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RochtheCrusher
2013-09-12, 01:15 AM
You know, there are times as a DM when the worst thing you can do to your players is to let their crazy plans succeed, then hold them accountable.

I have this Tiefling wizard PC in my game, name of Seffanie. Her character sheet says "Good", but most days I would call her "Chaotic Cutesy". She mainly tries things because they would be amusing to her, and has backed down from her fairly evil courses of action more than a few times in the face of questions like, "So, you're going to kill this (friendly, captive) copper dragon to see if you can melt down its scales for cash?"

This week, while in combat with a (clearly evil, in this case) Drow Priestess and her allies, she decided to pray to her opponent's god, to undermine the caster's divine support. I asked, "... You're asking a favor of Lolth. The Queen of Spiders?" She said that was right. I sighed and said, " Gimme a roll for praying to Lolth, then. Religion Check."

She rolled really well. The priestess got a headache, and the party won the fight soundly.

Unfortunately, now it's up to me to figure out why it worked. What is Lolth's angle here, and what does she want from my 8th level wizard?

Up to now, the plot has been heavily involved with the cult of Vecna, which has found (as per usual) a plausible way to raise him to higher levels of power. Seffanie is helping to stop him, and Lolth is likely to want to stop him just because more power for Vecna is bad for, well, everybody, but if I understand her at all she'll be after at least an unsavory action for any favor she bestows... probably way out of proportion with what she gives. And she will definitely collect for that headache.

So, any advice would be appreciated; what do I do with a player who has earned the Spider Queen's notice? How can I make her life... a bit more interesting? :-P

Newoblivion
2013-09-12, 03:54 AM
Really cool actually. And it's really awesome that you try as much as possible to allow your players freedom of playing.

About Lolth. Well, maybe the wizard in the end will have to chose between two evils? If Vecna fails then Lolth wins. If Lolth fails, Vecna wins. Maybe it wasn't Lolth at all? maybe it was a good deity? and you can try to use it as a tool to pull her a bit closer to goodness?

Damon_Tor
2013-09-12, 07:07 AM
I'd start with creepy stuff. Spiders watching her while she sleeps, finding spiderwebs in odd places, things like that.

Then premonitions: clues would come to the party from the spiders, often woven into the webs. This would be a great boon to them, leading them to wealth and treasure, as well as leads on whatever major quest they're on. Ideally, you want it to get to the point where the party is leaning more on the spider clues than any real investigation on their part.

In the end, of course, the spiders lead them astray. Perhaps they seek the culprit of some crime, and the spiders lead them to kill an innocent man. Maybe they lead them to an artifact, but in removing the artifact they unleash some horrible evil on the world.

Mando Knight
2013-09-12, 10:59 AM
Lolth found the prayer amusing, and has begun weaving a web to trap the girl. She sees skin-tight glossy black leathers in Seffanie's future.

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-12, 05:44 PM
Then premonitions: clues would come to the party from the spiders, often woven into the webs. This would be a great boon to them, leading them to wealth and treasure, as well as leads on whatever major quest they're on. Ideally, you want it to get to the point where the party is leaning more on the spider clues than any real investigation on their part.

I like this... good start to the slippery slope. In the early cases, I could even have the webs outline the only rational path, thereby forcing them to get over their revulsion or do something patently stupid... like having Xykon tell you to save for retirement. He's absolutely right, you should... but you'll get into trouble following his advice in general.

The thing is, my players would openly defy Lolth if she demanded something from them, which at their current level would be... bad. But if the building is burning down and a horde of spiders lead the way to the exit... are they really going to head back into the flames to leave a different way? And later, when the webs spell out the villain's weakness, are they going to refuse to use the cold iron?

I'll have to slip in a bit more hook as things progress, but I think I can work with this. Thanks!


About Lolth. Well, maybe the wizard in the end will have to chose between two evils? If Vecna fails then Lolth wins. If Lolth fails, Vecna wins.

I don't know that I want them to be fated to lose like that, but she definitely would have an interest in making it look that way... obscure things in such a way that, as the digital clock counts down and they have to choose between cutting the Vecna wire and the Lolth wire, they completely miss the "Disarm" button in their haste to save the world.

