Is there a spell that serves the same purpose as resting for 8 hours?

[Ignominia]

Even writing this I see how unlikely it is (essentially you'd never have to rest again)

Here's the scenario;
Im DMing a group through Grasp of the Emerald Claw. The group has been roleplaying a heroic dash for the McGuffin very well. Not stopping to rest and rushing head long after the BBEG because "the fate of the world..." etc etc etc. Ive dropped subtle hints that they may want to rest before they tackle BBEG, but their response has unanimously been "No! If we give <BBEG> too much time he will obtain the <MCGUFFIN> and all will be lost!"

Now, they have done REALLY well, they are only at about half of their used consumables. Plus they have a number of scrolls and wands to add to their usefulness. However, for those of you who are familiar with Grasp of the Emerald Claw, you'll know that the BBEG is a BIG Bad Evil Guy... and Im worried they are just not going to be able to make it through.

So heres what I was thinking. The have been traveling with an NPC who is an agent for The Chamber (dragons studying the draconic prophecy) and I was thinking that she could bust out a one time use scroll of "Everyones rested 8 hours!" or scroll of "everyones spells are back!". I don't want to hand them a freebie, but at the same time, Im really proud of the group for roleplaying the severity of the issue and not taking the time to rest and don't want to punish them for not resting.

Thoughts?

Do I just say "a wizard did it!" and rest them up for free?
or,
Let them be heroes and try to kill BBEG with what they have left?

[Firechanter]

Plane Shift.

To a plane where time moves so fast, that after a full night's rest there, only a single round (or ten minutes or whatever) has passed on Material Prime.

[bekeleven]

There's a bedroll that lets you reprepare spells with only 1 hour of rest, but it doesn't give you slots for spells you've cast - only shuffle slots you still have.

My opinion is, if the players want to take him on with no spells, let 'em.

If you're feeling charitable, he blew half of his spells getting there.

If you're not... he didn't.

[Icarusthefallen]

Do I just say "a wizard did it!" and rest them up for free?
or,
Let them be heroes and try to kill BBEG with what they have left?

I'm much more of the playstyle to say, after they TPK, I gave you fair warning and chances, sorry that it happened that way but the BBEG got the MCGUFFIN after he/she/it killed you and thats that. However I also tend to have a very understanding group who enjoys hard games and are resolved that they might die and generally deal with it alright.

If you don't think they are of that style, then perhaps there are examples from other great fantasy movies/games/sources that show even the mightiest of heroes stopping to rest. Cite those examples and if they still don't heed the caution pop a "that guy did it" and carry on. Let me go see if I can find some examples...

[Hamste]

Let them be heroes...no one wants to have an npc that just suddenly saves them like that. They could die but if they do then that is their own fault as that is what they decided. It will be depressing if they do lose but if you are creative you could figure out a way for them to live (perhaps through resurrections of some sorts) and delay whatever doomsday scenario long enough that they get another crack at the BBEG (more subtle then having a npc pull out a random scroll to restore them). Of course I am not familiar with that module so I don't know if that is with in story line for it to happen. The important thing though is to not Deus Ex Machina in a blatant way and make the players feel like they are only surviving the fight because you helped them.

[ahenobarbi]

There's a bedroll that lets you reprepare spells with only 1 hour of rest, but it doesn't give you slots for spells you've cast - only shuffle slots you still have.

Heward's Fortifying Bedroll from Complete Mage - gives you full benefits of 8h rest (including ability to prepare spells) after just 1h of resting.


IMHO have a little chat with your players to make sure they won't regret what they're doing (i.e. tell them that this may end in TPK but if they're in to fell more awesome they can try) and respect their decision.

[Icarusthefallen]

Let them be heroes...no one wants to have an npc that just suddenly saves them like that. They could die but if they do then that is their own fault as that is what they decided. It will be depressing if they do lose but if you are creative you could figure out a way for them to live (perhaps through resurrections of some sorts) and delay whatever doomsday scenario long enough that they get another crack at the BBEG (more subtle then having a npc pull out a random scroll to restore them). Of course I am not familiar with that module so I don't know if that is with in story line for it to happen. The important thing though is to not Deus Ex Machina in a blatant way and make the players feel like they are only surviving the fight because you helped them.

