[PF] Worldbuilding for the Pathfinder Campaign Setting

[Naomi Li]

I've been poking at the PFCS for a while now and there have been many conclusions I have come to, some more supported by the actual text than others. I wanted to post some of them and talk with others regarding potential flaws in them, further conclusions that could be drawn, and essentially anything else that would give me a better view of the setting.

First of all, there are approximately 10^19 souls entering the afterlives (as a whole) every single day. This estimate could easily be off by several orders of magnitude in either direction, depending on number of galaxies, stars in those galaxies, habitable planets around those stars, and number of creatures born on those planets without their soils being destroyed before they reach an afterlife.

It seems reasonable to expect that ~50% of those souls are entering an evil afterlife (partially because the various kinds that are "generally evil" also tend to be much more fecund than the others). Assuming that 1/3 enter the Abyss and even 10% of those manage to spawn demons (from larvae being kidnapped, not being able to transform for whatever reason, whatever) that's still far more than 10^17 demon spawnings every single day (with a great many of those spawnings resulting in far more than one demon).

Abaddon and Hell are notable problems as well, of course, but in different ways, and thus not covered here.

On the other hand, fewer souls probably enter the good afterlives and a much lower percentage of those that do enter the good afterlives become part of the combat forces.

The conclusion: The forces of good are hopelessly outnumbered, the only reason the fiends haven't won is because they keep stabbing each other in the back and otherwise killing each other off. As such, the LG crusades into the Abyss are utterly moronic wastes of good lives that accomplishes very little that the demons wouldn't have done on their own anyway. They would be much better served throwing their armies exclusively at extraplanar threats that have already invaded another realm. (Hopefully with the assistance of various other good and neutral forces, and quite possibly some evil ones as well)


Secondly, on the nature of the planes: The material plane should be counted as a transitive plane as it fits the definition of it perfectly. As far as I can tell, the only reason it isn't is because everything is written from a material plane perspective.

As a sidenote: It seems really weird how the material plane is often viewed as just itself, instead of as one part of the material/ethereal/shadow plane grouping. They're extremely tightly linked, after all.

Does anyone happen to know if a point on the ethereal plane is coexistant to a point on the material plane AND its shadow plane counterpart? If yes, how easy is it to switch "perspective" as to which is being given attention? If not, how "distant" are they?

Thirdly, why are staves of reincarnation seemingly never made use of? They have a high upfront cost, but well within the reach of a moderately large village, and as long as they have a 7th+ level druid or a 9th+ level witch they can bring one person back to life every single day at a staggeringly low cost. Assuming that gentle repose can be used to handle surges in dead people and that there is an average life expectancy of ~60 years, a single such staff could keep almost 22,000 people alive indefinitely, barring death effects, undead transformations, and other barriers. (A staff of restoration would be an excellent investment as well, of course, and a staff of resurrection or even true resurrection could be invaluable as well, if far more difficult to make) Eventually some Inevitables would get around to trying to kill everyone involved, but they're horrendously overworked and are hardly an insurmountable problem. (Anyone up for some banishments?)

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'll challenge two asserations:


~50% of all souls are going to the hell/abyss/abadon:
Isn't it more likely that the majority of all souls are going to the neutral planes? I've always assumed that most people/creatures in a world are neutral.

That the crusades into the Abyss are a hopeless cause:
Well... yeah... they are, but they're fighting a defensive war, so the crusades into the Abyss aren't attempts to end the evil but to stem the tide as long as they can. Worldwound and such, man.


As for why people don't constantly bring the dead back to life:

Pharasma would be a little upset about all the souls she isn't properly judging.
Maybe people want to die and move onto the planes to receive their eternal reward? You can only bring back the willing.
Dolla dolla dolla bills, yo. Magic is expensive and hard to come by for tiny villages.
The empires/factions with the ability to afford such magic aren't large enough/charitable enough to something like that.

[Naomi Li]

The majority of creatures in existence being neutral is certainly possible, though essentially everything I have read seems to indicate more are evil than anything else. Especially since evil is so ludicrously common despite constantly killing each other far more often than neutral and good seem to. Even just on Golarion there is... almost every single creature that lives underground, many of the citizens of several countries, apparantly the vast majority of the exceedingly fecund kobolds and goblinoids...

Neutral MIGHT be more common than the other alignments for humans, but I don't think it is for creatures as a whole.