Arkhosia
2013-09-14, 05:44 PM
I love the spider idea!
And maybe clerics of Corellion and the other Sehanine see seffanie as evil.

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-14, 07:10 PM
In the interest of sharing ideas for others who may DM similar situations, here is what I plan to do:

My characters also decided to skip large parts of the dungeon and proceed to challenge the big bad (of this tier, anyway). Unfortunately, this starts triggering his final plan, which the PCs are able to see, so diverting them to level up a bit more would be difficult.

I plan to give them Lvl 8 a bit early, therefore, and flavor the increased strength as the "blessing" of Lolth. Their faces will take on a bit of the Drow's quality, becoming a bit more lovely but, at the same time, colder and more haughty.

Meanwhile, the hollow sword Seffanie picked up, which is leading her towards the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path, will be infested with (surprisingly helpful and resilient) spiders.

The combination of these spiders leaving helpful hints for them and the changes in their own bodies should fill them with dread, but still not allow them to cast off the taint immediately. It should make them wonder why Lolth is extending her power to them this way, and what her stake is in them, but let them stew on it while tackling the immediate threat.

After that, well... we'll see where it goes.

Do you think that's going too far with it? I don't want to punish creativity, of course, but I do want to get across that evil gods are not to be trifled with. On the other side, I certainly don't want the fighter to pray to Gruumsh next week for another level. :-P

Mando Knight
2013-09-14, 07:37 PM
I plan to give them Lvl 8 a bit early, therefore, and flavor the increased strength as the "blessing" of Lolth. Their faces will take on a bit of the Drow's quality, becoming a bit more lovely but, at the same time, colder and more haughty.

Don't force a personality change on them. Darkened skin and lightened hair would be appropriate, though.

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-14, 08:06 PM
Oh no, not personality, just... you know how some people look like you're beneath them, or like they're scary, whether or not it's true and whether or not they think that?

That said, I'll choose my words more carefully when I pitch it to them, so as to not give that impression.

Arkhosia
2013-09-14, 10:32 PM
In the interest of sharing ideas for others who may DM similar situations, here is what I plan to do:

My characters also decided to skip large parts of the dungeon and proceed to challenge the big bad (of this tier, anyway). Unfortunately, this starts triggering his final plan, which the PCs are able to see, so diverting them to level up a bit more would be difficult.

I plan to give them Lvl 8 a bit early, therefore, and flavor the increased strength as the "blessing" of Lolth. Their faces will take on a bit of the Drow's quality, becoming a bit more lovely but, at the same time, colder and more haughty.

Meanwhile, the hollow sword Seffanie picked up, which is leading her towards the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path, will be infested with (surprisingly helpful and resilient) spiders.

The combination of these spiders leaving helpful hints for them and the changes in their own bodies should fill them with dread, but still not allow them to cast off the taint immediately. It should make them wonder why Lolth is extending her power to them this way, and what her stake is in them, but let them stew on it while tackling the immediate threat.

After that, well... we'll see where it goes.

Do you think that's going too far with it? I don't want to punish creativity, of course, but I do want to get across that evil gods are not to be trifled with. On the other side, I certainly don't want the fighter to pray to Gruumsh next week for another level. :-P

I love it!
Easy solution to the prayer problem: "Lolth has, by giving you power, marked you as her [followers/favored souls/whatever is best appropriate], and no god is foolish enough to attempt to claim you from the god of deceit."

Mando Knight
2013-09-14, 10:48 PM
Easy solution to the prayer problem: "Lolth has, by giving you power, marked you as her [followers/favored souls/whatever is best appropriate], and no god is foolish enough to attempt to claim you from the god of deceit."

Corellon would.

Arkhosia
2013-09-14, 11:28 PM
Corellon would.

Well yeah, but that takes a epic destiny and being a drow :smalltongue:

Echobeats
2013-09-15, 05:32 AM
There are plenty of great ideas above for how to turn this into a long-term plot element. But if you don't want to do that, you could still get one interesting encounter out of it.

Tell Seffanie's player (privately) that a giant spider (who is Lolth, but let her work that out for herself) appears to her in a dream and says something cryptic and spooky about the price for her aid. Let this stay unresolved for a few sessions.