If I might piggy back off of this comment, the NPC you have running around with them could pull out a Mass Rez, or reincarnate scroll, bring them back, teleport them all to a "safe" town and have them rest and heal but meanwhile the BBEG is also hurt and hampered therefore unable to go right after the ______ and decides to take revenge on the party before he completes his world domination schemes. They get to try, fail if they do, you get to save them and have a reason to prolong the, as above stated, doomsday.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, remember that divine casters DON'T NEED REST TO PREPARE THEIR SPELLS. It happens a a given point in the day, not after rest. I play divine casters who, once restoration and it's lesser version become cheap, don't ever sleep.

How long have they been pushing? Did they walk through the night? If so, the party cleric should be right about ready to get his spells refreshed with dawn coming.

Slip them a Heward's Fortifying Bedroll in the next loot pile so the wizard can catch a nap while the fighter and cleric carry the bedroll like a stretcher.

There, you provided a little boost, but not an unreasonable one.

[Segev]

Well, you clearly believe they have the time to rest, that the bad guy won't get too far ahead with his plans for them to stop. Given that, what might the bad guy, himself, have less prepared without 8 hours extra to rest up and ready himself? If they DO rest, what will he be doing for those 8 hours? Their choice to NOT rest should cost the BBEG that time, too.

[animewatcha]

Can you tweak the BBEG to play a bit differently than if they were fully rested? Lowering the difficulty a bit? Instead of say ( I don't have the module ) casting blasphemy every round, magic missile instead. Example's sake.

[Ignominia]

They have unfortunately come to the "point of no return" in the adventure. We literally left off with the BBEG reveal and they are about to roll initiative. So if the NPC was gonna pull any cats outta the hat, now is the time.

It should be said that I DO have a plan if we TPK, spinning it off into another set of adventures with new characters who would avenge the death of the fallen group.

I think I may give my players the choice. Let them know that if they feel overwhelmed they can take this free out via one time (round trip) use of plane shift to a pocket dimension created by the npc's draconic master. Or, they can be HEROES. And risk the slight possibility of TPK. ;)

[Psyren]

They have unfortunately come to the "point of no return" in the adventure. We literally left off with the BBEG reveal and they are about to roll initiative. So if the NPC was gonna pull any cats outta the hat, now is the time.

It should be said that I DO have a plan if we TPK, spinning it off into another set of adventures with new characters who would avenge the death of the fallen group.

I think I may give my players the choice. Let them know that if they feel overwhelmed they can take this free out via one time (round trip) use of plane shift to a pocket dimension created by the npc's draconic master. Or, they can be HEROES. And risk the slight possibility of TPK. ;)

The players' choice here obviously depends on how attached they are to their current characters. They may not want to do a spin-off.

[Firechanter]

You know what, that might actually cut the adventure short. =D

It's one of these things where, by default, the adventurers arrive precisely at the time that the BBEG has completed / is about to complete his BB Dark Ritual.
Now, if the adventurers arrive 9 hours earlier... played straight, they might be able to disrupt the BBDR before the BBEG can do anything about it.
(e: IF they even make it that far; there are quite a few encounters in the final chapter before the boss fight.)

[Lord Haart]

I propose to be fair. If they didn't rest to get to BBEG earlier, they do get to him earlier, despite the pre-written module not assuming that it's possible to move faster than the plot. So if they arrived eight hours earlier, perhaps BBEG didn't catch his rest too? Perhaps he'd spent some of his spells on getting here himself, or on defensive measures, or he had scried their position this morning, assumed that they're too far to reach him until tomorrow and prepared Heroic Feast and self-targeted Hideous Laughter in all his slot except the emergency ones? And perhaps — just perhaps, if the plot allows it — when the party bursts in, he'll behave like a proper wizard does and use these emergensy slots to roll up a Rope Trick and get his sleep while heroes get theirs and/or set up an ambush?