As for the second point: Can you offer any evidence that the LG armies ARE fighting the war defensively, overall? I cannot recall any such information. I have found information that the CG and NG armies are doing such, though.


In my mind, Pharasma being upset is largely irrelevant, and might even be a minor boon. (I rather dislike her)
Considering how much the afterlives suck (just being a petitioner removes most of your free will, memories, and abilities, and the spawning of other outsiders arguably happens from you as a person ceasing to exist entirely), I would expect many would be very willing to stick around, especially if they still have people they love that are alive. (Or people they hate that are still alive to torment)
For a tiny village it would be a mostly insurmountable problem, especially with taxation and defense costs. However, considering this would be convering ~22,000 individuals, the ~62k gp creation cost isn't bad. All it requires is people with the right knowledge and a lot of teamwork.

Regarding magic and its expense... I'm thinking that either there is some sort of natural barrier to acquiring magic that the rulebooks don't expound upon, or the supply of magic users is being kept artificially low.

Is there any particular reason people couldn't choose to awaken their sorcerous abilities or forge an oracle's abilities by choice instead of just stumbling into it? It seems like the best method of dramatically increasing the number of spellcasters in the world, especially for halflings.

Speaking of oracles, is there any real reason other than it being forced upon them that their "curses" are considered bad instead of good? Even at first level they can provide better gains than they hinder a person. I suppose there's also the gains tending to be harder to notice than the hindrances.



Some musings on what some game terms mean, in-universe.
Oracle's Curses are internal holy symbols that are formed in part of the person's body, often as part of their brain. This impedes some functions, but generally provides notably better gains.
A secondary curse provides a support holy symbol that alters some of the magical functions of the person, including allowing them to tap into fate more readily.
Negatives levels represent anchors between the soul and body being damaged.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The majority of creatures in existence being neutral is certainly possible, though essentially everything I have read seems to indicate more are evil than anything else. Especially since evil is so ludicrously common despite constantly killing each other far more often than neutral and good seem to. Even just on Golarion there is... almost every single creature that lives underground, many of the citizens of several countries, apparantly the vast majority of the exceedingly fecund kobolds and goblinoids...

Neutral MIGHT be more common than the other alignments for humans, but I don't think it is for creatures as a whole.Fair enough. Except that humans are the most common creatures on the surface, and are among the shortest lived. They live and die the fastest among all other species (other than orcs), and are more common than all of them.

For example, the species underground, the ones that come to mind first are Aboleths (ageless monsters that they are), Drow (elves naturally live forever) and Duergar (Dwarves naturally live forever). Not literally forever, but the new definition of "literally" forever.



As for the second point: Can you offer any evidence that the LG armies ARE fighting the war defensively, overall? I cannot recall any such information. I have found information that the CG and NG armies are doing such, though.As I understand it, the worldwound is just a thing that showed up on the day [God of Humanity's name here) did not return. In other words, the war was started when the Abyss started heading onto Golarian and into the material plane.

So yeah, the abyss started it. It's a defensive, hopeless war, even with forces of good (including things like Silver Dragons) fighting it.

[Naomi Li]

The Worldwound appeared when Aroden died, yes. Specifically, it is a link between Deskari's realm and the material plane. The forces of good are losing rather steadily, but the war isn't even close to hopeless. (Also, fairly sure that no significant extraplanar forces have gotten themselves involved in that war; it's just those living on planet that are fighting against the demonic invasion)

All of the good planes and all of the lawful ones are relatively likely allies in combating Deskari's forces (including Hell), and getting one of the other demon lords to hit Deskari's domain as a distraction might be doable. The biggest problem is that of manpower; they're all involved in fifteen trillion conflicts across existence. Golarion might be more important than most planets due to Rovagug being imprisoned there, but they have plenty of other issues on their agenda.

Ah, I realized I might have been unclear earlier: I meant the forces of Heaven tended to get involved in hopeless crusades and I could find no evidence they were actually fighting any wars defensively. Not that there weren't mortal forces that are LG fighting wars defensively.

[Squirrel_Dude]

(Also, fairly sure that no significant extraplanar forces have gotten themselves involved in that war; it's just those living on planet that are fighting against the demonic invasion)I not sure if they have or haven't, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been summoned to fight. It wouldn't be the first time that crusaders called on for deities or their heralds to aid them in their fight.

