a larger reorganization. Kerrigan wanted to specialize and alter the swarm, as well as create several independent intelligences that could operate independently. Also, although I haven't heard this from the devs, I think there's a good argument that Kerrigan wanted mobile leaders who could fight and defend themselves, unlike the cerebrates, since Kerrigan knew all about the dark templar at that point.


For srs.

And look at Mengsk. SC1 Mengsk is a gorram clever bastard, if totally ruthless and self-obsessed enough to screw over his best lieutenants for just questioning him. Maybe it's because the Terran campaign gets to show him off a bit, but he legitimately goes from random terrorist to Emperor of Humanity mostly through being a clever bastard.

From the developer commentary, you can see that they intend SC2 Mengsk to be a gorram clever bastard. He is... not. At all. His response to the Media Blitz clip is basically a tantrum, he doesn't really have any clever plans except to scowl and sound menacing and send troops over, and with the exception of the very end he never really causes the protagonists trouble.

And when the chips are down and he's in personal combat with the most powerful psionic being in the known universe, he has one trick, which he uses to monologue.

SC2 Mengsk is a Saturday morning cartoon villain. I honestly can't find much satisfaction in playing out the downfall of that. :smallyuk:

This, I think is a valid criticism. Some of the execution in Starcraft II definitely fell far short of what was intended. Whether you want to attribute that to in-universe factors (Mensk basically becoming lax from being too comfortable in power) or because the writing team just wasn't up to snuff this time is up to you.

[Tectonic Robot]

If nothing else, Mengsk has a good name for a villain. Emperor Mengsk? It's striking, isn't it?

[Surrealistik]

Damn there's a lot to catch up on.

I think I'll leave further discussion/debate to those more invested in this mythos.

[GolemsVoice]

I think the fact that you actually CAN debate about the games in such a manner means that they must have gotten at least something right.

[Guancyto]

I think the fact that you actually CAN debate about the games in such a manner means that they must have gotten at least something right.

I used to buy that argument.

Then I saw people arguing about Twilight.

It was impassioned. I was vaguely intrigued, and vaguely horrified by it.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, Twilight made them care about the book. There are some problems with how love and sex are handled in the book, but keep in mind, a book's first goal is to entertain, and Twilight managed that quite well. What's there to judge?

[Anarion]

Well, Twilight made them care about the book. There are some problems with how love and sex are handled in the book, but keep in mind, a book's first goal is to entertain, and Twilight managed that quite well. What's there to judge?

Twilight is an example of something that a lot of people enjoyed and a lot of others hated, so, yes, it got something right, but "something" is pretty limited in its case since it also turned away a lot of people.

Starcraft II did do a lot of things right, but Starcraft I did them better. I think the way that Starcraft I placed the player in the game by being a character (the Executor, the Cerebrate etc.) created a lot of investment in those characters and the switch to the third-person omniscient viewpoint following Raynor and then Kerrigan lost a little bit in Starcraft II.

[GolemsVoice]

Hm, that might be true, yes. On the other hand, the missions are gorgeous compared to Starcraft I. So while it might not be the better story, it's definitely the better game, I'd say.

[Ailurus]

Hm, that might be true, yes. On the other hand, the missions are gorgeous compared to Starcraft I. So while it might not be the better story, it's definitely the better game, I'd say.

Well, graphically its better, because of the decade between the games. But, in terms of gameplay and level design, I'm not sure I agree. Many of the levels in WoL's campaign (haven't played all of HotS) seemed to be designed around - and in many cases all but required - just spamming the new unit you got that level. The levels where you got the Reaper, Banshee, Viking and Siege Tanks stand out particularly strongly as suffering from that symptom. And while the campaign does function a bit better than skirmish mode due to the heavy scripting, there's still the fact that the SC2 AI is frankly one of the worst I've seen in years.

I replayed Brood Wars campaign a whole bunch of times. If I think about replaying WoL, it never really happens, beyond maybe one or two levels in the simulator.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, graphically its better, because of the decade between the games. But, in terms of gameplay and level design, I'm not sure I agree. Many of the levels in WoL's campaign (haven't played all of HotS) seemed to be designed around - and in many cases all but required - just spamming the new unit you got that level. The levels where you got the Reaper, Banshee, Viking and Siege Tanks stand out particularly strongly as suffering from that symptom. And while the campaign does function a bit better than skirmish mode due to the heavy scripting, there's still the fact that the SC2 AI is frankly one of the worst I've seen in years.In all fairness, there's one other mission where Mass Reapers is the proper answer: the day/night mission. Reapers are very good against two specific things: lightly armored units and buildings, and are the fastest infantry unit in the game. The two things you deal with in that mission are light units and buildings... and there's a time limit. Then you never use them again.

The introduced unit is the Hellion, and it is exactly the wrong unit for the job. Hellions suck at taking down buildings, which is what you need to do to win, and however good they are at taking out massed targets, the infested marines tear them a new one. Then again, Hellions are exactly the wrong unit for any mission in the entire game. They're excellent harass units, but you never run up against any AI that isn't already built up to the point where harass would be effectively worthless.

Also, in the mission where Reapers are introduced... you'll need M&M&M to deal with the Mutas the Zerg have if you want to make a clean sweep and unlock the bonus achievement.

The mission with Siege Tanks... I never built more than a handful of them, to defend the base with. Then again, every mission after that one, I build a few Siege Tanks to defend the base with as well, so it doesn't really change my tactics in the least.

But if you are going to achieve your bonus objectives, you can't just turtle in your base, you're going to need to make a push, and that means an M&M&M ball. Medics are horribly powerful, abuse them. Use your ion cannon to take down Colossi, which are really the only threat to your M&M&M ball until you start hitting Hard and Brutal difficulty, in which case you want to snipe HTs before they start Storming you.

Banshees and Vikings are just so damn good that it's hard to go wrong with massing them. I've often gone with a mobile assault fleet consisting of equal numbers of Banshees and Vikings and just slaughter my way across the map. Vikings are probably the best anti-air unit in the game, and banshees are a horribly effective air to ground bombardment unit.

But really, any mission after the one you get Marauders on can be solved with M&M&M, generally because that combination is so hellishly effective in the campaign, due to how the mechanics work.

[Grif]

Twilight is an example of something that a lot of people enjoyed and a lot of others hated, so, yes, it got something right, but "something" is pretty limited in its case since it also turned away a lot of people.

Starcraft II did do a lot of things right, but Starcraft I did them better. I think the way that Starcraft I placed the player in the game by being a character (the Executor, the Cerebrate etc.) created a lot of investment in those characters and the switch to the third-person omniscient viewpoint following Raynor and then Kerrigan lost a little bit in Starcraft II.

I found it ironic that voiced potraits in Starcraft I did a better job at telling a story than the cutscenes in Starcraft II. :smalltongue: I mean, I was really running through the whole gamut of betrayal in the Terran campaign in Episode I, whereas I was quite bored in WoL.

Maybe I just grew more cynical.

[Traab]

In all fairness, there's one other mission where Mass Reapers is the proper answer: the day/night mission. Reapers are very good against two specific things: lightly armored units and buildings, and are the fastest infantry unit in the game. The two things you deal with in that mission are light units and buildings... and there's a time limit. Then you never use them again.

