[PF/3.5/d20] Dragoon

[nersxe]

So, I'm rather in love with the idea of a dragoon (the jumps-up-real-high-and-lands-on-you kind, not the mounted combat kind) using the d20 rules, but I've hit a few roadblocks.

3.5 has limitations built into the jump skill (such as certain size category creatures having a capped jump height) and d20 modern has some wonky things going on with the jump skill that would essentially mean whatever it is the dragoon is targeting would have plenty of time to run away before getting hit. Funny enough, Naruto d20 would work like a charm to make a dragoon, but the magic-type effects in that world would make all the work useless (for those of you not familiar with n20, there's a technique that's available to all first-level characters that lets you teleport away from one attack per day with a fairly easy skill check).

So, I've hit upon PF. Whether or not there were meant to be heavy limitations a la d20modern or 3.5, there aren't. I've read the acrobatics skill many, many times, and you can jump ridiculous heights if you can make the DC.

My question is this: how do I build a character so as to take full advantage of this? The absolute ideal is a polearm-wielding, heavy-armor wearing character with full BAB and a high move speed (since jump heights in PF are limited by your move speed), but I know I won't get that in a system where the designers never dreamed of the character concept I'm aiming for.

What do you think, playgrounders?

EDIT: Thanks to Karnith, I now have a loose idea of how to make a dragoon in 3.5. Now, I search for a way to do it in PF. (Also, I am less attentive to 3.0->3.5 changes than I thought I was.)

[Greenish]

Well, the easiest way is to play 3.5 (where skills are easy to boost). Get some 3.0 stuff like Ninja Spy or Halberd of Vaulting if you want, get silly high speed, and bam, done.

(There is no cap on how high you can jump in 3.5.)

[Karnith]

(such as certain size category creatures having a capped jump height)Just so you know, that was a feature of 3.0 that was removed in 3.5. There are no caps on jump heights related to size anymore.

I'm not sure how well it would transfer to Pathfinder, but in 3.5 Dragoon-type builds are a well-traveled area. I believe that Little Red Raiding Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) builds based around the Battle Jump feat (in Unapproachable East) are the most common versions.

[Firechanter]

I believe that Little Red Raiding Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) builds based around the Battle Jump feat (in Unapproachable East) are the most common versions.

Yeah, that is probably the most common version, but as an alternative to that, is there also a _legal_ version?
It says Battle Jump is "key to the dragoon's style", but does not pick the only race that is even allowed to take the feat at all, Taer.

[nersxe]

That is a fantastic build, thank you. I'm now set if I want to get into a 3.5 game with a dragoon, so long as the DM is fairly open to sources. I'll update the OP. Also, I did not know the 3.5 update removed the jump cap.

That said, is there a good way to do it in PF?

[Karnith]

Yeah, that is probably the most common version, but as an alternative to that, is there also a _legal_ version?
It says Battle Jump is "key to the dragoon's style", but does not pick the only race that is even allowed to take the feat at all, Taer.
In my experience, and from what I have heard from others, it's either waived entirely because it's just a fluff requirement, or characters work it into their backstory somehow. Per Player's Guide to Faerun:

You should check with your Dungeon Master before you assign your character a region that doesn't fit his subrace. Doing so is not against the rules; indeed, despite the prevalence of certain races in certain areas, Faerun is a diverse land with many well-integrated cities and kingdoms. It would not be unreasonable, for example, for a gold dwarf to have the human region of Cormyr as his native region. However, such an unusual origin probably deserves some explanation in your character's backstory.(Emphasis mine)

[Firechanter]

In my experience and from that I have with others, it's either waived because it's just a fluff requirement, or characters work it into their backstory. Per Player's Guide to Faerun:
(Emphasis mine)

The quoted paragraph is about subraces and ethnicities, not about entirely different species. The text about Taer "region" specifies that it's really about the species of the same name.
Of course, it can still be waived, but depending on getting a rule ignored is, imho, a less than optimal start to a character concept.

--

Anyway, @OP, please let us know if you find anything comparable in PF. Typically all the 3.5 "gold" feats are either scrubbed or nerfed into oblivion in Paizo's brew.

[Greenish]

That said, is there a good way to do it in PF?PF monks tend to be pretty good at jumping. Not that useful for leaping on enemies, though.


