Tarquin - Lawful GOOD?

[Jane_Doe]

(Warning: The following is intended as a work of comedy. Any SAN damage or loss of eyesight associated with reading the reasoning within these paragraphs is, while appreciated, purely a side effect of the pursuit of mirth. Please read at your own risk.)

I think comic #917 may finally lay to rest the long running debate as to whether Tarquin is Lawful Good or merely Lawful Neutral.

We've long speculated as to Tarquin's emphasis on order over all was motivated by a genuine desire to bring peace to a war-torn continent, or mere displeasure as to how untidy everything was, but his latest speech can, in my opinion, leave no doubt; he wants to bring meaning, real meaning, to everyone's life by finding them places in a genuinely epic story. I ask you, how can that be anything less than a remarkably generous gesture towards a frankly ungrateful peasantry that ought, by all rights, mean nothing to him? I would frankly start to question the definitions of anyone who would consider that anything but good.

Of course, no firm declaration can be made of any alignment based on a single action or statement - I mean, he could have said "I'm going to make everyone in this land dedicate their lives to Good, whether they want to or not!", and there's still a few oddballs who would somehow still think that Neutral... And admittedly, he could have simply been deluded about his own intent, if he spent the rest of the time, I don't know, pinching squirrels or whatnot. So we will, of course, have to review the rest of his record.

The biggest point, of course, is that he has dedicated his entire life to unifying a war-torn continent which had been ever-plagued by ruthless dictators into a single, efficient realm. Now, this hasn't been entirely without it's issues, but let us recognize the limits of his position - the Empire of Blood may be of considerable size, but it's mostly comprised of bloodthirsty savages, requires a considerable army to defend, and is located in the middle of a barren desert. It may look good on paper, but honestly, we can expect that Tarquin is practically living hand to mouth here, and only putting on the occasional decadent display of wealth to keep up appearances, lest he seem weak (and thus open to invasion).

Yes, he routinely betrays those who seek his aid, but this simply reduces the inevitable death toll - his short-sighted neighbors would never recognize the necessity of The Plan on their own, so he must persuade them by the teeth of the dinosaur. If a conveniently phrased statement will get them through the gates without a bloody siege, that just avoids some of the needless bloodshed necessary to get to that point.

Yes, his empire practices slavery on a massive scale - but it's only necessary in such a resource-poor society. There just isn't enough to go around, so circumstances demand that the food and goods must go to those best suited to improving their situation - and that those who would otherwise rebel against this necessary order be restrained for their own good, until such a time that there are goods enough for them as well. If there are those unwilling to improve their world, then it is better that they be compelled to, rather than just discarded out of hand, no?

Yes, he employs bloody gladiatorial fights to pacify the populace - but for such entertainment to be widely appreciated, we can only assume that the populace of the Empire of Blood was made up of bloodthirsty savages to begin with. Would these people truly be entertained by, say, theatre? I think it improbable. And given their tastes, how likely would they be to demonstrate their displeasure through bloody rioting? Too likely for my tastes, I would say.

Yes, the penalties for even minor transgressions are perhaps a bit harsh, but... Let us be blunt here, the Empire of Blood just can't afford extensive (and usually ineffective) dungeons, and with the per-capita average wages, fines are just going to lead to starvation instead. Gladiatioral fighting as a form of public service is just really the only practical option, regardless of whether it seems a bit harsh.

And yes, the Empire of Blood seems a bit of an imposing name, but... Let us not forget that this won't be the Empire's last name, and that it needs to blend in with their similarly-named neighbors. If he had instead named it the Empire of Please Stop Killing Everyone, he'd risk said neighbors realizing that he's just not playing the same game as them, and watching them band together to depose him again. How many more would die over stylistic differences then?

So I think we can all agree that while his empire has a few questionable elements that would push it closer towards Neutral, that there are reasonable points for all of them that push them back towards Good, and that the magnitude of the benefit his overall plan would bring would make it all unimpeachably Good.

But, well, a person can dedicate their entire lives towards spreading the Light of Pelor while still dedicating his free time towards setting orphans on fire - Tarquin might be fulfilling a heroic role, but people have pointed out that he can still a bit of jerk as a person. Well, I heartily contest that these so-called "blemishes on his personal record" are anything more than an elaborate act to hide just how good of a person he is, as I will proceed to demonstrate.

Of course, the first thing everyone points to is that, well, he literally set orphans on fire. Escaped slaves, technically, but well, yeah, they were probably orphans, given the average lifespan there. But let us be reasonable here! Escaped slaves, those who would seek the overthrow of their carefully structured society, risk throwing everything into chaos - not only do they deny their work towards the betterment of society, they demand the expenditure of precious resources in order to ensure they won't be a further threat, and they make others question their place in the system as well. Such a danger cannot be allowed to stand! And if you can combine goals by making it into a touching display for your son as well, that just limits your costs further, freeing up funds to ensure that The Plan may go ahead more smoothly. It was simple efficiency, nothing more.