[Ruethgar]

The Lucid Dreaming skill may work. Fall asleep, DC 5 to become aware that you are dreaming. Go to sleep in your dreamscape. Congratulations, you can get a full night's rest in a tenth the time. All you need is 54 minutes of real time and you'll have 8 hours of sleep and have your spells prepared. If the NPC had a one-time skill boost he may be able to pull the party into a dream and get them to sleep there, or go into their dreams and convince them to sleep/prepare spells.

[Segev]

A friend of mine suggested having hte PCs come upon the villain while he is sleeping, since they're foregoing theirs. Me, I thought it'd be funny to have them walk in on him in the bath tub. Scrubby brush on the back and suds up to his chest.

[navar100]

2E had Nap where you can sleep for two hours and act as if you rested for 8, including the ability to regain spells. I don't think 3E adopted it. Pathfinder did with Nap Stack but limited it to only being able to benefit from the spell once per week.

[Erik Vale]

The Lucid Dreaming skill may work. Fall asleep, DC 5 to become aware that you are dreaming. Go to sleep in your dreamscape. Congratulations, you can get a full night's rest in a tenth the time. All you need is 54 minutes of real time and you'll have 8 hours of sleep and have your spells prepared. If the NPC had a one-time skill boost he may be able to pull the party into a dream and get them to sleep there, or go into their dreams and convince them to sleep/prepare spells.

Ok, how many recursions until you have 8 hours rest in 1 round, just to make warlocks suicide.

And would you really allow that, or expect to get away with it without a large suspiciously book like bruise.


Edit: 3 recursions, for 5.16 seconds... and only 3 DC 5 skill checks, you can do that untrained reliably with the right stats....

[shaikujin]

You can use the "Untiring Form" spell from the Dragonlance book "Holy Orders of the Stars".

Level 3 Cleric/4 Druid/4 Ranger.
Lasts 1 day/4 level.

Target becomes immune to fatigue and exhaustion. Also prepared casters can prep spells even if they do not sleep. Only limit is that spells cast within the previous 8 hours still count against the normal daily allotment.



Alternatively, just use Wish.

[NichG]

For what its worth, I'd rule that beyond the 'safe' zone of Wish as it is basically emulating a large number of castings of Mage's Lucubration.

That said, an Energy Transformation Field (SpC) set to pump out Mage's Lucubrations and a friendly caster willing to burn their slots to power it would effectively let anyone using the location to refill all spells Lv5 and lower. That'd actually be a kind of cool magical location and it saves you the issue of annoying precedents like accelerated time planes.

[Alefiend]

If you'll accept Pathfinder sources, there's Keep Watch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/keep-watch). I've gotten some mileage out of it as a player.

[Qc Storm]

Ray of Resurgence is a level 1 cleric spell that bumps fatigue or exhaustion up one step. Apply directly to forehead and repeat as necessary.

Divine caster do not actually need sleep to prepare spells. Martial characters only need to not be fatigued.

As for the arcane casters, have them run across a misplaced shipment of ACME™ unreliable Pearls of Power, all of which break after a single use.

[danzibr]

We need an update!

Sort of late, but I'd let them do as they please without going easy on them.

[Segev]

To my mind, it's not about "going easy" on them. The DM has indicated that, due to his omniscient knowledge of the module, he knows that the PCs have time to rest and get to the climactic encounter "on time." This means that the climactic encounter was going to happen some 8-12 hours "from now." Assuming the villain wasn't going to twiddle his thumbs until the heroes arrived, this means he has some reason he was going to wait that amount of time before perpetrating his villainous deed.

Therefore, the PCs' choice not to rest makes them get there 8-12 hours early. They took a calculated risk, believing that every moment counted. The reward is that they do, in fact, arrive there early, because they chose to forgo an 8+ hour delay.

I don't know the module or the DM's plans. I can't say what the bad guy will be doing 8-12 hours before the climactic battle was "supposed" to happen. But let them catch him off-guard. In the shower, in the bathtub, taking a nap, whatever. He's not ready for them, and his plan's not at the critical point yet that they needed to rush there to thwart. This buys them time to stop him and potentially buys them a weakened or unprepared foe.

It's no more "going easy" on them than not changing a dungeon room made of ropes to swing from over a spike-filled chasm gain arrows that shoot at flying creatures because the mage thought to prepare and cast Mass Fly is "going easy" on them.

