Is Hogwarts a crappy school?

[Kato]

Now that I got your attention: No, I'm not talking about the obvious reasons, like death traps all around the campus and teachers who are for a good part either incompetent or dangerous themselves.
My point is the lesson plan.


So, they get there at around age ten, just after elementary school. So the kids had mostly basic maths, writing and a few other simple subjects. And then all the normal education stops and they only learn about magic?
I will kind of admit, seeing as there is magic in the world, some matters of physics or chemistry lose their point, as there obviously is no conservation of energy and wizards on a daily basis screw over other laws of physics (I still think it would be handy to learn a few of them anyway). But what about other matters? Yeah, they do learn about wizard history but does that mean you don't have to know about muggle history? Is Voldemort's reign of terror really more important than WW II? Or any old wizard duel? Is "Broomstick riding" a decent replacement for PE? Or do wizards really not need to pay any attention to muggle politics?


My intent is not to turn this into an argument over real life educational systems (while this will not be entirely avoidable). I'm sure we can agree there are things beyond fourth class that are still invaluable for kids to be taught. Also, I'm sure there are other fictional schools for "gifted" children which neglect normal education for whatever special classes the kids need there. Though I at the moment fail to remember any particular examples.

So... opinions, fellow Playgrounders?

[Tebryn]

You're not the first to bring this up honestly. If I recall Hermonie was taking advanced math so it just seems to be geared towards what you want to do with your life.

[Rainbownaga]

Maybe they still had normal classes outside of the ones that are shown. After all, you only really see the characters learning something if it's going to be relevant later.

I used to watch the Worst Witch on TV which had the same sort of "boarding school for witches and wizards" thing as H.P., and they had music lessons and had a mortal PE teacher too.

[Ikialev]

Man this question has been asked millions of time. The answer always is:
Yes, Hogwarts is a terrible school, but at the same time the world of Harry Potter is pretty lousy itself, mostly because of assy worldbuilding, but also because it's supposed to be a racist dystopia. Also I think Grindelwald was supposed to be a wizard Hitler.

E: And to the guy above: no, because we've been reading about people learning magic history with Binns and that never wasn't a filler.

E2: I meant Binns but now MY TYPO HAS BEEN QUOTED AND THERE'S NO GOING BACK.

[Aotrs Commander]

Man this question has been asked millions of time. The answer always is:
Yes, Hogwarts is a terrible school, but at the same time the world of Harry Potter is pretty lousy itself, mostly because of assy worldbuilding, but also because it's supposed to be a racist dystopia. Also I think Grindelwald was supposed to be a wizard Hitler.

E: And to the guy above: no, because we've been reading about people learning magic history with Binna and that never wasn't a filler.

Or that the wizarding world is a good couple of hundred (if not more) years behind the muggle one in a lot of respects; schooling being one of them. And wizarding culture - probably just by sheer nature of being hidden - is elitist and insular. (The increased longevity of wizards probably doesn't help this, either.) The wizarduing world tends to have an attitude - even unconciously - that they are better than the muggles (look at Arthur Weasley: he treats muggles artefacts with the same kind of joy a parent does of a child's drawing pinned on the fridge). So muggle-things not really considered important.

As I recall, Grindelwald happened at the same time as WW2 (the implication being he was either responsible or at least allied with Axis forces), so by the wizard's own skewed perspective, that would be the important aspect, and the muggle tragedy merely a sideshow.

[Black Jester]

The lack of regular classes is probably a mean to address the primary target group, you know, kids. One of the strengths of Harry Potter was at the books grew with the audience and the first book is still a lot more child-oriented that the latter ones.
o, if your target audience is about ten or eleven, the chances are high, that the idea of magic training and broom-riding and so forth look much more appealing than boring old math. It is combining a familiar setting for the target audience (school) with a considerate upgrade (no boring classes) to create a nice self-insert wish-fulfillment environment for prepubescent kids. It's not 'bad worldbuilding', (at least not primarily), it is forming the world to the appeal of the target audience and that has worked rather well.

What's actually scary is the idea of a large number of kids armed with highly dangerous devices *all the time* and the security standards (or lack thereof) in the school. Because we all know, puberty is the time of highest personal responsibility and restraint...

[The Rose Dragon]

I recall Hermione taking numerology, but never advanced math.

[Traab]

Or you could look at it as a trade school, which is what it is really. I went to a school where you could learn to be an electrician, a hvac guy, or a plumber. The only math there involved solving specific problems as related to your fields. The only history is listening to the teachers describe what it was like for them working in the field. Clearly even the most inbred of pureblood idiots knows enough math to buy an ice cream at floreans, or to be sure they arent being cheated by their bosses on pay day. They learn wizarding history, which si all that matters to them as they are literally a separate world from us. Why should they CARE about the rise and fall of the roman empire except for how many goblin rebellions took place in that time frame? They can clearly read and write perfectly fine and know enough english to speak and write with good grammar.

So is it a good school? Yeah, its a good trade school. Its a place you go to learn magic and decide what field you want to work in. Its not meant to be general education that covers everything, its supposed to teach you about magic and its related fields.

[Rater202]

I recall Hermione taking numerology, but never advanced math.

Arithmancy. Which, Ironicaly is a method of divination that uses numbers to tell the future. But seeing as the mancy suffix is almost never used in it's original context, HP's arithmancy could be something completly diferant.

[Rater202]

Or you could look at it as a trade school, which is what it is really. I went to a school where you could learn to be an electrician, a hvac guy, or a plumber. The only math there involved solving specific problems as related to your fields. The only history is listening to the teachers describe what it was like for them working in the field. Clearly even the most inbred of pureblood idiots knows enough math to buy an ice cream at floreans, or to be sure they arent being cheated by their bosses on pay day. They learn wizarding history, which si all that matters to them as they are literally a separate world from us. Why should they CARE about the rise and fall of the roman empire except for how many goblin rebellions took place in that time frame? They can clearly read and write perfectly fine and know enough english to speak and write with good grammar.

So is it a good school? Yeah, its a good trade school. Its a place you go to learn magic and decide what field you want to work in. Its not meant to be general education that covers everything, its supposed to teach you about magic and its related fields.
yes, but everyone falls asleep in Binns class(history of magic) and it's implied that he only ever talks about goblin rebellions any way.

These are people with access to time travel. do you want someone with a fourth grade knowledge of history to have that abillity?(in the best case scenario, let's leave out the Noble-hicks)

[Prime32]

Hermione brings it up in the first book (at the potion puzzle?) that most wizards aren't very well-educated outside magic.

[Finlam]

My point is the lesson plan.


I hear they have awesome substitutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAJql0P8QYY) though. MIND FREAK!

[jedipilot24]

Yeah Hogwarts is a lousy school because apparently there are only a dozen teachers to supervise several hundred students. That right there is a recipe for, among other things, lots of teenage pregnancies.

Not to mention the tremendous workload each teacher must have. They most likely have to use time-turners just to get to all their classes, let alone actually grade all their work.

Puts another spin on why no one wants to be the Defense teacher: the hours are terrible and you have no assistants.

Snape routinely commits offenses that would get any real teacher fired and black-listed in a heartbeat. Not to mention the fact that Snape's teaching methods over time would have seriously reduced the number of competent potion-brewers graduating from Hogwarts, which in turn would reduce the number of people qualified to become Aurors or Healers or any of the other professions that need N.E.W.T level potions.

Then, of course, there's the headmaster who has also has at least two other full-time jobs. Dumbledore's time-turners must really get a workout. And this puts another spin on Dumbledore's apparent obliviousness to Snape's wrongdoing and to Harry's home life.

[Silver Swift]

Okay so let's look at the subjects that are given at regular schools and compare them to hogwarts:

Math: There is the already mentioned arithmancy, but this seems to be non compulsory as neither Harry nor Ron follows it, so yeah, pretty big oversight.

Physics/Chemistry: Not as relevant since the laws of physics are mostly loose guidelines in this universe.

PE: Between broomstick riding and the regular surviving at hogwarts stuff I think these kids get enough exercise.

National Language (english in this case): I'm not entirely sure how relevant this course is in our world, I'd say you'd pick up sufficient reading/writing skills from other courses to functionally use the language and studying literature is IMO a thorough waste of time anyway.

Foreign Languages: This is a much bigger problem, the Britain wizardling world clearly has connections with the wizards of other countries, whom presumably don't all speak English, so it would be useful to at least encounter these languages while you're still in the age where you can learn them easily.

History: Apart from being taught by a ghost, this is pretty well covered, yeah they don't get muggle history, but how many of us have had Asian history in high school? There simply is to much history to cover so you have to make choices.

Geography: Another pretty big oversight, I think. Geography is relevant even to wizards and it is not something that is taught in elementary school, so I really don't know when wizards would be taught how the world works.


So all in all, hogwarts isn't that bad, there are a few mayor gaps, but most of them aren't all that relevant to wizards. Geography and foreign languages are really the only serious problems.

[LordChaos13]

Now that I got your attention: No, I'm not talking about the obvious reasons, like death traps all around the campus and teachers who are for a good part either incompetent or dangerous themselves.
My point is the lesson plan.


So, they get there at around age ten, just after elementary school. So the kids had mostly basic maths, writing and a few other simple subjects. And then all the normal education stops and they only learn about magic?
I will kind of admit, seeing as there is magic in the world, some matters of physics or chemistry lose their point, as there obviously is no conservation of energy and wizards on a daily basis screw over other laws of physics (I still think it would be handy to learn a few of them anyway). But what about other matters? Yeah, they do learn about wizard history but does that mean you don't have to know about muggle history? Is Voldemort's reign of terror really more important than WW II? Or any old wizard duel? Is "Broomstick riding" a decent replacement for PE? Or do wizards really not need to pay any attention to muggle politics?


My intent is not to turn this into an argument over real life educational systems (while this will not be entirely avoidable). I'm sure we can agree there are things beyond fourth class that are still invaluable for kids to be taught. Also, I'm sure there are other fictional schools for "gifted" children which neglect normal education for whatever special classes the kids need there. Though I at the moment fail to remember any particular examples.

So... opinions, fellow Playgrounders?

Hogwarts is better and worse than you think. Mostly better
1. They do have History (albeit the incompetency you mention then exclude). its reserved for the Wizarding World, but honestly when did you have History of Native American tribes? As an entire class. Especially when you count the prejuidice against it
2. There is no pre-Hogwarts schooling. it is likely the kids get homeschooled (because there aren't preformed friend groups and Malfoy hadnt seen Ron until the train, only recognizing because Weasley Redhair)
3. There is a math class, it's just an Elective (Arithmancy, which is the magic of numbers)
4. WW2 is covered. Grindlewad's reign is suspiciously close to WW2 things. It is implied he isn't Hitler but the mastermind behind or ally too him.
5. They HAVE chemistry. What do you think POTIONS is?
6. Broomstick riding isn't a replacement for PE, it is a first-year only class and may or may not be the singular lesson mentioned in the book or several over the course of months, but certainly not after that


These are people with access to time travel. do you want someone with a fourth grade knowledge of history to have that abillity?(in the best case scenario, let's leave out the Noble-hicks)

Timeturners are closed-loop and implied to be short-range (1 hour/spin, how many spins to get to even WWII? Or your birthday party you missed last week?) Though admittedly the Turner Mione got might be a limited one

[Rater202]

Okay so let's look at the subjects that are given at regular schools and compare them to hogwarts:

History: Apart from being taught by a ghost, this is pretty well covered, yeah they don't get muggle history, but how many of us have had Asian history in high school? There simply is to much history to cover so you have to make choices.

except the ghost does not know the names of students, and literally every time we see into that class, hes talking about goblin rebellions. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's the same one each time. the only time anything other than goblin rebellions get's mentioned was during Harry's summer assignment on witch burnings and how they never got a real witch.

at no point when harry is reading his text book for that, does it talk about why the witch burnings happened in the first place. and that is some pretty relevent information for a witch or wizard, don'tcha think?

[jedipilot24]

Hogwarts is better and worse than you think. Mostly better
5. They HAVE chemistry. What do you think POTIONS is?


And if I had had Snape as a chemistry teacher, I would not have had nearly as much fun in that class; in fact, I would have hated it.

[LordChaos13]

No, I'm not talking about the obvious reasons, like death traps all around the campus and teachers who are for a good part either incompetent or dangerous themselves.

Discounting the teacher himself, the class is basically Wizard! Science/Chem Pracs

[Dienekes]

Isn't it a plot point of the first book that most people in the wizarding world are terrible at what muggles learn? Things like math and logic and whatnot?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah Hogwarts is a lousy school because apparently there are only a dozen teachers to supervise several hundred students. That right there is a recipe for, among other things, lots of teenage pregnancies.

Not to mention the tremendous workload each teacher must have. They most likely have to use time-turners just to get to all their classes, let alone actually grade all their work.

Puts another spin on why no one wants to be the Defense teacher: the hours are terrible and you have no assistants.

Snape routinely commits offenses that would get any real teacher fired and black-listed in a heartbeat. Not to mention the fact that Snape's teaching methods over time would have seriously reduced the number of competent potion-brewers graduating from Hogwarts, which in turn would reduce the number of people qualified to become Aurors or Healers or any of the other professions that need N.E.W.T level potions.

Then, of course, there's the headmaster who has also has at least two other full-time jobs. Dumbledore's time-turners must really get a workout. And this puts another spin on Dumbledore's apparent obliviousness to Snape's wrongdoing and to Harry's home life.

Definitely from fanon, but my head canon is that House Elfs slip some birth control magic into all the students meals.

[Tiki Snakes]

Given that wizards don't study biology at Hogwarts and don't have any kind of sex ed class, are we entirely sure they even know that's likely to be an issue? :smallwink:

Also the thought of the house elves regularly going round spiking everyone's food and drink is pretty horrifying. Which is to say, it sounds quite likely. :smallbiggrin:

[Kato]

First off: I'm aware a lot of this comes down to crappy world building. How far this was actually addressed in the first book I can't recall.. if so I feel it's - again - poor world building as certainly a bunch of human technology could also be useful for wizards. Or even basic science should be something wizards would be intended to get a grasp on.

Now to some quotes:



Math: There is the already mentioned arithmancy, but this seems to be non compulsory as neither Harry nor Ron follows it, so yeah, pretty big oversight.
While we have no proof what they are teaching in arithmancy I feel much more inclined it's closer to numerology than to maths. I could be wrong here and then... well, you can argue how necessary it is for people to know more than multiplication tables... (I think very useful but that's just me)


Physics/Chemistry: Not as relevant since the laws of physics are mostly loose guidelines in this universe.
Yeah, I kind of admitted this. Still, even if you can make probably construct a building that defies all laws of nature wouldn't it be useful to know what part of it you can build without magic? Or even if you have magic medicine, wouldn't there be some occasion when you might want to have something that can not blow your head off?



PE: Between broomstick riding and the regular surviving at hogwarts stuff I think these kids get enough exercise.
I forgot to add the bit about running from the death traps in the opening post even though I considered it :smalltongue:


National Language (english in this case): I'm not entirely sure how relevant this course is in our world, I'd say you'd pick up sufficient reading/writing skills from other courses to functionally use the language and studying literature is IMO a thorough waste of time anyway.
While I'm not the strictest defender of teaching literature in large quantities at school I'd still say a fourth grader doesn't have the grasp on grammar and spelling and adult should have and just learning this by having your homework spell checked feels insufficient to me.


Foreign Languages: This is a much bigger problem, the Britain wizardling world clearly has connections with the wizards of other countries, whom presumably don't all speak English, so it would be useful to at least encounter these languages while you're still in the age where you can learn them easily.
I'm not quite sure how English speaking countries handle foreign languages. I think Spanish and possibly French (German?) is quite common in the US as a possible addition but I have no idea how Britain handles it. So are they even that distant from normal (British) schools in that regard?


History: Apart from being taught by a ghost, this is pretty well covered, yeah they don't get muggle history, but how many of us have had Asian history in high school? There simply is to much history to cover so you have to make choices.
Uhm... but that's quite a difference. Obviously, yeah, you can not possibly cover everything. But even if the wizards are as secluded as they picture them sometimes they can hardly be totally unaware of their surroundings. And even if Grindelwald was somewhat interwoven with with the Axis that doesn't cover a huge chunk of other history. Okay, different countries have vastly different schedules for history classes but aren't their bits and pieces you would want a person to know about that lives on this planet, especially if they have possibly the power to rule the world?



5. They HAVE chemistry. What do you think POTIONS is?
I'm not sure what your chemistry classes looked like but mine certainly didn't handle felix felicis... and I'm sure noone in Potions ever heard the word reduction or oxidation reactions...


6. Broomstick riding isn't a replacement for PE, it is a first-year only class and may or may not be the singular lesson mentioned in the book or several over the course of months, but certainly not after that
Which still doesn't cover the PE classes, except the aforementioned running away from deadly stuff.



Regarding the child pregnancy... I guess you can give people the benefit of the doubt they wouldn't all be stupid enough to get themselves pregnant just because there aren't constantly teachers checking on them. Or maybe there are just too many ghosts around and they won't fin any peace and quiet anywhere.