The introduced unit is the Hellion, and it is exactly the wrong unit for the job. Hellions suck at taking down buildings, which is what you need to do to win, and however good they are at taking out massed targets, the infested marines tear them a new one. Then again, Hellions are exactly the wrong unit for any mission in the entire game. They're excellent harass units, but you never run up against any AI that isn't already built up to the point where harass would be effectively worthless.

Also, in the mission where Reapers are introduced... you'll need M&M&M to deal with the Mutas the Zerg have if you want to make a clean sweep and unlock the bonus achievement.

The mission with Siege Tanks... I never built more than a handful of them, to defend the base with. Then again, every mission after that one, I build a few Siege Tanks to defend the base with as well, so it doesn't really change my tactics in the least.

But if you are going to achieve your bonus objectives, you can't just turtle in your base, you're going to need to make a push, and that means an M&M&M ball. Medics are horribly powerful, abuse them. Use your ion cannon to take down Colossi, which are really the only threat to your M&M&M ball until you start hitting Hard and Brutal difficulty, in which case you want to snipe HTs before they start Storming you.

Banshees and Vikings are just so damn good that it's hard to go wrong with massing them. I've often gone with a mobile assault fleet consisting of equal numbers of Banshees and Vikings and just slaughter my way across the map. Vikings are probably the best anti-air unit in the game, and banshees are a horribly effective air to ground bombardment unit.

But really, any mission after the one you get Marauders on can be solved with M&M&M, generally because that combination is so hellishly effective in the campaign, due to how the mechanics work.

For me, I generally tended to stay fairly basic with my units unless im in an area where something specific is needed. Especially in hots. Like 90% of the missions I am roach/hydra and everything I face gets steamrolled. Send in kerrigan with her banelings/broodlings to punch a hole in whatever defense I am attacking and flood the breach. That roach slow spit attack is brutal when they start hitting every enemy unit, and any flying types get shot down by hydras fairly quick. Im sure I could do it better if I used a more nuanced army and hotkeyed them by abilities, but a roach/hydra swarm is pretty much fire and forget in all the missions of the game. If I lose a few units, who cares? Give me 30 seconds and I have them all back because my hatchery produces 9 grubs at a time.

Sometimes I will play with the other options. A baneling swarm for grins and giggles, I love to mess around with the swarm hosts, sometimes for the sake of nostalgia I will go massive muta swarm because you could win almost every map in the original sc game with 7 full groups of them, or whatever the unit limit was.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, graphically its better, because of the decade between the games. But, in terms of gameplay and level design, I'm not sure I agree. Many of the levels in WoL's campaign (haven't played all of HotS) seemed to be designed around - and in many cases all but required - just spamming the new unit you got that level. The levels where you got the Reaper, Banshee, Viking and Siege Tanks stand out particularly strongly as suffering from that symptom. And while the campaign does function a bit better than skirmish mode due to the heavy scripting, there's still the fact that the SC2 AI is frankly one of the worst I've seen in years.

Yeah, the issue with the new unit winning the mission is a thing, but then again, the missions are designed to showcase the strengths and uses of this new unit.

Starcraft 1's missions weren't bad, but as far as I remember, they were mostly "built base, destroy enemy" kind of missions.

[Dienekes]

I have to agree with GolemsVoice here. At the very least SCII missions keep you on your toes. Like the level where you had to continuously move your base or you'd burn up in a huge wall of fire. Except for a couple of small unit travel from point A to point B missions every one in SCI is beaten by turtling for a little bit, then charging with an overwhelming force.

It wasn't perfect by any means, but at least they tried some different things.

[russdm]

In my humble opinion)

StarCraft 1 was essentially Warcraft 2 in space. It was completely railroaded and you could do essentially nothing beyond the game's mission requirements. After destroying the infested command center in the Backwater station mission, you can't ever tell Duke to piss off. Every single bloody time, Raynor gets arrested. And then the next mission is always the survive and flee the planet with Mengsk's people. You don't to say no to anything he has do, jarring when you have to haul that psi emitter into the confederate base, and the most so in the 'New Gettysburg' mission. You can build up a defense around your base that maul the zerg, but you can only do that by cheating your way out using the no continue onto the next mission code. I suppose you could get rid of one of the protoss bases in that mission and then move your entire base down and let the zerg take out the one at your first place. That would be funny.

You are also not allowed to unabandon mengsk. You can't just decide to side with him against raynor, and raynor, who frakking knew about the two psi-emitters according to the game/books, only leaves mengsk after he abandons Kerrigan.

The zerg and protoss campaigns are more of the same, where you have play missions as written, with only what strategies you use being different. This all applies to broodwar, which is incrediably annoying considering you only have Duran's word about stukov being a traitor, and so far before that point we have seen no reason why dugalle would have believed some schmuck he picked up from some bunch confederate rebels. Seriously, Dugalle served with stukov and was the dude's friend and just some words from Duran makes him suddenly believe his old friend is a traitor?

StarCraft 2 lets you play the missions in a limited free order. Some missions have to happen at certain times, but you make some choices on things to do. You still get some railroading in the game, but you also get more freedom than in starcraft 1.

After playing starcraft 1 and broodwars, its hard to play those missions again, because you are so way more aware of how much railroading your getting screwed over by. Atleast, 2 allowed for the freedom to buy some speciality upgrades for your units/structures, pick up mercernaries, and you can choose what kind of ghostie unit you end up with, the standard ghost or tosh's spectres. You also get some different cutscenes based on some mission choices you make.

In Heart of the Swarm, you get the same: Some different cutscenes based on mission choices, with the ability to make decisions about developing your units/structures and getting to pick what abilities that Kerrigan has.

There is just simply way more freedom in 2 than in 1. Its also a lot more fun to play, and you get to wander around a battlecruiser and talk to people while you are not doing 'build a base, kill the enemy' which was the only thing you could do in 1. With Kerrigan, you could talk to some people too, a vast improvement over the first game, which treated you like some uncaring omnipotent general that is only there to lead the forces, no actual interest in the races you are controlling.

Frankly, I just like WoL/HotS better than the first game offered and I would rather play it instead.

[Winthur]

StarCraft 1 was essentially Warcraft 2 in space.

It is much more... sophisticated! I know it's not 3D!


It was completely railroaded and you could do essentially nothing beyond the game's mission requirements. *snip just so you guys don't have to read twice about SC1's plot*

But isn't that how pretty much every other strategy game at the time worked? Starcraft uses this model just to tell a story. It's not a deep story, the characters are there just to create a palette of protagonists, antagonists and some plot. Railroading happens because it fits the convention. Starcraft and Warcraft have a setting (rather generic, admittedly, but oh well), have a plot, and you get to do stuff with all those characters you encounter.

I mean, in Dune 2, you get a Mentat telling you what to do and that's pretty much it. The Mentat has vague personality depending on which house you're in (and if you're a 6 year old playing as Harkonnen like I was at the time you are scared (http://ds.nahoo.net/images/Dune2-Harkonnen-Intro.jpg)). In Command & Conquer, you're told everything in briefings by people, and while there's plot, it's also you just picking a side and fulfilling your objectives to the point. Blizzard games do not differ from that - you are on some side and you progress the story you've laid out in front of you.

