Valorous enchantment and crits

[Neverborn]

I was playing around with my backup-char, a Water Orc Barbarian/Fighter/Disciple of Dispater, and i wanted to give him the Valorous enchantment for his Minotaur Greathammer...

I was wondering how the Valorous enchantment (attacks do double damage on a charge) works when i score a crit (the MGM has a crit modifier of x4)

Let's say my damage is 1d12+22 and i roll an 8. That's a total of 30 damage, which becomes 60 because of the Valorous enchantment.
Now let's make it a crit... Is that 60 damage then multiplied by 4 making it 240?

Or does it work differently? What confuses me is the rule that a doubled double becomes a tripple, so a doubled quadrupple becomes a ...?

[Raendyn]

I think you are reading it quite wrong.

It doesnt say "attacks deal double dmg"!
Is says "Weapon deals double dmg"
So, when charging you would do 2d12 +whatever.

Now about crits,NO the doubled weapon damage is not quadrupled on a confirmed crit, because both effects are damage multypliers AFAIK.

Edit: Personal note, this property(Valorous) is already too good for a +1 IMO :smalltongue:

[Neverborn]

Hmm, i just found this:

A valorous weapon allows its wielder to make powerful charge attacks. When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat. More than one doubling of damage increases the damage multiple by one per additional doubling, so double-double damage is triple damage, triple-double damage is quadruple damage, and so on.

Would you claim that Spirited Charge only doubles the weapon's base damage dice as well? Because i have never seen it used that way (or Valorous for that matter)...
This text would seem to indicate that a doubled quadruple becomes a quintuple so the total damage would then be 30*5=150...

Are you sure you are not (subconsciously) trying to nerf the Valorous property because you feel it's overpowered?

[Raendyn]

Are you sure you are not (subconsciously) trying to nerf the Valorous property because you feel it's overpowered?

Well, to begin with, yes I am sure.

Secondly, thats what I said, I said that its not quadrupled, it is just added again, sry I forgot to mention it, I rly have multiplying rules, as a status quo in my head.

Thirdly, you shouldn't copy paste book text, it has to do with copyrights, Better quote from an online source, or better, insert a link to it.

[jindra34]

The line about more than one doubling? Yeah thats standard language, so a Valourous weapon only deals +1 times additional damage on a crit (so in the case of a x4 weapon it'd end up doing x5)

[Fax Celestis]

Multipliers are additive. Your x4 weapon would turn into a x5. Think of each "double" as "+100%". 100%, +300% (x4 weapon), +100% (Valorous) = 500% = x5

[Neverborn]

@Raendyn: You are sure you are, or you are sure you are not? :p
The quote WAS from an online source...
I misunderstoond you about the multipliers then...
But i have to disagree about it only doubling the weapon's base damage...
You have not answered my question about Spirited Charge...

@ everyone else: That's what i figured about the multiplier... Where does everyone stand on what exactly is multiplied, everything, or just the base weapon damage?
Since you seem to feel the total modifier is multiplied, i guess that means the total damage?

[Garagos]

If it were me, I'd mulitply everything to keep it more manageable. On non-crits it wouldn't be a big deal but rolling 2d12 and having to declare which is the crit dice and which is the valor dice is just too much hassle in my eyes. And I agree about Spirited Charge, I've always mulitplied everything not just the base lance damage or whatever.

[jindra34]

Everything gets multiplied. I seem to recall in the PHB section on crits them mentioning that just the xdy thing getting multiplied would render the multiplication meaningless quickly.

[JungleChicken]

I think you are reading it quite wrong.

It doesnt say "attacks deal double dmg"!
Is says "Weapon deals double dmg"
So, when charging you would do 2d12 +whatever.

Now about crits,NO the doubled weapon damage is not quadrupled on a confirmed crit, because both effects are damage multypliers AFAIK.

Edit: Personal note, this property(Valorous) is already too good for a +1 IMO :smalltongue:


The 2D12+modifier is correct not the (1D12+modifier) x2

[Andezzar]

If the multiplying only the dice is a valid interpretation, you do not have multiple multiples, because you are not multiplying one thing more than once. So the damage on a crit would be (2*damage dice+damage modifier(STR,enhancementbonus etc))* crit multiplier. This would use normal math: 2*crit multiplier*damage dice + crit multiplier*damage modifier

If everything is multiplied you get (damage dice+damage modifier)*(crit multiplier+1)=(crit multiplier+1)*damage dice + (crit multiplier+1)*damage modifier

[Raendyn]

Well, yes I am sure I didnt nerf it on purpose.