Then, one day when you need an extra encounter to fill the session, the PCs awake in the middle of the night to find a giant spider in the middle of their camp. Seffanie is nowhere to be seen. Once combat begins, give the monster's stat card to Seffanie's player. Hopefully she will roleplay it properly and not let the PCs have too easy a time of it (if not, you can just take control back after a warning). It sounds like this player would enjoy taking an antagonistic role for a bit anyway. Once the spider is defeated, it turns back into Seffanie (who should probably be bloodied or something).

Obviously this means you will have to find, or make up, a spidery solo monster of an appropriate level for your slightly reduced party. Pp 246-7 of the Monster Manual may be helpful.

(In my 4E game, the DM did something a bit like this to me: my character had history involving demons. The reasons why it happened were completely different though.)

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-16, 06:16 PM
That last could be useful if my party really hates this and I need to backpedal. :-P

Jigürd
2013-09-21, 12:22 AM
I have always been a fan of giving out multiclass feats to represent things like this. Maybe if she (voluntarily or involuntarily) embraces Lolth's help, after a while you could give her multiclass Dark Pact Warlock as a free feat.

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-21, 07:40 AM
Could be handy... I'm a bit wary of limiting her options regarding Multiclassing in future, and I'm also hesitant to complicate the character mechanically as she isn't strong in the art of the Rules Lawyer (to the point where her hubby, the party fighter, usually levels her up and whatnot).

Still, if there's some synergy, and if the Multiclass rules are a lot simpler than the Hybrid rules, I might consider it.

At the moment, the difference between her and the rest of the party is that they can be freed of Lolth's influence by a token sacrifice to, say, Pelor. They never agreed to this, after all.

For Seffanie, though, winning free will involve some sort of spirit quest or other drastic action. Should she not pursue such things, more powers/connections to Lolth will become appropriate, though perhaps still difficult to manage.

Yakk
2013-09-21, 08:25 AM
Just do the hair. No face to start.


The spiders should be environmental, not in an item.


They should lead the PCs toward spider themed armor and weapons and items. They could be as simple as a normal magic weapon with a spider sigil on it. Leather that is black, plate that is chitonous, robes made out of spider silk, etc.

Any dreams should never mention a price. Just have a dream described, maybe one with extremely vague hints, and mention the huge spider watching as if it was unremarkable and just part of the background.

You know Tattoo items? Spidermarks. On their faces. Marking them as favored by she who waits. This after many items and clues, and completely optional (they find the decals, with the description of the cool things they do (feel free to custom craft something cool for each PC), and no matter where they put it on the spider crawls to their face).

Know how PCs like folk who give them toys? Lloth starts giving and giving. 9/10 items come with her mark attached. The PCs are free to turn down her gifts, but they do not get anything else 'instead'.

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-12, 11:27 AM
One last bump for this thread, with my apologies... just thought it would be fair to let you guys know how this has played out.

The group has been gifted with Darkvision and an extra level (mainly because they decided to skip some grinding and the BBEG is coming up) as a result of Seffanie's prayer to Lolth. Since then, she has tried to make repeated, opportunistic prayers to Pelor and similar gods, all of which have been answered by Lolth instead... with sincere showers of gifts of spidery goodness. The entire party was bodysurfing on a wave of spiders when she prayed for greater speed to catch a ship, for example.

This had pretty much the desired effect, making my players very nervous... to the point where they actually refused help they were in desperate need of. The Paladin has determined that a token animal sacrifice will free each of those who never prayed to Lolth from her influence, they just need time to track down the cattle. So far so good.

When they got back to their (previously secure) stronghold, I ramped things up a bit. There was someone there waiting for them... a lovely dark elf, singing a beautiful old song in Elven and working at a loom. She basically admitted to being Lolth, but introduced herself as Araushnee, rightful goddess of Fate and artisans.

Apparently, there was a small misunderstanding when the goddess invited Gruumsh to peace talks with her husband, Correllon. That whore, Sehanine, used the opportunity to muscle in on her man, seducing him and poisoning him against her. Next thing she knew, he'd turned her into a giant, bloated spider and thrown her into Hell... real soap opera material.