[warty goblin]

Hogwarts is a terrible school for producing well educated students by muggle standards. However there's no indication it's trying to produce well educated students in the muggle sense; it produces wizards who can do magic. And lo, its graduating classes can do magic, many of them with considerable aptitude. Muggle history has essentially zero bearing on the average wizard's magic-working ability, so why teach it? Ditto science, logic, etc. Hogwarts teaches witchcraft and wizardry, so that's what its pupils learn, because those are they skills they actually need in the society they will live in. Even interacting with muggles in any but the most transient manner is something that most wizards can avoid the vast majority of the time, so it makes sense that muggle studies is elective. The classes that are required- potions, transfiguration, charms, DADA - are highly relevant to the pupils' ability to perform core magical functions.

[tomandtish]

Yeah Hogwarts is a lousy school because apparently there are only a dozen teachers to supervise several hundred students.

400 / 12 = 33 1/3. Hate to say, but there are plenty of places where that's a normal teacher/student ratio. It was mine for all of my elementary/high school career (several years where we had an even bigger one).

Let's see staff and other notables at Hogwarts (named persons who held the position during the series are noted):

Ancient Runes - Babbling, Bathsheba

History of Magic - Binns, Cuthbert

Muggle Studies - Burbage, Charity; Carrow, Alecto

Defence Against the Dark Arts - Carrow, Amycus; Lockhart, Gilderoy; Lupin, Remus; Moody, Alastor "Mad-Eye"**; Quirrell, Quirenus; Snape, Severus; Umbridge, Dolores Jane

Divination - Trelawney, Sibyll; Firenze

Charms - Flitwick, Filius

Care of Magical Creatures - Grubbly-Plank, Wilhelmina; Hagrid, Rubeus; Kettleburn, Silvanus

Transfiguration - McGonagall, Minerva)

Astronomy - Sinistra, Aurora

Potions - Snape, Severus; Slughorn, Horace
Herbology - Sprout, Pomona

Arithmancy - Vector, Septima

Music - ? (Music is mentioned in book 1, but unknown who teaches it).

Headmaster - Dumbledore, Albus ; Umbridge, Dolores Jane; Snape, Severus

Keeper of the Keys and Grounds - Hagrid, Rubeus *

caretaker - Filch, Argus

Flying teacher - Hooch, Madam

Librarian - Pince, Irma

School nurse - Pomfrey, Poppy


So there are 18 positions

Ghosts: The Bloody Baron, The Fat Friar, The Grey Lady, Nearly Headless Nick

You also have house elves and portraits to assist, as well as prefects (2 per house) and the Head Boy and Girl.

So arguably 32 positions to run (or help run) things.

If you take the movies and the Potterverse website, you can add:

Alchemy (Sixth and seventh years, only if sufficient demand)
Ancient Studies
Art
Earth Magic
Muggle Art
Muggle Music
Ghoul Studies
Magical Theory
Xylomancy
Frog Choir
Hogwarts orchestra

Note: There can be some duplication, Hagrid does have two jobs at once, and I left out the Deputy Head, because everyone who has the job is holding a teaching position at the same time. Still, it's a lot more than 12.

Of course, it may be more than 400 students as well. There's a good analysis of the student population (and some of teachers as well) here (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Muggles%27_Guide_to_Harry_Potter/Places/Hogwarts_School_of_Witchcraft_and_Wizardry) that shows that the student population is more like 800, and that you either accept some obvious number contradictions or decide that there are teachers you never see (even in core subjects).

So the ratio is 18/1 (if you take the 600 number) to 31.5/1 (if you take the 1000 number) not counting the house elves and portraits.

[snoopy13a]

Logically, Hogwarts would teach English composition and literature. It is important for wizards to learn how to write, and many wizards probably put an emphasis on learning how to appreciate poetry and literature. As for learning languages as a second language, perhaps Ministry people are trained on the job or they just use magic to translate?

However, I believe Rowling thought "Muggle" classes would be a little mundane for her original audience. What ten-year-old wants to read about young-wizard Harry Potter leaning poetry rhyme schemes?

[LordChaos13]

The ratio is fine for inside the classrooms
But boarding schools, especially isolated ones, need a higher ratio for patrolling
And a giant castle filled with non-euclidian geometry and secret passages needs even more.

Granted the ghosts probably help with that but they have no legit authority

[Soras Teva Gee]

Given that wizards don't study biology at Hogwarts and don't have any kind of sex ed class, are we entirely sure they even know that's likely to be an issue? :smallwink:


So human biology jut doesn't function if you don't know about it then? Riiiight.

We know the teens there are not asexual because they pursue romance. Filter out that willful kid sanitizing and that means... well there you go.

It defies reason that somehow Hogwarts isn't as full of sex as your typical high-school. Unless wizards at all have some common potion/charm/etc to simply void the issue then they likely believe a lot of outdated superstitions or total nonsense like that gravity will stop it in certain positions. Or simply low efficiency methods like the rhythm and pull-out methods. Which is a recipe for a major problem.

I figure it most likely there's some ridiculously simple prevention magic. A Wizard Witch did it.

[Tiki Snakes]

So human biology jut doesn't function if you don't know about it then? Riiiight.

We know the teens there are not asexual because they pursue romance. Filter out that willful kid sanitizing and that means... well there you go.

It defies reason that somehow Hogwarts isn't as full of sex as your typical high-school. Unless wizards at all have some common potion/charm/etc to simply void the issue then they likely believe a lot of outdated superstitions or total nonsense like that gravity will stop it in certain positions. Or simply low efficiency methods like the rhythm and pull-out methods. Which is a recipe for a major problem.

I figure it most likely there's some ridiculously simple prevention magic. A Wizard Witch did it.

Oh, it functions all right. But if your entire population for hundreds of years, including all of the teachers, never actually went through with basic sex ed, let alone biology, they're going to have a pretty hazy view on both the workings of the thing and the issues themselves as well. So it follows to my mind that the very idea of contraceptives is probably a bit advanced for Wizarding Britain, outside of careful muggle-born girls perhaps and the occaisional vague 18th century British approach to prophylactics. At best.

And given the way Wizarding Society works, I can't help but feel that a lot of people falling foul of the poorly-understood consequences of all this "Youthful Tom-foolery" would simply end up being quietly withdrawn from Hogwarts.

[snoopy13a]

So human biology jut doesn't function if you don't know about it then? Riiiight.

We know the teens there are not asexual because they pursue romance. Filter out that willful kid sanitizing and that means... well there you go.

It defies reason that somehow Hogwarts isn't as full of sex as your typical high-school. Unless wizards at all have some common potion/charm/etc to simply void the issue then they likely believe a lot of outdated superstitions or total nonsense like that gravity will stop it in certain positions. Or simply low efficiency methods like the rhythm and pull-out methods. Which is a recipe for a major problem.

I figure it most likely there's some ridiculously simple prevention magic. A Wizard Witch did it.

It's just an issue that Rowling didn't want to bring up in children's books. Rowling, herself, isn't exactly naive to high school romantic behavior, see The Casual Vacancy, for example.

[LordChaos13]

If its even possible to be withdrawn

Look at the hounding teh dursley's got and Hagrid was all "Nope dont care your the legal guardian, Imma take him to school"

[Mando Knight]

If its even possible to be withdrawn

Look at the hounding teh dursley's got and Hagrid was all "Nope dont care your the legal guardian, Imma take him to school"

To be fair, even Hogwarts School of Irresponsible Free Range Children was an improvement over the Dursleys.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And given the way Wizarding Society works, I can't help but feel that a lot of people falling foul of the poorly-understood consequences of all this "Youthful Tom-foolery" would simply end up being quietly withdrawn from Hogwarts.

Ahh so you think they DO have a lot of it going on and are just being all Victorian Hush-Hush about it.

Gotcha'.

[snoopy13a]

If its even possible to be withdrawn

Look at the hounding teh dursley's got and Hagrid was all "Nope dont care your the legal guardian, Imma take him to school"

Hagrid and Dumbledore exceeded their authority there--because it concerned Harry Potter. Hogwarts parents have the option of not sending their child to the school. Do you think Hagrid would have dragged Hermoine Granger off to Hogwarts if her parents refused?

[The Rose Dragon]

Do you think Hagrid would have dragged Hermoine Granger off to Hogwarts if her parents refused?

Considering they were muggles who had no way of teaching her how to use her powers and how to be responsible about them, yes. Now the Weasleys, I might see being left alone, since their parents are actually capable wizards.

[Tiki Snakes]

Ahh so you think they DO have a lot of it going on and are just being all Victorian Hush-Hush about it.

Gotcha'.

Somewhere between that and total ignorance of the subject, yes. :smallsmile:


EDIT - Don't parents start explicitely withdrawing their kids from the school later in the series? Possibly around the kind of time Dumbledor starts getting in trouble or something? I forget.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Somewhere between that and total ignorance of the subject, yes. :smallsmile:


Total ignorance is a rather aggressively stupid idea since it can not change it happening so I'm back to not quite understanding your position.

Children do not come from or vanish into nothing.

As such at a minimum the witch mother must know, unless she conceals the pregnancy then abandons the child to muggle society or kills the child someone else must know. And unless somehow all relevant young teenage witches do this spontaneously without talking about this there cannot be total ignorance. Even say cutting off relationships with your family and friends would just create a lot of single mother-ed children with no other family.

Not knowing about it is rather less likely then teenagers somehow not having sex or biology magically not functioning until they all get married late. And those options may actually be so from a meta-perspective for IRL reasons. Unlikely as they are. If these aren't the case... then there's some societal resolution that is generally known however it may be treated.

[Tiki Snakes]

Total Ignorance would stretch credulity, sure.
I'm saying that they might be at a vaguely victorian level of understanding and attitudes, but might also be less clued up than the Victorians, considering how aggressively they avoid all non-magical learning.

[warty goblin]

Total Ignorance would stretch credulity, sure.
I'm saying that they might be at a vaguely victorian level of understanding and attitudes, but might also be less clued up than the Victorians, considering how aggressively they avoid all non-magical learning.

You don't need sex ed to be able to have sex. It's pretty much what multicellular life is for after all; and kinda comes hardwired. I mean nobody's out there with a chalkboard explaining to the chickens that when a rooster loves a hen very much, and has beaten the stuffing out of every other male in vicinity...

[Tiki Snakes]

Which is exactly the problem. Because everyone is capable of discovering that bit by itself. But they never study the subject, so they have only best guess and old wives tales as to how it works and what can be done about it.

So things like all those wild school-yard rumours of what can happen, of what you can do to prevent complications, etc, all of them are basically unopposed and it's quite likely the Teachers are at best vaguely aware of any larger social trends or issues relating to the subject, so I'd be surprised if they took more than cursory steps to prevent hijinks. (Rather than say, providing advice and/or help to people who find themselves in Situations because of it, etc.)

Essentially, in Wizarding society Puberty is likely to be just as Occult and full of danger as so much else at hogwarts. If you're really lucky, whatever STD's are floating around are magical in nature, because otherwise the chances of the school nurse knowing much about it are pretty remote.

[Tavar]

Also, I'd point out that we see an extremely abreviated view of Hogwarts school life. I mean, we see, what, about 6 or so class room sessions per book? And often skip entire classes? And we know that their are additional classes that can be offered(for instance, apparition classes). It's not impossible that Sex Ed was covered in something like that, and JK didn't cover it in the text.



Essentially, in Wizarding society Puberty is likely to be just as Occult and full of danger as so much else at hogwarts. If you're really lucky, whatever STD's are floating around are magical in nature, because otherwise the chances of the school nurse knowing much about it are pretty remote.
Source on this? Why wouldn't the nurse know about diseases?

[Giggling Ghast]

Is Hogwarts a bad school? Hmmm ....

Invokus Mysterius Scientus Mantrus! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

(Yes, I know that is the most badly-mangled Latin ever.)

[warty goblin]

Which is exactly the problem. Because everyone is capable of discovering that bit by itself. But they never study the subject, so they have only best guess and old wives tales as to how it works and what can be done about it.


I have no idea how exactly this is a problem. It's an aspect of the story, because Rowling didn't want to write about teen sex, so she didn't.

[Tiki Snakes]

Also, I'd point out that we see an extremely abreviated view of Hogwarts school life. I mean, we see, what, about 6 or so class room sessions per book? And often skip entire classes? And we know that their are additional classes that can be offered(for instance, apparition classes). It's not impossible that Sex Ed was covered in something like that, and JK didn't cover it in the text.


Source on this? Why wouldn't the nurse know about diseases?

Anything from the 50's or onwards is basically science fiction to Wizarding Britain.

I'd be astonished if a nurse from a society who views an automobile as a strange and slightly worrying curiosity knew the first thing about how to test for Chlamydia, or what the difference between HIV and AIDS is.

The irony is, of course, that if they put their mind to it, they could probably cure most of those out of hand with little research. But the Wizarding world has decided instead on a course of almost total isolation and hoarding of secrets.

And sometimes I get the impression that, taken to it's logical conclusion (rather than worrying about what Rowling may have intended), the stilted and inward-looking kind of syllabus at Hogwarts and similar magical schools makes perfect sense as a tool to keep Wizards focused on this kind of cultish isolationism. :smallsmile:


I have no idea how exactly this is a problem. It's an aspect of the story, because Rowling didn't want to write about teen sex, so she didn't.

I wouldn't call it a problem, as much as it is an interesting emergent quirk of the way the world is built in her stories. Wizards do not study X kind of thing, therefore Y kind of consequence might be an issue.

It's an interesting thought exercise, nothing more. (Because obviously the canon is that of course it's not even remotely an issue.)

[SmartAlec]

Speaking of deathtraps.

Friends of mine wondered how it was that Harry and company manage to keep the same room and beds for six years in a school with such a massive number of students; look at the size of the great hall in the movies! To house them all, each student common room and dorm must have been the size of a hotel, and even then, keeping the same room assignments year after year would have been a logistical impossibility.

The only answer we could come up with was attrition, with Hogwarts students having something close to a 40-50% death rate each year. Anyone who survives the year keeps the same bedroom. Those that don't survive, well... all memory of them is wiped from the minds of the world. This is not some grand cover-up - for it to have continued for so long, it's got to be the accepted cost of educating wizards.

This is why, among other things, it's not remembered or recorded who Moaning Myrtle was in life, and also how the wizard population has remained more or less stable worldwide despite a predilection for large families.

[warty goblin]

Keeping the same room assignments seems pretty easy. You need seven dorms for each house. You get a dorm when you arrive, and stay in that dorm for seven years. When you leave, it becomes the new first year dorm. As long as the attrition rate is small, and the incoming class sizes are fairly consistent, it should work like a charm.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Remember the Tents the Weasley had for the Quidditch world cup? Making things bigger on the inside is no trouble for wizards (New head cannon, the Doctor inspired that spell in the time of the founders!)

[Agrippa]

To me part of the problem is a general lack of good role models for one house in particular. See, for the longest time Slytherin House has been a breeding ground for racist jerks and terrorists. Yet one of its stated traits is ambition, which in my opinion is typically noble. Yet there are few from Slytherin House who showcase much in the way of ambition. So we need to look outside Slytherin House, and in fact outside the wizarding community for a bold new Slytherin head. I propose Harvey Specter. Instead of growing up to be petty minded bigiots we can expect a good chunk of Slytherin House wanting to grow up to become lawyers instead.

[Finlam]

I have no idea how exactly this is a problem. It's an aspect of the story, because Rowling didn't want to write about teen sex, so she didn't.

My memory might be off, but I thought the subject was touched on: in the book with the wizard's cup, isn't there a scene where Harry sees the girl that he's hot for and then realizes that she's going for a tussle in the bushes with someone?

[Tavar]

Anything from the 50's or onwards is basically science fiction to Wizarding Britain.

I'd be astonished if a nurse from a society who views an automobile as a strange and slightly worrying curiosity knew the first thing about how to test for Chlamydia, or what the difference between HIV and AIDS is.

The irony is, of course, that if they put their mind to it, they could probably cure most of those out of hand with little research. But the Wizarding world has decided instead on a course of almost total isolation and hoarding of secrets.

I think you're underselling the Wizarding world pretty badly with that example. I mean, they have trains, a car isn't that out of bounds. Moreover, you're saying they have no knowledge of diseases, which I think is a bit suspect. Now, they likely don't treat/discover the diseases in the same way, but they probably have methods that work.



This is why, among other things, it's not remembered or recorded who Moaning Myrtle was in life, and also how the wizard population has remained more or less stable worldwide despite a predilection for large families.
Not everyone seems to have big families: it seems they're more interconnected than big in the traditional sense.

But you're also forgetting that the Wizarding world had a large war in WW2, and more importantly a rather large war 10 years previous to the book. And this is with a much smaller population. In my mind, Hogwarts wasn't overcrowded: it was under, due to a shrunken population.

[Lamech]

My head cannon is that intelligent wizards use those super-hiding spell, spells to generate extra-dimensional space and so forth and hide. Forever. Every time some big dark lord pops up. Or they ticked off the local government, or they just got board with dealing with the outside world. They and their friends form a network that doesn't need to put up with crap. Or they decide to create an extradimensional colony. Or a commune or whatever.