I don't think they even need to differ from that - does it make that much of a difference whether you're a faceless entity following canon or whether you're a faceless 3rd person entity observing Jim Raynor or Sarah Kerrigan following canon (while being grossly OOC)?

And I'd just nitpick about how the Zerg are hardly capable of making their own decisions independent of their current leader, so yeah, at least in case of Zerg campaigns it's wholly justified to be railroaded.

And as a digression, modern games that focus on having an open world and priding themselves on the freedom you have also railroad you in the end. GTA comes to mind.


StarCraft 2 lets you play the missions in a limited free order. Some missions have to happen at certain times, but you make some choices on things to do. You still get some railroading in the game, but you also get more freedom than in starcraft 1.

What kind of difference does it make if I unlock Thors before I unlock Siege Tanks, because that's pretty much what all those missions boil down to anyway? The plot doesn't really change; some characters that might leave you (Ariel and Tosh come to mind) might have something to tell you if you finish those missions in a different order, but really, what freedom is there to it? The only thing is that some of the story arcs you play in have two endings you can choose. Do those endings matter on a plot level? Not really; some side characters you might or might not have cared about leave or die as a result, usually. These missions just allow you to decide which unit do you want more. Which does allow for replayability, admittedly, but I'd say that the fact that you can do missions out of sequence (when they're pretty much all mini-campaigns in one big campaign) doesn't necessarily mean a lot of freedom. The fact that you can choose different upgrades and buy mercenaries and so on doesn't make a difference on the plot either, but it does provide variety in gameplay. Which is to be expected given that SC2 is good 12 years newer.


There is just simply way more freedom in 2 than in 1. Its also a lot more fun to play, and you get to wander around a battlecruiser and talk to people while you are not doing 'build a base, kill the enemy' which was the only thing you could do in 1.

Arguably, you play RTS games not to wander around and talk to people, but I don't get this sentiment that says SC2 is better because supposedly it has different missions than building bases and winning. SC1 also had missions that didn't involve having a base - but SC2 is just newer, on a different engine, and handles those missions differently. Whether SC2's approach is healthy is a different matter - some of the missions in HotS, especially as Kerrigan grew more powerful, felt like a single player MOBA game.

When you actually do get to command a base, it's the same objectives all over again. You have to defend a base for minutes or gather enough resources or just destroy the enemy or prevent something from happening (in SC1 Dark Templars can't walk into beacons and in SC2 Shuttles can't warp into warp gates). SC2 is newer and borrows heavily from the first game, so naturally missions are supposed to be filled with more content. So they are.

I guess this thread is about Starcraft 2 story, it's strengths and shortcomings, not about Starcraft 2 being newer than Starcraft 1. If I were to make a jab at SC2's new and improved gameplay full of freedom and variety, I'd be at least free to say that playing the whole Starcraft 1 storyline and getting to know all of the races' stories didn't involve having to buy three installments, each worth 60$, and each filled with fanfiction tier writing that, judging from this thread, seems to get more and more insulting with each release.

[Tectonic Robot]

In my humble opinion)

StarCraft 1 was essentially Warcraft 2 in space. It was completely railroaded and you could do essentially nothing beyond the game's mission requirements. After destroying the infested command center in the Backwater station mission, you can't ever tell Duke to piss off. Every single bloody time, Raynor gets arrested. And then the next mission is always the survive and flee the planet with Mengsk's people. You don't to say no to anything he has do, jarring when you have to haul that psi emitter into the confederate base, and the most so in the 'New Gettysburg' mission. You can build up a defense around your base that maul the zerg, but you can only do that by cheating your way out using the no continue onto the next mission code. I suppose you could get rid of one of the protoss bases in that mission and then move your entire base down and let the zerg take out the one at your first place. That would be funny.

You are also not allowed to unabandon mengsk. You can't just decide to side with him against raynor, and raynor, who frakking knew about the two psi-emitters according to the game/books, only leaves mengsk after he abandons Kerrigan.

The zerg and protoss campaigns are more of the same, where you have play missions as written, with only what strategies you use being different. This all applies to broodwar, which is incrediably annoying considering you only have Duran's word about stukov being a traitor, and so far before that point we have seen no reason why dugalle would have believed some schmuck he picked up from some bunch confederate rebels. Seriously, Dugalle served with stukov and was the dude's friend and just some words from Duran makes him suddenly believe his old friend is a traitor?

StarCraft 2 lets you play the missions in a limited free order. Some missions have to happen at certain times, but you make some choices on things to do. You still get some railroading in the game, but you also get more freedom than in starcraft 1.

After playing starcraft 1 and broodwars, its hard to play those missions again, because you are so way more aware of how much railroading your getting screwed over by. Atleast, 2 allowed for the freedom to buy some speciality upgrades for your units/structures, pick up mercernaries, and you can choose what kind of ghostie unit you end up with, the standard ghost or tosh's spectres. You also get some different cutscenes based on some mission choices you make.

In Heart of the Swarm, you get the same: Some different cutscenes based on mission choices, with the ability to make decisions about developing your units/structures and getting to pick what abilities that Kerrigan has.

There is just simply way more freedom in 2 than in 1. Its also a lot more fun to play, and you get to wander around a battlecruiser and talk to people while you are not doing 'build a base, kill the enemy' which was the only thing you could do in 1. With Kerrigan, you could talk to some people too, a vast improvement over the first game, which treated you like some uncaring omnipotent general that is only there to lead the forces, no actual interest in the races you are controlling.

Frankly, I just like WoL/HotS better than the first game offered and I would rather play it instead.

It's my personal opinion that linear, railroaded story progression is frowned upon far more than it should be. I believe that that method is the best for telling a story, y'know? And as the poster above me says, the branching paths don't really ~change~ anything. I'm fairly certain that if you side with Nova over Tosh, Heart of the Swarm still considers you having saved Tosh.

Starcraft I had a fairly likable and engaging storyline, which was not savaged by the linear storyline at all. Then again, I didn't really have much of a problem with Starcraft II's storyline either. It seems A-OK to me.

[GolemsVoice]

I'm fairly certain that if you side with Nova over Tosh, Heart of the Swarm still considers you having saved Tosh.

You do get a few lines that change depending on who you saved. The outcome is the same, yes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You do get a few lines that change depending on who you saved. The outcome is the same, yes.

I have been wondering about something. If you save Tosh, then Matt mentions "Our associate Tosh has volunteered to infiltrate-" before getting cut off by Kerrigan in regards to busting Raynor out of jail. What does he say if you choose Nova?

[Anarion]

It's my personal opinion that linear, railroaded story progression is frowned upon far more than it should be. I believe that that method is the best for telling a story, y'know? And as the poster above me says, the branching paths don't really ~change~ anything. I'm fairly certain that if you side with Nova over Tosh, Heart of the Swarm still considers you having saved Tosh.

Starcraft I had a fairly likable and engaging storyline, which was not savaged by the linear storyline at all. Then again, I didn't really have much of a problem with Starcraft II's storyline either. It seems A-OK to me.