Seffanie thought this was all very convincing, actually, and said she'd be happy to accept Lolth's help, on a temporary basis, as long as we "got rid of all the spiders and ickiness." As this seems to play firmly into Lolth's wheelhouse, I'm stowing my GMing red flags (as requested?!) and moving forward with the whole soul corrupting business...

Should be interesting. ^_^

Mando Knight
2013-10-12, 11:32 AM
Well, she's already lying to Seffanie's face. Lolth's hole is in the Abyss, not the Nine Hells. :smallwink:

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-12, 12:05 PM
Well, her downplaying of the whole betrayal thing and her leaving out the fact that she tried to kill Correllon about five times (by seducing other gods to kill him, no less) before he threw her out might be a bit more significant... pretty sure she could wriggle out of the whole Hell/Abyss thing by saying, "So sorry dear... I was being figurative. I just meant it wasn't pleasant, is all."

And that's assuming that Seffanie even does her research in the first place. All those histories were written by The Man, after all, trying to brainwash you. :-P

Kevka Palazzo
2013-10-23, 02:12 PM
Well, her downplaying of the whole betrayal thing and her leaving out the fact that she tried to kill Correllon about five times (by seducing other gods to kill him, no less) before he threw her out might be a bit more significant... pretty sure she could wriggle out of the whole Hell/Abyss thing by saying, "So sorry dear... I was being figurative. I just meant it wasn't pleasant, is all."

And that's assuming that Seffanie even does her research in the first place. All those histories were written by The Man, after all, trying to brainwash you. :-P

I've got a 4E game in the works, and Lolth's reputation in that is explicitly fabricated by Corellon and his "bros". She's really gonna be the Good Goddess of female empowerment and freedom, though in the millennia since her "fall" so many groups have started legitimately worshipping "evil Lolth" that she's either split into two different personalities or is in danger of transforming into creepy evil spider goddess.

On-topic: I love how this has turned out. Trickster/manipulative gods are fun to deal with, and with a paladin in the party Steffanie's continued association with the spidery goddess of spiders could turn problematic. Especially since it's already affected the party several times.

I wish I was in your game. :)

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-25, 10:56 AM
I've got a 4E game in the works, and Lolth's reputation in that is explicitly fabricated by Corellon and his "bros". She's really gonna be the Good Goddess of female empowerment and freedom, though in the millennia since her "fall" so many groups have started legitimately worshipping "evil Lolth" that she's either split into two different personalities or is in danger of transforming into creepy evil spider goddess.

That should work well for you... when I was working out the lie for my game, this sort of fell into my lap after reading "the official party line." As a DM, I could easily believe her story... in fact, after being stuck in that dark hole for so long, I think SHE more than half believes it.

Interestingly, the thing that poisoned my Fighter player (who is nonetheless staunchly anti-trust when it comes to Lolth) against Correllon was something he freely admits he did (at least, on Wikipedia). The official story says that Correllon turned his wife into a bloated spider so that she could no longer persuade him with her feminine wiles, which the player found to be an extremely unmanly thing to do (Just grow a backbone and say "No" to her already! Does every woman with a positive Charisma score control your actions, you wimp?) and also possibly mysoginistic.

Also, the argument that, "The only followers I could find with my new shape are those backstabbing, zenophobic, self serving Drow, so my domains have turned a little dark... But I'm trying, honestly! If only I could get a better class of people worshiping me, I could bounce back. I know I could!" With my players, at least, that tested pretty well.


I wish I was in your game. :)

Well, thank you. ^_^

Havokca
2013-10-26, 10:44 AM
I have to say, that I love the way you're dealing with this.

I know that someone suggested that you could use it as the hook for a singular encounter if you didn't want to incorporate it into your overarching storyline, and I'm happy for your players that you didn't give into that temptation.

At its heart, D&D is about telling a *story*, and your Chaotic Cutesy player gave you one of the most potentially far-reaching plot hooks EVER....

The party's current BBEG could just be playing a bit-part in whatever scheme Lloth is working on that caused her to grant the favour in the first place.

Too many DMs are too quick to invoke Rule 0 when the PCs try something (or worse yet, turn the consequences of that action into the character's insta-death), rather than figuring out what those consequences could be and weaving those into the story in a way that adds to it.