They took action - action the DM believes is risky - to gain a specific result. That result is "get there faster." So letting them get there faster (rather than assuming this is Final Fantasy time, and thus it doesn't matter if they teleport there immediately or take eight weeks to do side quests, they'll still get there "right on time") is not "going easy." It's rewarding their effort.

It may not be as rewarding as taking the time to rest was, in pure mechanical terms. That's up to the DM. But they should at least have the satisfaction of seeing that they got there well before the timer was approaching zero. At least 8 hours before. They should get the satisfaction of their choice having meaning based on a living world, and not merely punishment in terms of having their resources depleted. Again, if this "arriving early" wouldn't help, so be it. But at least let them do so in a notable way so they KNOW they didn't just make a sub-optimal mechanical decision because the world runs on drama-time.

[Icarusthefallen]

One other way you could look at it is, simply ask the players what it is they are hoping to accomplish by arriving early? That might make it a little more simple for you. I agree with many of the above that the BBEG might be caught off guard or in the tub etc but, if I were a BBEG, why would I be waisting my resources (spells, items, etc.) when I obviously have minions doing the work for me. Not many evil kings went to the front line, many sat on the throne waiting for good news or bad, but they waited, prepared, etc.

I see both sides of the arguement and as such would ask my players what they saw of value in rushing ahead.

[Lucid]

I'm going to agree with some of the other posters.
They've been rushing, so they surprise the Big Bad before he could make all his preparations. This should give them some edge without cheapening the encounter.

Or maybe he's been forced to speed up his timetable, and therefore doesn't have access to all his resources either.

[Ignominia]

The suggestions some of you have been making are excellent. And it makes perfect sense, rush to catch the guy, catch him with his pants down...

However... Grasp of the Emerald Claw spoilers below.
The encounter is against an ancient construct that has just awakened from 40000 of slumber, it is already weakened at the start of the encounter (its still under construction) and still presents a significant threat. It has no spells to prepare or defenses other than the fact that its a Huge hunk of walking metal. It has an intelligent item (which is actually the boss itself, its just using the construct as host) that has Intelligent item powers as per the DMG but other than that, its a "HULK SMASH" scenario.

[ahenobarbi]

The suggestions some of you have been making are excellent. And it makes perfect sense, rush to catch the guy, catch him with his pants down...

However... Grasp of the Emerald Claw spoilers below.
The encounter is against an ancient construct that has just awakened from 40000 of slumber, it is already weakened at the start of the encounter (its still under construction) and still presents a significant threat. It has no spells to prepare or defenses other than the fact that its a Huge hunk of walking metal. It has an intelligent item (which is actually the boss itself, its just using the construct as host) that has Intelligent item powers as per the DMG but other than that, its a "HULK SMASH" scenario.


Making the boss weaker (because there was less time to perform construction work) seems to fit perfectly.

I don't know specifics of the creature but likely weakenings would be: less HP (because less construction), less AC (incomplete armor), reduced str (incomplete "engine"), missing special attacks (not installed yet), weakened attacks (weapons not completed).

Choose something that'll make sense and reward PCs appropriately for arriving early.

[Icarusthefallen]

I'm going to have to look up that module since it sounds pretty interesting but I agree with the above post that it should be easy to make a small change to him based on construction time. That seems perfect, rewards the PCs but doesnt cheapen the encounter drastically.

[Segev]

Okay, responding to the spoiler text given above about the encounter with some questions:

So what makes the party believe that time is of the essence? How much construction is going to be done between now and 8 hours from now? Do they know they're facing a construct?

If they know the situation going in - and I imagine they must have SOME inkling, since they have gone through the adventure and know where to go to have this boss fight - they should have some idea of what the time pressure is or is not. What do they BELIEVE the time pressure is? What do they think will happen during their rest that would make waiting catastrophic? What WOULD happen in the time they were resting, assuming they chose to rest rather than press on? Have that not have happened, as a first step.

If they should KNOW that the 8+ hours won't make a material difference, then tell them so. It's like trying to catch a plane: if the plane leaves at 10 pm, it doesn't matter if you get to the airport at 8 am or 8 pm, you're still going to make the flight. If it's more like trying to stop a mad bomber from finishing his bomb, then it makes more sense to rush in.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

For what its worth, I'd rule that beyond the 'safe' zone of Wish as it is basically emulating a large number of castings of Mage's Lucubration.