Though that hasn't always gone well in the past >.>


All of the good planes and all of the lawful ones are relatively likely allies in combating Deskari's forces (including Hell), and getting one of the other demon lords to hit Deskari's domain as a distraction might be doable.The only reasons getting demon lords to fight wouldn't be doable is they're too crazy to shut up and take your money to fight another demon lord, or they're already fighting another demon lord.


On the reincarnation staff thing:
Other note on upsetting Pharasma being a problem: Her being angry is only part of the problem. The other issue is I can't really think of any deity who's clergy would be really interested in funding this, either because they were opposed to it or because they were just interested in other things.

[Naomi Li]

I was thinking less "hire them" and more "create a magical portal between their domains", actually. (Specifically, two castings of "create greater demiplane" on a previously create demiplane to generate gateways that are facing each other on the demiplane side and in the middle of Deskari's domain and the border of a demon lord that loathes him. (I think you would be a bit spoiled for choice, there)

This could go horribly wrong, like everything involved with dealing with demons, but the odds would at least appear to be on the anti-demon side.

And while humans are the most common of the player races, I don't think that is true of various NPC races. See: Goblinoids, kobolds, troglodytes...

[Squirrel_Dude]

I was thinking less "hire them" and more "create a magical portal between their domains", actually. (Specifically, two castings of "create greater demiplane" on a previously create demiplane to generate gateways that are facing each other on the demiplane side and in the middle of Deskari's domain and the border of a demon lord that loathes him. (I think you would be a bit spoiled for choice, there)I'm not even sure that would be possible, with the Abyss being sentient and ever shifting and all.


And while humans are the most common of the player races, I don't think that is true of various NPC races. See: Goblinoids, kobolds, troglodytes...You making me pull out books here. Let me see...

The core races of humans, elves, dwarves, half orcs, halfling, halfelves, and gnomes are, according to the ISWG, the "most expansive and populous of Golarion's races." With humans being the most populous of those, it would follow that they are also the most populous of all races.

[Naomi Li]

Hn... there is the rule that deities can prevent a gate from opening in their domains, but demon lords aren't deities, and I don't THINK this is one area where they overlap... anyway, parts of the Abyss that are claimed by a demon lord are stable enough, and I don't think them moving in relation to each other with interfere any more than planets, stars, and galaxies moving would prevent gate from working.

And that is a very good point; completely forgot about that line. Though even if that is literally true and it wasn't retconned later on (implicitly or explicitly) there are undoubtedly many more TYPES of mostly evil self-aware creatures on Golarion that have been noted than neutral or good, and combined they might vastly outnumber humans. (If nothing else, the mostly evil creatures with exceedingly low life expectancies would probably be involved; though if they're true neutral by default that might skew things notably towards "neutral is most common")

[Squirrel_Dude]

Hn... there is the rule that deities can prevent a gate from opening in their domains, but demon lords aren't deities, and I don't THINK this is one area where they overlap... anyway, parts of the Abyss that are claimed by a demon lord are stable enough, and I don't think them moving in relation to each other with interfere any more than planets, stars, and galaxies moving would prevent gate from working.The obvious difference being that the celestial bodies move predictably (unless interfered with). The small segments of stable Abyss move as the Abyss will have them move, which is about as consistently as an ADHD bipolar schizophrenic's behavior.

[Naomi Li]

True. However, I don't think the text actually implies anything about there being difficulties in maintaining an extraplanar gateway between the Abyss and another plane. (In fact, given that there are at least two extraplanar gateways between the Abyss and Golarion that have stayed active for significantly longer periods of time than I was thinking of, there is evidence that it works perfectly well)


The mechanics of "fireball" and similar spells seem to have an easy explanation: the spells pull the appropriate material/energy and fill the entire area simultaneously for a small amount of time (for whatever reason, this is the most energy efficient combat usage) instead of creating a huge amount in a tiny area that then explodes.

In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, does anyone know if conservation of mass/energy is actually being obeyed?

[Naomi Li]

It seems likely that various forms of sign language exist in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (even if the writers generally make no acknowledgement of this). The language that would probably be the most common would likely be Celestial Sign Language, though Abyssal Sign Language (I'm looking at you, Lamashtu) might rival it as well.

Are there any rules regarding sign languages? Do they count as their own languages, or are they "part" of standard language packs? (Known to contain verbal communication and a written form already, so not that much of a stretch, really) If they are their own languages, would they also teach the relevant written form, even if it doesn't teach the spoken form? Or would it have its own written form entirely?