Linear storyteling gets people annoyed because games are the only genre that allow for player choice, so there's this looming criticism that if all somebody wanted to do was tell one story, why didn't they make a movie or write a book? That's not entirely fair, since playing a game and telling a story can be very fun, but it is how people think.

In that regard though, both Starcrafts I and II are equally guilty. Blizzard has made no secret that they have a story to tell and characters to develop, and the introduction of player choice is very limited and only applies to how Raynor and Kerrigan approach a few side characters (though the player choices do reflect somewhat different overall outlooks from the characters).

Frankly, I think Starcraft I is getting a bit of nostalgia. Both games are primarily about big scary armies and terrifying consequences for the galaxy.

[Divayth Fyr]

What does he say if you choose Nova?
He says this. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12315555/zSMBriefing_Space02_Horner_006_alt01.ogg)

[deuterio12]

Linear storyteling gets people annoyed because games are the only genre that allow for player choice, so there's this looming criticism that if all somebody wanted to do was tell one story, why didn't they make a movie or write a book? That's not entirely fair, since playing a game and telling a story can be very fun, but it is how people think.


Seriously? Since when did Mario offer you a relevant story choice? Or streets of rage? Or Final Fantasy Z? Or Revenge of the Shinobi? Or Golden Axe? Or Bullet Hell game X? Or the last of us that aparently got super reviews everywhere?

Games that allow you to branch out the story are a recent novelty if anything. :smallsigh:

[Guancyto]

Frankly, I think Starcraft I is getting a bit of nostalgia. Both games are primarily about big scary armies and terrifying consequences for the galaxy.

Unquestionably!

SC1's campaign isn't some sublime masterpiece of storytelling - with a very small number of exceptions, story is always the weakest pillar in games - but it is an amusing sideshow to getting to play out different matchups in differing circumstances with varying levels of difficulty. It wasn't amazing, but it could actually stand on its own if it had to.

SC2's campaign has some neat gimmicks and more customizability. But where SC1's story was an amusing sideshow, SC2's story is mostly just an excuse to showcase the gimmick they thought of for that mission. That's not to say these weren't neat! I particularly liked Cutthroat and the Great Train Robbery, and I enjoyed Starcraft 2's campaign. But this was in spite of the story, which (if I were compelled to be honest) I'd have to rate below River City Ransom's.

Or Angry Birds'.

[Anarion]

Seriously? Since when did Mario offer you a relevant story choice? Or streets of rage? Or Final Fantasy Z? Or Revenge of the Shinobi? Or Golden Axe? Or Bullet Hell game X? Or the last of us that aparently got super reviews everywhere?

Games that allow you to branch out the story are a recent novelty if anything. :smallsigh:

They don't, but they also made no pretensions of telling an engaging story. Mario is set us as "go rescue the princess" and then you frolic around in a bunch of really awesomely designed stages.

Starcraft and especially Starcraft II purport to make the player care about the characters and offer an interesting and complex universe. Even more importantly, Starcraft II, both WoL and HoS, advertised itself as offering player choice, when in reality most of that choice boils down to the fate of minor characters and cosmetic differences in the winning army composition during gameplay.

[Winthur]

Linear storyteling gets people annoyed because games are the only genre that allow for player choice, so there's this looming criticism that if all somebody wanted to do was tell one story, why didn't they make a movie or write a book? That's not entirely fair, since playing a game and telling a story can be very fun, but it is how people think.

Eh, I wouldn't know. In case of RTS games, for me, it's always been how you approached the mission; the plot always felt like a way to tie missions together, give some reason for doing what you're doing. How you progress is up to you, your playstyle, previous experience, et cetera. The plot tells a story, but to unlock it you have to think about what you're doing in the game. Have a plan and execute it. You got freedom to use different tactics and strategies. If you're so inclined you can get back to the mission over and over even after beating it just to see if you can do it faster, et cetera.

Linear storytelling really isn't that bad in my opinion when the plot is there for background. You look forward to seeing the ending of the game, sure, but your main concern is "how to deal with all the Protoss and the Terrans surrounding my base in the middle of the map" or such.

[GolemsVoice]

Eh, I don't get the hate for games with linear storylines. Yes, they COULD implement choices, but they also could not. If choices are that important in a video game only for the reason that they exist, nobody would watch movies, because like books, they offer only linear storytelling and can't implement choices. This ignores the glaring fact that a story in a video game, a movie and a book will be totally different simply because the medium is different. Enjoying a game is different from enjoying a movie is different from enjoying a book.

[russdm]

I had no problem with the linear plotline, it works for both games but:

1) Starcraft 1 was really a rehashing of the plot from Warcraft 1/Warcraft 2. Seriously, look at the game in that terms and it is completely works. Nearly all the missions are the same, "build base, destroy enemy" with a few modifications.

2) Starcraft 1 has been out way longer than two and people are looking back at it with nostalgia despite the fact, there for nearly all of the gameply you might not have cared about the units that you were getting killed. you might not have even cared about the hero units.

3) To actually get anything info about the races you are using in the game, you have to read the manuals. Nothing in game actually tells you anything about why you doing what you are doing beyond the briefing and those briefings are limited to the mission you are going to do. An example would be about the dark templar in the protoss missions. We never learn anything about why they are so bad, we just told to arrest them or take them out. We aren't told why what tassadar is doing is bad. Or anything really about why the UED controlling the overmind is bad. We are supposed to just assume that we should believe everything we are being told and that nothing is just lies or could be.

In starcraft 2:

1) You can get different cutscenes, only like 2-3 but still thats more than game 1.

2) The game might have new graphics, but it stays true to the fomula of game 1 but adds in what worked to make Warcraft 3 so good and popular. That would be the interesting mission designs of goodies to get in maps.

3) There is more detail in game about the actual reasons you are doing things. You don't have to read the manual, because the game tries to integrate the manual into the game.

The story for Starcraft 2 was far more personable. You were to get a sense of why Raynor is doing what he is doing and why Kerrigan is doing her thing. It makes the missions more enjoyable and its fun.

I think that raynor is more heroic in Wings of Liberty than in Heart of the Swarm because he has to convince his men why they should risk their lives so he can de-zergify his girlfriend. He has to start shaping to actually lead this rebellion of his.

In Heart of the Swarm, Raynor spends the game in prison after the first two to three missions. Then reappears right around the end missions, so you really can't count his involvement there, he has been missing through the rest of the game.

Kerrigan is clearly meant to be better than queen of blades but not better than who she was before becoming queen of blades. Her story is just really about opening up a can of pissed off fury on mengsk, and i am sure some players really wanted to do the same from the games/novels. Playing Kerrigan lets you play like being the undead in warcraft 3. Its fun playing the forces of darkness, because then you don't have to be so goodie-two-shoes anymore.

What is meant by the fanfiction tier comment? are you saying the whole game is fanfiction? sequels to games are all fanfiction, just the designer's one becomes the new official story.

So let me throw out this question:

What story do you think that starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm should have had instead of the "fanfiction" and why?

[DeltaEmil]

"Hahahaha! Kerrigan, I have Raynor in my custody! If you do not obey, I will execute him!"