Except that, as others have shown, there are spells that do just that, which are well within Wish's tolerance levels.

[NichG]

Except that, as others have shown, there are spells that do just that, which are well within Wish's tolerance levels.

None of the spells quoted in this thread actually do what the OP wanted though (restore cast spells without rest). There are spells that let you prepare into empty/unspent slots, spells that let you avoid Fatigue/Exhaustion, etc, but so far I think 'Lucubration' is the only spell that has been mentioned that does anything close to restoring spent spells, and that only restores a single spell of 5th level or less (thus my comment about using it in an ETF).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Lucid Dreaming skill may work. Fall asleep, DC 5 to become aware that you are dreaming. Go to sleep in your dreamscape. Congratulations, you can get a full night's rest in a tenth the time. All you need is 54 minutes of real time and you'll have 8 hours of sleep and have your spells prepared. If the NPC had a one-time skill boost he may be able to pull the party into a dream and get them to sleep there, or go into their dreams and convince them to sleep/prepare spells.


You can use the "Untiring Form" spell from the Dragonlance book "Holy Orders of the Stars".

Level 3 Cleric/4 Druid/4 Ranger.
Lasts 1 day/4 level.

Target becomes immune to fatigue and exhaustion. Also prepared casters can prep spells even if they do not sleep. Only limit is that spells cast within the previous 8 hours still count against the normal daily allotment.



Alternatively, just use Wish.


None of the spells quoted in this thread actually do what the OP wanted though (restore cast spells without rest). There are spells that let you prepare into empty/unspent slots, spells that let you avoid Fatigue/Exhaustion, etc, but so far I think 'Lucubration' is the only spell that has been mentioned that does anything close to restoring spent spells, and that only restores a single spell of 5th level or less (thus my comment about using it in an ETF).

Bold for emphasis. You were saying?

[ArcaneGlyph]

If it was me, as long as the place they are chasing the BBEG through is neutral territory, I would be making him expend resources to traverse the area at the same rate the PCs had to spend theirs. If however he has home court advantage... those PCs are in a world of trouble and should know better. As a DM though the scroll idea works, or you could place a font of inspiration which if drank from provides energies simulating 8 hours rest. Once all the party members have drank the font is empty and replenishes at a rate of 1 drop of water per month (to deter return visits). Could be a fun device to place, do they drink? is it poison? do they smash the font? maybe place a riddle inscription on the lip of the bowl?

[Doc_Maynot]

3rd Party Book, Open Game Content. Encyclopaedia Arcane-Chronomancy
24 Hours-Wiz/Sorc 7, Ages target a day, but they gain 24 hours of rest. Only down side is no preparing spells. Everything else is as usualy for a 24 hour day of rest though.

[NichG]

You can use the "Untiring Form" spell from the Dragonlance book "Holy Orders of the Stars".

Level 3 Cleric/4 Druid/4 Ranger.
Lasts 1 day/4 level.

Target becomes immune to fatigue and exhaustion. Also prepared casters can prep spells even if they do not sleep. Only limit is that spells cast within the previous 8 hours still count against the normal daily allotment.



Alternatively, just use Wish.


Bold for emphasis. You were saying?

This spell doesn't restore spent spells, it just lets you change which ones you have prepared in slots you haven't spent. Also, the lucid dreaming thing is a particular use of a skill, not a spell, so its not emulatable with Wish.

[Alefiend]

Also, the lucid dreaming thing is a particular use of a skill, not a spell, so its not emulatable with Wish.

You can't be serious. Skills are a mundane things which magic is able to either duplicate or outperform. We have spells like Spider Climb to account for not everybody being good at climbing, and Legend Lore to make up for not being a walking library. Wish can create mundane and magical items without the use of craft skills or feats. There is no serious reason to believe a Wish spell—arguably the most powerful mortal magic before considering Epic-level crap—can't duplicate the effects of a skill that anybody can learn.

Also, the description of Wish was written long before there was a Lucid Dreaming skill, so the guidelines can't be expected to take it into account anyway.