But from an evolutionary perspective this means removal from the gene pool. Worse intelligent friends, or neighbors or even nice strangers will invite you into their nice safe place that is voldemort proofed. Therefore wizard's who have managed to remain on Earth have evolved a stupidity inducing aura. If wizards seem to run things terribly its because they do. Otherwise, they get kicked out of the gene pool.

But yes Hogwarts it terrible.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To me part of the problem is a general lack of good role models for one house in particular. See, for the longest time Slytherin House has been a breeding ground for racist jerks and terrorists. Yet one of its stated traits is ambition, which in my opinion is typically noble. Yet there are few from Slytherin House who showcase much in the way of ambition. So we need to look outside Slytherin House, and in fact outside the wizarding community for a bold new Slytherin head. I propose Harvey Specter. Instead of growing up to be petty minded bigiots we can expect a good chunk of Slytherin House wanting to grow up to become lawyers instead.

Is this a reference to something? It feel like a reference....


My memory might be off, but I thought the subject was touched on: in the book with the wizard's cup, isn't there a scene where Harry sees the girl that he's hot for and then realizes that she's going for a tussle in the bushes with someone?

While it is entirely plausible it was teen sex, my child mind thought they were just going to kiss and I'll stand by it till my dying breath.... my childhood has been compromised enough by the internet.

[mystic1110]

Lack of Economics? That would be an interesting class - economics in a world with infinite supply, little demand, ethics between wizard economy and muggle economy. Law class dealing with the rules of Goblin contracts and banking. Reasons why there is no arbitrage or Cross trading between muggles and wizards. And the morals of keeping a low profile and not competing in the much more expansive muggle economy.

[Coidzor]

They don't learn math or basic life skills past 5th grade, right? If they were raised within muggle society at all, that is. They seem to somehow be taught how to read and write before they arrive to Hogwarts and some basic knowledge of numbers if not anything more complicated than addition/subtraction and maybe multiplication/division.

Granted, if they're capable of learning any magic they can master basic spells which obviate some or all of the things one would have to know how to do for one's self otherwise. Though it does seem to encourage the sort of lazy thinking you get when children never learn how to do math for themselves but only to use a calculator for everything, only, on a grand scale.

Which explains something about Wizarding Culture as well and what Gandalf mentioned about there being very few wizards and witches who are truly wise, or however he phrased it.


While it is entirely plausible it was teen sex, my child mind thought they were just going to kiss and I'll stand by it till my dying breath.... my childhood has been compromised enough by the internet.

I believe they were adjusting their clothing. So, yeah, implied sex. I was already a teen by the time that rolled around and I had discovered sex by the time I was Harry's age in the first book, so I'm not sure what all this is about childhood being compromised. I just went "Oh, that's neat, I'd always wondered how the genetic material was supposed to get from the male and the female in order to combine to form a zygote," and went back to reading animorphs and goosebumps. Which I still hold against my dad because he had Terry Pratchett and he knew I was advanced enough to read them as an 8 year old, but he kept them from me until I was 14. T_T

:smallconfused: Childhood isn't ruined because you know where babies come from, or else you'd have to say that any child who grew up around livestock or dogbreeding was horribly abused and scarred by their parents being so negligent as to have had children on a farm.

Also....The fact that she isn't a virgin and she had sex with, as I recall, Cedric Diggory is a big clue that Harry won't end up with her, even laying her ethnicity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFPWwx96Kew)aside for a moment. Heroes don't get sloppy seconds, especially not from people who were their rival, even if the rivalry was mostly in Harry's head and in the way Harry was being bullied and mistreated by the rest of the school because British Boarding Schools are hell.

[Agrippa]

Is this a reference to something? It feel like a reference....

This is Harvey Specter (http://suits.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Specter).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Total Ignorance would stretch credulity, sure.
I'm saying that they might be at a vaguely victorian level of understanding and attitudes, but might also be less clued up than the Victorians, considering how aggressively they avoid all non-magical learning.

The pop-culture version of Victorian is seriously rock bottom for still having a plausible society of humans. Least with normal conception methods. And it only even vaguely holds up because the big joke is that they just lie about it not that people don't really know somehow know what sex actually does. That's why taboos about it come up, because the activity and its consequences are universal to the proverbial human conditions

We want to get into crazy side beliefs and what not on the whys and hows sure knock yourself out. Maybe they think you can still be like Gilgamesh and be 2/3rds something by having multiple fathers contribute, or some such. Maybe they still believe in hysteria. Medical science is terrifyingly recent and all.

That's all very different to from not understanding what fathers and mothers are.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They don't learn math or basic life skills past 5th grade, right? If they were raised within muggle society at all, that is. They seem to somehow be taught how to read and write before they arrive to Hogwarts and some basic knowledge of numbers if not anything more complicated than addition/subtraction and maybe multiplication/division.

Granted, if they're capable of learning any magic they can master basic spells which obviate some or all of the things one would have to know how to do for one's self otherwise. Though it does seem to encourage the sort of lazy thinking you get when children never learn how to do math for themselves but only to use a calculator for everything, only, on a grand scale.

Which explains something about Wizarding Culture as well and what Gandalf mentioned about there being very few wizards and witches who are truly wise, or however he phrased it.



I believe they were adjusting their clothing. So, yeah, implied sex. I was already a teen by the time that rolled around and I had discovered sex by the time I was Harry's age in the first book, so I'm not sure what all this is about childhood being compromised. I just went "Oh, that's neat, I'd always wondered how the genetic material was supposed to get from the male and the female in order to combine to form a zygote," and went back to reading animorphs and goosebumps. Which I still hold against my dad because he had Terry Pratchett and he knew I was advanced enough to read them as an 8 year old, but he kept them from me until I was 14. T_T

:smallconfused: Childhood isn't ruined because you know where babies come from, or else you'd have to say that any child who grew up around livestock or dogbreeding was horribly abused and scarred by their parents being so negligent as to have had children on a farm.

Also....The fact that she isn't a virgin and she had sex with, as I recall, Cedric Diggory is a big clue that Harry won't end up with her, even laying her ethnicity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFPWwx96Kew)aside for a moment. Heroes don't get sloppy seconds, especially not from people who were their rival, even if the rivalry was mostly in Harry's head and in the way Harry was being bullied and mistreated by the rest of the school because British Boarding Schools are hell.

I was 7-8 ish years old when I first read the book, so forgive me if I wasn't as savy to the facts of life and the part about my childhood and stuff was somewhat of a joke.

[warty goblin]

:smallconfused: Childhood isn't ruined because you know where babies come from, or else you'd have to say that any child who grew up around livestock or dogbreeding was horribly abused and scarred by their parents being so negligent as to have had children on a farm.


Although the way some folks react when you explain what exactly growing up around animals involves, you'd think it did. Personally I think it was a great benefit. I mean most kids never had a dead rat and a string to swing it with, the poor deprived things.

[Tiki Snakes]

The pop-culture version of Victorian is seriously rock bottom for still having a plausible society of humans. Least with normal conception methods. And it only even vaguely holds up because the big joke is that they just lie about it not that people don't really know somehow know what sex actually does. That's why taboos about it come up, because the activity and its consequences are universal to the proverbial human conditions

We want to get into crazy side beliefs and what not on the whys and hows sure knock yourself out. Maybe they think you can still be like Gilgamesh and be 2/3rds something by having multiple fathers contribute, or some such. Maybe they still believe in hysteria. Medical science is terrifyingly recent and all.

That's all very different to from not understanding what fathers and mothers are.

Pop Culture Victorian sounds about right, yeah.

[Themrys]

"Yeah Hogwarts is a lousy school because apparently there are only a dozen teachers to supervise several hundred students. That right there is a recipe for, among other things, lots of teenage pregnancies."

What? How do you arrive at that conclusion? You're talking about rape, aren't you?

Because otherwise, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. When girls want to have sex, they're going to have sex, and no number of teachers is going to stop them. (In Hogwarts, girls can go into the boy's dorm anytime they want! Obviously, the founders of Hogwarts were only interested in preventing rape, not sex.)

Teenagers have sex. There is no way to stop them. It has been tried, and never succeeded. Educate them on contraception, however, and the teen pregnancy rates go down. Now, since the books are told from Harry's point of view, we have no way of knowing whether the girls don't get sex ed - maybe McGonagall shows the girls an easy contraception spell on the first days of school.
And I guess they can just cure STDs with some spell, too. It was never mentioned that witches and wizards get muggle diseases, so I guess they're either immune or there's an easy cure.


Regarding the quality of Hogwarts as a school ... it definitely IS a very crappy school for squibs. I mean, Filch could be perfectly happy in muggle society, but he probably couldn't go to muggle school, since no one around him knew how the school system works and all, and so he's now an adult who doesn't fit in in either world.

For witches and wizards, though, it's just fine. It's not as if you need to know all those things we learn in school to lead a happy life.
It is defined by society, what knowledge is worth knowing. It's not an absolute truth.

If I look at what I learnt in school, and what I actually need for life, not just for my job ... I forgot almost everything I don't need for my job. (Sure, I do know some things about history, and basic physics and biology and stuff ... but I only need that to look clever, no to survive or be happy.)
And witches and wizards apparently only learn their job skills when they have choosen a job. And all job skills involve magic, so learning about magic is a good start.

It's not as if you really have to have read classic literature or have to know how the human heart works, or have to be forced to run around for two hours a week.


Edit: I think the biggest problem is foreign languages. But I guess that has to do with Hogwarts being an English school, and everyone speaks English, so they never bother to learn foreign languages ... wait ... in the Middle Ages, everyone spoke French. Or Latin. Now that doesn't make a lot of sense. Wizard society is so backwards they definitely still should learn French and Latin. Wizard society would view that as something necessary to, well, look intelligent. (Unless they never spoke French or Latin in the first place, but since the spells are in Latin, I am confident they did speak Latin over a very long period of time ...)

[Tavar]

Pop Culture Victorian sounds about right, yeah.

Because lord forbid we can't let the Wizards have a brain, now can we.


Seriously, yes, there are certainly things they don't focus on, things they view as "Muggle stuff", but those are things that don't effect them. Normal!Cars/Airplanes? Brooms, Flue, Apparition, Night Buss. Why would they need the other stuff?

[Coidzor]

So is it a good school? Yeah, its a good trade school. Its a place you go to learn magic and decide what field you want to work in. Its not meant to be general education that covers everything, its supposed to teach you about magic and its related fields.

Which gets into whether it's really appropriate for tradeschool to begin at the age of 11, especially taking into account the different life span of magic-users. It appears that we definitely disagree about giving people a grounding in some sense and how to be people before thrusting them out the door to be cogs in the great machine of society. But what'cha gonna do?

Also, whether you want people with the ability to alter the world around them to really be ignorant of the potential effects they can have on the world beyond the simple fact that the ministry will ice you or give you to the soul-eating boogeymen if you step out of line and aren't Dark Lord level.


Although the way some folks react when you explain what exactly growing up around animals involves, you'd think it did. Personally I think it was a great benefit. I mean most kids never had a dead rat and a string to swing it with, the poor deprived things.

Yeah, the dead rats I got were never in good enough condition to make into a rat flail. :smallfrown: So jelly!

Reproductive Health:
Yeah Hogwarts is a lousy school because apparently there are only a dozen teachers to supervise several hundred students. That right there is a recipe for, among other things, lots of teenage pregnancies.

At least there the fact that they can lay spells over Hogwarts combined with Fetus Deletus probably isn't too much of a concern, really. Or maybe magic-users have a very low fertility in that world, which is why the Weasleys having 7 children over a lifespan that naturally reaches into the 100s is scandalous.


Definitely from fanon, but my head canon is that House Elfs slip some birth control magic into all the students meals.

I'd have just had it be at the same level of magical field around Hogwarts as keeps anyone but the Headmaster from apparating. Though it does strike me as a bit more amusing to think that their food is laced with anti-puberty/fertility potion or magical goblin-dust of sterility.


Regarding the child pregnancy... I guess you can give people the benefit of the doubt they wouldn't all be stupid enough to get themselves pregnant just because there aren't constantly teachers checking on them. Or maybe there are just too many ghosts around and they won't fin any peace and quiet anywhere.

*looks at the real world* Uh. Yeah. No. That's too much suspension of disbelief for me. Especially when you look at the figures of how actually having sex ed has an impact on the teen pregnancy rate versus places where they don't have sex ed or they have anti-sex ed.

And remember, wizards are, on the whole, less wise than muggles. They're more foolish than we are. That's kind of terrifying if you let that sink in.


Total Ignorance would stretch credulity, sure.
I'm saying that they might be at a vaguely victorian level of understanding and attitudes, but might also be less clued up than the Victorians, considering how aggressively they avoid all non-magical learning.

Then why bring it up as if it were a legitimate argument? It's an argument from absurdity. Even for fanon it's rather bad form, since it seems, well, boring as well as lacking in robustness, since it can be picked apart like this. Without some force telling them otherwise, people are going to have some understanding that sex leads to babies. Babies are kind of distracting for students to have, therefore it's something to be avoided. We have magic and can probably just make the lot of them sterile while they're here so we don't have to think about it any further. :smallconfused:


Is Hogwarts a bad school? Hmmm ....

Invokus Mysterius Scientus Mantrus! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

(Yes, I know that is the most badly-mangled Latin ever.)

The Rifftrax for the Harry Potter movies are pretty hilarious and you should all check them out. Just putting that out there.


To me part of the problem is a general lack of good role models for one house in particular. See, for the longest time Slytherin House has been a breeding ground for racist jerks and terrorists. Yet one of its stated traits is ambition, which in my opinion is typically noble. Yet there are few from Slytherin House who showcase much in the way of ambition. So we need to look outside Slytherin House, and in fact outside the wizarding community for a bold new Slytherin head. I propose Harvey Specter. Instead of growing up to be petty minded bigiots we can expect a good chunk of Slytherin House wanting to grow up to become lawyers instead.

But would that really be an improvement? :smallamused:

[Themrys]

Which gets into whether it's really appropriate for tradeschool to begin at the age of 11, especially taking into account the different life span of magic-users. It appears that we definitely disagree about giving people a grounding in some sense and how to be people before thrusting them out the door to be cogs in the great machine of society. But what'cha gonna do?

Also, whether you want people with the ability to alter the world around them to really be ignorant of the potential effects they can have on the world beyond the simple fact that the ministry will ice you or give you to the soul-eating boogeymen if you step out of line and aren't Dark Lord level.


Muggles do know exactly what effect atom bombs or accidents in nuclear plants have on the environment.

Does it stop them? No, it doesn't. Not at all. Actually, if we still thought radioactivity was just a nice thing to use for seeing whether a bone is broken, the world might be better off.

So, what do you think should young witches and wizards learn? I guess they learn about the immediate effects of their actions in the respective subjects - for example, that an explosion might happen if the mess up a potion.


Learning a lot of things you don't actually need and reading lots of literature might make you wiser. However, if you're the type of person who is interested in that stuff, chances are you're going to read a lot anyway. And if you're not interested in becoming wiser, education will have not much of an effect.

What Hogwarts does is to place students from all backgrounds in an environment where they can read lots of books, if they are so inclined. As first year students aren't even allowed to go away from school in the weekends, I guess many of them do a lot of reading. So, they might actually get an education in their free time.

[Finn Solomon]

I think Hogwarts is an alright trade school, as someone mentioned. Focused solely on magic and not much else.

Now for me the real problem is the wizarding government and economy. Just to scratch the surface, we don't seem to see any kind of elections for public office, or corporations beyond small start-ups (like Weasley's Wizard Wheezes). Which would imply that the Ministry is practically the only source of employment, and keeping in mind the whole lack of democracy thing...

[Coidzor]

Muggles do know exactly what effect atom bombs or accidents in nuclear plants have on the environment.

Does it stop them? No, it doesn't. Not at all. Actually, if we still thought radioactivity was just a nice thing to use for seeing whether a bone is broken, the world might be better off.

My apologies for my miscommunication. What did you take away from that which you are replying to here? :smallconfused:


Learning a lot of things you don't actually need and reading lots of literature might make you wiser. However, if you're the type of person who is interested in that stuff, chances are you're going to read a lot anyway. And if you're not interested in becoming wiser, education will have not much of an effect.

What Hogwarts does is to place students from all backgrounds in an environment where they can read lots of books, if they are so inclined. As first year students aren't even allowed to go away from school in the weekends, I guess many of them do a lot of reading. So, they might actually get an education in their free time.

I view trying as better than neglecting to try, even if it is salutary neglect and the books they have access to can fulfill that function, which given the volume of books seems likely. You seem to believe that the only reason one learns is to have access to that knowledge rather than learning how to learn and exercising critical thinking if I understand your previous post correctly. I disagree with the notion that one only learns physics, for instance, in order to be able to do physics problems or use physics in one's further studies or career. I believe that part of learning is about expanding the capabilities of the mind and the horizons of a developing human's imagination, creativity, and mental acumen.

I suppose one could sum up my perspective on it as "education is not merely the accumulation of facts but building a better person than would otherwise exist without the education."