Kerrigan simply destroys one Dominion world after the other, flies around in her Leviathan making her swarm stronger, destroys ultra-important facilities, can by the way end Narud/Duran once and for all, stumbles upon the prison ship and frees Raynor, and then gets to kill Mengsk, who does nothing but sit on his ass and try to zap Kerrigan again with the Xel-Naga artifact.

That was beyond stupid. I'm sure that it will be explained that Amon was mind-controlling Mengsk all along, and he let Mengsk allow Kerrigan into his office to drain a few more Psi-points with the artifact or something stupid like that.

Oh yeah, and Stukov is alive, and reinfested again, and he somehow escaped the hybrid-producing facility all on his own, and he tells Kerrigan everything about the true enemy, and she absolutely trusts him.

I like Heart of the Swarm's gameplay and missions and also did enjoy Wings of Liberty's gameplay, but StarCraft 2 has so far a terrible story. Extremely terrible.

[GolemsVoice]

It's not like Mengsk sat on his hands, though. He did build that giant psi-disruptor, which would have stopped Kerrigan if it hadn't been for the primals, of which Megnsk couldn't know.

[thorgrim29]

About the primals.... is it only me or are they complete bull****? Remember SC1's huge manual with about a campaign setting's worth of fluff? Yeah they're not in that. Now that could be forgiven because the writers shouldn't have to be 100% bound to what other writers wrote almost 20 years ago if only they were interesting, but they're not, they're boring, very boring... Like most of HoTS.

[Tectonic Robot]

Heck, I enjoyed SC I's story quite a bit. I thought it was rather well told.

SC II, for the other fault's accused of it, had an insane variety in missions. You had a train robbery and zombie attack, for goodness sake.Throw in a tower defense mission and you've got everything.

[Tavar]

About the primals.... is it only me or are they complete bull****? Remember SC1's huge manual with about a campaign setting's worth of fluff? Yeah they're not in that. Now that could be forgiven because the writers shouldn't have to be 100% bound to what other writers wrote almost 20 years ago if only they were interesting, but they're not, they're boring, very boring... Like most of HoTS.
This must have been a gigantic book if it contaained everything regarding a universe.

[thorgrim29]

It was pretty big and had a big section on each faction's backstory and units, and basically said that the Overmind started out as a kind of hive mind for drones on a nowhere planet, got upgraded and given spaceflight capability by the Xel Naga and travelled planet to planet absorbing species, first the zergling and then others.

Anyway as I said I'd have understood if they threw it out and replaced it with something actually interesting, but the whole primal zerg thing was so trite and boring...

[Winthur]

About the primals.... is it only me or are they complete bull****? Remember SC1's huge manual with about a campaign setting's worth of fluff? Yeah they're not in that. Now that could be forgiven because the writers shouldn't have to be 100% bound to what other writers wrote almost 20 years ago if only they were interesting, but they're not, they're boring, very boring... Like most of HoTS.

From the plot side of things I agree, especially since the whole primal storyline also leads to those implications that there are "good" and "evil" Zerg which I just find silly. In terms of gameplay, though, the Zerus arc opens up the possibility of some ZvZ action, so there's that at least.

[GolemsVoice]

I wouldn't say good or bad Zerg, just mindless, controlled Zerg, and Zerg that will hunt and kill you for your essence, but actually have the power to NOT do so should it suit them. Look at Dehaka, he's certainly not good.

[Traab]

It was pretty big and had a big section on each faction's backstory and units, and basically said that the Overmind started out as a kind of hive mind for drones on a nowhere planet, got upgraded and given spaceflight capability by the Xel Naga and travelled planet to planet absorbing species, first the zergling and then others.

Anyway as I said I'd have understood if they threw it out and replaced it with something actually interesting, but the whole primal zerg thing was so trite and boring...

But that doesnt really preclude primals existing as introduced in SC2. That first planet gets zapped by a xelnaga evolution ray or whatever the hell they do, and other creatures get caught up in it. The overmind moves on, and leaves its home world behind. The animals left there start consuming each other, and consuming each other, and getting stronger, more cunning, and eventually, they reach sentience. They form packs because they lack an overmind, so its basically, an alpha gathers up lesser creatures because its smart enough to know it cant fight the whole world by itself, and is offering its protection to those weaker than it.

[Guancyto]

About the primals.... is it only me or are they complete bull****? Remember SC1's huge manual with about a campaign setting's worth of fluff? Yeah they're not in that. Now that could be forgiven because the writers shouldn't have to be 100% bound to what other writers wrote almost 20 years ago if only they were interesting, but they're not, they're boring, very boring... Like most of HoTS.

They already retconned the Overmind to have been a good guy. This was... it wasn't good but it was pretty par for the course.

"Fanfiction-tier" writing is just a fancy way of saying it's pretty bad, unnecessarily retcons things that didn't need retconning, introduces new elements that really have no place in the setting and contradicts existing material for the sake of seeming cool or for the sake of doing so. Or for the sake of the author's favorite ship. Who cares if Draco and Hermione hate each other they are OTP 4eva!!!1

The Overmind was a good guy mind-controlled by an evil Xel'Naga (instead of obeying its directives and consuming them all in an epic Not As Planned)! There's an ancient prophecy that states that Kerrigan is key to saving the universe from the evil Xel'Naga (prophecy? whuh? despite the psionic powers, the best prescience is supposed to be, like, fractions of a second). There's a magical artifact that can de-infest infested Terrans and destroy Xel'Naga created races! (hey, despite the psionic powers wasn't this kind of a hard-ish sci-fi setting with gauss rifles and nuclear missiles? And why didn't they use that when the Zerg were killing them all oh wait that never happened) Tassadar is a alive and ascended to a higher plane of existence (instead of dying in a heroic sacrifice)! (Wait, there's a higher plane of existence?) The Overmind didn't eat all the Zerg on Zerus so they can be giant bug mentors so Kerrigan can reinfest herself in one of the most blatant possible references to the original campaign! (why are these guys even a thing? they're just so... one-note and totally revise the history of the Zerg even more for no reason. This means the Xel'Naga didn't actually DO anything to the Zerg except make the Overmind, the Primals already had the Zerg's whole shtick) Raynor and Kerrigan finally got together and made out but then she had to go save the univarse because she was the Chosen One and it was sad (wait, didn't he swear to kill her after she betrayed and murdered everyone? and WHY IS KERRIGAN THE CHOSEN ONE. WHY IS A CHOSEN ONE EVEN A THING).

I actually really liked the mission gimmicks and some of the side characters. (Matt Horner, Gabriel Tosh, RIP Tychus? BAUSS. Day9 has a huge mancrush on Abathur because he is the best part of HotS.)

But when it came to the actual story? Yeah, fanfiction-tier is pretty accurate. Argh, it actually gets more frustrating the more I think about it, they basically turned it into a generic fantasy story, with a Chosen One prophesied to save the world from the Dark Lord but who wants revenge against the Evil Emperor. A heroine who was dark and goffik but got savd by her hansom boyfriend hoo will always luff her and gathered the peices of the triforce to saev her! *swoon*

Only with space lasers.

Space lasers make up for a lot, but a man has limits.

[Tectonic Robot]

The writers stated that they weren't trying to make the Overmind a good guy. They said that they really shouldn't have used Tassadar's few words to compliment it when he hated it with a passion. The creature was evil, definitely, if a slave to it's biology.

