Min-Max My Rogue

[MinMax Hardcore]

I want two types of build.

One build for Damage and another for Scouting.

I'm not familiar with rogues so I am going to need your
help to OP it. Also the rogue is only lv 4.

[A.A.King]

What sources can you use? Always important when you ask these kind of questions.

Also, is all you want something which can deal tons of damage and scout, or something which can deal tons of damage and something else which can scout. Either way you should tell us a little bit more of what you want. For example why rogue?

[MinMax Hardcore]

What sources can you use? Always important when you ask these kind of questions.

Also, is all you want something which can deal tons of damage and scout, or something which can deal tons of damage and something else which can scout. Either way you should tell us a little bit more of what you want. For example why rogue?

I can use all the 3.5e book sources.

I am currently scouting, but I always want to see what a damage
rogue can do. After seeing both types of builds, I'll decide what I
want to do.

It's either full damage or full scouting. No mixing.

[OldTrees1]

ECL 4 rogue: Scouting
Dark(+1LA, Tome of Magic) Kobold(MM + Races of Dragon web enchancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) Rogue 3
Feats: Darkstalker(Lords of Madness), Quick Reconnoiter(Complete Adventurer)

Hide: 6 ranks + 8 untyped(Dark) + 8 size(small but effectively tiny from Slight Build) + Dex (Hide in Plain Sight and even hide against Blidsight, Blindsense and Temorsense)
Listen: 6 ranks + Wis (Free action once per round)
Move Silently: 6 ranks + 6 untyped(Dark) + Dex
Spot: 6 ranks + Wis (Free action once per round, Darkvision 60 ft and Superior low light vision)

So 28 point buy with -4str, +2 dex -2con: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Hide +26, Listen +8, Move Silently +16, Spot +8

[A.A.King]

If you go scouting, go Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone). Among other things they get: +2 Dexterity, Small Size (Which includes +4 Hide), Dark Vision, Racial Bonusses of +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently, +2 Spot & +2 Listen.

So you end up with
+8 Hide (+9 if you count the Dexterity Bonus)
+4 Move Silently (+5 if you count the Dexterity Bonus)
+2 Spot
+2 Listen

If you go 4 levels you'll get 2 feats, 4 if you are allowed Flaws
You might want Darkstalker (which allows you to hide from special senses) and Alertness (+2 Bonus on Spot and Listen) to qualify for Keen-Eared Scout, which lets you find out all kinds of information from just listening.

Because scouting is basically about getting to and being at places fast (did I mention that Whisper Gnome has a 30 feet movement speed unlike most small creatures) without being found out (Moving Silent and Hiding) and finding out stuff (Spotting and Listening). Also, consider the Scout Class

A Rogue focused on damage basically just focuses on Sneak Attack Damage and then getting a lot of attacks. So that would mean something with a dexterity bonus + Two-Weapon Fighting + Weapon Finesse when you are at Level 4. Once you go to higher levels it gets more complex

[OldTrees1]

Good point about the Whisper Gnome.

Dark(+1LA, Tome of Magic) Whisper Gnome(Races of Stone) Rogue 3
2 Flaws (Unearthed Arcana)
Feats: Alertness, Blind-fight, Darkstalker(Lords of Madness), Quick Reconnoiteror Hear the Unseen(Complete Adventurer) [Keen Eared Scout(Players Handbook II) at 6th HD]
So 28 point buy with -2str, +2 dex, +2con, -2cha : Str 6, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6
Hide: 6 ranks + 8 untyped(Dark), +4 racial(Gnome), +4 size (Small) + 5 Dex = +27
Listen: 6 ranks +2 untyped(Alertness) +2 racial(Gnome), +2 Wis = +15
Move Silently: 6 ranks +6 untyped(Dark) + 5 dex = +17
Spot: 6 ranks +2 untyped(Alertness) +2 racial(Gnome), +2 Wis = +12

Specials:
Hide in Plain Sight
Allowed to hide from Blindsense, Blindsight and Temorsense
Darkvision 60ft
Superior Low Light vision
Able to make a free spot and listen check per turn OR DR 25 to pinpoint creatures within 30ft as a move action.
Speed 30ft

Skill Summary: Hide +27, Listen +12, Move Silently +17, Spot +12

[A.A.King]

Thank you, Good point about the Dark Template

I don't think you really need Skill Focus (Listen). It's either Alertness or Skill Focus (Listen) for Keen-Eared Scout. Also, I never quiet saw the use of Quick Reconnoiter unless you combine it with something like Hear the Unseen to actually have a use of it being a free action (but that might just be me).
So I'd skip Skill Focus (Listen) for something else (probably Blind-Fight for Hear the Unseen) and take Keen-Eared Scout before Quick Reconnoiter. Then Take Hear the Unseen at 6 and Quick Reconnoiter at 9. Being able to spot and fight the invisible guy seems like a good thing to me, even if you don't put out max damage.