Also, Battle Jump requires "Region: Taer" (contrast with other regional feats, many of which spell out the required races), so as long as you're from the cold unforgiving mountains of the Unapproachable East so called, you should be golden.

[Karnith]

The quoted paragraph is about subraces and ethnicities, not about entirely different species. The text about Taer "region" specifies that it's really about the species of the same name.
Of course, it can still be waived, but depending on getting a rule ignored is, imho, a less than optimal start to a character concept.
In a section that I excised because I didn't think it was necessary, they use the example of a Gold Dwarf from Cormyr (a human region, if you aren't familiar with it) as being perfectly acceptable, provided that his backstory is explained. I have edited my previous post to include it. Since gold dwarves are not a human subrace, I don't see why this rule couldn't extend to a human growing up with/alongside a Taer in exile (which is what the Taer region represents), or however you choose to explain it.

That said, is there a good way to do it in PF?
Wheedle your DM until (s)he allows 3.5 content?

[Firechanter]

Also, Battle Jump requires "Region: Taer" (contrast with other regional feats, many of which spell out the required races), so as long as you're from the cold unforgiving mountains of the Unapproachable East so called, you should be golden.

Not quite. Please read again the description of "Taer Region" on UE 41. Just like "Gnoll Region" on the same page describes gnolls.

[nersxe]

PF monks tend to be pretty good at jumping. Not that useful for leaping on enemies, though.

They are, and I gave them consideration. My problem being I can't see them able to do their unarmed damage when falling on someone. The dragoon falling on an enemy and pointing their polearm downward is hard enough, but managing to kick someone in a specific place as you fall is right out.

Karnith, that's not actually an option. I'm considering going into ENWorld's Living Pathfinder, and there is absolutely no non-Paizo content allowed in Living Pathfinder. (And some of the PF content is cut, though none of the cuts have a single thing to do with acrobatics/jumping).

EDIT: If I go for a PF game that's less rigidly controlled, I'll try, but what I'm really looking for is a PF-legal version.

[Karnith]

Well, according to this old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280873), a Dragoon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dragoon) Fighter or Barbarian (with Raging Leaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/raging-leaper-ex)) mixed with Ninja (for Acrobatic Master and High Jumper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks)) would sort of work. It would certainly be on top of the leaping about, though you wouldn't be getting the kind of damage a 3.5-style Hood build would.

But I don't actually know much about Pathfinder myself, so that's about as much help as I can offer.

[nersxe]

Oh, hey, that ninja stuff is pretty sweet. It would require either a feat or a level in another class to get the polearm proficiency, but that's only a small quibble. You don't even have to be in light armor to use any of the ninja's class features up to and including L2. Plus, at 3/4th BAB, I could take up to L4 and only lose one point.

I think as of right now I'm looking at something like:

Fighter1->Ninja2->Monk4.

If s/he survives that long, probably more fighter levels from there. Maybe another two levels of ninja somewhere in there, or a PrC for kicks and giggles.

[IronFist]

Not quite. Please read again the description of "Taer Region" on UE 41. Just like "Gnoll Region" on the same page describes gnolls.

I wouldn't bother. People keep mentioning Battle Jump in all charging builds around here, like every game is set in FR.
Regional feats ended up being bad design, because few people actually care about them because of what they are supposed to do (make your character seem more at home in Faerun) and when people remember them it's usually beause they are ignoring restrictions on who can take it (like Otherwordly and Battle Jump - especially Battle Jump, since Taer have both RHD and LA).

[fishyfishyfishy]

I have a player that actually does this exact concept. He's a Warblade and focuses mostly on Tiger Claw and various feats to get as high a bonus as possible.

[nersxe]

I have a player that actually does this exact concept. He's a Warblade and focuses mostly on Tiger Claw and various feats to get as high a bonus as possible.

How's that working out for him? And what level is he?

[lytokk]

I actually put a lot of thought into this a few years ago, lost my notes. But my thought was to make dragoon a prestige class, with one of the requirements being to secure a wyverns egg, then raise it as your own. I don't know the age categories for wyverns, but in a 10 levl prestige class, by level 7 the wyvern was full grown and rideable. But more of the idea was in sticking to the rules, but using leaping charge attacks with a spear, or jumping down from above them to get double damage. Spears can do this when you ready against a charge or are mounted, at least according to d&d 3.5, which is where all my experience lies.
As the class progressed, there'd be reduced armor check penalties to skills like jump and climb. Also depending on the height of the jump there could be an area of effect attack. I swear I had notes on this.