The prophecy was lame, yeah, although I didn't find the artifact to be that unlikely.

[smuchmuch]

About the primals.... is it only me or are they complete bull****? Remember SC1's huge manual with about a campaign setting's worth of fluff? Yeah they're not in that. Now that could be forgiven because the writers shouldn't have to be 100% bound to what other writers wrote almost 20 years ago if only they were interesting, but they're not, they're boring, very boring... Like most of HoTS.

Blatant retcons in a Starcraft sequel/expansion game ?! Never !

Personaly, Guancyto pretty much summed up a lot of what annoyed me in SC2 plotline so far.


StarCraft 1 was essentially Warcraft 2 in space.

Meanwhile in starcraft 2:
The orcs zergs are revealed to be arace of noble warlike savages who were corrupted by an evil influence of kil j... a demon whose name i don't quite recall Amon, the fallen Xel Naga. The wise Medivh Zeratul apper to Jaina Raynor then Thrall Kerrigan to reveal a prophecy out of nowhere; she must rally the remanant of the horde zerg and go to Kalimdor, the void.

Alas the evil Ner zhul Narud with the help of the scourge the zerg when they were still evil and the dominion has already paved the way for his sinister master arrival.

Who want to bet that in legacy of the void, it'll be to the night elves protoss to to unite some of everyone in a last stand against Archimonde Amon and this legion of powerfull demons hybrids.

No I'm not saying Sc 2 is Wc 3 in space, just that it's not exactly all that original.
Then again it's Blizzard... ('Gee this villainess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsJtqVVOL5Q) from the frozen throne WC3 expansion vaguely remind me of someone else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7IUaJVdLe4).')

[Guancyto]

The writers stated that they weren't trying to make the Overmind a good guy. They said that they really shouldn't have used Tassadar's few words to compliment it when he hated it with a passion. The creature was evil, definitely, if a slave to it's biology.

That... is interesting to know. It helps a little, but not that much.

I mean, it's good and all that they didn't intend for it to sound like Tassadar and the Overmind became BFFs in the afterlife (what's a little 'dying to ram a carrier into me to kill me' and 'killing the majority of my species' between friends?) but it means they wrote the exact opposite of what they intended!

That does not exactly inspire confidence.


The prophecy was lame, yeah, although I didn't find the artifact to be that unlikely.

Artifact made a sort of sense and I'm mostly just poking fun at them by that point in my rant (because it is totally gathering the pieces of the triforce to save Zelda). The prophecy... why. why why why why why why why why why why why if you didn't care about raynor swearing to kill kerrigan anyway why did you make her the destined savior of the universe why why hwy

gauss rifles and nuclear missiles, man. why is there destiny now, why is the universe ending now, why is there a higher plane of existence now, why are the xel'naga gods now instead of weird neglectful tinkering aliens...

...the list goes on.


Meanwhile in starcraft 2:
The orcs zergs are revealed to be arace of noble warlike savages who were corrupted by an evil influence of kil j... a demon whose name i don't quite recall Amon, the fallen Xel Naga. The wise Medivh Zeratul apper to Jaina Raynor then Thrall Kerrigan to reveal a prophecy out of nowhere; she must

ut alas the evil Ner zhul Narud with the help of the scourge the zerg when they were still evil and the dominion has already paved the way for his sinister master arrival.

Who want to bet that in legacy of the void, it'll be to the night elves protoss to to unite some of everyone in a last stand against archimonde Amon and this legion of powerfull demons hybrids.

No I'm not saying Sc 2 is Wc 3 in space, just that it's not exactly all that original.

I laughed so much. Thank you, smuch.

[Lord]

Kerrigan is clearly meant to be better than queen of blades but not better than who she was before becoming queen of blades. Her story is just really about opening up a can of pissed off fury on mengsk, and i am sure some players really wanted to do the same from the games/novels. Playing Kerrigan lets you play like being the undead in warcraft 3. Its fun playing the forces of darkness, because then you don't have to be so goodie-two-shoes anymore.


You know, a lot of fans of Star Trek: The Next Generation despised Wesley Crusher. That doesn't mean that they would accept an episode where Captain Picard smashes his skull in with a wrench completely out of the blue, for no good reason, because it would completely derail Picard's character, and killing a hated character by derailing an existing one is just terrible storytelling.

StarCraft II derailed Zeratul's character, Raynor's character, Mengsk's character, and even Kerrigan herself, all so that they could bring in a Sageras ripoff and redeem a character who everyone wanted dead. I'll admit that in Heart of the Swarm I wanted to see a redemption arc, because just having everyone forgive her instantly was absurd, but I would have preferred just having her as the main villain and having her get killed in the end.

And as for Warcraft III's undead Campaign, I'll admit that I loved the Undead Campaign. Primarily because Arthas was a breath of fresh air from the standard Then-Let-Me-Be-Evil angsty Paladin-turned-blackguard stereotype. He was having the time of his life being evil, and any doubt he might have had were buried beneath three level of mind control with a healthy dose of subtlety.

And yet even though he was killing far more sympathetic characters, I liked him better than Kerrigan because he never pretended to be a good guy once he became a Death Knight. He didn't go around making self-righteous speeches to justify his own actions, he just spent his time snarking at people. He didn't go around boasting, he let his own skills and power prove his competence.

This is all despite being far less in control of his actions than Kerrigan was, since Ner'zhul never died until he ascended the Frozen Throne, by which point it was too late to go back.

This is in sharp contrast to Kerrigan, who spends the entire game claiming that 'She is the Swarm' {except when she needs to justify slaughtering a planet full of innocents, then each and every Drone matters.}, boasting about her 'ultimate power' {right before being easily defeated by one ordinary human with a bit of prep work, and having to be saved by Raynor.}
And talking about how Mengsk 'can never suffer enough for the lives he's ruined.' {Hello pot, this is Kettle calling you from the planet hypocrisy. Your black.}.

In my mind, someone who is viciously evil and makes no claims to be good in the first place is far better than someone who speaks of justice while carving a swath through hordes of innocents just to punish one person whose crimes pale in comparison to their own, since at least the first one isn't adding hypocrisy to their list of crimes.

[GolemsVoice]

{right before being easily defeated by one ordinary human with a bit of prep work, and having to be saved by Raynor.}

It was almost like he had an artifact specifically designed to hurt her, wasn't it?

[deuterio12]

Ah, but throwing the blame of your actions in others is such an human behavior.:smallbiggrin:

[Guancyto]

It was almost like he had an artifact specifically designed to hurt her, wasn't it?

That's why you bring friends. Lots and lots of friends. Maybe even some of those Primal dudes who (despite being pretty lame, even if they did let you do a little combo'd assault on Magtheridon's stronghold/assault on Dalaran) are not vulnerable to Xel'Naga-hacks.

And come to think, why would she even be vulnerable to that again? She was no longer Xel'Naga-hacked what with that we-totally-didn't-rip-off-the-SC1-zerg-missions-because-it-is-an-HOMAGE new and improved Queen of Blades transformation.