[Agrippa]

But would that really be an improvement? :smallamused:

Having them all be mentored by Marcellus Wallace or Johnny "The Gentleman" Marcone would be improvements or having Voldemort and his Deatheaters as rolemodels. Having Harvey Specter (http://suits.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Specter) or Stanton Infeld (http://www.tntdrama.com/series/franklinandbash/display/?contentId=93349) mentoring and heading Slytherin House would be a godsend. Better to grow up like either of those two than to become like Voldemort/Tom Riddle or Belatrix Lestrange.

[Mauve Shirt]

Love Harry Potter, but I can say yes, yes definitely. Hogwarts is one of the worst schools in fiction.

[LordChaos13]

Isnt Bellatrix canonically Ravenclaw?

And yeah Slytherin needs a good collective Gibbsmack to get back to being the Hufflepuffs (Hardworking, clearly talented but everyone, even from beyond the 4th wall, ignores and thinks are duffers. I can see no way a house like that ISNT secretly running the country except if it's multiple Hufflefactions vying for competition)

On the subject of sex: You do realize that the Victorian attitudes on sex were newfangled ideas due mostly to politics right? Heck Polygamy was around quite a lot before that whole era without being decried. Because god-forbid a man loves two women equally or viceversa.
Victorian times was also a transitional period, with a lot of new inventions so looking to that to conjure cultural values outside stated claims isnt really the best comparison.


@Coidzor: Im fairly sure they learn the How and Why of magic too. Physics class just gets to turn a Rat Pink sometimes, it still serves the same purpose of "Broaden minds and horizons" to the same extent
While the works of Beedle the Bard (who seems to be Magic!Brothers Grimm) might not be studied in class Im sure they still learn how to learn and excercizing critical thinking

[Themrys]

I suppose one could sum up my perspective on it as "education is not merely the accumulation of facts but building a better person than would otherwise exist without the education."


You seem to think that this is what happens in muggle schools. My opinion is that, no, it doesn't necessarily, and if it does happen, it's due to a good teacher, not because the school system in general leads to that.

Good teachers, on the other hand, are something that can happen at Hogwarts, too, if maybe less likely due to the relative lack of teachers.


How do you know that learning about potions and herbs and wizard history doesn't have the beneficial side effects you think physics has?

[Agrippa]

No LordChaos13, Bellatrix is canonically Slytherin.

[Coidzor]

You seem to think that this is what happens in muggle schools. My opinion is that, no, it doesn't necessarily, and if it does happen, it's due to a good teacher, not because the school system in general leads to that.

No, I think that it is the goal of schooling when it is not taken over and crowded out by something else, not that it is always achieved.


How do you know that learning about potions and herbs and wizard history doesn't have the beneficial side effects you think physics has?

The general stupidity of wizards, mostly. Also the argument that it is merely a trade school and not attempting to give a full education, so those things I mentioned aren't even a consideration. There's also your argument that it would happen solely through their access to the library and boredom driving them to read, but that might be more us talking past each other than the point you meant to make.


Good teachers, on the other hand, are something that can happen at Hogwarts, too, if maybe less likely due to the relative lack of teachers.

I agree with you there in principle, I just don't feel we've seen any evidence of them though, with the possible exception of Flitwick with a decided question mark next to him in the register.


Having them all be mentored by Marcellus Wallace or Johnny "The Gentleman" Marcone would be improvements or having Voldemort and his Deatheaters as rolemodels. Having Harvey Specter (http://suits.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Specter) or Stanton Infeld (http://www.tntdrama.com/series/franklinandbash/display/?contentId=93349) mentoring and heading Slytherin House would be a godsend. Better to grow up like either of those two than to become like Voldemort/Tom Riddle or Belatrix Lestrange.

OK, you got me. XD

[Jayngfet]

So human biology jut doesn't function if you don't know about it then? Riiiight.

We know the teens there are not asexual because they pursue romance. Filter out that willful kid sanitizing and that means... well there you go.

It defies reason that somehow Hogwarts isn't as full of sex as your typical high-school. Unless wizards at all have some common potion/charm/etc to simply void the issue then they likely believe a lot of outdated superstitions or total nonsense like that gravity will stop it in certain positions. Or simply low efficiency methods like the rhythm and pull-out methods. Which is a recipe for a major problem.

I figure it most likely there's some ridiculously simple prevention magic. A Wizard Witch did it.

Well lets look at it this way: Where exactly are they actually going to do it?

I mean when you sleep with five other people, half the dorms are barred to half the sexes, everything is done in groups anyway, House Elves and Ghosts can just step into the room at literally any time, and there's generally no place you're guaranteed to actually have more than thirty seconds to yourself that has no giant monster trying to eat you.


Hell, that's probably the most horrifying aspect of Hogwarts: The sheer density of it. There's literally no place you can get alone long enough to hear yourself think. Even if you lock the doors and bar the windows that won't stop Nearly Headless Nick from aimlessly wandering in. Even if you haven nothing to do all day and stay in the dorm rooms there'll still be an elf or two checking in and you can't shoo them off at the door, since they don't use doors. I mean even if you found "safe" spots in the Forbidden Forrest then there's at least like three or four sentient races that will likely run across you.

[warty goblin]

Well lets look at it this way: Where exactly are they actually going to do it?

I mean when you sleep with five other people, half the dorms are barred to half the sexes, everything is done in groups anyway, House Elves and Ghosts can just step into the room at literally any time, and there's generally no place you're guaranteed to actually have more than thirty seconds to yourself that has no giant monster trying to eat you.

Sounds not entirely dissimilar to college. And the road to college is paved with used condoms. Just sayin'.

[Coidzor]

Well lets look at it this way: Where exactly are they actually going to do it?

I mean when you sleep with five other people, half the dorms are barred to half the sexes, everything is done in groups anyway, House Elves and Ghosts can just step into the room at literally any time, and there's generally no place you're guaranteed to actually have more than thirty seconds to yourself that has no giant monster trying to eat you.

Hell, that's probably the most horrifying aspect of Hogwarts: The sheer density of it. There's literally no place you can get alone long enough to hear yourself think. Even if you lock the doors and bar the windows that won't stop Nearly Headless Nick from aimlessly wandering in. Even if you haven nothing to do all day and stay in the dorm rooms there'll still be an elf or two checking in and you can't shoo them off at the door, since they don't use doors.

Well, that might result in different sexual mores, but I don't think having a group of a half dozen people is necessarily going to preclude sex altogether. I seem to recall something about groups of young boys exploring their sexuality together, after all, and you occasionally hear rumors that young girls do something similar but more rarely. While I believe "rainbow parties" were a fiction created wholecloth for an artifical media sensation, you can bet your patootie that some kids actually tried it after they heard about it on the news or from their parents having a fit of hysterics.

The heroes seem to be able to manage it occasionally, to my recollection.

I'd wager either the ghosts are actively on patrol for that sort of thing or they've got enough tact to have learned to avoid the places where students nip off to have sex unless they're feeling voyeuristic or Peeves. Certainly most of the ghosts aside from Peeves seem to have demonstrated some memory of human decorum and would generally have the tact not to wander to areas where they would have learned from experience or recollect from their own lives that people nip off to these places to have sex.

And I don't really want to contemplate what Peeves would do aside from it probably causing enough of a stink that it resulted in negative repercussions for him too, so he might even have learned to be discreet in how he torments those he catches.

The house elves don't make themselves known unless the students go looking for them, as far as I recall. So the students can put on all the show for them they'd like and the elves don't seem the type to comment or interrupt or be in a state the wizards can perceive without taking special precautions.

[HamHam]

Counterpoint: The castle is ancient and ever changing, with not just rooms but entire wings that no one really uses anymore. You go wandering around and you are bound to ran across some ancient disused corner.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well lets look at it this way: Where exactly are they actually going to do it?


I believe this has a simple answer:

Anywhere.

If there was not more then sufficient opportunity we wouldn't have cause to complain about Harry and Co being nigh unsupervised and most of the books simply could not happen. Hogwarts is pretty evidently mostly empty and open. Sure someone could happen by but excepting right on the Quad there should be ample places for some private time.

Even magic is hard to argue for creating infallible defenses. Case in point the creation of the Marauder's Map (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder%27s_Map). Oh magic might slow some folks down sure... but teenagers find ways because they are highly motivated and at a creative time in their life. So its not a solution merely an escalation.

And lets not get started on the Room of Requirement AKA the "Come and Go Room" because quite seriously who would create something like that and then hide it if not for mischief related purposes!

I've little personal doubt that all manner of magical goodies and counter-measures exist being smuggled around just to help you snog in private.

[Traab]

I believe they were adjusting their clothing. So, yeah, implied sex.



I read that as a makeout/grope session. Shirts and bras get shifted around a bit during that kind of thing. You dont have to have full on sex for your clothes to be a bit askew.

*EDIT* On the subject of kids having sex all willy nilly everywhere. No. First off, you have the teachers, you have mr filch and mrs norris, you have 4 prefects from each of the 4 houses, so thats another 16 people. You have the head boy and girl for 2 more. You have house elves everywhere, and paintings that can talk, gossip, and report whats going on over virtually every square inch of the place, and you have ghosts, not just the 4 house ghosts either, there are plenty others. You are no more likely to find students having sex at hogwarts than anywhere else in the world, and probably less likely. Do you really think the teachers/elves/ghost/paintings, arent fully aware of every quiet spot for furtive sex? If they have the time to get past a heavy makeout petting session I would be shocked.

Any speculation on birth control, std issues, or rampant sexual intercourse is just that, speculation. There is nothing to back up any likelyhood that the sex is out of control there.

[Jayngfet]

Counterpoint: The castle is ancient and ever changing, with not just rooms but entire wings that no one really uses anymore. You go wandering around and you are bound to ran across some ancient disused corner.

For some reason this always begs the question of why Hogwarts Castle is so huge and empty.

I mean, was it originally made to host more people? Is the magical population somehow dwindling or are other options just getting more popular? There's a werewolf population in the forest, were they somehow involved?

I mean I could see a generation after Voldemort things being empty, but whole wings just having nothing seems like something of a stretch.

[HamHam]

Do you really think the teachers/elves/ghost/paintings, arent fully aware of every quiet spot for furtive sex?

As opposed to all the spots for brewing of illegal potions, running secret para-military clubs, planning and executing various escapades, etc?


For some reason this always begs the question of why Hogwarts Castle is so huge and empty.

I mean, was it originally made to host more people? Is the magical population somehow dwindling or are other options just getting more popular? There's a werewolf population in the forest, were they somehow involved?

I mean I could see a generation after Voldemort things being empty, but whole wings just having nothing seems like something of a stretch.

I wouldn't be surprised if the insular nature of their culture caused a steady population decline, especially compared to what we can surmise was it's glory days in the medieval period.

Also, I imagine teachers, headmasters, etc are always adding to the castle, but rarely bother to remove anything. So it just gets more and more bloated.

[Tavar]

For some reason this always begs the question of why Hogwarts Castle is so huge and empty.

I mean, was it originally made to host more people? Is the magical population somehow dwindling or are other options just getting more popular? There's a werewolf population in the forest, were they somehow involved?

I mean I could see a generation after Voldemort things being empty, but whole wings just having nothing seems like something of a stretch.

Note, that's not what he actually said. He said that they're are sections that aren't being used. Not empty, unused.

Which would make sense if you had a sudden drop in population. Well, 2 sudden drops. Sure, one was back in WW2, but that's only, what, one or two generations between the end of the first war and the start of the second?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Any speculation on birth control, std issues, or rampant sexual intercourse is just that, speculation. There is nothing to back up any likelyhood that the sex is out of control there.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the students are anymore licentious then other teenagers... simply that they are exactly as licentious as other teenagers.

However it also follows the general pattern that the measures that respond to this in the in a modern technological society are much less likely to carry over.

[Knaight]

So human biology jut doesn't function if you don't know about it then? Riiiight.

I actually do know of people (secondhand) that managed to be involved in causing a pregnancy because they didn't know sex caused pregnancies. That information had been deliberately kept from them, as had anything else involving sex, which backfired horribly. It's a thing that can happen in sufficiently insular groups with particular 'values', though the existence of open dating at Hogwarts, along with the lack of flat bans on different gender friends heavily suggests that it isn't the sort of group that this sort of thing happens in.

[Traab]

As opposed to all the spots for brewing of illegal potions, running secret para-military clubs, planning and executing various escapades, etc?



I wouldn't be surprised if the insular nature of their culture caused a steady population decline, especially compared to what we can surmise was it's glory days in the medieval period.

Also, I imagine teachers, headmasters, etc are always adding to the castle, but rarely bother to remove anything. So it just gets more and more bloated.

Yes, they used a girls bathroom populated by moaning myrtle. Thats an EXCELLENT place to bend your girlfriend over the nearest surface. As for the room of requirement, while yeah that could work, especially now that its existence is known about, before the whole DA thing, it was a rumor that even dumbledoore, the guy who had been teaching or leading at the school for something like 50 years or more didnt know about. As for adding to the castle, what? What are you talking about? They dont have construction crews adding onto it, why would they? This is once again nothing but rampant wild guesswork with no foundation to draw on other than a desperate need to prove that despite the 50 or so living authority figures, and the HUNDREDS of nonliving/nonhuman spies, these kids are still managing to go around getting busy with each other on a regular basis.

As for the overall population, they went through two (relative to them) massive wars in 50 years. Entire families were wiped out, and its barely been 10 years since the last war ended, so large portions of the school going unused makes sense. Combine that with how it appears most of the purebloods seem to stick to 1 kids or a couple tops, (barring the weasleys) and you dont see room for much population growth, and what little there is is likely from the muggleborn students.

[Kitten Champion]

For some reason this always begs the question of why Hogwarts Castle is so huge and empty.

I mean, was it originally made to host more people? Is the magical population somehow dwindling or are other options just getting more popular? There's a werewolf population in the forest, were they somehow involved?

I mean I could see a generation after Voldemort things being empty, but whole wings just having nothing seems like something of a stretch.

Well, it was founded by the most influential and powerful wizards and witches of that age, so it's size could be reasonably assumed to be a testament to their vanity. Which is something common in the magical world, at least that's implied, not needing physical labour or materials allows them to dwarf the accomplishments of medieval muggles which they would take some satisfaction in even if its not practical in any sense. The population was probably never that big to begin with, if the Great Hall can support the whole student body and staff.

The magical world seems rather protestant to me.

[HamHam]

As for the room of requirement, while yeah that could work, especially now that its existence is known about, before the whole DA thing, it was a rumor that even dumbledoore, the guy who had been teaching or leading at the school for something like 50 years or more didnt know about..

It's enchanted to appear to anyone who needs it. With whatever they need in it.

So like a heart shaped bed and mirrored ceiling, probably.

[Traab]

It's enchanted to appear to anyone who needs it. With whatever they need in it.

So like a heart shaped bed and mirrored ceiling, probably.

Yeah, if you pace back and forth in front of an unmarked hallway thinking about what you need in an area you wouldnt be expected to hang out in while hoping to sex up your partner. There is a reason the place was only the vaguest of rumors until harry found it.

[John Cribati]

I was 7-8 ish years old when I first read the book, so forgive me if I wasn't as savy to the facts of life and the part about my childhood and stuff was somewhat of a joke.

Funny, I was about that age when I discovered pornography.

As to sex in the castle, Harry has several times reminisced about making out with Ginny in various dark corners. It's human nature that if we want something hard enough, we're stubborn enough to find a way.

Also, Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder + Silencing Charms.
EDIT: not even. Disillusionment Charm. Makes people not notice you’re there. Put a silencing charm with that for good measure and just go to town.

[Themrys]

It's enchanted to appear to anyone who needs it. With whatever they need in it.

So like a heart shaped bed and mirrored ceiling, probably.

Yeah ... also, I don't really believe that only Harry Potter was speshul enough to find that room.

Also, Harry and friends usually need a room where they can do highly illegal things, as opposed to things that are only frowned at.

[John Cribati]

Yeah ... also, I don't really believe that only Harry Potter was speshul enough to find that room.

Far from it. Generations of students have been hiding things in that room.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Funny, I was about that age when I discovered pornography.

As to sex in the castle, Harry has several times reminisced about making out with Ginny in various dark corners. It's human nature that if we want something hard enough, we're stubborn enough to find a way.

Also, Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder + Silencing Charms.
EDIT: not even. Disillusionment Charm. Makes people not notice you’re there. Put a silencing charm with that for good measure and just go to town.

I was a little more sheltered than many people at that age :shrugs: as I said, when I first read it, I didn't think more of that particular issue, and the childhood damaging was a joke.

[Traab]

Funny, I was about that age when I discovered pornography.

As to sex in the castle, Harry has several times reminisced about making out with Ginny in various dark corners. It's human nature that if we want something hard enough, we're stubborn enough to find a way.

Also, Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder + Silencing Charms.
EDIT: not even. Disillusionment Charm. Makes people not notice you’re there. Put a silencing charm with that for good measure and just go to town.

Peruvian instant darkness powder isnt exactly subtle. A disillusionment charm basically gives you a predator effect. And making out does not equal sex.