When I talked about copyrights, I had in mind the forums problems you/we might cause, and wasn't just correcting you on purpose.
Just so you know the proper refering is like:


<insert text>

About the multipliers, I said I misstyped it, so np bro:smalltongue:.

About spirited charge, under strict RAW the feat talks about dmg the weapon yielder does, while the weapon enchantment talks about dmg the weapon does.

So I think what I said stands true, but tbh When the character isnt a:

<Optimized race>+<optimized feat selection>+<optimized classes/PrC'es>...

then you can let him add his str to the multiplication.

Also I admit I never played with a party or DM'ed someone with spirited charge. So I can't put a personal opinion based on experience, but the feat is already SOSO restrictive that when/if you can use it I can give it to you.

If I ever play with it on the party I will do the proper modifications.

That was my little peny in the matter, hope I've helped.

last second edit:

If the multiplying only the dice is a valid interpretation, you do not have multiple multiples, because you are not multiplying one thing more than once. So the damage on a crit would be (2*damage dice+damage modifier(STR,enhancementbonus etc))* crit multiplier. This would use normal math: 2*crit multiplier*damage dice + crit multiplier*damage modifier

If everything is multiplied you get (damage dice+damage modifier)*(crit multiplier+1)=(crit multiplier+1)*damage dice + (crit multiplier+1)*damage modifier

While your logic is correct and RAW. I would put this kind of combined multipliers under the microscope, and maybe hold a short leash. But as far as this goes I give it to you, dude, gj.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm away from my books right now, but as this question comes up a lot, I know it more or less by heart.

Rules Compendium DOES address multiplying, base weapon damage, et al., and the basic rules are...


When base weapon dice are doubled, roll separately each time. In other words, if you score a critical with a scythe, you don't roll 2d4 and then multiply the result by four. You roll 8d4. Tedious, but them's the breaks.
Static (ie, damage NOT expressed in dice) bonuses to damage ARE multiplied. So, in this particular scenario, if your base damage is 1d12+22, that +22 would be multiplied each time.
Bonus damage expressed in dice, such as sneak attack or the flaming property of a weapon, is NOT multiplied. So if I have +4d6 sneak attack, a flaming weapon, and a cast Blade of Blood, I end up with +8d6 damage... but that damage does not get multiplied on a crit or via Valorous. However, if I had the Craven feat, the bonus damage from Craven WOULD be multiplied, because it is damage not expressed in dice.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, when you have more than one damage multiplier, you don't multiply them. You add (multipler -1). As Fax Celestis mentioned, it's best to think of each x2 as being +100%, x3 as being +200%, etc.


So, in your instance...

You have 1d12+22 as your damage. You are charging, and you score a critical, with a x4 multiplier on the crit.

All in all, that means that your hit will deal quintuple damage - x4 + x2 = x5 in the weirdness that is D&D math. (Again, don't think of it as multiplying. Think of Valorous as giving you +100% damage. So, since you're adding on +100% damage to your attack, that's the equivalent of a x5 multiplier.)

So your final damage would be 5d12+110.

If you, say, had the flaming property on your greathammer as well, that would NOT be multiplied, so you'd have a total of 5d12+110+1d6.

Make sense?

[danzibr]

I always found the double-static-but-not-variable damage thing very stupid. I wonder why they did that.

Anyway, to throw in my two cents, I agree with Piggy Knowles.

[Fax Celestis]

I always found the double-static-but-not-variable damage thing very stupid. I wonder why they did that.

With a x3 crit, each d6 turns from expected 3 into expected 10 damage. A d8 turns from expected 4 into expected 13.

This doesn't seem like a lot until you look at, say, a crit from an 11th level rogue. 6d6 sneak attack, tack on icy flaming shocking onto a longspear (x3 crit, no extra proficiencies needed). So 9d6 damage. Let's make the rogue Small so we can call it an even 10d6.