[Naomi Li]

A fairly simple trick that wizard academies/guilds/etc. could use, and might be a standard practice:
Wizard that is going to learn one or more spells borrows the group's blessed book and initially learns it in said blessed book for no materials cost. Then, for half the normal material cost and time it is copied into their main spellbook. Finally, one or more erase spells are used to clear the blessed book page(s) for future use.
End result: 50% more time taken, one or more first level spells cast, but 50% savings in scribing costs.

An idea that seems like interesting fluff: Fill the back pages of a spellbook with "scrolls" instead of having rolled up pieces of parchment that are drawn out when needed.

[Psyren]

In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, does anyone know if conservation of mass/energy is actually being obeyed?

This way lies madness dead catgirls.



In my mind, Pharasma being upset is largely irrelevant, and might even be a minor boon. (I rather dislike her)

Whether you like her or not, she - like Wee Jas and Kelemvor etc. - has a job to do, a job of cosmic importance. To deny her that job is to deny death, and that will piss off... basically the forces of Law itself, since death is part of the natural order of things.

In short, it's a dirty job, but some deity has to do it, less the setting collapse in on itself.

EDIT: Also, I see you referring to Pathfinder Campaign Setting a lot, but you should know that book is outdated - it was the setting book back when Golarion ran under 3.5 instead of PF rules. ISWG trumps it now, and while there are many similarities, they did in fact change a few details.

[Naomi Li]

Marut inevitables out for your blood? Sounds like an excellent time to run, break out anarchic weapons, or use plane shift or some other means of forcing it to travel to a new plane for a time. Sure, death might be the normal order of things, but the normal order of things sucks, and I see no problem with it being defied all over the place so people can continue living. It's not like doing so actually harms anyone.

(Note: I am using "Pathfinder Campaign Setting" to refer not to the book, but to the universe that Golarion exists in. Is there a different standard to refer to it?)

[Benthesquid]

Whether you like her or not, she - like Wee Jas and Kelemvor etc. - has a job to do, a job of cosmic importance. To deny her that job is to deny death, and that will piss off... basically the forces of Law itself, since death is part of the natural order of things.


Given that Pharasma is True Neutral, it's more likely that you'd have the forces of Balance after you.

[Keneth]

Of course the conservation of energy is observed. Otherwise the universe would explode into M&Ms. :smalltongue:

The real question is whether energy is limitless in PF to begin with. There are infinitely large planes out there, which might mean the energy contained within them is likewise infinite (though not necessarily). Might be interesting to think of the implications of that.

[Psyren]

Marut inevitables out for your blood? Sounds like an excellent time to run, break out anarchic weapons, or use plane shift or some other means of forcing it to travel to a new plane for a time. Sure, death might be the normal order of things, but the normal order of things sucks, and I see no problem with it being defied all over the place so people can continue living. It's not like doing so actually harms anyone.

(Note: I am using "Pathfinder Campaign Setting" to refer not to the book, but to the universe that Golarion exists in. Is there a different standard to refer to it?)

You'd likely have Aeons after you after awhile too; Akhanas to start with, but then, as you evaded or slew them, you might attract the attention of Bythoses or Pleromas.


Given that Pharasma is True Neutral, it's more likely that you'd have the forces of Balance after you.

She is, but Axis would still have an interest in keeping her in her post and thus help her - just as they would oppose her if she set out to try and kill everyone.

[Naomi Li]

Mostly, I am hopeful that the vast scale of the universe would render the widespread, but nonetheless relatively trivial, violations of cosmic law a low enough priority that the attackers could be subdued without any permanent losses again and again so that life can continue for as many people as possible for as long as possible. (True immortality is obviously impossible, as eventually luck will run out eventually: either by Rovagug, an aboleth meteor, a troll horde, an epic disease of ultimate death, or some other calamity)

Ah, yes, another spellcaster trick I thought of (mostly useful at lower levels): don't prepare any cantrips/orisons. Just keep the ones you had prepared yesterday unless there's a particularly good reason to switch them. At the lowest levels they represent a sizeable fraction of your spell slots and thus a lot of the preparation time.

(Regarding conservation of energy: unless demiplanes are constantly draining huge quantities of energy from one of the other planes the classic "wheel half in 'down' gravity and half in 'up' gravity could create infinite energy fairly trivially, along with plenty of other methods. I suppose a different question to ask is whether magic can violate the conservation of mass/energy. We do know that every plane in the PFCS other than the Maestrom is finite in size, even if that size is mind bogglingly huge.)