CowardlyPaladin
2013-09-11, 08:52 PM
I'm always though non magical combat in D&D is extremely boring, being a fighter isn't just underpowered, its also kinda boring. I think the main reason for this is two fold, A) Lack of variety, there really isn't much you can do in conventional combat, you hit, they hit, you hit, and then you hit back, and occasionally you get a critical hit or an attack doesn't overcome armor class. Meanwhile the Wizard is going "see all of the things I can do, look a single spell has multiple applications, what a novel idea. Look I took a non combat spell idea and used it in combat or visa versa, isn't context fun?". Considering their is such a wide variety of ways somebody can brutally hurt somebody, its a shame that its "Hit them with the metal stick." This came up during our low magic game, when after a few fights we realized "wait a second, without magic, this is just dull." I want my low magic gritty game to be you know..gritty where both knights have to drop their swords and roll around in the mud, one man trying th get his knife through the other's armor before he is drowned in the mud. 2) Lack of suspense. The thing about casters in theory is that they have to constantly be using their spells with an eye on how much they can cast, sure I can use the instant kill attack but then I might have less spells for later, so I should be nervous about fighting too much because I will eventually run out of spells and then i'm helpless. Ok, it doesn't work, but that should be the idea, the suspense of slowly being wittled down in a fight. With martial classes, when a fighter is just as powerful at full hit points as he is at 1 hit points, it makes the combat boring. Also, when fighting against an enemy wizard and I reduce her to 1 hit points, then I might as well not bothered, she is literally just as powerful now as she was before the hit.
FInally, their is one final thing to bear in mind, its whoely unrealistic. Now I am not advocating for a game where a character gets hit then dies two weeks later from an infection, and half your party gets small pox and dies before you get to the dungeon, but its ok because it collapsed due to structural damage. However, I do want to a game where what logically makes sense for combat has some reflection on the game, where my internial understanding of how the world actually works actually translates into game. So for example, in the real world if I knew I had to fight a guy in armor and I don't have any, I will try to run around him until he got tired out, which I can't do in D&D. Or I'd try to put the sun to my back, or maybe use a weapon which can unbalance him. And then the player in armor kills me because in real life armor isn't so badly structured as all that. I want their to be an internal logic. To that end, here are some ideas of combat improvements i've implemented in my games. Obviously not everybody has to take them, my game has them all but we are pretty cool with lots of dice rolling. This also might help with balance somewhat.
This is divided into two sections, things which I've already implimented in my games, and things which I want to use, but I have no idea how..
Changes
Armor and Shield proficiencies.
If you gave me a sword and told me to take on a master, i'd lose (short of dumb luck), even if I was more physically fit I simply don't know how to use it properly. The Same should apply to armor, sure if you decked me out in Full Plate I would be hard to hit, but because i'm not use to it i'd be easily overbalanced, i'd move slowly due to being unuse to the weight/uncomfortable raw parts, and i'd be hilariously clumsy, while a trained knight could move with extreme grace. Same with a shield, give me a kite shield and i might be harder to hit, but i'd most likely drop it, or flail around a bit, or trip myself, and really just make a fool of myself, leaving it hanging at my side like the orcs in LOTRS. I certiantly couldn't make a shield wall with my buddies. But a roman Legionare, he knows how to use his shield to the best of its abilities. Also seriously, Bucklers need some love.
Combat Challenges
This is totally cribbed from Monte Cook's book "Iron Heroes" so I won't go into the mechanical details due to copy right, but essentially the idea is that you can apply additional benefits to an attack in exchange for lessing you defensive abilities. For example, i could make a normal attack, or I could try to knock the eneimes sword out of his hand, or push him back works, or try to break his shield, or kick him off a ledge, however in doing so I open myself up to damage. These would only options for martial classes and thief classes like Rogues or Duskblades, so a Cleric can be deadly but she wouldn't be able to do stuff like this due to limited combat training. This would help a TINY bit in making Clerics and druids less powerful, because even buffed they can't ever get fancy.