[LordChaos13]

For some reason this always begs the question of why Hogwarts Castle is so huge and empty.

I mean, was it originally made to host more people? Is the magical population somehow dwindling or are other options just getting more popular? There's a werewolf population in the forest, were they somehow involved?

I mean I could see a generation after Voldemort things being empty, but whole wings just having nothing seems like something of a stretch.

As mentioned by other posters: 2 Dark Lords in rather quick succession
the Dark Lord Grindelwad was deposed around the same time Riddle was at school.
Meaning around 20 years of rebuilding in an aristocratic society where the norm is clearly small numbers of heirs (barring WeasleysExceptions) then ANOTHER war, this time a guerilla war specifically trying to wipe entire bloodlines out and came oh so close to actually winning (saved only by Dues Ex Infantus)
In the Hogwarts seen in the books every child at Hogwarts in 1st year was conceived DURING WARTIME. Neville, Harry and Draco (among many others) where conceived by active participants in said war (Longbottoms where aurors, Potters were in the OOTP, the Malfoys were Inner Circle DE etc.)

There would have been a population boom immediately after the war but that would appear in Ginny's year and below and still not been enough to fill the castle

[John Cribati]

And making out does not equal sex.

That particular comment was in response to the notion that there was absolutely nowhere two like-minded individuals could get some privacy to do the nasty. Given that the phrasing was something along the lines of ‘secluded corner,’ there obviously were.

[warty goblin]

Also, Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder + Silencing Charms.
EDIT: not even. Disillusionment Charm. Makes people not notice you’re there. Put a silencing charm with that for good measure and just go to town.

Unless at least one of the participants has some fairly singular fetishes, that sounds like the worst sex ever. No sound, and it's either literally completely black, or your partner looks like old carpet. I mean that's really desperate for a shag.

[John Cribati]

Unless at least one of the participants has some fairly singular fetishes, that sounds like the worst sex ever. No sound, and it's either literally completely black, or your partner looks like old carpet. I mean that's really desperate for a shag.

We are dealing with teenagers… :smallamused:

[johnbragg]

We are dealing with teenagers… :smallamused:

Indeed.

As for the contraceptives issue, my unreliable memory of unreliable internet articles says that the heart shape itself <3 is taken from the shape of the leaves of a contraceptive plant known to the ancient Romans--and harvested to extinction. http://www.cracked.com/article_19909_6-famous-symbols-that-dont-mean-what-you-think.html So saying "they're centuries behind Muggle science, they'd have no concept of conception or contraception" doesn't hold up.

Also, they have alchemy. In a world where magic works, alchemy is going to work like all get out. In real world history, the most common inventory items for charlatans and mountebanks were love potions and fertility potions, so there's no reason that Snape and Pomfrey wouldn't have a well-stocked cabinet full of those, plus the "antidote."

It really doesn't make sense to argue that magical medicine wouldn't work on mundane illnesses and injuries--that's what it would have been developed for in the first place. So Nurse Pomfrey almost certainly has something that will take care of your genital warts either way.

[McStabbington]

We must be thinking of different teenagers. When I was a teenager, I was alternately thrilled and terrified of the idea of sex, and wanted desperately to make sure it was special. I'm pretty sure I would not have settled for an old carpet for my first time, no matter how desperate for a shag I was.

Honestly, I think you guys are protesting too much. Hogwarts is a trade school, yes, but it is also instructing in a trade that quite literally allows you to warp reality around you. If you are even moderately talented at it, you will never want for food or shelter again. If you are very talented, then you can have just about anything you could imagine or want: wealth, friends and loves, and immortality.

But if you do it poorly, or use it for the wrong ends, it could level a city block. Or an entire city. Hogwarts is all about training people not to do either of those two things. They seem somewhat less skilled at the second part given Grindlewald and Tom Riddle and the Death Eaters. But they seem spectacularly good at the first part: I can't recall a single mention of someone leveling Manchester because they got drunk, decided to whip up a special potion to top off the night, and threw in a bezoar when they should have put in a dash of nightshade. By and large, the wizards are close-minded and insular, but they are not a lethal hazard to the communities that they live in, despite the ridiculous amounts of power that they wield.

Which is part and parcel of the story Rowling was trying to tell. It's important to remember that "world-building" isn't about closing off every possible logical error or world-negating presupposition. We don't ask about the technical details of wizarding birth control for the same reason we don't wonder why Death Star engineers didn't bother with a complex device known as a "grate" to cover the tailpipe, or why Skynet didn't just encase a nuke inside a meatsuit, or how exactly Indiana Jones hung onto a submarine under water for several days in Raiders of the Lost Ark: because if we did that, there would be no story, and those fricking stories were good enough for me to willfully overlook the details, darnit!

If you want a story with absolutely no possible logical errors, no "why didn't they just ride the Eagles to Mordor"-style questions, then you will never read or watch anything ever. Every story has them. Every story. Instead, you need to be willing to extend some plausible suspension of disbelief, and then ask yourself whether the world, as presented by the author, has any internal inconsistencies. And on that count, J.K. Rowling's Potter-verse does, because the titular characters wield fantastic power while being hidden away completely from ordinary society. But she then spends seven books exploring that inconsistency and explaining it, using it in large sense to critique parts of the world she's created as dysfunctional.

[thorgrim29]

Unless at least one of the participants has some fairly singular fetishes, that sounds like the worst sex ever. No sound, and it's either literally completely black, or your partner looks like old carpet. I mean that's really desperate for a shag.

Holy unintended pun Batman!

Also yeah, Hogwarts is a horrible as a school, but since the wizarding world is basically filled with morons who wouldn't know an original thought if it hit them in the head and have all the critical thinking capacities of a month old puppy I,d say that fits the setting rather well

[warty goblin]

Holy unintended pun Batman!

Also yeah, Hogwarts is a horrible as a school, but since the wizarding world is basically filled with morons who wouldn't know an original thought if it hit them in the head and have all the critical thinking capacities of a month old puppy I,d say that fits the setting rather well
I worked in food service. My sex puns are never unintentional.

[thorgrim29]

Good one then

[Coidzor]

I read that as a makeout/grope session. Shirts and bras get shifted around a bit during that kind of thing. You dont have to have full on sex for your clothes to be a bit askew.

Any speculation on birth control, std issues, or rampant sexual intercourse is just that, speculation. There is nothing to back up any likelyhood that the sex is out of control there.

I suppose if you wanted to feel generous, sure. From what I recall they were both 16. If they were 14, yeah, maybe I could buy only getting to second base. After that? Nope, I'm going to assume the worst just like any other adult who saw what Harry saw would assume.

Just part of human nature which as far as the books are concerned is still intact in wizards even if they are foolish. Actually, the fact that wizards are more foolish than muggles would tend to exacerbate the bad decisions they make which would in turn have an impact on their proclivity for ill-advised trysts. Though that influence would be stronger if it's a nature thing than if it were a nurture thing, since other nurture elements might curb it to a greater or lesser extent. Although, as has been said, they don't need to be any more licentious than real people.


The magical world seems rather protestant to me.

:smallconfused: ...Probably not the best choice of wording, that.


There would have been a population boom immediately after the war but that would appear in Ginny's year and below and still not been enough to fill the castle

Well, given what we know of the small numbers of wizards and their general lack of fecundity it seems like there's at least some possibility that they might not have had any population boom after either Dark Lord was put down.


Also, they have alchemy. In a world where magic works, alchemy is going to work like all get out. In real world history, the most common inventory items for charlatans and mountebanks were love potions and fertility potions, so there's no reason that Snape and Pomfrey wouldn't have a well-stocked cabinet full of those, plus the "antidote."

Snape, for all of his many, many faults, doesn't seem interested in date rape or facilitating it. And that's all that love potions do, really. Sort of a plot point as to part of why Voldemort came out so screwed up. There's no medicinal reason why the school nurse would have roofies, either. Contraceptives, sure, school nurses are supposed to have those, or at least prophylactics.

[Knaight]

We must be thinking of different teenagers. When I was a teenager, I was alternately thrilled and terrified of the idea of sex, and wanted desperately to make sure it was special. I'm pretty sure I would not have settled for an old carpet for my first time, no matter how desperate for a shag I was.

Not really? It's not like the subject hasn't been studied, and what usually happens is that there's a sizable chunk of teenagers that will be having sex. Not all of them, but a sizable chunk, even in the midst of cultures and subcultures that disapprove extremely strongly. Then you get people like me, who have a response along the lines of "I don't have any idea why anyone would be interested in that, but other people seem to enjoy it. Like watching football."

[LordChaos13]

Snape, for all of his many, many faults, doesn't seem interested in date rape or facilitating it. And that's all that love potions do, really. Sort of a plot point as to part of why Voldemort came out so screwed up. There's no medicinal reason why the school nurse would have roofies, either. Contraceptives, sure, school nurses are supposed to have those, or at least prophylactics.

Considering some of the standard medication for some things are basically legalized drugs, I can totally see why Pomphrey would have variants at least of Amortentia
Amphetamines treat ADD among other things. Taken in higher doses is an illegal narcotic

Maybe low-level Amortentia can treat hormone imbalances causing mood swings? Vital to have around in a place lke Hogwarts

[Kitten Champion]

:smallconfused: ...Probably not the best choice of wording, that.


Well, it just reflects the sensibilities of the author, anything which isn't strictly magical tends towards... let's say conventional. For all the magical society isolates itself to the point of aburdity, it's still consistant with the religious and ideological traditions of Britain.

This is compared to say, the magical world of Dresden or Nightside.

On another note, I wouldn't be happy with a Hogwarts education myself. The lack of math and literary studies would vex me, regardless of magic,

[johnbragg]

Snape, for all of his many, many faults, doesn't seem interested in date rape or facilitating it. And that's all that love potions do, really. Sort of a plot point as to part of why Voldemort came out so screwed up. There's no medicinal reason why the school nurse would have roofies, either. Contraceptives, sure, school nurses are supposed to have those, or at least prophylactics.

I phrased that poorly, my point was that Snape and/or Pomfrey would be perfectly capable of handling contraception issues or sexually transmitted diseases. Whether they would use the magical equivalent of a morning-after pill is undetermined, and best not discussed, but everything in the Potterverse indicates it would be within their abilities.

[Agrippa]

I also found the perfect counterpart to Stanton Infeld for Muggle liason for Ravenclaw House (http://lady-slytherin-forever.tumblr.com/post/9001220525/ravenclaw-spoilers-stop-reading-if-you-dont-want-to). Doctor Walter Bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bishop_(Fringe)) of course. Assisted by Alec Hardison of Leverage International. Any ideas for other Hogwarts Muggle liasons?

[Kato]

Geez, people. I know sex is interesting but now the fertility of wizards and teen wizard pregnancy has become the focus of the thread? Shame on you :smalltongue:


This is just my very personal opinion but I always felt teen pregnancies happened inversely proportional to the teens' intelligence. I'll just assume the kids at Hogwart have SOME KIND of sex ed and Rowling just didn't put it anywhere... they should know something about how this works, after all. So even if they aren't all Hermione level geniuses I'd still assume they either know how to use some kind of contraception or they really won't do anything more than groping. (Also, still, school full of ghosts and house elves and watching paintings)


Regarding a post-Voldemort baby-boom... I'll just assume Rowling didn't think about that. Or they just recruited more muggles. (How do they find magically inclined muggles anyway?)

[LordChaos13]

Theres no such thing as a magically-inclined muggle, unless you count Squibs who are muggles that see through Anti-muggle wards. I assume you mean Muggleborn, which is a witch or wizard with both biological parents being non-magical

I reckon they either detect their Accidental Magic or have a magical artifact writing down any and all magical births in great britain

[Traab]

I suppose if you wanted to feel generous, sure. From what I recall they were both 16. If they were 14, yeah, maybe I could buy only getting to second base. After that? Nope, I'm going to assume the worst just like any other adult who saw what Harry saw would assume.




Yes, they were 16, and out in a public area with only some shadow to hide them with at least one teacher roaming the area enjoying catching people. I dont think its all that generous to assume that his basilisk is NOT exploring her chamber of secrets. Especially since it wasnt treated as that big of a deal. If she had been caught casting accio baby batter on his magic wand I would have expected it to be a bigger deal.

[Juntao112]

Regarding a post-Voldemort baby-boom... I'll just assume Rowling didn't think about that. Or they just recruited more muggles. (How do they find magically inclined muggles anyway?)

With magic, I'd assume.

[BWR]

HP-verse is all about wizards doing it.

[deuterio12]

I would like to point out that Hogwarts gives classes on breeding and treating magical beasts of all sorts.

I'm pretty sure those classes cover "Where do baby unicorns/dragon eggs come from", and any half-smart kid will figure out where human babies come from based on that.

Plus, there's a wide variety of herbs that work as natural abortifacient such as pennyroyal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentha_pulegium).

There's also botany classes on Hogwarts where they study all sorts of plants. I'm pretty sure their teacher or books would mention such herbs at one point or another.

It's simply not something students would casually discuss in the open (By the way I've been sleeping with Billy so I've been taking pennyroyal tea every night just in case).

[VariSami]

I have been pondering the same and come to the conclusion that most if not all wizards are actually what people would call "white thrash" by their level of education and civilization. I really hope no one was insulted by that choice of words, but it connection seems very appropriate to me.

What I find most lacking in the Hogwarts system is actually the utter absence of anything resembling the humanities (or social sciences). Of course, I am biased here, being a student of social philosophy. But think about it: they have a very minimal intellectual culture. Wizards do not ponder philosophy. And this happens to include ethics. They do not study psychology.

Actually, they do have muggle studies as a sort of a social science, and wizarding history is history (but no one pays any attention to it - very appropriate).

Not only are muggles far more scientifically advanced, they are also more civilized if they have received any sort of high school education. On average, they are a lot more civilized, that is. When it seems that anything achieved by the muggles is taken to be inferior, all great thinkers from Einstein to Plato are assumed to be insignificant.

[Themrys]

I would like to point out that Hogwarts gives classes on breeding and treating magical beasts of all sorts.

I'm pretty sure those classes cover "Where do baby unicorns/dragon eggs come from", and any half-smart kid will figure out where human babies come from based on that.

Plus, there's a wide variety of herbs that work as natural abortifacient such as pennyroyal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentha_pulegium).

There's also botany classes on Hogwarts where they study all sorts of plants. I'm pretty sure their teacher or books would mention such herbs at one point or another.

It's simply not something students would casually discuss in the open (By the way I've been sleeping with Billy so I've been taking pennyroyal tea every night just in case).

Pennyroyal is not safe. At least that's what I've read, and I'm quite sure that it's true at least for people who don't know a lot about herbs. And that's true for most herbs - they aren't just a natural morning-after pill. There are dangers.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, since "a witch did it" is sufficient explanation for any method of contraception or abortion used in the Harry Potter Universe. They don't need real-life plants.

I also like to think that most parents explain to their children where the little babies come from. I knew that in primary school. In fact, we had it explained to us again in primary school, which I guess was good for those children whose parents hadn't bothered to explain it.


@VariSami: Your choice of words is, indeed, inappropriate, although there is no really polite term ... I'd prefer "bildungsferne Schichten", which means something like "those classes which are far away from education" and does not have quite as many unfortunate implications. (Just the one that it is somehow bad to not have education, which, I guess, you want to imply)


However, at least in Germany, you don't have ethics (unless religion is switched for ethics, which wasn't the case in my school) or philosophy or psychology in school. You may learn about it in your free time or go to university and study it later. Which might be possible for witches and wizards. We don't know that - actually, since all magical children go to Hogwarts, we may assume that this is an integrated school, and higher education comes afterwards, for those who want it.


Furthermore, I can absolutely imagine a magical society where only the rich, "old" families own books about philosophy and stuff, and others never know that there is such a thing in the first place. Just like in die Middle Ages, education was something you paid for, and if you couldn't afford it, you just didn't have it.

After all, if all children go to Hogwarts, there has to be something to distinguish the families with old money. They probably would not like it if some lower class magical person could just talk to them and they'd not notice that they're talking to someone who doesn't have money, now, would they?

[Traab]

I have been pondering the same and come to the conclusion that most if not all wizards are actually what people would call "white thrash" by their level of education and civilization. I really hope no one was insulted by that choice of words, but it connection seems very appropriate to me.

What I find most lacking in the Hogwarts system is actually the utter absence of anything resembling the humanities (or social sciences). Of course, I am biased here, being a student of social philosophy. But think about it: they have a very minimal intellectual culture. Wizards do not ponder philosophy. And this happens to include ethics. They do not study psychology.

Actually, they do have muggle studies as a sort of a social science, and wizarding history is history (but no one pays any attention to it - very appropriate).

Not only are muggles far more scientifically advanced, they are also more civilized if they have received any sort of high school education. On average, they are a lot more civilized, that is. When it seems that anything achieved by the muggles is taken to be inferior, all great thinkers from Einstein to Plato are assumed to be insignificant.