[NichG]

You can't be serious. Skills are a mundane things which magic is able to either duplicate or outperform. We have spells like Spider Climb to account for not everybody being good at climbing, and Legend Lore to make up for not being a walking library. Wish can create mundane and magical items without the use of craft skills or feats. There is no serious reason to believe a Wish spell—arguably the most powerful mortal magic before considering Epic-level crap—can't duplicate the effects of a skill that anybody can learn.


Very simply put, the reason is that Wish has a specific list of things that are 'safe' for it to do, and everything else is subject to being twisted. Duplicating skill use is not on that safe list.

You may still be able to Wish for it, but there's nothing stopping the Wish from accomplishing it by putting you to sleep for 8 hours. Or, for that matter, turning you into a dung beetle. Once you leave the safe list, there are no guarantees.

Also, I'd disagree that all skill use must be mundane, and furthermore that all mundane things must be replicable by magic. Lucid Dreaming as a skill clearly accomplishes things beyond the mundane.

[Thrudd]

They have unfortunately come to the "point of no return" in the adventure. We literally left off with the BBEG reveal and they are about to roll initiative. So if the NPC was gonna pull any cats outta the hat, now is the time.

It should be said that I DO have a plan if we TPK, spinning it off into another set of adventures with new characters who would avenge the death of the fallen group.

I think I may give my players the choice. Let them know that if they feel overwhelmed they can take this free out via one time (round trip) use of plane shift to a pocket dimension created by the npc's draconic master. Or, they can be HEROES. And risk the slight possibility of TPK. ;)

So, they are in the vault already, with the giant warforged and the creation forge? Or are they just about to fight Garrow? If they are already in the vault with Xulo being sentient, I think it's too late to do anything. If they are fighting Garrow, you can make Garrow have fewer spells prepared. Good for them, for roleplaying and going along with the railroad plot (typical for modern commercial adventures), I would just see it through to the end. They did great, and this is how the adventure is written and is meant to go. I would say if they still have half their resources left by the final room, they are doing better than a lot of parties would have and ought to have a decent chance. It is not realistic to expect them to have stopped and rested in the middle of the temple, or to leave and rest back at the boat when everyone is still conscious and with some spells remaining, never mind considering the urgency of the plot. I can only conclude the designers of the adventure felt this was doable (though obviously they did consider the possibility the PC's could lose the fight, you don't want it to be too easy). Maybe if they hack apart some of the cords, and then escape before they all get killed, they can rest up and come back to fight him again. The adventure doesn't specify how long it takes Xulo to complete the warforged and leave the room. It might be a couple days. If it isn't an immediate TPK, I would let them retreat, rest, and come back, and if they managed to do some damage before they retreated it will take that much longer to get the warforged completely operational. If you really feel the fight needs to be easier, maybe chopping the cords reduces some of the warforged's attack bonus as well as its Con, or it loses a feat, or something. Or just make less of them, or give them far fewer HP, to make it a little more viable to attack the creation forge instead of the warforged itself. As it is written, it would almost be pointless to do this, your only hope is going after the AC 26 warforged.

[navar100]

Very simply put, the reason is that Wish has a specific list of things that are 'safe' for it to do, and everything else is subject to being twisted. Duplicating skill use is not on that safe list.

You may still be able to Wish for it, but there's nothing stopping the Wish from accomplishing it by putting you to sleep for 8 hours. Or, for that matter, turning you into a dung beetle. Once you leave the safe list, there are no guarantees.

Also, I'd disagree that all skill use must be mundane, and furthermore that all mundane things must be replicable by magic. Lucid Dreaming as a skill clearly accomplishes things beyond the mundane.

Just how is using a skill a "greater effect" than duplicating an 8th level spell, undo misfortune, creating a 25,000 gp item, transport travelers, or grant a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. That's what the spell description says, "greater effects".

Need further proof?

Limited Wish is a 7th level spell, which is less than 8th level, thus within the almighty safe parameters of Wish. It's a Universal spell, thus never "prohibited". Among the descriptions of what Limited Wish can do is "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects". How is using a skill more powerful than duplicating a 6th level spell or undo Geas or Insanity or even the examples given of autohitting on next attack or giving someone -7 to a saving throw?