Crit as it stands: 13d6.
Damage range: 13-78
Expected damage: 45

Crit where bonus dice also crit: 30d6.
Damage range: 30-180
Expected damage: 105

Basically, it turns crits into rocket tag.

[Chronos]

But strength-types can get non-dice damage bonuses that are about as large as a rogue's sneak attack. It's not too hard to get +30 or so to damage, which is roughly equivalent to 9d6. So it's still rocket tag, just not rocket tag for everyone.

[Fax Celestis]

But strength-types can get non-dice damage bonuses that are about as large as a rogue's sneak attack. It's not too hard to get +30 or so to damage, which is roughly equivalent to 9d6. So it's still rocket tag, just not rocket tag for everyone.

Sure, but when the rule was made, no one had considered the possibility of getting those kinds of damage bonuses: Weapon Specialization was a "good" feat, remember?

I didn't say it was a good reason, just that it was the reason.

[Andezzar]

I always found the double-static-but-not-variable damage thing very stupid. I wonder why they did that.Because it is the same thing as "rolling" everything: if your roll is ydx+B and you multiply it by 2 you get ydx+ydx+B+B, which is always the same as ydx+ydx+2B, whereas ydx+ydx rarely is the same as 2ydx.


Sure, but when the rule was made, no one had considered the possibility of getting those kinds of damage bonuses: Weapon Specialization was a "good" feat, remember?Power Attack is in the PHB. On a two-handed weapon that alone can generate +40 damage.

[Siosilvar]

Power Attack is in the PHB. On a two-handed weapon that alone can generate +20 damage.

+40, actually, but at the cost of -20 to hit, so it's hardly ever going to actually hit anything, let alone confirm a crit; Shock Trooper and other such feats to shift around the penalty aren't in the PHB.

[Andezzar]

Of course +40. True Strike, flanking and means to get a target flat-footed are in the PHB as well. So set up right, you can seriously improve the odds of hitting even with a high Power Attack penalty. Getting lots of damage is not a problem even with only the PHB, unless you rely on Sneak attack.

I just realized that none of the domains granting True Strike are in the PHB. So +40 damage and no penalty (-20+20) is not possible with the PHB alone. But you can get close -19AB+20AB=+1AB and +38 damage.

What other abilities besides shock trooper are there that shift the penalty away from the AB?

[Neverborn]

I'm away from my books right now, but as this question comes up a lot, I know it more or less by heart.

Rules Compendium DOES address multiplying, base weapon damage, et al., and the basic rules are...


When base weapon dice are doubled, roll separately each time. In other words, if you score a critical with a scythe, you don't roll 2d4 and then multiply the result by four. You roll 8d4. Tedious, but them's the breaks.
Static (ie, damage NOT expressed in dice) bonuses to damage ARE multiplied. So, in this particular scenario, if your base damage is 1d12+22, that +22 would be multiplied each time.
Bonus damage expressed in dice, such as sneak attack or the flaming property of a weapon, is NOT multiplied. So if I have +4d6 sneak attack, a flaming weapon, and a cast Blade of Blood, I end up with +8d6 damage... but that damage does not get multiplied on a crit or via Valorous. However, if I had the Craven feat, the bonus damage from Craven WOULD be multiplied, because it is damage not expressed in dice.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, when you have more than one damage multiplier, you don't multiply them. You add (multipler -1). As Fax Celestis mentioned, it's best to think of each x2 as being +100%, x3 as being +200%, etc.


So, in your instance...

You have 1d12+22 as your damage. You are charging, and you score a critical, with a x4 multiplier on the crit.

All in all, that means that your hit will deal quintuple damage - x4 + x2 = x5 in the weirdness that is D&D math. (Again, don't think of it as multiplying. Think of Valorous as giving you +100% damage. So, since you're adding on +100% damage to your attack, that's the equivalent of a x5 multiplier.)

So your final damage would be 5d12+110.

If you, say, had the flaming property on your greathammer as well, that would NOT be multiplied, so you'd have a total of 5d12+110+1d6.

Make sense?

Makes a lot of sense!
The only thing that still confuses me is why the final damage would be 5d12 +110 (5 times the static damage bonus), and not (1d12+22)*5...
Why do you need to roll the d12 5 times? We have always handled crits as: roll damage, add static modifiers, multiply that by the crit multiplier, and then add variable damage...