Defense Class
Borrowing again from Monte Cook, the Defense Class. Essentially it was always a bit stupid that wearing armor made you harder to hit opposed to absorbing damage, so here is a nice middle ground. In addition to BAB, their is also BDB (Base Defense Bonus) and Armor class. When an attacker makes their roll, certain classes wit ha high enough Defense class can make a defense roll in response. This is based upon level, so a Level 3 Fighter with a Defense Class of 2 doesn't get to make a roll when fighting a level 15 sword sage with a BAB of 8, she simply in fluff terms, isn't fast enough to block this guys attack. A defense roll does not deflect damage, it basically means that you can mitigate it, because in seense you are parrying or blocking an attack. So if an ogre is attacking me with his giant axe, but i suceed my defense roll, instead of taking full damage, his axe is deflected somewhat by my sword and i just have a brutally maimed arm instead. Armor class by contrast, is a way of negating the damage all together. Items provide an armor class bonus, same as seen in D&D normally, but their are two major differences
Weapon Penetration
Certain weapons are specifically designed the mitigate armor or shields, and thus have weapon penetration. This means they can ignore the effects of armor. For example, a mace has weapon penetration against chain mail, which provides no protection. Or certain arrows can get through plate armor. Weapons with Penetration effect normally aren't very useful as general weapons, but are extremely powerful against certain armor
Doge Bonus
Certain Classes that don't posses armor can instead use their defense bonus to completely evade an attack, like a Rogue who is extremely hard to hit.
Wounds
Attacks now have a chance to inflict wounds, these are minor status effects that linger after the combat itself is over, until special magical healing, or longer periods of rest can occur. I got the idea from Injuries from Dragon Age. For non martial classes, they either can't inflict injuries at all (Like a wizard) or if they do inflict one on a critical hit, have no ability choose which injury they inflict. however, Rogues/Fighters/martial adapts etc, have a MUCH higher chance of of inflicting injuries in the first place, can choose which injuries they will inflict, and for Fighters, can even inflict multiple injuries in a single attack. Martial Classes which do not use magic like Fighters or martial adapts can also increase the damage of a wound, for example crushed arm means you deal 1/4 of your original damageA few sample injuries include
Damaged Eye: Basically a black eye, this makes the victim have a -2 to all attacks until they get this treated
Crushed Arm: The victim's arm has been majorly bruised or the bone hurt, they cannot inflict critical hits
Cracked Skull: If the victim tries to cast a spell, their disorientation makes it so that their is an X % chance of failing, requiring an additional caster check. Percentage is determined by the level/weapon/class of the attacker
Open Wound: While not bleeding, you are in serious pain, and so take an X minus to your Defense Class
Head Trauma: You brain hurts, and so you take a penalty to Will Saves
Gaping Wound: Until this wound is properly healed (see healing below) you cannot be restored to maximum hit points.
Coughing Blood: Interial injuries makes you take a penalty to fortitude saves
damaged bone: you take a penalty to Attack rolls
None of these wounds are debilitating, but they are annoyances which until treated properly, can make it very hard to use your character
Helmets
I liked it when helmets had special effects like reducing critical hits, wounds etc
Wound Points
Being stabbed sucks, and after awhile, even if you are able to live through it, people collapse. Wound points or ranks measure not how alive your are, but how long your body can last before you can't move around. You have as many wound points as double your Con +level, with certain martial classes having even higher. After being injured, you can keep fighting normally for as many rounds as you have wound points, then you must start making Constitution saves or your character simply is too weak to do anything other than move and defend herself, and depending on how much you failed your con save, you might simply collapse, still concious, but unable to move. Casters become too weak to cast without wound points (except for instantious magic or spells that involve no physical motions like Psionics). Every time you take an attack that deals hit point damage, you loose a wound point. Martial classes can stop themselves from losing wound points each round, though they still lose them ever time they suffer damage. Certain healing spells can restore wound points
Vigor
Fighters, Barbarians, Samurai and other martial classes (not martial adepts or caster fighters) get a small points of Vigor points, which they can give up in exchange for avoiding negative effects. For example, should a fighter suffer damage, he can give up 5 Vigor points to negate around 25 hit points. Or he can give up a vigor point to avoid an injury, or to make it so he doesn't lose a wound point.