[OldTrees1]

Since Feats come before Skills, you need to wait until after 3rd level to take Keen Eared. I was wrong

I found Quick Reconnoiter to be useful since you can scout (take active spot and listen checks) without slowing down the party since you can move at normal speed (or half speed for stealth). It is very good for ensuring you eventually get a 20 on your die roll.

You can get either QR, HtU or Keen Eared at 3rd.

[ddude987]

For a damage build, you won't be getting much by level 4 but you can plan for later levels:

Human Rogue 4/X Swashbuckler
28 Point buy: Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 8
Feats
Human (bonus): Able Learner (Or craven if you don't need the skills)
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Weapon Finesse (Retrain when you take your first level of swashbuckler)
6: Daring Outlaw

Skill points - 10 for rogue levels, 6 for swashbuckler levels. Max tumble! Other skills your choice

Weapon: Dual wielding rapiers

[A.A.King]

Since Feats come before Skills, you need to wait until after 3rd level to take Keen Eared.

I found Quick Reconnoiter to be useful since you can scout (take active spot and listen checks) without slowing down the party since you can move at normal speed (or half speed for stealth). It is very good for ensuring you eventually get a 20 on your die roll.

However you can get either QR or HtU at 3rd.

Actually, Skills come before Feats acording to the order on page 58 of the Player Handbook. And more importantly, Page 87 of the Player Handbook says: A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite.

[OldTrees1]

Rather than take the TWF route, take the natural weapons route.
Kobolds (RotD Web enhancement) start with 3 natural weapons all of which can be finessed and sneak attack.

Kobold Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler X
1 Rapier (In a claw), 1 Claw, 1 Bite & 1 Tail.

Feats:
1st Dragonwrought[Races of the Dragon], Dragon Tail[Races of the Dragon], Multiattack[Monster Manual], Craven[Champions of Ruin]
3rd open
5th Bonus Feat Weapon Finesse
6th Daring Outlaw[Complete Scoundrel]
9th open
12th Rapidstrike[BAB10, Draconomicon]
18th Improved Rapidstrike[BAB15, Draconomicon]

At 18th level:
4 Rapier attacks(0/-5/-10/-15), 5 Claw attacks(-2/-7/-12/-17/-22), 1 Bite(-2) & 1 Tail(-2)

[Andezzar]

Thank you, Good point about the Dark Template
Keep in mind that the Dark Creature template makes you [Extraplanar] on the prime material plane. So you can be sent "home" to the plane of shadow. Better have a return strategy by the time Dismissal comes along (ECL 7)

[Story]

Have you considered dipping a level of Binder and binding Malphas? That will get you +1d6 sneak attack and the ability to summon ravens for scouting at will.

[ddude987]

Rather than take the TWF route, take the natural weapons route.
Kobolds (RotD Web enhancement) start with 3 natural weapons all of which can be finessed and sneak attack.

-build was here-

At 18th level:
4 Rapier attacks(0/-5/-10/-15), 5 Claw attacks(-2/-7/-12/-17/-22), 1 Bite(-2) & 1 Tail(-2)

IIRC natural weapons are light weapons and you can two-weapon fighting with them so those open feat slots could be twf and get 2 more attacks with the offhand claw.

[OldTrees1]

IIRC natural weapons are light weapons and you can two-weapon fighting with them so those open feat slots could be twf and get 2 more attacks with the offhand claw.

I do not think natural weapons can normally get iterative attacks. Hence the rapidstrike feat chain.

[ddude987]

I do not think natural weapons can normally get iterative attacks. Hence the rapidstrike feat chain.

I remember having a dm rule a monk's unarmed strike could be used with two-weapon fighting. I thought natural weapons could be used the same way, but maybe he wasen't basing that ruling on ...well... on rules.

[aeauseth]

I suggest reviewing The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

You should also consider a Scout (http://dndtools.eu/classes/scout/) (Rogue-like), but requires you to move 10ft to get bonus damage. Advantage is you don't have to flank. For damage builds it sorta depends if you have a flanker in your party (ie: melee fighter). For ranged builds I prefer the Scout over a Rogue. Another option would be a Scout/Ranger combo called Swift Hunter (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/swift-hunter--2868/) (strangely it is a feat not a PrC).

Look at Craven (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/craven--484/) (+1 damage per level), Penetrating Strike, Assassin/Avenger PrC, Darkstalker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/darkstalker--512/).