Keep in mind that isolated cultures tend to ossify. There is a reason wizards are ONLY 100 years or so behind the times in britain, and thats because the muggleborn bring in lots of new stuff, and sometimes a little of it sticks. If there was no such thing as muggleborn (and the wizarding population was somehow still viable) I wouldnt be surprised if they were still stuck in the 1600s. They want nothing to do with muggle knowledge. They dont need psychiatry, because they have mind altering charms and potions. They dont need to worry about world history, because to them, magical britain IS the world. They dont have philosophy because those maggots are muggles. They dont need any of our sciences because they have magic. They dont need to worry about advances in farming and livestock, they can cast engorgio on an ear of corn and have everyone in town eat a kernel for dinner.

What it all boils down to is, they dont teach those courses because they dont need them. At the very worst they just dont SEE a need for them. You look down on them for not teaching philosophy, or physics, they would look down on us for not teaching transfiguration and DADA. Its kind of bigoted of you to assume they have a substandard education because they arent taught enough to live in a world they have no part in. They have all the education they need to live in the magical world.

[Killer Angel]

So... opinions, fellow Playgrounders?

They are wizards, and they don't rule the world. They must be failing something. :smallwink:

[deuterio12]

Pennyroyal is not safe. At least that's what I've read, and I'm quite sure that it's true at least for people who don't know a lot about herbs. And that's true for most herbs - they aren't just a natural morning-after pill. There are dangers.

The school grounds is overflowing with giant predators, their favorite sport involves animated balls trying to crush your head at all costs, their festivals include facing life-fire-breathing dragons and the school itself is haunted by the ghosts of previous students that died in unexplained conditions. Safety isn't a very high priority around there.



Anyway, it doesn't matter, since "a witch did it" is sufficient explanation for any method of contraception or abortion used in the Harry Potter Universe. They don't need real-life plants.

Mandragoras, bezoars and several other stuff in the book do exist in real life. It just happens they have hidden magic properties when used by wizards.:smallwink:



I also like to think that most parents explain to their children where the little babies come from. I knew that in primary school. In fact, we had it explained to us again in primary school, which I guess was good for those children whose parents hadn't bothered to explain it.

Yeah, that I can agree with. Most probably the families themselves teach it.



However, at least in Germany, you don't have ethics (unless religion is switched for ethics, which wasn't the case in my school) or philosophy or psychology in school. You may learn about it in your free time or go to university and study it later. Which might be possible for witches and wizards. We don't know that - actually, since all magical children go to Hogwarts, we may assume that this is an integrated school, and higher education comes afterwards, for those who want it.

That as well. As already mentioned earlier in this thread Hogwarts is aimed at teaching kids how to control the basics of the very powerful power that is magic. Once they know how to not acidentaly blow themselves or somebody else up while being self-suficient, they can start studying fancier things.

[Themrys]

They are wizards, and they don't rule the world. They must be failing something. :smallwink:

Of course. I really like the premise of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" which pokes fun at that fact. (With Harry planning to rule the world someday, which he is equipped to do since he knows about rationality AND learns to do magic ... well, at least he thinks so)

[Kato]

However, at least in Germany, you don't have ethics (unless religion is switched for ethics, which wasn't the case in my school) or philosophy or psychology in school. You may learn about it in your free time or go to university and study it later. Which might be possible for witches and wizards. We don't know that - actually, since all magical children go to Hogwarts, we may assume that this is an integrated school, and higher education comes afterwards, for those who want it.

Huh? Well, I know education is landessache in Germany but as I didn't choose "religion" I had to take "ethics" and we concerned ourselves with... well, ethics. And I kind of assumed "religion" wouldn't be too far off from what we did. Of course you are to some degree forced to concern yourselves with such things in real life anyway, but as it also concerned basic theology and a rough look into at least most world religions which is something I would probably not have concerned myself at this age with, I guess it is pretty handy to have and kind of helps with... well, basic moral development.

[Themrys]

Huh? Well, I know education is landessache in Germany but as I didn't choose "religion" I had to take "ethics" and we concerned ourselves with... well, ethics. And I kind of assumed "religion" wouldn't be too far off from what we did. Of course you are to some degree forced to concern yourselves with such things in real life anyway, but as it also concerned basic theology and a rough look into at least most world religions which is something I would probably not have concerned myself at this age with, I guess it is pretty handy to have and kind of helps with... well, basic moral development.

I went to a private school with religious leanings, but I think we also had to take religion in primary school, which was a "normal" school. (I'm not sure whether staying home was an alternative, but if so, my parents didn't want that. I got to choose between the two main flavours of christianity, though)


We did learn a lot about monotheistic religions (maybe some other world religions too, can't remember), which is good, but I always imagined that ethics would be more concerned with ethical behaviour than with Bible texts. (Of course, I am quite happy about knowing a lot about Christianity, as it IS part of the cultural background and turns up quite a lot in literature, and our teachers were relatively modern so we got to read the texts that weren't included in the Bible, some of which portray Jesus in a somewhat different light than mainstream religion would have us believe.)

However, I did get the impression that "ethics" as school subject is not standard everywhere in the world. And is somewhat of a recent thing, so it's no wonder that magical Great Britain would be a bit behind.

[LordChaos13]

At the risk of going into bad territory: There are two main groups of christians?
I thought there were Mormons, protestants, Catholics and the Bible Belt, each splint into hundreds of smaller sects

[jedipilot24]

{scrubbed}

[Raimun]

I still say they should first dispose of all the death traps in the school before they are even remotely ready to consider the many flaws of their curriculum.

But I guess it's all A-okay with Dumbledore. There's no need for him to worry about the death traps. That kid with the scar, "what's-his-name?" and his little friends, will find a way to disable them. Most likely. If they survive the death traps.

[thorgrim29]

{scrubbed}

[RPGuru1331]

I tend to assume the basic schooling that is needed to produce a semi-functional society was just not considered interesting enough to talk about, and therefore to not reference. And until Order of the Phoenix, at earliest, they were kid's books, and any sex ed should have been handled before then anyway, so there wasn't much need to reference it. Rowling likely considered it, so I'm hesitant to knock the world building, but didn't consider it important to portray. If not, oh well.


They are wizards, and they don't rule the world. They must be failing something.
They failed existing in DnD, so that's something, I guess.

[Seppl]

At the risk of going into bad territory: There are two main groups of christians?
I thought there were Mormons, protestants, Catholics and the Bible Belt, each splint into hundreds of smaller sects

Growing up in Germany you only ever see two: Roman catholic and the German flavor of protestantism. As these two factions each make up about 50% of all Christians in Germany (Christianity is the most prevalent religion in Germany, >60% of the population is Christian), you get the impression that there are only these two denominations. As the Christian religion is rather prominent in Germany -- with large churches in every city center, a major political party following Christian ethics and official holidays mostly coinciding with Christian holidays -- it is hard to ignore these impressions. I was rather surprised, learning that there are so many other Christian faiths in the world, when as a child, all people seemed to be sorted into two groups: Catholics or Protestants. (A lot more people were religous 20 years ago. You rarely ever heard about atheism, which has by now become the single largest "faith" if you count Catholicism and Protestantism separately)

[Tiki Snakes]

Eh, we're straying really, really heavily into forbidden topics guys, lets keep it about Hogwarts and the world of harry potter, okay? :smalleek:

Which is to say, much as it is valid to assume basic actual education takes place as well, simply never discussed due to not being relevant, I personally think that the apparent lack of such basics of education fits rather well with the peculiar, disfunctional and often ethically challenged world of Magical Britain.

[Emmerask]

Its not that bad actually if we assume that basic math and reading writing is taught somewhere somehow.

Physics and chemistry is not really relevant in the form we learn it since its obviously wrong in this universe.

The rest is mostly covered and the truly specialized studies are then done at the working place

[Ikialev]

{scrubbed}

[thorgrim29]

Hey, the guy asked a question, I answered. It's not as if I was preaching (not that I actually believe any of it)

[Kato]

However, I did get the impression that "ethics" as school subject is not standard everywhere in the world. And is somewhat of a recent thing, so it's no wonder that magical Great Britain would be a bit behind.

Ah, I guess I misread your post then. My bad.


You know, considering they could fit Divination into the schedule which seems to be a class hardly anyone trusts does really work I'm somewhat surprised Occlumency isn't taught regularly as it seems much more useful.

[LordChaos13]

Its also apparently really hard and likely requires mental discipline and focus.

it might have been a NEWT elective 7th year or even post-grad study

[Rater202]

Its also apparently really hard and likely requires mental discipline and focus.

it might have been a NEWT elective 7th year or even post-grad study

or it might have been not intirly legal for them to teach it to Harry.

[Traab]

Hey, the guy asked a question, I answered. It's not as if I was preaching (not that I actually believe any of it)

Yeah. . . that was kind of an odd reaction. I dont think any of what you said even violated forum policy as it was nothing more than a brief history lesson.

Anyways, back on topic. I still think the biggest issue with people thinking hogwarts sucks as a school is they think of our schools and assume anything titled "school" must work in a similar fashion or else it sucks. While it isnt covered to my knowledge, I think its safe to assume basic reading, writing, and arithmetic is home schooled seeing as how everyone, even the thickest of students is capable of doing all three from day 1. And in this world, magic is your whole life! None of that other stuff matters that we find important, because magic can fill in the gap. That school is designed to give every student a solid grounding in how THEIR world works. Then they give them a set of choices on what extra courses sound good, then from there they can choose a career that suits them.

As for why no occlumency, well apparently its not a very well known subject, and equally apparently its for a reason. Even ignoring snape, there just arent a lot of people who can claim to know about occlumency on a deep enough level to teach it. If it was really that simple, "Learn occlumency, kick ass at remembering things" then it probably would be taught. Also, there is the creep factor. The guy testing you is likely going to see all your secrets in the process. Do you really want to let that teacher know everything about your life because your shields slipped while being tested?

[123456789blaaa]

Hey, the guy asked a question, I answered. It's not as if I was preaching (not that I actually believe any of it)

{scrubbed}

[RPGuru1331]

Which is to say, much as it is valid to assume basic actual education takes place as well, simply never discussed due to not being relevant, I personally think that the apparent lack of such basics of education fits rather well with the peculiar, disfunctional and often ethically challenged world of Magical Britain.

It does somewhat beggar disbelief that anyone that wasn't muggle-raised learned about muggle history when getting them to learn about wizarding history is like pulling teeth, so there's that. I'm not sure I'd say they're particularly ethically challenged. They are certainly ethically challenged, don't get me wrong, but particularly so?

I'll also go ahead and say, I totally buy Grindelwald as a Hitler analog, but unless book 6 says stuff (I missed that one, nominally), I got absolutely no feeling of him supposed to be some sort of ally to Hitler at all. Granted, I might have missed something.


And in this world, magic is your whole life! None of that other stuff matters that we find important, because magic can fill in the gap.
This is demonstrably untrue, or they would have used a spell to write their exams for them. You can't get past advanced writing lessons if you have courses where you have to write, and they demonstrably have those courses.

There's also elements of basic human nature to consider - True, their construction doesn't need to use the laws of physics, for instance... but engineers, architects and the like have created a number of rules for themselves, and for elegant design, that aren't just 'is physically possible'. I'd be shocked if minimizing the NEED for magic wasn't on that list for magical architects. More magic is more expense, after all.


Hey, the guy asked a question, I answered. It's not as if I was preaching (not that I actually believe any of it)
You sorta did, by making pronouncements on what's 'real'. I don't really care, and you probably don't either, but it's still there.

[Ikialev]

{Scrubbed}

[LordChaos13]

I'll also go ahead and say, I totally buy Grindelwald as a Hitler analog, but unless book 6 says stuff (I missed that one, nominally), I got absolutely no feeling of him supposed to be some sort of ally to Hitler at all. Granted, I might have missed something.


EDIT: nevermind I totally misread what you said

[Traab]

This is demonstrably untrue, or they would have used a spell to write their exams for them. You can't get past advanced writing lessons if you have courses where you have to write, and they demonstrably have those courses.

There's also elements of basic human nature to consider - True, their construction doesn't need to use the laws of physics, for instance... but engineers, architects and the like have created a number of rules for themselves, and for elegant design, that aren't just 'is physically possible'. I'd be shocked if minimizing the NEED for magic wasn't on that list for magical architects. More magic is more expense, after all.



As I covered in that post, they are most likely home schooled to cover the reading writing and math they need to learn because they all start out school knowing how to do all this. They get written homework assignments from day 1. They have text books they are supposed to read. They have to keep track of how many times they are have stirred something and how many stirs are left after reading the directions from the board. Clearly they already know how to do those things.

As for building, they say "Housius Maximus" and there is a house. They dont need to understand physics, construction, or any of the complex stuff we need to know to build a house, the magic makes it happen for them. Obviously thats an exaggeration of how it works, but you get my point. Maybe im wrong, maybe the architects DO teach their students basic physics so they can put up a house that doesnt require extensive magic to avoid collapsing, but like any other trade, its not something the rest of the world needs to be taught.

[Frozen_Feet]

This is just my very personal opinion but I always felt teen pregnancies happened inversely proportional to the teens' intelligence.

Maybe not intelligence per se, but there are many statistics showing that people with higher IQ tend to start sexual activity later than those with lower values. (They also tend to get less children overall.)

Not a hard rule, and certainly with lot of local variation. Which brings me to modern Britain, that allegedly does have a problem with teen pregnancies. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-28860/UK-tops-league-teenage-pregnancy.html)

So... yeah. I'd say "lots of teen pregnancies" is just being a realist here. :smallamused:

[John Cribati]

Can’t click the link right now, but for those stats to be relevant, they'd have to be from '91- '97.

[kpenguin]

The Modguin: Thread reopened. Please stay well clear from the topic of religion and especially controversial subjects like if a religion belongs to a group of religions or not.

[Kitten Champion]

The problem I'm having is Rowling is depicting a world which is modern in many respects. Modern, as in post-Napoleonic, a bureaucratic society with a complex economy, legal system, and form of government. This requires a level of educated intellect to maintain judiciously, to have leaders and agents capable of thinking rationally towards the minimal objective of keeping their very society functioning as well as sustain private enterprises. They've long since passed the phase of social development where being half-educated by half-educated adults is sufficient. You would need contemporary high-school math at the very, very minimum.

There's no real excuse for this, not really. These are all the British Wizard and Witches of this generation, this isn't a technical college built towards specialized magical training for some adults but nearly a decade of elementary education for developing the youths who will need to fill every necessary position in society. This isn't a large society we're dealing with, nor is it in desperate need for labour or so poor it can't afford a well-rounded education of its collective future.

While I would agree that they should not mirror the education of a Muggle, they know things about reality which we do not, the nature of the questions we ask would be the same or very similar and the methods would not differ greatly -- just the conclusions drawn.

I mean, the magical world has no natural, political, ethical, or theological philosophers? This is a society which is very old, based on literacy and knowledge by its very nature, filled with relatively long-lived men and women who can meet most of their basic needs through next to no effort, and is without obvious sexual bias limiting Witches from contributing. How does such a society not develop a complex intellectual and philosophical tradition considering every society in history with similar circumstances has done so? They are especially in need of ethics given every one of them has the capacity to kill, torture, and coerce people simply by waving a stick and muttering fake Latin - there would be a well developed discourse on the subject.

All of which would take years to engage in. Even before students get to that point, they'd need the basic education to comprehend and engage in such philosophical issues. I don't know about you, but I had trouble with deeply anachronistic texts when I was leaving the 6th grade.

The education they receive should be closer to an Aes Sedai, with a relatively enormous depth of knowledge on all subjects to begin and eventual focus onto their area of interest after some time.

[snoopy13a]

I think sex is a bit beyond the scope of the Harry Potter books. Rowling intentionally did not address it--because the Harry Potter books were primarily for children. In her contemporary novel, The Casual Vacancy, the teenage characters discuss, ponder, and experience sex in a much more realistic way than those in the Potter-verse. Since Rowling is not naive nor idealistic about teenage sexual behavior, the best conclusion is simply that she felt that sex is outside the scope of children's literature.

[Themrys]

Ah, I guess I misread your post then. My bad.


You know, considering they could fit Divination into the schedule which seems to be a class hardly anyone trusts does really work I'm somewhat surprised Occlumency isn't taught regularly as it seems much more useful.

Yeah, that's strange.

But it's believable. I mean, I've always wondered why they try to teach people lots of useless games in school sports, but not self-defense.

In that respect, Hogwarts is not unusually crappy.

Actually, maybe that's a comment by Rowling, on schools. I mean, usually, you're good at sports or you aren't, and if you aren't, you can only get marginally better by learning the theory. It's basically the same with divination.

But maybe I'm reading too much into that.

[snoopy13a]

I mean, the magical world has no natural, political, ethical, or theological philosophers? This is a society which is very old, based on literacy and knowledge by its very nature, filled with relatively long-lived men and women who can meet most of their basic needs through next to no effort, and is without obvious sexual bias limiting Witches from contributing. How does such a society not develop a complex intellectual and philosophical tradition considering every society in history with similar circumstances has done so? They are especially in need of ethics given every one of them has the capacity to kill, torture, and coerce people simply by waving a stick and muttering fake Latin - there would be a well developed discourse on the subject.


Well, one short answer is that Rowling might have thought it would be boring to have Harry, Ron, and Hermoine sit in ethics classes. A second short answer would be they just import ethics from the Muggles.