[NichG]

Just how is using a skill a "greater effect" than duplicating an 8th level spell, undo misfortune, creating a 25,000 gp item, transport travelers, or grant a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. That's what the spell description says, "greater effects".

Need further proof?

Limited Wish is a 7th level spell, which is less than 8th level, thus within the almighty safe parameters of Wish. It's a Universal spell, thus never "prohibited". Among the descriptions of what Limited Wish can do is "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects". How is using a skill more powerful than duplicating a 6th level spell or undo Geas or Insanity or even the examples given of autohitting on next attack or giving someone -7 to a saving throw?

Simply put, there is a list of things which 'if you use Wish/Limited Wish for this, you're in the clear, no adjudication required'. Once you start asking for qualitative things like 'is this a greater or lesser effect' you run the risk of calling for interpretation.

To put it another way, the DM can't screw you over for asking to duplicate, say, Leomund's Tiny Hut. The DM can screw you over if you ask to 'be able to sleep here safely', even though the effects are the same. Because in the former case, its just the spell effect and thats explicitly on the list, but in the later case the DM can say 'asking to be completely safe goes beyond what any spell can actually do - a god could always interrupt your sleep, the world could end, etc - therefore, it gets twisted'.

The point of sticking to the safe list is that its explicit, just as 'magic missile' produces a certain number of projectiles each doing a certain amount of damage, but a spell that 'deals a grievous wound to an enemy' without defining what that means would be problematic.

[shaikujin]

You can use the "Untiring Form" spell from the Dragonlance book "Holy Orders of the Stars".

Level 3 Cleric/4 Druid/4 Ranger.
Lasts 1 day/4 level.

Target becomes immune to fatigue and exhaustion. Also prepared casters can prep spells even if they do not sleep. Only limit is that spells cast within the previous 8 hours still count against the normal daily allotment.



Alternatively, just use Wish.


This spell doesn't restore spent spells, it just lets you change which ones you have prepared in slots you haven't spent. Also, the lucid dreaming thing is a particular use of a skill, not a spell, so its not emulatable with Wish.


Actually, that spell does seem to restore spent spell slots. I had to paraphrase it to avoid violating copyright/forum rules, so it's not as accurate as can be.

It removes the need to sleep entirely. Spellcasters are explicitly allowed to prep spells and spell slots "normally" even without sleeping for 8 hours.



If it were just limited to swapping spells in prepped slots, the clause regarding "spells cast in the last 8 hours counts against etc etc" wouldn't have been required I think.

Search for "Untiring Form" on this page:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=418.5

The description there is more accurate. Perhaps someone else with a better grasp of RAW than me might be able to advise.

[Ignominia]

UPDATE:

So, after everyone's fine suggestions, I went in to the evening with 3 plans in place which I presented to the group. 1)Free rest via deus ex machina, 2) Weaker Xulo, or 3)go in as is and see how you fair.

To my parties credit, they took the high road and went in against Xulo as is!
They lost the Druids animal companion, but otherwise came out pretty unscathed!

[Segev]

*ahem* To say that "we wish to sleep here safely" is different from "I wish for Leomand's Tiny Hut," and thus open to be screwed over, is to say that you believe you have a bad DM.

The DM absolutely should look at the wish being made and see if there exist spell effects which could result in the wish being granted. Wish is not "cast any spell," nor is it supposed to be "wish for spells by name or be screwed." The guidelines of spells it can duplicate are meant quite clearly as guidelines of what Wish can achieve, not as limiters that must be named precisely.

"I wish to be able to sleep here safely" should result in - among other possibilities - a Leomund's Tiny Hut (or even a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion!). The DM listens to the wish, realizes there's an effect that Wish explicitly can safely do which matches the desired effect precisely, and "twists" the Wish into that safe implementation.

Interpreting it otherwise goes right back into the "Evil Genie" style wishing that makes Wish into a "get out the pen, paper, and legal writing textbooks" exercise, and is a hallmark of the DM-wins-if-players-lose style of play. Not, "the DM is challenging the players and playing the world realistically, with NPCs who are out to kill them showing no mercy," but "the DM is out to beat the players, and will make sure his encounters are as unfairly overpowering as he thinks he can get away with without the players calling him on it and leaving before he's 'won.'"