And others, of course, point to the fact that he vivisected a phoenix for a feast. Now, I will admit, on the face of things, that does look a bit off. But let's be clear here - it was a banquet for some of the most powerful and influential Evil kingdoms in the realm. If he didn't serve something of ridiculous value, they would no doubt begin to question whether he could afford to pay for that vast army - begin questioning whether said army might desert at the first show of strength. Why should he invite senseless wars just because he was too cheap to serve good food? But, why would that food need be phoenix, you ask? Well, the reason is simple - besides being delicious, you only need a few dozen of them to serve each event, and as they are reborn every time they die, they can be reused for the next banquet, with fresh livers to serve the next set of guests. By living in an endless cycle of pain, these phoenixes spare countless other rare animals a senseless death, and greatly control the expenses of the empire, thus allowing unification all the faster. No doubt these phoenixes volunteered for this role, knowing how their lives would better serve the greater Good.

Of course, there are a few, more minor moments as well, like when he killed the mass-murderer Nale. I don't think this needs special elaboration - he clearly used Nale as a catspaw to deal with the sole Evil member of his team, Malack, to avoid putting his teammates through the needless grief of having to kill someone they spent years working with, even IF he would have turned their paradise into larder of human sacrifices for his god. Having done this, he then used that as an excuse to deal justice for Nale's countless atrocities, all committed once Nale regrettably separated himself from Tarquin's moral guidance. Nobody present would have believed his real reason of needing justice; but everyone understands the concept of vengeance.

As we can see, Tarquin has clearly gone to great length to keep up appearances, but a critical eye can reveal his true Moral core. But there is one fiddly issue, one minor bit of tricky presentation that can confuse even the most usually savvy of readers into thinking that Tarquin is another CE Miko - the fact that he stands in opposition to the ostenable heroes of the story, the Order of the Stick.

But, well, all this does, actually, is confirm that he is indeed a hero! Since, as careful as the Order has been to hide it, they are indeed the TRUE villains of the strip, and have been from the start!

Set aside for the moment that they stand in favor of perpetuating a racist society that persecutes those green of skin - the order, every member, are clearly the most villainous main characters since 8-bit theatre concluded!

Let us start with their violent ringleader Roy - he cheerfully murders sleeping goblins, lied to his sworn companions for personal gain, refused to save an abused and helpless blacksmith, turned a blind eye towards V's cold-blooded murder of a horse trader, willingly abandoned his sworn companions, routinely defied the lawful upholder of reality Miko, drove a high-level teleporting wizard to commit suicide after repeatedly offending his dignity, ignored the wise counsel of "angels", and has generally been a thorough jerk to everyone he has ever met. This is merely a sampling of his depravaties; were I to elaborate on the full length of his crimes, I would well exceed the character limit on this post.

Then there's the son of the poor General Tarquin (how disappointed he must be, to see both of his sons turn to Evil...), Elan - HE is actively attempting to undermine the linchpins of this world by destroying Gates. Indeed, he started the Order's mad quest by destroying the first one seen in the strip, giving them the idea! I quite think that to be more than enough, though I will point out that he willfully mocks the gods by comparing them to hand puppets, practically cheated on his girlfriend via a romantic subplot with a similarly evil ninja, and repeatedly mocked an order of Paladins (who are, albeit, ethically questionable themselves, not that Elan cares). Despite this, he is one of the better ones of the party, with a relatively short list of crimes to his name, but, well, his crimes are rather more severe...

This would be a good time to introduce the demon on his shoulder, however, Haley. As greedy as a dragon, and twice as cruel, she's robbed her sworn companions on a number of occasions, compared herself to pillaging high-seas murderers, openly questioned the point of rescuing people without reward, refused to help her sworn companion repair his ancestral relic unless she could rob sentient beings for it, considered selling her enemies into slavery, almost murdered helpless captives, and murdered her allies under banner of truce, amongst other things. Her list of crimes is nearly as long as Roy's, honestly, and is annotated out of the same concern.

Durkon, aside from being one of the primary enablers of the others, has some rather notable stains of his own. He condemned a poor woman to a life trapped in a loveless marriage with a cruel monster out of a misguided ideal of "law"! Likewise, he acted on multiple occasions to deceive the just heads of state that the party might continue to engage in their depravities - once going so far as to mock his god in a sham of a conversion for no Good reason. That said, his primary crime has been to ensure that the party avoids going just that little bit too far, and receiving their just punishments from the proper authorities.