[nersxe]

That would be nice. Most DMs don't allow homebrew, though. :smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

How's that working out for him? And what level is he?

Any level would work for Warblade. They can jump. They get Sudden Leap first level, and the Tiger Claw Maneuvers help out a lot. Some Barbarian for easy pounce might help later on.

Totemist would be a good dip. Krenshar Mask/Landshark Boots give 4+2/essentia competence bonus, and Manticore Belt/Pegasus Cloak gives 2+2/essentia enhancement bonus to jump. These can be covered by items, but it could be a nice boost if you can't get the items you want.

If you are using Incarnum, Thri Kreen are the best race. 2 HD, 1 LA for +30 jump.

[nersxe]

Any level would work for Warblade. They can jump. They get Sudden Leap first level, and the Tiger Claw Maneuvers help out a lot. Some Barbarian for easy pounce might help later on.

Totemist would be a good dip. Krenshar Mask/Landshark Boots give 4+2/essentia competence bonus, and Manticore Belt/Pegasus Cloak gives 2+2/essentia enhancement bonus to jump. These can be covered by items, but it could be a nice boost if you can't get the items you want.

If you are using Incarnum, Thri Kreen are the best race. 2 HD, 1 LA for +30 jump.

Thanks, but I was more curious to see how the dragoon build worked at whatever level he is. And how he likes it.

[Qc Storm]

I'll be plugging it every time I see a Dragoon thread happen, but I made an attempt at homebrew for it, among other people. You can see it in my signature.

I understand that most DMs do not allow homebrew though. Even mine don't.:smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

Also, Battle Jump requires "Region: Taer" (contrast with other regional feats, many of which spell out the required races), so as long as you're from the cold unforgiving mountains of the Unapproachable East so called, you should be golden.

I thought two ranks in Knowledge: Local (region) qualified you for any regional feat without having to be from there?

[Snowbluff]

I thought two ranks in Knowledge: Local (region) qualified you for any regional feat without having to be from there?

IIRC, the new regional rules don't allow that. :smallfrown:

I let my players do that, though.

[IronFist]

I thought two ranks in Knowledge: Local (region) qualified you for any regional feat without having to be from there?

That was only in 3.0.

[Psyren]

Do the 3.5 rules specifically say this method is disallowed though?

[Snowbluff]

Do the 3.5 rules specifically say this method is disallowed though?

No, but since the text is absent from the updated text, I am pretty sure it's not legal. Which is silly, because I heard we lost a few regions in the switch.

[Karnith]

Do the 3.5 rules specifically say this method is disallowed though?
It's never specifically mentioned, to the best of my knowledge. However, the 3.5 rules change made it impossible to do so, even if you don't consider the 3.0 rules on regional feats overridden by the 3.5 revision.

In 3.0, you could put 2 ranks into the appropriate Knowledge (Local) skill to be able to select regional feats from the appropriate region, but only after first level (see e.g. FRCS, p. 28). Since you can no longer select regional feats after first level per the 3.5 update, there is no way to benefit from this use of Knowledge (Local) anymore.

[IronFist]

Do the 3.5 rules specifically say this method is disallowed though?

They do.


The region system in this book limits each character to one and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level. This rule replaces the one on page 28 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting that allows a character to learn another regional feat for each 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) she has.
Emphasis mine.

[Psyren]

And that settles that. Shame really.

And they did a great job breaking Runescarred Berserker too. So much for melee getting nice things :smalltongue:

[IronFist]

And that settles that. Shame really.

And they did a great job breaking Runescarred Berserker too. So much for melee getting nice things :smalltongue:

Battle Jump was never supposed to be a melee thing, though. It's very much a taer thing.

[Fax Celestis]

I wouldn't bother. People keep mentioning Battle Jump in all charging builds around here, like every game is set in FR.
Regional feats ended up being bad design, because few people actually care about them because of what they are supposed to do (make your character seem more at home in Faerun) and when people remember them it's usually beause they are ignoring restrictions on who can take it (like Otherwordly and Battle Jump - especially Battle Jump, since Taer have both RHD and LA).