However, my take is that the wizarding world is simply lazy. They have goblins to handle the mundane economics of their age and house elves to do the dirty work. Simple magic spells fill in the gaps. Most of their jobs are within an inefficient bureaucracy. Even a "poor" family like the Weasleys is well-off compared to Muggle counterparts.

Outside of a few magic researchers and a handful of niche occupations like the Healers, it seems many wizards simply laze around and use magic. Perhaps this crutch leaves wizards inept to strive for anything approaching cultural improvements? Perhaps the wizards are a metaphor for a parasitic ruling class?

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, one short answer is that Rowling might have thought it would be boring to have Harry, Ron, and Hermoine sit in ethics classes. A second short answer would be they just import ethics from the Muggles.

Speaking as someone native who was at school at the time of Harry Potter (I'd actually have been in his year, to my endless amusement), I can say that I very much doubt ethics would be on the curriculum for wizrad or muggle at that time. We had RE (religious education) but for a year or so at senior school (and a fairly shallow class at that), and that was it.

Also worth noting on the subject of sex that there wasn't quite so much free access to information twenty years ago (and telly and whatnot was a bit more conservative in the UK), so children back then were not perhaps quite as savvy for their age as now (though granted, I was the son of a family planning nurse and therefore was educated from an early age and thus am not a good source sample.)

That said, Hogwarts atypically went from 11 to 17: in muggle schools, 11 was top-end junior and 17 was first-year college (that's college, not university, by the way), 12-16 bbeign senior school at the time. So one would expect some... problems at least from the top three or four years, especially being a boarding school.

[deuterio12]

That would be assuming that magic is static.

But we know that there's plenty of magic research.

New, faster, fancier broom models seem to come out every year. We know that wizards from other countries also produce other transport alternatives.

There's whole wizard organizations dedicated to studying and caring of the countless magic beasts across the world (and the magic properties that can be harnessed from them).

The weasley twins themselves develop new magic toys and treats.

Similarly one of their older brothers is described as studying old egyptian curses.

Plenty of wizards work hard for fame and fortune in the wizardry world. Then there's medical research in conditions such as lychantropy.

There's both magic commerce (including smuggling of dangerous magical stuff) and there's magic research (which may also be deemed dangerous, such as, say, the philosopher's stone). Wizards have their own coinage and they trade products and knowledge with other wizard communities.

Who has time for cheap philosophy when you can go ride in a flying artifact in search of dragons?:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Then there's also Snape who even as a child would improve on textbook potion formulas and Hagrid who likes to cross diferent magic beasts to create new ones.

[Coidzor]

The problem I'm having is Rowling is depicting a world which is modern in many respects. Modern, as in post-Napoleonic, a bureaucratic society with a complex economy, legal system, and form of government. This requires a level of educated intellect to maintain judiciously, to have leaders and agents capable of thinking rationally towards the minimal objective of keeping their very society functioning as well as sustain private enterprises. They've long since passed the phase of social development where being half-educated by half-educated adults is sufficient. You would need contemporary high-school math at the very, very minimum.

There's no real excuse for this, not really. These are all the British Wizard and Witches of this generation, this isn't a technical college built towards specialized magical training for some adults but nearly a decade of elementary education for developing the youths who will need to fill every necessary position in society. This isn't a large society we're dealing with, nor is it in desperate need for labour or so poor it can't afford a well-rounded education of its collective future.

While I would agree that they should not mirror the education of a Muggle, they know things about reality which we do not, the nature of the questions we ask would be the same or very similar and the methods would not differ greatly -- just the conclusions drawn.

I mean, the magical world has no natural, political, ethical, or theological philosophers? This is a society which is very old, based on literacy and knowledge by its very nature, filled with relatively long-lived men and women who can meet most of their basic needs through next to no effort, and is without obvious sexual bias limiting Witches from contributing. How does such a society not develop a complex intellectual and philosophical tradition considering every society in history with similar circumstances has done so? They are especially in need of ethics given every one of them has the capacity to kill, torture, and coerce people simply by waving a stick and muttering fake Latin - there would be a well developed discourse on the subject.

All of which would take years to engage in. Even before students get to that point, they'd need the basic education to comprehend and engage in such philosophical issues. I don't know about you, but I had trouble with deeply anachronistic texts when I was leaving the 6th grade.

The education they receive should be closer to an Aes Sedai, with a relatively enormous depth of knowledge on all subjects to begin and eventual focus onto their area of interest after some time.

Thank you.


Can’t click the link right now, but for those stats to be relevant, they'd have to be from '91- '97.

Not necessarily. In the sense they're being referenced, they don't have to be from the 1990s to be relevant save for a secondary intent, unless you can show some reason why they'd have to be from the 1990s, such as human nature being fundamentally different between a decade and the decade after it. Also, the article mentions that it's basically been the same since the 1970s when birth control and contraception first became popular and widely available and that in 1999 it was being blamed on ignorance of safe sex practices and lack of access to contraceptives by young girls.

[Selrahc]

(and telly and whatnot was a bit more conservative in the UK)

In the 90s? Absolutely not. In the pre-wide access to the internet
and special interest channels days of the 90s, TV was pushing hard on the crudity buzzer in a way that it doesn't really do at all now.(On terrestrial channels at least)

[RPGuru1331]

As I covered in that post, they are most likely home schooled to cover the reading writing and math they need to learn because they all start out school knowing how to do all this. They get written homework assignments from day 1. They have text books they are supposed to read. They have to keep track of how many times they are have stirred something and how many stirs are left after reading the directions from the board. Clearly they already know how to do those things.
Right, I'm not questioning basic literacy and basic writing. I specified 'advanced writing lessons' for a reason. It's one thing to know about subjects and verbs, or periods and commas, and quite another to properly express your thoughts in an extended format, especially in an academic (or business, or governmental) context.


As for building, they say "Housius Maximus" and there is a house. They dont need to understand physics, construction, or any of the complex stuff we need to know to build a house, the magic makes it happen for them.
Except they don't. From what we've seen with the car, they have to do every single individual enchantment that goes into the house's construction seperately. There's clearly still craft and skill involved - the Weasley household looks different from the Malfoy household, and not just because they have different preferences in aesthetics. One of them looks like crap, not even counting furniture and the like (which in theory should fall under the same rules). They may need fewer professional crafters thanks to magic, but they HAVE those crafters. And that means there's room for professional codes of conduct and rules about smart design.

What I'm wondering is who wires their electricity. 'cause it's just Hogwarts that flatly can't have any.



Maybe im wrong, maybe the architects DO teach their students basic physics so they can put up a house that doesnt require extensive magic to avoid collapsing, but like any other trade, its not something the rest of the world needs to be taught.
Basic physics isn't something everyone in an industrialized nation needs to learn at all, so not everyone would need to in the magical world. The point isn't that every Hogwarts student would likely need such a background, but it, and other 'mundane' subjects, likely exists as a background that goes into your school if you do.


The problem I'm having is Rowling is depicting a world which is modern in many respects. Modern, as in post-Napoleonic, a bureaucratic society with a complex economy, legal system, and form of government. This requires a level of educated intellect to maintain judiciously, to have leaders and agents capable of thinking rationally towards the minimal objective of keeping their very society functioning as well as sustain private enterprises. They've long since passed the phase of social development where being half-educated by half-educated adults is sufficient. You would need contemporary high-school math at the very, very minimum.

There's no real excuse for this, not really. These are all the British Wizard and Witches of this generation, this isn't a technical college built towards specialized magical training for some adults but nearly a decade of elementary education for developing the youths who will need to fill every necessary position in society. This isn't a large society we're dealing with, nor is it in desperate need for labour or so poor it can't afford a well-rounded education of its collective future.

While I would agree that they should not mirror the education of a Muggle, they know things about reality which we do not, the nature of the questions we ask would be the same or very similar and the methods would not differ greatly -- just the conclusions drawn.

I mean, the magical world has no natural, political, ethical, or theological philosophers? This is a society which is very old, based on literacy and knowledge by its very nature, filled with relatively long-lived men and women who can meet most of their basic needs through next to no effort, and is without obvious sexual bias limiting Witches from contributing. How does such a society not develop a complex intellectual and philosophical tradition considering every society in history with similar circumstances has done so? They are especially in need of ethics given every one of them has the capacity to kill, torture, and coerce people simply by waving a stick and muttering fake Latin - there would be a well developed discourse on the subject.

All of which would take years to engage in. Even before students get to that point, they'd need the basic education to comprehend and engage in such philosophical issues. I don't know about you, but I had trouble with deeply anachronistic texts when I was leaving the 6th grade.
Oh, word, yes. That expands on the basic level that indicates they must have some sort of, you know, actual schooling and not just magic.

[Traab]

Right, I'm not questioning basic literacy and basic writing. I specified 'advanced writing lessons' for a reason. It's one thing to know about subjects and verbs, or periods and commas, and quite another to properly express your thoughts in an extended format, especially in an academic (or business, or governmental) context.


Except they don't. From what we've seen with the car, they have to do every single individual enchantment that goes into the house's construction seperately. There's clearly still craft and skill involved - the Weasley household looks different from the Malfoy household, and not just because they have different preferences in aesthetics. One of them looks like crap, not even counting furniture and the like (which in theory should fall under the same rules). They may need fewer professional crafters thanks to magic, but they HAVE those crafters. And that means there's room for professional codes of conduct and rules about smart design.

What I'm wondering is who wires their electricity. 'cause it's just Hogwarts that flatly can't have any.



Basic physics isn't something everyone in an industrialized nation needs to learn at all, so not everyone would need to in the magical world. The point isn't that every Hogwarts student would likely need such a background, but it, and other 'mundane' subjects, likely exists as a background that goes into your school if you do.


Oh, word, yes. That expands on the basic level that indicates they must have some sort of, you know, actual schooling and not just magic.

They are writing essays on bubotuber pus, not thesis for their doctorates. They dont need advanced english writing classes to be able to take up a foot of parchment on 12 uses of yak anuses in ritual magic.

Yes, I am aware that every enchantment has to be done on its own, my point is that they can basically say "Dripus Minimus" and the roof wont leak. They dont need to understand how to track down and seal off leaks in the roof, they just need to wave a wand, say the words and problem solved. At most there are proprietary spells that are only generally known outside specific fields. A housewife might know a few basic first aid spells for skinned knees and such, but only a st mungos trained healer can treat spattergoit or whatever. Anyone can repair a busted window, but only an architect could rebuild a flattened house.

None of that needs to be taught at hogwarts though. And there is no need to add in science and philosophy and whatever other courses you think might be needed, because wizards DONT need them, they have magic, they dont give a rats ass about why when we jump in the air, we fall back down. They dont care because with a wave of their wand, they WONT fall back down, so newton can go choke himself with his apples for all they care. They dont need a scientific explanation for why that pincushion is now a hedgehog, its magic, say the words, wave the wand, and it happens without understanding the what and why of it.

I doubt those professional ward breakers, house builders, healers, or whatever could really explain why things work the way they do. If you asked, they would likely shrug and say, "They just do."

[RPGuru1331]

They are writing essays on bubotuber pus, not thesis for their doctorates. They dont need advanced english writing classes to be able to take up a foot of parchment on 12 uses of yak anuses in ritual magic.
You don't need to learn academic writing to throw out 5 pages on how the 1920s laid the groundwork for the Great Depression, but it certainly helps. And that's not getting into how writing courses make your government and business reports that much more coherent. They definitely have a bureacracy. I'll grant that we don't have a lot of reason to think they have anything resembling 'corporations'. They are a kind of small market to start with...


Yes, I am aware that every enchantment has to be done on its own, my point is that they can basically say "Dripus Minimus" and the roof wont leak. They dont need to understand how to track down and seal off leaks in the roof, they just need to wave a wand, say the words and problem solved. At most there are proprietary spells that are only generally known outside specific fields. A housewife might know a few basic first aid spells for skinned knees and such, but only a st mungos trained healer can treat spattergoit or whatever. Anyone can repair a busted window, but only an architect could rebuild a flattened house.
Like I said, 'fewer crafters'. If you have a professional crafter group, there will be rules - and given that they're humans, 'as little magic as necessary' is likely to end up as one of them, for both practical and pride-based reasons.


None of that needs to be taught at hogwarts though. And there is no need to add in science and philosophy and whatever other courses you think might be needed, because wizards DONT need them
Actually, Hermione would find Rawls' philosophy to be incredibly useful in her life. The Lovegoods would find some comfort and utility in John Stuart Mills. And I can't imagine a less effective rebuttal to Kant, or for that matter, Plato and his hand puppet Socrates than "I have a car, I don't need this nonsense now!" No, that's explicitly not how philosophy works. They definitely still need ethics (and therefore, philosophy) - all the moreso when, as Kitten Champion points out, they only need fake latin and the intent to kill to kill people.


they have magic, they dont give a rats ass about why when we jump in the air, we fall back down.
Are you implying that they don't care why things work the way they do merely because they have the ability to bypass some rules some of the time?


They dont care because with a wave of their wand, they WONT fall back down, so newton can go choke himself with his apples for all they care.
"The theory of relativity says I can ignore newtonian physics entirely."


They dont need a scientific explanation for why that pincushion is now a hedgehog, its magic, say the words, wave the wand, and it happens without understanding the what and why of it.
Magic that is well studied and understood is only as different from science as its authors allow it to be.

[Kitten Champion]

Well, one short answer is that Rowling might have thought it would be boring to have Harry, Ron, and Hermoine sit in ethics classes. A second short answer would be they just import ethics from the Muggles.

She just switched around mundane studies with magical ones without much consideration for what it would mean sociologically. I don't think it was necessary, she only discusses classes when they're relevant to the plot or when they offhandedly complain about how boring or pointless they are anyways. Having mathematics, English, or a humanities class wouldn't of mattered -- while it may have seemed fantasy breaking on a surface I think it would've made Hogwarts a little more relatable -- and she could have been creative in incorporating them.

Beyond that, I just think she missed an opportunity to make the whole hidden Magical world - if not into something more realistic - more fantastical, more distinct, more beyond our expectations. Changing the very structure of their education and not just the surface details could have been a major part of this. These Wizards and Witches should value knowledge more than anyone.



However, my take is that the wizarding world is simply lazy. They have goblins to handle the mundane economics of their age and house elves to do the dirty work. Simple magic spells fill in the gaps. Most of their jobs are within an inefficient bureaucracy. Even a "poor" family like the Weasleys is well-off compared to Muggle counterparts.

Outside of a few magic researchers and a handful of niche occupations like the Healers, it seems many wizards simply laze around and use magic. Perhaps this crutch leaves wizards inept to strive for anything approaching cultural improvements? Perhaps the wizards are a metaphor for a parasitic ruling class?

Plausible, although unless they have an orangutan librarian involved it's sort of uninteresting.

[Traab]

You don't need to learn academic writing to throw out 5 pages on how the 1920s laid the groundwork for the Great Depression, but it certainly helps. And that's not getting into how writing courses make your government and business reports that much more coherent. They definitely have a bureacracy. I'll grant that we don't have a lot of reason to think they have anything resembling 'corporations'. They are a kind of small market to start with...


Like I said, 'fewer crafters'. If you have a professional crafter group, there will be rules - and given that they're humans, 'as little magic as necessary' is likely to end up as one of them, for both practical and pride-based reasons.


Actually, Hermione would find Rawls' philosophy to be incredibly useful in her life. The Lovegoods would find some comfort and utility in John Stuart Mills. And I can't imagine a less effective rebuttal to Kant, or for that matter, Plato and his hand puppet Socrates than "I have a car, I don't need this nonsense now!" No, that's explicitly not how philosophy works. They definitely still need ethics (and therefore, philosophy) - all the moreso when, as Kitten Champion points out, they only need fake latin and the intent to kill to kill people.


Are you implying that they don't care why things work the way they do merely because they have the ability to bypass some rules some of the time?


"The theory of relativity says I can ignore newtonian physics entirely."


Magic that is well studied and understood is only as different from science as its authors allow it to be.

Yes, it would be better, but it isnt needed, therefore why bother? Thats how they tend to look at things, "If it aint broke, dont fix it."

Really? You think a group of professional crafters in a society thats based entirely around magic, would take pride in using LESS magic to do their jobs? "Bah! We might as well hire muggles to build our houses for us!"

And how would they FIND these philosophies? Admittedly plato is pre separation, but this is a world that has basically decided to jam their fingers in their ears and shout, "LALALALALA! There is no way muggles could do anything we would find useful!" As for needing ethics, of course they have them, the ethics are, "Do as the ministry says, not as it does." Its a world where the entire ruling class is stewing in its own corruption and likes things that way. You think they will bring in outside material or allow said material to be spread that points out how WRONG their way of life is?

Pretty much yes, because the laws of reality as we know them only apply to wizards when they want them to. They can break them literally on a whim. Gravity is meaningless when you can wave a wand and counteract it. When mass can no longer be measured because I used a weight reducing charm on something and shrunk it, when all the rules as we know them are suddenly fluid, what is the point of learning them at all?

Basically, yes.