I'm no longer feeling massively uncharitable so I won't say something like "well it's so her hottt bf has to saev her" but it still seems... odd. That was kind of the point of her double-infested thing, wasn't it? No lingering Xel'Naga-related weaknesses or backdoors?

Edit: Also, don't get me started on that psi disruptor.
The psi disruptors you build in the WoL campaign are little field units that have a pretty awesome (if short-ranged) effect.
The psi disruptor that was a plot piece in SC1 basically shattered the Swarm (even more than it already was) and was a constant problem for Kerrigan until she managed to destroy it through some desperate alliances.
The psi disruptor in the HotS campaign is the WC3 anti-undead purple death field in Dalaran.

Come ON, Mengsk, you've had years to work on this! You can do better than the purple death field! Yes, I know it's a gold slow death field now. Well done.

[Tectonic Robot]

I wouldn't compare the zerg to the orcs. They aren't noble at all. The primal zerg are hungry, nasty predators, and that's it. When Zagara says she understands the terrans she follows up with "If we could only eat all of them, that'd solve their problems". Not... not really noble demon potential there.

[russdm]

Meanwhile in starcraft 2:
The orcs zergs are revealed to be arace of noble warlike savages who were corrupted by an evil influence of kil j... a demon whose name i don't quite recall Amon, the fallen Xel Naga. The wise Medivh Zeratul apper to Jaina Raynor then Thrall Kerrigan to reveal a prophecy out of nowhere; she must rally the remanant of the horde zerg and go to Kalimdor, the void.

Alas the evil Ner zhul Narud with the help of the scourge the zerg when they were still evil and the dominion has already paved the way for his sinister master arrival.

Who want to bet that in legacy of the void, it'll be to the night elves protoss to to unite some of everyone in a last stand against Archimonde Amon and this legion of powerfull demons hybrids.

No I'm not saying Sc 2 is Wc 3 in space, just that it's not exactly all that original.
Then again it's Blizzard... ('Gee this villainess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsJtqVVOL5Q) from the frozen throne WC3 expansion vaguely remind me of someone else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7IUaJVdLe4).')

See? Its totally what I am saying. Blizzard is just rehashing plotiness from other games they have made. They did it for StarCraft 1/Brood Wars, and now that did with StarCraft 2 so far using Warcraft 3 plus exp. Should this be suprising, really people?

Oh, and Blizzard retconning stuff, can I just say the Orcs getting retconned from War 2 to War 3?

[Guancyto]

Oh, and Blizzard retconning stuff, can I just say the Orcs getting retconned from War 2 to War 3?

I'll do you one better.

Draenei getting retconned from War 2 to War 3 to World of Warcraft.

They really did well for themselves! They went from complete extinction to being weird swamp dudes to being sexy blue space goats whose ancestors maybe corrupted the Big Bad guy or maybe he corrupted them or WHO KNOWS ANYMORE.

(Yeah, I was one of those huge dorks who read the manual. War2 orc story starts out killing the very last of the Draenei, and the Horde's troubles with having nobody left to fight.

They've really come a long way!)

[Traab]

That's why you bring friends. Lots and lots of friends. Maybe even some of those Primal dudes who (despite being pretty lame, even if they did let you do a little combo'd assault on Magtheridon's stronghold/assault on Dalaran) are not vulnerable to Xel'Naga-hacks.

And come to think, why would she even be vulnerable to that again? She was no longer Xel'Naga-hacked what with that we-totally-didn't-rip-off-the-SC1-zerg-missions-because-it-is-an-HOMAGE new and improved Queen of Blades transformation.

I'm no longer feeling massively uncharitable so I won't say something like "well it's so her hottt bf has to saev her" but it still seems... odd. That was kind of the point of her double-infested thing, wasn't it? No lingering Xel'Naga-related weaknesses or backdoors?

Edit: Also, don't get me started on that psi disruptor.
The psi disruptors you build in the WoL campaign are little field units that have a pretty awesome (if short-ranged) effect.
The psi disruptor that was a plot piece in SC1 basically shattered the Swarm (even more than it already was) and was a constant problem for Kerrigan until she managed to destroy it through some desperate alliances.
The psi disruptor in the HotS campaign is the WC3 anti-undead purple death field in Dalaran.

Come ON, Mengsk, you've had years to work on this! You can do better than the purple death field! Yes, I know it's a gold slow death field now. Well done.

The artifact when triggered during the fight killed zerg and hurt kerrigan bad. Thats how mengsk was using it. So any zerg forces in the room with her, primal included, likely would have exploded. She only survives because she is an ultra powerful zerg unit. Even stronger than she was at the end of WoL.

As for the storyline, what I had WANTED to see was, the drama of raynor and valarion trying to help kerrigan regain control of the now out of control swarm. Meanwhile she is struggling with the reasonable fear of losing herself in the swarm and needs raynor with her to keep her bloodthirsty mood swings in check. Arcturas is virtually meaningless for most of this arc. He is small potatoes, and raynor/kerrigan are working on saving the universe, while valerion is along to build up an alliance to finish daddy later. You know, when all of reality ISNT in danger of being sucked into oblivion.

After they regain full control over the swarm, and sarah manages to maintain control over herself, they then go and wipe out arcturas in a single strategic set of attacks to keep the death toll down and put valarion in his place, who has pledged his support to the cause. Thats where it ends. This gives us the zerg and terrans ready and raring to go for the big final confrontation. Now we just need zeratul to gather the protoss from cold storage or whatever the hell he has to do to gather the army, then we get to go xel naga hunting.

[Guancyto]

No, no, see.

When the artifact asplode, humans aren't hurt because humans aren't Xel'Naga creations (at least, this is my understanding from WoL).

Primal Zerg (as much as I wish they weren't a thing) aren't Xel'Naga creations, so they should be just as unaffected as humans.

Kerrigan, having been deinfested by that very artifact and then Primal Zerg'ified... counts as a Xel'Naga creation? Then what was even the point of getting Primal Zerg'ified if she's still vulnerable to Xel'Naga "oh **** our creations are out of control" weapons (which is what them ar-te-facts pretty clearly are)?

[Traab]

No, no, see.

When the artifact asplode, humans aren't hurt because humans aren't Xel'Naga creations (at least, this is my understanding from WoL).

Primal Zerg (as much as I wish they weren't a thing) aren't Xel'Naga creations, so they should be just as unaffected as humans.

Kerrigan, having been deinfested by that very artifact and then Primal Zerg'ified... counts as a Xel'Naga creation? Then what was even the point of getting Primal Zerg'ified if she's still vulnerable to Xel'Naga "oh **** our creations are out of control" weapons (which is what them ar-te-facts pretty clearly are)?

Are you sure the primals werent also created by the xelnaga, and they just didnt run off with the overmind? Im a bit hazy on the storyline, and am still playing through the start of the game again to refresh my memory, (gotta get me my frozen roaches and infest some protoss dammit!)

The main advantage of the primals was a lack of a psionic connection and control, making the psi disruptor tech pretty much worthless. But Im not sure if the primal zerg werent also created by the xel naga and just didnt run off with the overmind.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'll do you one better.

Draenei getting retconned from War 2 to War 3 to World of Warcraft.