Or you can put two ranks in Knowledge (Local: Taer) and qualify. That rule was not updated or changed in PGtF from FRCS, so its still valid.

[Psyren]

Or you can put two ranks in Knowledge (Local: Taer) and qualify. That rule was not updated or changed in PGtF from FRCS, so its still valid.

Actually it was, see the end of the last page for that discussion.

[Karnith]

Battle Jump was never supposed to be a melee thing, though. It's very much a taer thing.
Which is why, of course, most Taer can't use it. Only those in exile from their clan are able to select and use Battle Jump.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually it was, see the end of the last page for that discussion.

Welp.

/puts new houserule on the list.

[Person_Man]

Pathfinder Skirmisher Archetype Ranger of grants a number of Hunter's Tricks starting at 5th level (replacing Ranger spells) which can be used 1/2 his ranger level + his Wisdom modifier times per day. The Stag's Leap trick is very useful. As a free action, the ranger can attempt a running jump without moving 10 feet before the jump. Basically a free jump check, which is pretty much the only source of completely free movement in Pathfinder.

Pathfinder Tiger Pounce (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#tiger-pounce) Feat. While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn. There's no reason this movement, like most movements, couldn't be a jump.

Pathfinder Janni Rush (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#_janni-rush) Feat allows you to always considered to have a running start when jumping while in Janni style, and doubles your unarmed damage dice (not Sneak Attack, Power Attack, Strength, or other bonuses) on a Charge. This is fairly useful for a Monk-ish build who can also get Pounce.

[nersxe]

-SNIP-

Thanks. :)

[Psyren]

Pathfinder Tiger Pounce (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#tiger-pounce) Feat. While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn. There's no reason this movement, like most movements, couldn't be a jump.

Ooh, Shocktrooper made it to PF? Granted you need a very long chain to get there but I should really read Ultimate Combat more closely.

[Snowbluff]

Ooh, Shocktrooper made it to PF? Granted you need a very long chain to get there but I should really read Ultimate Combat more closely.

Yeah, it's really confusing. I thought they had intended to remove things like this. *shrug*

It's more feats, like everything else in PF; You get more feats from levels to grab it.

[fishyfishyfishy]

How's that working out for him? And what level is he?

We started at level 3, they're level 7 now. It's working rather well for him. I try to incorporate opportunities for him to use his jump. Enemies that fly or levitate and tall buildings. Things like that. He started with exotic weapon prof. greatspear, although he could have accomplished it with just about any pole arm.

[Person_Man]

Ooh, Shocktrooper made it to PF? Granted you need a very long chain to get there but I should really read Ultimate Combat more closely.

Well, the most commonly used application of Shocktrooper. Remember that Shock Trooper also let you make directed Bull Rushes (pushing enemies one square to the right or left for every square you pushed them backwards) and Trip attempts (if you Bull Rushed them into another enemy). It's the basis for several popular builds.

And oddly, the Tiger Claw feat chain is clearly geared toward Monks, and the Tiger Claw Feat (a pre-req for Tiger Pounce/Shock Trooper) makes absolutely no sense: "While you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free, you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands. Use your highest base attack bonus, rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit. If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls. If you hit, you can attempt a bull rush maneuver with a +2 bonus on the combat maneuver check. This bull rush attempt provokes no attack of opportunity from your opponent, but you cannot move with that opponent if your bull rush is successful."

So a full round action for 1 attack with double unarmed strike damage plus 1/2 your Str bonus and a +2 Bull Rush that pushes your enemy away? That's terrible.

[Fax Celestis]

So a full round action for 1 attack with double unarmed strike damage plus 1/2 your Str bonus and a +2 Bull Rush that pushes your enemy away? That's terrible.

Unless the +0.5*STR is in addition to your normal unarmed strike damage, so 2[W]+2.5*STR+PA, for one attack roll (and potentially, one crit for the whole thing). I could see it being cool, esp. if you get some sort of true strike thing going on first.

[Firechanter]

At first I was like "Shock Trooper in PF? Nowai".
And then I was like "Oh, you need one, two, _three_ crappy feats as prereq for it. Now I believe it."
And finally I realized this stunt actually only works with Unarmed Strikes at all.
Thanks, I'll pass.