Gestalt and saves/bab

[Crake]

Ok, so I've been running a somewhat gestalt game recently (though it's currently on hold atm) where the players are gestalted with either class HD (with a template), or outsider HD, combined with some powerful abilities to make up the varying LA of the outsiders they are.

One thing I've been wondering though, how does the saves calculation work? I'm a little confused by it. Do you pick the better stuff at each level? Or do you tally up both sides and then pick the better one? (I've been using the latter)

For example, lets say one of the players is outsider 10//Sorcerer 5/mind bender 1/sorcerer 4.

So the outsider HD give him a straight +7 base will (+2 at 1, +1 at 2/4/6/8/10) and the sorc/mind bender side gives him +8 (+2 at 1, +1 at 2/4, +2 at 5, +1 at 7/9)

Does it end up at +8, since the sorc/mind bender side is better? Or does it end up as....
+2 at 1
+1 at 2
+1 at 4
+2 at 5
+1 at 6
+1 at 7
+1 at 8
+1 at 9
+1 at 10
for a total of.... +11? Since the mind bender level offsets the sorc +will stuff to odd levels, does this potentially make save progression ridiculous?

On the other hand, combine a poor save and a good save, does it go up at level 3, since the class with a poor save gets a boost at 3, where a good save doesn't?

Edit: Same question for bab, by having two half bab classes, one offset by another class somewhere, does that equate to full bab?

[Aegis013]

I recommend using the fractional BAB and Saves variant from Unearthed Arcana. It makes it very simple. Since I don't see it in the SRD I'll briefly explain it.

Half BAB adds .5 to your BAB (always round down).
Good BAB adds .75 to your BAB (always round down).
Full BAB adds 1 to your BAB (always round down).

For saves the first level (where it says you get 2 in the save) gives 2.5
Afterwards for good saves you get .5 per level. (always round down)
Low saves give you 1/3 per level (or .33repeating). (always round down)

[Crake]

I recommend using the fractional BAB and Saves variant from Unearthed Arcana. It makes it very simple. Since I don't see it in the SRD I'll briefly explain it.

Half BAB adds .5 to your BAB (always round down).
Good BAB adds .75 to your BAB (always round down).
Full BAB adds 1 to your BAB (always round down).

For saves the first level (where it says you get 2 in the save) gives 2.5
Afterwards for good saves you get .5 per level. (always round down)
Low saves give you 1/3 per level (or .33repeating). (always round down)

Yeah, I'm aware of the fractional bab/saves system, I quite like it actually. And it would make sense with gestalt characters. It doesn't really answer my question of whether a player should be picking the best at each level, rather than adding up each side and picking at the end? (although by your answer, I'm guessing you're in favor of the former)

[Aegis013]

Yeah, I'm aware of the fractional bab/saves system, I quite like it actually. And it would make sense with gestalt characters. It doesn't really answer my question of whether a player should be picking the best at each level, rather than adding up each side and picking at the end? (although by your answer, I'm guessing you're in favor of the former)

I believe you're supposed to get the best at each level. However, the answer to that question is really very unclear without the fractional saves/BAB, since the rules just say "choose the better progression from the two classes". I'd say it'd fall under DM purview.

And you're right. I'm in favor of the former (via using fractional variant).

[Evolved Shrimp]

The Gestalt rules are actually quite clear on this issue: For any aspects of your character that are advanced by both classes, you pick the better value at each level.

The DM is, of course, free to rule otherwise, but that would then be a houserule, not RAW Gestalt.

[Chronos]

The Gestalt rules are actually quite clear on this issue: For any aspects of your character that are advanced by both classes, you pick the better value at each level.

Yes, but this is often misinterpreted, to give things like a Barbarian 1/Wizard 19 // Sorcerer 20 with 20 BAB. It's not about "which one happens to get an increase at this level"; it's about "which one has a better progression".

A shortcut way to think about it: For each characteristic (BAB, saves, etc), pick one class at each level. Then, calculate what a non-gestalt character with those class levels would get. That's what you get.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Yes, but this is often misinterpreted, to give things like a Barbarian 1/Wizard 19 // Sorcerer 20 with 20 BAB. It's not about "which one happens to get an increase at this level"; it's about "which one has a better progression".

No, per RAW it's actually what happens at each level.

When one would at each level take one class and use its entire progression up to that level, one could get 20 BAB by taking wizard 20 // sorcerer 19 / Fighter 1 - which seems hardly appropriate, as noted above.

Or, by going from wizard 19 // fighter 19 to wizard 20 // fighter 19 / sorcerer 1, you would drop from BAB 19 to 10.

Which also seems not really appropriate.

[Chronos]

When one would at each level take one class and use its entire progression up to that level, one could get 20 BAB by taking wizard 20 // sorcerer 19 / Fighter 1 - which seems hardly appropriate, as noted above.
Such a character could have the same BAB as a character with 1 level of wizard and then any combination of 19 levels of wizard and sorcerer, which no matter what combination you choose, will always be a total of 10.



Or, by going from wizard 19 // fighter 19 to wizard 20 // fighter 19 / sorcerer 1, you would drop from BAB 19 to 10.
No, such a character would go from having BAB of 19, same as a fighter 19, to BAB 19, same as a fighter 19/sorcerer 1 or fighter 19/wizard 1.

[Urpriest]

The whole "sides" concept in gestalt is a misconception. When you remove it, a lot of these confusions go away.

Basically, don't think of yourself as having levels on one side and levels on the other, think about it as each level taking a level in a distinct class that happens to be a mashup of two classes.

So in the OP example, you're not an outsider 10//Sorcerer 5/mind bender 1/sorcerer 4. Rather, you're the following:

(Outsider 5//Sorcerer 5)/(Outsider 1//Mindbender 1)/(Outsider +4//Sorcerer +4)

Now RHD is weird in gestalt. RAW, it doesn't go to one side or another, it goes at the beginning of the progression just like it would on a normal character. But if you houserule Outsider to work this way, the question is still answerable.

The issue here is that, as per gestalt, (Outsider 1//Mindbender 1) represents a different class than the previous Outsider//Sorcerer levels. So it actually gets the benefits of Outsider 1 again, complete with +2 to all saves.

Naturally, this seems a bit silly, and it gets weirder were Outsider an actual class, since the implication would be that you get your level 1 class features again.

All of this supports my general point: if you're going to use gestalt, you have to institute houserules to make it work with multiclassing. That's just inherent in the gestalt system.