They really did well for themselves! They went from complete extinction to being weird swamp dudes to being sexy blue space goats whose ancestors maybe corrupted the Big Bad guy or maybe he corrupted them or WHO KNOWS ANYMORE.

(Yeah, I was one of those huge dorks who read the manual. War2 orc story starts out killing the very last of the Draenei, and the Horde's troubles with having nobody left to fight.

They've really come a long way!)

AARGGHHH

The Eredar being retconned from space devils to draenei made me SO AGGRAVATED YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW MAN

I really enjoyed Warcraft 3. I never played the first two Warcraft's, so I wouldn't know about retcons, but Warcraft 3's story was very cool to me. Arthas was a pretty fantastic evil commander, but I enjoyed all of the campaigns.

[russdm]

Look, its the deal with Midicolarions(However they are spelled) in star wars and the force. It makes absolutely no sense, but then no sense was actually ever used in describing how the force interaction of jedi/sith/force-users was happening before lucas put them in.

Also, there is nothing suggesting that the primals were all that way when the xel'naga were zerg making. Pay actual attention to what happens on Zerus: Its made nearly clear that the primals are all made from AFTER the xel'naga made the zerg into a quasi-Go'auld parasite copy. Then they and the other zergies start developing only for the overmind to get popped.

And you could see the xel'naga artifact being solely designed to cleanse the zerg of the dark voice/Amon's evil taint. Because despite being zapped by raynor in WoL, Kerrigan still has zerg traits/dna in her, look at her hair!!! and so the artifact should have worked again.

Think of the primals as what should have happened with the zerg if Amon had messed around with them so he/she could destroy the other xel'naga. In fact, Amon could be Sargaras.

Read Rise of the Horde. Its heavily implied that the Draenie leader had his people fake their own deaths so that the orcs and Kil'jaeden would leave them all. It was all part of the plan to make Kil'jaeden lose control of the orcs. Its stated in beyond the dark portal book that the draenie hid out from the orcs and continued to do so.

Another grudge you should have would be regarding Garona, blackhand's half-orc daughter. Whats the other half? Its not human according to anything in game; when the orcs show and have the war, there is simply not enough time for garona to be the age she is in game unless she is some kid who ended up with medivh to "give" him a kid or killed Varian's dad. According to stuff, it was all one year or something, not twenty. Its not ogre, as we see one later in the orc campaign in war 3 frozen throne. The hero you "play" as is a orc-ogre guy.

Just my two minerals/Vespene Gas/Pylons.

Not Enough Pylons for this conversation to continue. Build additional Pylons.

[GolemsVoice]

Maybe the artifact hurt her because she was still Zerg, and thus a Zel'Naga creation one way or another? But it didn't kill her outright, because she wasn't fully infested anymore. I'm fine with that.

[Traab]

Maybe the artifact hurt her because she was still Zerg, and thus a Zel'Naga creation one way or another? But it didn't kill her outright, because she wasn't fully infested anymore. I'm fine with that.

I still say the reason it didnt kill her is because it never had that ability. In the final campaign, all it does is hurt her really bad. All other zerg pop like infected pimples. She takes heavy damage and your troops can shoot her like she is freaking godzilla until she retreats for a few minutes. And the big cinematic ending clearly shows a freaking MASSIVE pulse when it finally reaches its full charge or whatever. Thats not what its doing in HotS. Its a small pulse that hurts her like hell. Because she is still zerg. Maybe not the same zerg she was before, but zerg.

[Traab]

Ok, I played up to zeras, the xelnaga made the primals as well. They got left behind when the zerg moved on though and evolved their own way.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ok, I played up to zeras, the xelnaga made the primals as well. They got left behind when the zerg moved on though and evolved their own way.

Huh? I thought that the dragon's story meant that when Amon came, they hid, or were overlooked because he didn't need all of them.

[Starbuck_II]

I wouldn't compare the zerg to the orcs. They aren't noble at all. The primal zerg are hungry, nasty predators, and that's it. When Zagara says she understands the terrans she follows up with "If we could only eat all of them, that'd solve their problems". Not... not really noble demon potential there.

Eating people is very noble. You just don't understand.

[Traab]

Eating people is very noble. You just don't understand.

Kerrigan: "YEAH! Stop oppressing our culture, you ethnocentric $%#@%$#@!!!!"



Huh? I thought that the dragon's story meant that when Amon came, they hid, or were overlooked because he didn't need all of them.

I hadnt reached that stage, so far I just have the word of zeratul to go on. I will be waking up the ancient one soon then I can find out.

*EDIT* Ok, so I talked with the ancient one, he says the xelnaga made them too, but when amon came and created the swarm we all knew and loved, the primals remained hidden and "pure" So the primals do not have the taint of amon on them. The problem I have with that is the implication. Either something protected the primals from being spotted, or amon didnt care if he missed a few here and there and just took the bulk of the zerg with him.

[Guancyto]

Well consarn it. Here I thought I had found an actual plot hole, but nooo.

(If they are Xel'Naga craft projects that's fine, WoL talks about how it would be equally effective against Protoss so them ar-te-facts ain't got nothin' to do with this here Sargeras fella.)

[Grif]

Well, I just got the HOTS expansion.

Time to see what's the hullabaloo about. (Given how WoL already disappointed me in terms of story, I don't see HOTS doing any better. Don't get me wrong though, the campaign was very fun to play through. But the story drops plot holes like swiss cheese.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Re: Primals. I enjoy the Primals as a concept, -individuals that evolve rather then a species- and i can understand them being introduced perhaps for the sake of further separating the Zerg from their Tyranid source-material, but i will admit other then that they are kind of silly. The Sentience thing for one bugs me, individually-evolving wild animals is cool, but give them an independent mind and they're just more humans in facepaint as far as i'm concerned, plus they would have been more interesting to fight as wild beasts. Although the question as to how they reproduce does come into question, the best guesses i have are that any primal can mate with any other that is about the same size no matter what they look like, or maybe they kind of just drop smaller versions of themselves off who then run off and start killing and changing to keep genetics diverse.


I haven't read the entire thread, but has anyone here talked about Niadra yet? Hers was my favourite mission in HOTS by far, and the general concept of it's ending to me is fascinating. A brood of Zerg trapped on a ship they can't assimilate, drifting between planets slowly towards their final destination, with a limited supply of biomass due to being unable to stop for supplies. I like to picture them going feral as other zerg did after the queen of blades first died, creating their own little zerg ecosystem within the confines of the ship, evolving and changing rapidly in order to survive against all the other zerg lifeforms inhabiting the ship with them, creating newer, stronger, more efficient zerg all due to the limited biomass available to them. And then when they finally land (read; likely crash) on the Protess (home?) world it is heading for in likely more then a few years, the Protoss will be up against some powerful and truely unique zerg not ever before seen, all programed from an ainciant time with two goals in mind. "Kill the protoss, become stronger."

[Traab]

Yeah, i fully expect niadra to factor into the protoss expansion in some way. Possibly as a method of adding even more strain to what will be an obviously shaky alliance between kerrigan and the armada. Like you said, she will crash land on aiur or somewhere important and that will bring up her actions AFTER she stopped being the queen of blades, which makes things even worse in the eyes of the protoss.