Called Shots
Basically you take penalties to an attack with the possible pay off doing permanent damage. While INjuries are minor annoyances, the result of a called shot could be something like losing an arm or an eye
Negative Hit points
Martial Classes, unlike Casters, when reduced to negative hit points, have 10+ constitution bonus or + level, which ever is higher, due to increased toughness. When every you are reduced to Negative hit points, their is a chance of getting an injury (See above)
Scars
Magical healing for the most leave nasty scars, which a more powerful healer can ignore, or special spells which focus on cosmic improvements
Good ideas
Fatigue
A major part of combat, particularly in the ancient world, has been exhaustion. Contrary to popular belief, a Knight in Full plate would not be a clumsy man who you could just tip over and they lie on the ground like a turtle, people have been known to do cartwheels in armor, its extremely light comparatively. What is the downside abotu Plate, apart from not being able to swim, is the fact that you get tired out really easily, sure the knight can do cart wheels but after a whole day of fighting in that stuff, the guy will be barely able to stand. Armor is hot, not ventulated, and distributed in such a way that walking around in it will tire you out. I spent a 3 hour period for class wearing Roman Chainmail and while I was active at first, I was utterly worn out by the end, and when I was told to sprint I almost collasped. Now obviously i'm not trained, and somebody who wears armor regularly could last much longer than me, but still. Problem is, the only way I know of how to do a fatigue system would work in a video game, a bar which goes down when you exert yourself, goes up a little bit when you rest and alot when you sleep and eat, but thats alot of book keeping. Does anybody have any ideas? Maybe translate wound ranks into fatigue
Shields
In real life, the Shield was the the rifle of the ancient world, it was your essentialy weapon and while it wouldn't make you into a walking tank, a man with a shield is really hard to hurt. A large piece of wood covering about a third of your body means that its pretty hard to hurt, at Mock combat fairs i've been too, people with shields are absurdly over powered, because I can't hit them. Sure you have one hand occupied, can't swim, and get tired more quickly (see above for fatigue) but the fact is at shield makes hitting a guy hard. You weapon bounces off, they can deflect/catch arrows, my weapon might get stuck leaving me open to be stabbed, or he can bash me in the face or knock me in the leg/stomach, leaving me open to more stabbing. Thus the way to hurt a shield guy is to tire him out, flank him, over powerhim, or go for hte legs, which often will be lightly armored. I have no idea how to translate this in game, because I find the idea of the heros taking out special weapons or using specific tatics against shield users, but I don't know how to implement them.
Changing Armor Class
So you have your passive armor class, which means that an attack must roll a certain number to hit you. two changes I made are 1) Actual armor, opposed to special effects or magic items, also provide damage reduction in addition to negating certain effects, so my full plate means that most attacks don't hurt me, and those that do will do less because of my armor 2) Certain martial classes, ONLY the ones who have alot of proficiency in armor like fighters or Paladins, can make a roll to negate an enemy attack even if it would hit. This is only available to people with the highest level of proficiency, but essentially this is like a shield knocking aside an attack upon.
Pain
One of the little details ignored in D&D is the fact that pain tends to hurt. Even if something isn't very damaging, like being punched in the stomach, it really hurts. And if your fighting for a long time, pain will slowly make it harder and harder to function. I wish their was a way to implement pain, making it so taht even a minor attack against certain classes would make it far more difficult for them to function, again making the Fighter stand out because they (along with the Barbarian) have the highest pain tolerance. This would also make certain enemies more powerful as they are immune to pain, like undead who can only be hurt by holy items or silver, or Golems who are totally immune to all pain.
Other Changes this would mean
A wider variety of healing spells
Healing is also kinda boring in D&D proper, but with a more complicated system, healing because a more involved and interesting system in its own right. The way it works is that it is divided up into different types of healing spells.
Spells that restore Hit points
Spells that restore Wound Points
Spells that Get ride of Injuries
Spells that restore Fatigue
Combinations thereof
FInally, their is one final thing to bear in mind, its whoely unrealistic. Now I am not advocating for a game where a character gets hit then dies two weeks later from an infection, and half your party gets small pox and dies before you get to the dungeon, but its ok because it collapsed due to structural damage. However, I do want to a game where what logically makes sense for combat has some reflection on the game, where my internial understanding of how the world actually works actually translates into game. So for example, in the real world if I knew I had to fight a guy in armor and I don't have any, I will try to run around him until he got tired out, which I can't do in D&D. Or I'd try to put the sun to my back, or maybe use a weapon which can unbalance him. And then the player in armor kills me because in real life armor isn't so badly structured as all that. I want their to be an internal logic. To that end, here are some ideas of combat improvements i've implemented in my games. Obviously not everybody has to take them, my game has them all but we are pretty cool with lots of dice rolling. This also might help with balance somewhat.
This is divided into two sections, things which I've already implimented in my games, and things which I want to use, but I have no idea how..
Changes
Armor and Shield proficiencies.
If you gave me a sword and told me to take on a master, i'd lose (short of dumb luck), even if I was more physically fit I simply don't know how to use it properly. The Same should apply to armor, sure if you decked me out in Full Plate I would be hard to hit, but because i'm not use to it i'd be easily overbalanced, i'd move slowly due to being unuse to the weight/uncomfortable raw parts, and i'd be hilariously clumsy, while a trained knight could move with extreme grace. Same with a shield, give me a kite shield and i might be harder to hit, but i'd most likely drop it, or flail around a bit, or trip myself, and really just make a fool of myself, leaving it hanging at my side like the orcs in LOTRS. I certiantly couldn't make a shield wall with my buddies. But a roman Legionare, he knows how to use his shield to the best of its abilities. Also seriously, Bucklers need some love.