[Karnith]

Makes a lot of sense!
The only thing that still confuses me is why the final damage would be 5d12 +110 (5 times the static damage bonus), and not (1d12+22)*5...
Why do you need to roll the d12 5 times? We have always handled crits as: roll damage, add static modifiers, multiply that by the crit multiplier, and then add variable damage...
That's just how the rules for critical hits work. Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits)
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
EDIT: Or, if you're looking for the explanation of why WotC went with this rule, look at the next post.

[Amphetryon]

Makes a lot of sense!
The only thing that still confuses me is why the final damage would be 5d12 +110 (5 times the static damage bonus), and not (1d12+22)*5...
Why do you need to roll the d12 5 times? We have always handled crits as: roll damage, add static modifiers, multiply that by the crit multiplier, and then add variable damage...

This is done to smooth out the curve, basically. It makes it so that the average expected Damage on a Critical Hit automatically shifts toward a theoretically predictable mean. It makes it so that rolling a 1 on a Critical Hit doesn't feel quite so anti-climactic ("hooray, I critted for. . . 9 Damage"* isn't very exciting), and also makes it so that, theoretically, rolling a Critical Hit doesn't automatically end the fight if your initial Damage roll was maxed. As has been mentioned in the thread, these considerations were put in place without the designers necessarily having a full understanding of how the math turns combat into rocket tag regardless of Critical Hits.

*Arbitrary Damage number not relevant to your specific example.

[Neverborn]

Hmmm, that makes sense... I guess we've been doing it wrong all this time...
Does make for a bit more work though... Especially with my Monk who rolls loads of d8's... Fortunately he almost never crits... :)

[danzibr]

Hmm, I got more quotes than I expected. To clarify, I think I should be both or neither. As-is it favors über chargers over rogues, for example, which seems unfair to the poor rogue.

[Andezzar]

Then boost the rogue, not nerf the charger.

[Fax Celestis]

Of course +40. True Strike, flanking and means to get a target flat-footed are in the PHB as well. So set up right, you can seriously improve the odds of hitting even with a high Power Attack penalty. Getting lots of damage is not a problem even with only the PHB, unless you rely on Sneak attack.

I just realized that none of the domains granting True Strike are in the PHB. So +40 damage and no penalty (-20+20) is not possible with the PHB alone. But you can get close -19AB+20AB=+1AB and +38 damage.

What other abilities besides shock trooper are there that shift the penalty away from the AB?

When the crit rules were written, nothing.

There's also the bit where you're comparing the swing of a 20th level fighter to that of an 11th level rogue (what I used in my example).

Updating my example accordingly:

10d6 sneak attack + 3d6 elemental enchantments + 1d6 weapon = 15d6

Crits as they stand: 17d6
Expected damage: 59
Damage range: 17-102

Crits where dice are multiplied: 45d6
Expected damage: 157
Damage range: 45-270

I can guarantee that the bolded part is what made the designers freak out and say 'dice don't multiply'.

[danzibr]

Then boost the rogue, not nerf the charger.
Indeed, that is what I would do.

[Chronos]

Even without any Power Attack at all, a barbarian of, say, level 13 or 14 can have a Str of 18 (base) +2 (half-orc) +3 (levels) +6 (belt) +6 (rage), for a total of 35, or a +12 modifier. Swing a two-handed weapon, and that's +18 to damage. Make it a +3 weapon (it could easily be +4, if a cleric with a Bead of Karma casts Greater Magic Weapon), and we're at +21 to damage, the same as the average on 6d6. Yeah, the rogue is actually getting +7d6 sneak attack damage at this level, and probably another d6 from the weapon itself, but then, the barbarian is probably doing 2d6 base damage from the weapon, so it evens out.

And that's without Power Attack. I don't know offhand how much power attack is optimal, but the barbarian has +15 to attack from strength and weapon enhancement; it's probably reasonable to assume that he can afford to sacrifice some of that. Even if he just sacrifices enough to to make up the difference between his BAB and the rogue's, that's still another +8.

Of course, as Fax Celestis pointed out, just because all of these damage boosts were available in the core rules doesn't mean that the designers realized they were all available. In 2nd edition (which is after all what the designers were used to), most of these non-dice damage plusses were much smaller, so the designers had gotten used to the idea that the big damage was found in dice.