[OldTrees1]

The Rogue handbook is fine for damage rogues but Scouting rogues are better suited with A Guide to Proper Scouting (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034)

[Andezzar]

IIRC natural weapons are light weapons and you can two-weapon fighting with them so those open feat slots could be twf and get 2 more attacks with the offhand claw.Natural weapons are light weapons, but you cannot use Two-weapon Fighting with them. You cannot in conjunction with one manufactured weapon either. If you wield one manufactured weapon the limb holding that weapon does not get an attack (i.e. no claw attack with the claw that holds the rapier) and the rest of your natural attacks become secondary attacks.



At 18th level:
4 Rapier attacks(0/-5/-10/-15), 5 Claw attacks(-2/-7/-12/-17/-22), 1 Bite(-2) & 1 Tail(-2)The natural attacks are wrong. It is doubtful that you can use rapidstrike with a rapier because at that point you do no longer have 2 claws available.

Assuming this is possible you get the following attacks in addition to the rapier attacks:
-2 (one remaining claw), -2 (bite), -2 (tail), -7 (rapidstrike), -7 (1st attack from improved rapidstrike), -12, -12, -12 (subsequent attacks from improved rapidstrike)

Or without a manufactured weapon:
-0 (one claw), -0 (the other claw), -2 (bite), -2 (tail), -5 (rapidstrike), -5 (1st attack from improved rapidstrike), -10, -10, -10 (subsequent attacks from improved rapidstrike)

For your convenience:
If you have a pair of natural weapons, such as two claws, two wings, or two slams, you can make two or more extra attacks with one of those weapons, the first at a —5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional —5, but never more than four extra attacks.

[OldTrees1]

@Andezzar
O.O Improved Rapidstrike works like that? Wow it is even better than I thought.

[Andezzar]

@Andezzar
O.O Improved Rapidstrike works like that? Wow it is even better than I thought.At least that's how I read the "additional -5". You add -5 to the penalty of the first extra attack you get from Improved Rapidstrike.

Most definitely Improve Rapidstrike does not remove the extra attack you get from Rapidstrike.

Another interesting thing about the poorly worded Improved Rapidstrike is that the number of Extra Attacks granted does not depend on your BAB. Once you have the Feat (BAB 15), there is no reason not to use all four (five if you count Rapidstrike) extra attacks.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you're interested in scouting, an alternative to whisper gnome or kobold is the ghostwise halfling. The stealth bonuses are sadly much smaller, but they are a feat away from having Mindsight, which sits nicely alongside Darkstalker as the two feats I consider most essential for scouts. (Both feats are found in Lords of Madness, while ghostwise halflings are found in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, IIRC, and have some additional updates here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070627).)

[OldTrees1]

@Piggy Knowles Good catch. Mindsight is one of the 3 great senses (with Touchsight and Lifesense)

Dark(+1LA, Tome of Magic) Ghostwise Halfling(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting ) Rogue 3
2 Flaws (Unearthed Arcana)
Feats: Mindsight(20ft, Lords of Madness), Blind-fight, Darkstalker(Lords of Madness), Alertness
So 28 point buy with -2str, +2 dex, : Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
Hide: 6 ranks + 8 untyped(Dark), +4 size (Small) + 4 Dex = +22
Listen: 6 ranks +2 untyped(Alertness) +2 racial(Halfling), +2 Wis = +12
Move Silently: 6 ranks +6 untyped(Dark) + 2 racial(Halfling) +4 dex = +18
Spot: 6 ranks +2 untyped(Alertness) +2 Wis = +10

Hide in Plain Sight, Allowed to hide from Blindsense, Blindsight and Temorsense
Mindsight 20ft, Darkvision 60ft, Superior Lowlight vision

[MinMax Hardcore]

I'm currently a lv 4 human rogue, but I know what I am making for my next rogue.

Dark Dragonwrought Kobold Rogue name Wing Wing.

Time to make the Scouting God.

[Gwendol]

I like the Daring Outlaw TWF rogue for damage.

Dark Human rogue 3/swashbuckler 1 (ECL buy-back at level 3)
DEX 16, INT 14, CON 14

Feats: Able learner (human bonus), TWF (level 1), Craven (level 3), weapon finesse (swashbuckler bonus)

ACF: Penetrating strike (Dungeonscape) replaces trap sense. Half SA damage against those normally immune when flanking

Trait: Quick (+10' movement) for -1 HP/level

This rogue moves at 50' which is plenty for tumbling behind the enemy with ease and strike doing +2d6+4 SA damage with every weapon hit.

Thanks to the dark template and able learner he's a more than decent scout, while still being able to deal out the pain when set up properly.