Combat Challenges
This is totally cribbed from Monte Cook's book "Iron Heroes" so I won't go into the mechanical details due to copy right, but essentially the idea is that you can apply additional benefits to an attack in exchange for lessing you defensive abilities. For example, i could make a normal attack, or I could try to knock the eneimes sword out of his hand, or push him back works, or try to break his shield, or kick him off a ledge, however in doing so I open myself up to damage. These would only options for martial classes and thief classes like Rogues or Duskblades, so a Cleric can be deadly but she wouldn't be able to do stuff like this due to limited combat training. This would help a TINY bit in making Clerics and druids less powerful, because even buffed they can't ever get fancy.
Defense Class
Borrowing again from Monte Cook, the Defense Class. Essentially it was always a bit stupid that wearing armor made you harder to hit opposed to absorbing damage, so here is a nice middle ground. In addition to BAB, their is also BDB (Base Defense Bonus) and Armor class. When an attacker makes their roll, certain classes wit ha high enough Defense class can make a defense roll in response. This is based upon level, so a Level 3 Fighter with a Defense Class of 2 doesn't get to make a roll when fighting a level 15 sword sage with a BAB of 8, she simply in fluff terms, isn't fast enough to block this guys attack. A defense roll does not deflect damage, it basically means that you can mitigate it, because in seense you are parrying or blocking an attack. So if an ogre is attacking me with his giant axe, but i suceed my defense roll, instead of taking full damage, his axe is deflected somewhat by my sword and i just have a brutally maimed arm instead. Armor class by contrast, is a way of negating the damage all together. Items provide an armor class bonus, same as seen in D&D normally, but their are two major differences
Weapon Penetration
Certain weapons are specifically designed the mitigate armor or shields, and thus have weapon penetration. This means they can ignore the effects of armor. For example, a mace has weapon penetration against chain mail, which provides no protection. Or certain arrows can get through plate armor. Weapons with Penetration effect normally aren't very useful as general weapons, but are extremely powerful against certain armor
Doge Bonus
Certain Classes that don't posses armor can instead use their defense bonus to completely evade an attack, like a Rogue who is extremely hard to hit.
Wounds
Attacks now have a chance to inflict wounds, these are minor status effects that linger after the combat itself is over, until special magical healing, or longer periods of rest can occur. I got the idea from Injuries from Dragon Age. For non martial classes, they either can't inflict injuries at all (Like a wizard) or if they do inflict one on a critical hit, have no ability choose which injury they inflict. however, Rogues/Fighters/martial adapts etc, have a MUCH higher chance of of inflicting injuries in the first place, can choose which injuries they will inflict, and for Fighters, can even inflict multiple injuries in a single attack. Martial Classes which do not use magic like Fighters or martial adapts can also increase the damage of a wound, for example crushed arm means you deal 1/4 of your original damageA few sample injuries include
Damaged Eye: Basically a black eye, this makes the victim have a -2 to all attacks until they get this treated
Crushed Arm: The victim's arm has been majorly bruised or the bone hurt, they cannot inflict critical hits
Cracked Skull: If the victim tries to cast a spell, their disorientation makes it so that their is an X % chance of failing, requiring an additional caster check. Percentage is determined by the level/weapon/class of the attacker
Open Wound: While not bleeding, you are in serious pain, and so take an X minus to your Defense Class
Head Trauma: You brain hurts, and so you take a penalty to Will Saves
Gaping Wound: Until this wound is properly healed (see healing below) you cannot be restored to maximum hit points.
Coughing Blood: Interial injuries makes you take a penalty to fortitude saves
damaged bone: you take a penalty to Attack rolls
None of these wounds are debilitating, but they are annoyances which until treated properly, can make it very hard to use your character
Helmets
I liked it when helmets had special effects like reducing critical hits, wounds etc
Wound Points
Being stabbed sucks, and after awhile, even if you are able to live through it, people collapse. Wound points or ranks measure not how alive your are, but how long your body can last before you can't move around. You have as many wound points as double your Con +level, with certain martial classes having even higher. After being injured, you can keep fighting normally for as many rounds as you have wound points, then you must start making Constitution saves or your character simply is too weak to do anything other than move and defend herself, and depending on how much you failed your con save, you might simply collapse, still concious, but unable to move. Casters become too weak to cast without wound points (except for instantious magic or spells that involve no physical motions like Psionics). Every time you take an attack that deals hit point damage, you loose a wound point. Martial classes can stop themselves from losing wound points each round, though they still lose them ever time they suffer damage. Certain healing spells can restore wound points
Vigor
Fighters, Barbarians, Samurai and other martial classes (not martial adepts or caster fighters) get a small points of Vigor points, which they can give up in exchange for avoiding negative effects. For example, should a fighter suffer damage, he can give up 5 Vigor points to negate around 25 hit points. Or he can give up a vigor point to avoid an injury, or to make it so he doesn't lose a wound point.