And this author has written a world where magic is magic. We know that waving your wand in this direction causes the summoning charm to work, while doing it the opposite way causes it to fail, we dont know WHY though. Because its magic, not science. It stops being magic when it can be fully explained and understood and broken down into science. Thats why me typing a message you can read hundreds of miles away from me isnt magic, its science.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, Hermione would find Rawls' philosophy to be incredibly useful in her life. The Lovegoods would find some comfort and utility in John Stuart Mills. And I can't imagine a less effective rebuttal to Kant, or for that matter, Plato and his hand puppet Socrates than "I have a car, I don't need this nonsense now!" No, that's explicitly not how philosophy works. They definitely still need ethics (and therefore, philosophy) - all the moreso when, as Kitten Champion points out, they only need fake latin and the intent to kill to kill people.

Well, sure. The unforgivable Bad Latin Phrases are an issue. (One of them is almost as dangerous as a gun!) But let's not forget the whole thing where they have soul-devouring monstrosities guarding their prison. That seems relevant to their study or lack of study of ethics. :smallsmile:

Or their relatively casual approach to things like "Love Potions" and so on, though that's a pretty unpleasant line of thought, really.

[Mando Knight]

None of that needs to be taught at hogwarts though. And there is no need to add in science and philosophy and whatever other courses you think might be needed, because wizards DONT need them, they have magic, they dont give a rats ass about why when we jump in the air, we fall back down. They dont care because with a wave of their wand, they WONT fall back down, so newton can go choke himself with his apples for all they care. They dont need a scientific explanation for why that pincushion is now a hedgehog, its magic, say the words, wave the wand, and it happens without understanding the what and why of it.

I doubt those professional ward breakers, house builders, healers, or whatever could really explain why things work the way they do. If you asked, they would likely shrug and say, "They just do."

And how would they FIND these philosophies? Admittedly plato is pre separation, but this is a world that has basically decided to jam their fingers in their ears and shout, "LALALALALA! There is no way muggles could do anything we would find useful!" As for needing ethics, of course they have them, the ethics are, "Do as the ministry says, not as it does." Its a world where the entire ruling class is stewing in its own corruption and likes things that way. You think they will bring in outside material or allow said material to be spread that points out how WRONG their way of life is?
This is why the HP approach to magic scares me. They don't appreciate the why or the how of things, much less of people. I imagine that were the masquerade be exposed to the right Muggle, their world would be devastated.

[Rater202]

This is why the HP approach to magic scares me. They don't appreciate the why or the how of things, much less of people. I imagine that were the masquerade be exposed to the right Muggle, their world would be devastated.

Rowling did say that in a case of Wizard with the killing curse, and muggle with a shot gun, assuming that they are both in range, then the muggle wins every time...

[Starbuck_II]

Rowling did say that in a case of Wizard with the killing curse, and muggle with a shot gun, assuming that they are both in range, then the muggle wins every time...

Citation please because she also said guns do not function in areas of high magic.

[Rater202]

Citation please because she also said guns do not function in areas of high magic.

It was an interview. I can not find an exact quote at this time.

However, it is explicitly electronics don't work in areas of high magic, chemical reactions and mechanical movements work fine. otherwise, the watch harry had in goblet of Fire would have stoped working well before he wore it in the lake.

So, Citation on where she said that guns don't work in places of High Magic, Please.

(besides, that's irrelevant. for the argument, we are assuming that the fight is in a place were the gun works)

[SmartAlec]

Putting science aside, there don;t seem to be any magical equivalents to physics. Where's Theory of Magic? How does magic actually work?

The whole wizarding world seems kind of regressive and stagnant when you consider that a boy in his teens literally rewrote his entire potions textbook, not to mention developing his own custom dark magic spell, and this seems to have been through natural experimentation. Where do students learn how to do this?

It's possible that this is the truth of the wizarding world, that they know magic is a dead force in the world and simply work to keep it alive while some, like Voldemort, refuse to accept magic's time has passed.

[RPGuru1331]

Yes, it would be better, but it isnt needed, therefore why bother? Thats how they tend to look at things, "If it aint broke, dont fix it."

Sure, but how much moreso than everyone else?


Really? You think a group of professional crafters in a society thats based entirely around magic, would take pride in using LESS magic to do their jobs? "Bah! We might as well hire muggles to build our houses for us!"
Our society is based almost as completely around technology, but houses are still not built to be more complicated than they need to be to accomplish their goals - especially if your builder is honest and getting paid for the job and not the hour. Are they going to put more effort into making something harder to maintain for the same pay as putting less effort into it? I'm not saying they're going to build them entirely without magic - I'm saying they're not going to throw it in entirely willy-nilly, and if you want to minimize it at all (And you probably do, since it'd be easier and cheaper to maintain in many ways), you'll need it to, in some ways, exist like a normal house.

Further, for someone positing that they're so packed full of magic that they only exist thanks to magic, there's not a lot of evidence for it from what we've seen of the Weasley's house, Sirius' pad, and the Malfoy's house. It's Hogwarts that works halfway like an escher painting, not the wizarding world in general.

Heck, Sirius comes from old money, and he did appear to live in a muggle-made home, just one that's been enchanted with defensive wards by the time we see it.


And how would they FIND these philosophies?
Hogwarts has room for thousands of books in its library, and to my knowledge most philosophers still print things on dead trees.


Its a world where the entire ruling class is stewing in its own corruption and likes things that way. You think they will bring in outside material or allow said material to be spread that points out how WRONG their way of life is?
I know it's popular to read dystopias into all children's novels, but...


Pretty much yes, because the laws of reality as we know them only apply to wizards when they want them to. They can break them literally on a whim. Gravity is meaningless when you can wave a wand and counteract it. When mass can no longer be measured because I used a weight reducing charm on something and shrunk it, when all the rules as we know them are suddenly fluid, what is the point of learning them at all?
The simplest, most straightforward answer is "The rules aren't gone or suspended; you're using a ruleset that isn't entirely understood and that interacts with them, and if you learn how they interact you can do different or more interesting things."

Further, that's the pure-utility answer on a societal level. There's the human answer as well: "Because I want to know." Those are two off the top of my head, in addition to the prior "Because my work still considers this useful"(which is a primary driver in real life society when it isn't curiosity.)


Basically, yes.
No, that's not how it works at all. Relativity didn't surplant newtonian physics on every level and in every way. Relativity said "Newtonian Physics was incomplete and failed to provide accurate answers in the following ways". Within a planetary mass, gravity still works the same.



And this author has written a world where magic is magic.
Then how are new spells developed (and they are, because we hear of folks doing it)? How does one refine a broom so that you have a new model year with specific (if perhaps minute) improvements?


Well, sure. The unforgivable Bad Latin Phrases are an issue. (One of them is almost as dangerous as a gun!)
I know it's important in a thread about what setting is most lethal that something is less lethal than a gun for about 30 different reasons, but for practical matters of day to day life, all you need is lethality and availability. Every wizard and witch has a wand, and they appear to all know the fake latin necessary to murder someone.


Or their relatively casual approach to things like "Love Potions" and so on, though that's a pretty unpleasant line of thought, really.
My memory might not be serving me too well, but I seem to recall the narrative said those were horrible?


But let's not forget the whole thing where they have soul-devouring monstrosities guarding their prison. That seems relevant to their study or lack of study of ethics. :smallsmile:
So who's going to catch you without witnesses? Better, without obvious motive? Magic explicitly subverts and aids stealth, so you can't just call it a day since the investigators have magic.

[Tavar]

Actually, the Dementor thing is at least partially explained: the number of dementors is in relation to the Human suffering in the world. And if one is destroyed, then a new one appears in the place of greatest suffering. So, to prevent random Dementor Attacks, Azkaban is created as the place of greatest suffering.


As far as the killing curse, it's important to remember that Britain has pretty strong gun control laws, and this is reflected in the laws regarding the curses. The fact that the Killing curse in particular seems to be part of several black magic rituals(horocruxes), and it's use requires you to wish the subject dead probably compound the issue. Other curses can be bad, but the Killing curse is proof that you wished to kill someone.

[Kitten Champion]

And how would they FIND these philosophies? Admittedly plato is pre separation, but this is a world that has basically decided to jam their fingers in their ears and shout, "LALALALALA! There is no way muggles could do anything we would find useful!" As for needing ethics, of course they have them, the ethics are, "Do as the ministry says, not as it does." Its a world where the entire ruling class is stewing in its own corruption and likes things that way. You think they will bring in outside material or allow said material to be spread that points out how WRONG their way of life is?


There is a rather obvious contradiction in that reasoning, namely that they're Christians. Regardless of what their theology actually entails, since that's a whole mess of issues and I honestly couldn't imagine what impact magic would have on it, Christ is the most influential moral philosopher in the history of Western Civilization and they do apparently acknowledge and celebrate him.


Putting science aside, there don;t seem to be any magical equivalents to physics. Where's Theory of Magic? How does magic actually work?

The whole wizarding world seems kind of regressive and stagnant when you consider that a boy in his teens literally rewrote his entire potions textbook, not to mention developing his own custom dark magic spell, and this seems to have been through natural experimentation. Where do students learn how to do this?


The Wizarding world wouldn't reflect our scientific understandings, but it would reflect the intellect and spirit of curiosity which underlies the human condition.

Unless they're the Eloi, in which case why should we care what the Morlocks do with them?

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, the Dementor thing is at least partially explained: the number of dementors is in relation to the Human suffering in the world. And if one is destroyed, then a new one appears in the place of greatest suffering. So, to prevent random Dementor Attacks, Azkaban is created as the place of greatest suffering.


As far as the killing curse, it's important to remember that Britain has pretty strong gun control laws, and this is reflected in the laws regarding the curses. The fact that the Killing curse in particular seems to be part of several black magic rituals(horocruxes), and it's use requires you to wish the subject dead probably compound the issue. Other curses can be bad, but the Killing curse is proof that you wished to kill someone.

Can dementors be killed in canon Potterverse? They can be driven away by Expecto Patronum, but I've never heard they can be permanently destroyed. New ones appearing seems independent of that.

[thubby]

well, there is a reason the muggles are the dominant people and the wizards are the ones in secret.

[Tavar]

Their numbers are not constant: they're said to breed in the 7th book, and in an interview Rowling said that, while immortal with respect to Age, their numbers can dwindle if their reproduction is lowered.

[Traab]

There is a rather obvious contradiction in that reasoning, namely that they're Christians. Regardless of what their theology actually entails, since that's a whole mess of issues and I honestly couldn't imagine what impact magic would have on it, Christ is the most influential moral philosopher in the history of Western Civilization and they do apparently acknowledge and celebrate him.




The Wizarding world wouldn't reflect our scientific understandings, but it would reflect the intellect and spirit of curiosity which underlies the human condition.

Unless they're the Eloi, in which case why should we care what the Morlocks do with them?

Dont they swear by merlins various body parts instead of by god or jesus? While they may have their root in christian morality because until the 1600's they lived in regular britain with the muggles, I dont think its exactly a codified set of morals, just they way they are raised to behave. They dont sit back and question morals or ethics or right from wrong, they are raised by their parents, and generally follow their parents ethical paths and accept them as right. Just look at ron versus draco as a good example. Both were raised by different sets of beliefs, and both accepted them pretty much whole hog. Very few witches or wizards tend to switch sides in the harry potter books, which implies they are basically set in stone and integrated in their side from birth. The malfoys only even remotely changed due to the rather extreme actions taken by harry in the last book. Heck, we cant even be sure they really did change or if it was just the same as last time. "Oh totally, we support the winning side, GO GOOD!"

[Kitten Champion]

Dont they swear by merlins various body parts instead of by god or jesus? While they may have their root in christian morality because until the 1600's they lived in regular britain with the muggles, I dont think its exactly a codified set of morals, just they way they are raised to behave. They dont sit back and question morals or ethics or right from wrong, they are raised by their parents, and generally follow their parents ethical paths and accept them as right. Just look at ron versus draco as a good example. Both were raised by different sets of beliefs, and both accepted them pretty much whole hog. Very few witches or wizards tend to switch sides in the harry potter books, which implies they are basically set in stone and integrated in their side from birth. The malfoys only even remotely changed due to the rather extreme actions taken by harry in the last book. Heck, we cant even be sure they really did change or if it was just the same as last time. "Oh totally, we support the winning side, GO GOOD!"

Except the Muggle-born act in the exact same way without any of that social conditioning for the above argument to make any sense. Harry (who was raised by Muggles) and Hermione's sense of ethics are blatantly modern Christian but it's never framed in those words because it's a kids book trying to avoid alienating its audience and wants to discuss love and empathy from its own perspective.

Although I would argue that Snape and Draco's actions are firmly rooted in Christian concepts of redemption, that's neither here nor there.

[Coidzor]

Can dementors be killed in canon Potterverse? They can be driven away by Expecto Patronum, but I've never heard they can be permanently destroyed. New ones appearing seems independent of that.

There's nothing that wizards can do to effect dementors aside from Expecto Patronum according to canon. What keeps them from turning on dark wizards when they don't actually need dark wizards to keep the other ones from expecto patronuming them back onto their rock in the North Sea or wherever Azkaban was (Arctic Sea? seemed like one of the two) I don't know. It's not like they'd have some kind of sense of loyalty or anything.

[Tavar]

Source on that? Going by the wiki, there are unspecified other defenses.

[Rater202]

Source on that? Going by the wiki, there are unspecified other defenses.

I would like to know if the wizards ever tried using the killing curse on a dementor. there's got to be at least one who hates them bad enough to do it.

[Coidzor]

Source on that? Going by the wiki, there are unspecified other defenses.

Huh, must be a different wiki. None of the ones I've seen even mentioned unspecified other defenses. I could link to the wiki I had most recently checked up on this the last time it was brought up on GITP, but then we'd just have two wikis arguing at each other.

I'm mostly going by what I remember from when it was discussed in the books.


Putting science aside, there don;t seem to be any magical equivalents to physics. Where's Theory of Magic? How does magic actually work?

The whole wizarding world seems kind of regressive and stagnant when you consider that a boy in his teens literally rewrote his entire potions textbook, not to mention developing his own custom dark magic spell, and this seems to have been through natural experimentation. Where do students learn how to do this?

I believe that one's actually an advanced course, so it's present, but it does make one wonder why it's only for advanced students rather than incorporated throughout their time there, since it feels rather like learning music for 4 or 5 years and only then learning anything about music theory for the next 2 or 3.

Presumably by being a bookworm and getting in enough to actually use the full run of the library. Hermione may or may not have invented a spell in her first year, but if she didn't, she discovered one that she probably

This is my favorite take on the whole killing curse vs. killing with other magic dichotomy. (http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/080328)


Rowling did say that in a case of Wizard with the killing curse, and muggle with a shot gun, assuming that they are both in range, then the muggle wins every time...

Muggles with shotguns, you say? (http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/080425)


And how would they FIND these philosophies? Admittedly plato is pre separation, but this is a world that has basically decided to jam their fingers in their ears and shout, "LALALALALA! There is no way muggles could do anything we would find useful!" As for needing ethics, of course they have them, the ethics are, "Do as the ministry says, not as it does." Its a world where the entire ruling class is stewing in its own corruption and likes things that way. You think they will bring in outside material or allow said material to be spread that points out how WRONG their way of life is?

Actually taking and arguing this puts yourself at odds with your own self for having taken the stance that Hogwarts is a perfectly fine school.

[Mando Knight]

Actually taking and arguing this puts yourself at odds with your own self for having taken the stance that Hogwarts is a perfectly fine school.

It's a perfectly fine school... compared to its society. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

It's a perfectly fine school... compared to its society. :smalltongue:

Its a perfectly fine school FOR its society. It does exactly what it needs to do, teaches the students how to survive in their world. My school never taught me how to survive in japan, does that mean my school sucked? Of course not.

[Tavar]

The source for the wiki sources one instance in a book where Harry is tasked by Snape to write about the defenses against dementors.

[Lamech]

Yeah, the killing curse is a bad way to kill people. I think its probably more about what it required to cast it. The crucio requires really wanting to hurt someone for the sake of causing pain. The killing curse is probably similar. If I fire a lighting spell at someone to torture them it doesn't have the same mental state as the pain curse. I could be torturing them simply because I really need the location of the nuclear bomb, but if I use the unforgivable one I must be seriously screwed up. At least that's my head cannon.

[thubby]

dark magic isn't just dark because of the moral turpitude of using it. there is something fundamentally corrupting about using it. it has real physical consequences on the caster, and presumably mental ones as well.

[Gnoman]

Putting science aside, there don;t seem to be any magical equivalents to physics. Where's Theory of Magic? How does magic actually work?


From the first book onward, it is explicit that relevant theory is part of the curriculum for all classes. Transfiguration requires pages upon pages upon pages of notes, Charms took weeks to prepare them to practice the levitation spell, and DADA seems to be half paperwork even before Umbridge. Later books continue to demonstrate this. In book 6, Hermoine gloats that Harry's annotated copy of the Potions book wouldn't help him with antidotes, as you have to know the theory behind them. (Although I question what good an antidote that takes an entire class session to prepare and can't be made ahead of time is going to do anybody).