Wish is a 9th level spell not just for its near-"anyspell" capability, but because it allows the player to ask for an effect without having to exhaustively search all possible spell effects for what he wants. If the DM knows of one that will do it, he should use it. He can tweak it to be more in line with the request if he feels like it, but he definitely shouldn't use, "HAHA! You didn't think to name a specific spell, so despite the fact that you wished for the evil king to turn into a statue, it isn't a flesh to stone spell that you get! Instead, he automatically defeats you and has his reign secured for the rest of his natural life, and a statue of him is left on his throne after he dies to show how powerful he is!"

If you think I'm engaging in false dichotomy here, I'm not. I'm being deliberately a little extreme to illustrate the "cleverness" of twisting a wish that could easily be accomplished safely with the naming of a spell. Just because a spell isn't named doesn't mean that the DM shouldn't go first to the spell list to see if a spell could accomplish the Wish. If one could, then the Wished-for effect is safely within the limits of the Wish's power (provided we're talking about a spell Wish could cast, of course).

[Fouredged Sword]

I am of the opinion that wish should take effect ONLY though spell effects that it copies unless the party deliberately tells the dm they want to push the spell past it's safe limits.

You want someone dead, then it becomes a SOD, want to be somewhere, then you get the listed perfect teleport.

If the wish fails because the spells it copies have limits, then it fails.

And even if the party pushes a wish, they should get what they wish for. This should only be used for players throwing the levers of plot with their hands, and they should pay out in plot consequences, but they should get what they pay for.

[Alefiend]

*ahem* To say that "we wish to sleep here safely" is different from "I wish for Leomand's Tiny Hut," and thus open to be screwed over, is to say that you believe you have a bad DM.

{snipped the rest of a good post}



This, including the snipped bits, is what I logged in this morning to say, more or less.

[Thrudd]

UPDATE:

So, after everyone's fine suggestions, I went in to the evening with 3 plans in place which I presented to the group. 1)Free rest via deus ex machina, 2) Weaker Xulo, or 3)go in as is and see how you fair.

To my parties credit, they took the high road and went in against Xulo as is!
They lost the Druids animal companion, but otherwise came out pretty unscathed!

There you go, nothing to be worried about. I never would have given them the choice, I would have let them walk in there without warning them of anything. Doing that breaks verisimilitude too much, I feel. If it was obvious the fight was way too hard once it started, I would have adjusted the power level on the fly. Stuff to think about for next time, I guess.

[navar100]

Simply put, there is a list of things which 'if you use Wish/Limited Wish for this, you're in the clear, no adjudication required'. Once you start asking for qualitative things like 'is this a greater or lesser effect' you run the risk of calling for interpretation.

To put it another way, the DM can't screw you over for asking to duplicate, say, Leomund's Tiny Hut. The DM can screw you over if you ask to 'be able to sleep here safely', even though the effects are the same. Because in the former case, its just the spell effect and thats explicitly on the list, but in the later case the DM can say 'asking to be completely safe goes beyond what any spell can actually do - a god could always interrupt your sleep, the world could end, etc - therefore, it gets twisted'.

The point of sticking to the safe list is that its explicit, just as 'magic missile' produces a certain number of projectiles each doing a certain amount of damage, but a spell that 'deals a grievous wound to an enemy' without defining what that means would be problematic.

In other words . . .

I'm the DM. Suck it, players! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[Ruethgar]

Ok, how many recursions until you have 8 hours rest in 1 round, just to make warlocks suicide.

And would you really allow that, or expect to get away with it without a large suspiciously book like bruise.


Edit: 3 recursions, for 5.16 seconds... and only 3 DC 5 skill checks, you can do that untrained reliably with the right stats....

Lucid Dreaming is trained only, thankfully. I don't know where you are getting that number, but each recursion would simply divide the time. 48 minute base with one dreaming you. After 60 recessions you have capped at 14 rounds of sleep. You can keep going, but eventually it starts to go back up because of the time you spend using the skill.