Called Shots
Basically you take penalties to an attack with the possible pay off doing permanent damage. While INjuries are minor annoyances, the result of a called shot could be something like losing an arm or an eye
Negative Hit points
Martial Classes, unlike Casters, when reduced to negative hit points, have 10+ constitution bonus or + level, which ever is higher, due to increased toughness. When every you are reduced to Negative hit points, their is a chance of getting an injury (See above)
Scars
Magical healing for the most leave nasty scars, which a more powerful healer can ignore, or special spells which focus on cosmic improvements
Good ideas
Fatigue
A major part of combat, particularly in the ancient world, has been exhaustion. Contrary to popular belief, a Knight in Full plate would not be a clumsy man who you could just tip over and they lie on the ground like a turtle, people have been known to do cartwheels in armor, its extremely light comparatively. What is the downside abotu Plate, apart from not being able to swim, is the fact that you get tired out really easily, sure the knight can do cart wheels but after a whole day of fighting in that stuff, the guy will be barely able to stand. Armor is hot, not ventulated, and distributed in such a way that walking around in it will tire you out. I spent a 3 hour period for class wearing Roman Chainmail and while I was active at first, I was utterly worn out by the end, and when I was told to sprint I almost collasped. Now obviously i'm not trained, and somebody who wears armor regularly could last much longer than me, but still. Problem is, the only way I know of how to do a fatigue system would work in a video game, a bar which goes down when you exert yourself, goes up a little bit when you rest and alot when you sleep and eat, but thats alot of book keeping. Does anybody have any ideas? Maybe translate wound ranks into fatigue
Shields
In real life, the Shield was the the rifle of the ancient world, it was your essentialy weapon and while it wouldn't make you into a walking tank, a man with a shield is really hard to hurt. A large piece of wood covering about a third of your body means that its pretty hard to hurt, at Mock combat fairs i've been too, people with shields are absurdly over powered, because I can't hit them. Sure you have one hand occupied, can't swim, and get tired more quickly (see above for fatigue) but the fact is at shield makes hitting a guy hard. You weapon bounces off, they can deflect/catch arrows, my weapon might get stuck leaving me open to be stabbed, or he can bash me in the face or knock me in the leg/stomach, leaving me open to more stabbing. Thus the way to hurt a shield guy is to tire him out, flank him, over powerhim, or go for hte legs, which often will be lightly armored. I have no idea how to translate this in game, because I find the idea of the heros taking out special weapons or using specific tatics against shield users, but I don't know how to implement them.
Changing Armor Class
So you have your passive armor class, which means that an attack must roll a certain number to hit you. two changes I made are 1) Actual armor, opposed to special effects or magic items, also provide damage reduction in addition to negating certain effects, so my full plate means that most attacks don't hurt me, and those that do will do less because of my armor 2) Certain martial classes, ONLY the ones who have alot of proficiency in armor like fighters or Paladins, can make a roll to negate an enemy attack even if it would hit. This is only available to people with the highest level of proficiency, but essentially this is like a shield knocking aside an attack upon.
Pain
One of the little details ignored in D&D is the fact that pain tends to hurt. Even if something isn't very damaging, like being punched in the stomach, it really hurts. And if your fighting for a long time, pain will slowly make it harder and harder to function. I wish their was a way to implement pain, making it so taht even a minor attack against certain classes would make it far more difficult for them to function, again making the Fighter stand out because they (along with the Barbarian) have the highest pain tolerance. This would also make certain enemies more powerful as they are immune to pain, like undead who can only be hurt by holy items or silver, or Golems who are totally immune to all pain.
Other Changes this would mean
A wider variety of healing spells
Healing is also kinda boring in D&D proper, but with a more complicated system, healing because a more involved and interesting system in its own right. The way it works is that it is divided up into different types of healing spells.
Spells that restore Hit points
Spells that restore Wound Points
Spells that Get ride of Injuries
Spells that restore Fatigue
Combinations thereof