V, though, V is the real star of the show. Guilty of multiple quasi-genocides, her cruel sense of humor has lead to many vicious murders by documents laden with traps, her own companions most frequently the target of her "mirth". She feels no qualms about disintegrating those who stand her way out of mere expedience, nor with flinging spells of mass destruction around with wild abandon. She went so far as to sell her soul for power, and abandon her family to free her of distractions. She seeks nothing but power, and doesn't care who has to suffer for it.

Belkar... Well, honestly, I can't say I care for halflings much (most have an alarming penchant for deception), but I can't really say that he's done much anything wrong. He's a pretty good person - I can't really tell why he's with this band of murderous vagabonds.

So, while it might at first glance appear that this is the story of the Stick's quest to destroy the world, it's pretty obvious that that's not how it's going to end, because, well, that would be a fairly depressing ending. So I think it's quite clear at this point that Tarquin is going to be revealed as the secret hero of the strip, redeem his only son, and proceed to deal with this Cylon problem after Elan explains just how dangerous the lich really is. The Giant has gone through a lot of trouble to hide this upcoming twist from us, but I think I've found where the strip is REALLY going!

(Disclaimer: This was all for funsies after I noticed a couple of buckets of whitewash and paint, please don't hurt me too much for this joke :P .)

(Note for clarity: if you see any unremoved references to "the last comic", this was meant to be posted a couple days ago when 917 was still the latest, but then my internet went out >_< ...)

[Kish]

(Note for clarity: if you see any unremoved references to "the last comic", this was meant to be posted a couple days ago when 917 was still the latest, but then my internet went out >_< ...)
Possibly you should have taken that as a sign that this post was an abomination that would lower the collective sanity of the Internet (a feat the unmasked face of Yog-Sothoth could not accomplish) if it ever saw the light of day.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

no.

none of that.

shame on you.

[Xelbiuj]

I'm going to dismiss all that without reading it and give a blanket, "no."
Seriously, why would you post this?

[oppyu]

I salute your detailed and thorough troll, good madam.

[Mike Havran]

The willpower required for writing that original post must have been granted by the steady flow of undiluted hatred towards Tarquin that runs rampant through the Playground these days. :smallwink:

[Nilan8888]

I find it annoying when interesting topics get posted (less death toll of the Empire versus the chaos of what there was before) that end in blargh conclusions (Tarquin the secret hero of the story).

I mean... what story ever has ended like that?

I think I'll propose this thread for lock-age.


EDIT: Plus... a lot about this OP looks suspicious anyway... seems a strange sort of 'joke'...

[F.Harr]

"(Disclaimer: This was all for funsies after I noticed a couple of buckets of whitewash and paint, please don't hurt me too much for this joke :P .)"

Oh. O.K.

[Fitzclowningham]

That's some high-quality tro...er, deliberately obtuse counterfactual speculation, there.

[Ermete]

Ahahahahaha....a nice apology of a tyrant (or attempt to) although i think this might be badly misinerpretated by the message board... :smallbiggrin:

[F.Harr]

Ahahahahaha....a nice apology of a tyrant (or attempt to) although i think this might be badly misinerpretated by the message board... :smallbiggrin:

I know I did at first.

[Jane_Doe]

Possibly you should have taken that as a sign that this post was an abomination that would lower the collective sanity of the Internet (a feat the unmasked face of Yog-Sothoth could not accomplish) if it ever saw the light of day.

Oh, do you mind if I take that as a signature ^_^ ? That's pretty much exactly what I was aiming for ^_^ .


The willpower required for writing that original post must have been granted by the steady flow of undiluted hatred towards Tarquin that runs rampant through the Playground these days.

Pretty much - after seeing a few claims that there were people who thought that Tarquin was somehow good, and thinking hard about how absurd a conclusion that would be, I thought it would be amusing for someone to actually try and seriously argue that.


Everyone else

Eh? It's pretty obvious that I was joking :smallconfused:. The writing style is obviously comical ("Worship Pelor whether they want to or not" being presented a "good" statement?), basic premise absurd, I included a specific disclaimer that I was joking, and the thread icon was a wink. Nobody thought this serious, right?

[Kish]

Oh, do you mind if I take that as a signature ^_^ ? That's pretty much exactly what I was aiming for ^_^ .
Go ahead....

[Gorfnod]

Stuff.....

Jane_Doe, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no cookies, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Mike Havran]

Jane_Doe, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no cookies, and may God have mercy on your soul.You might want to consider an option that the post was not meant completely seriously. Or just read the stuff in parentheses :smallsigh:

Edit:I missed the reference.

[Ghost Nappa]

We have been told of or have been told of implications of him permitting, performing or complying in, just about everything from war-mongering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)
tampering with Legal Evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) Public Assassination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) Backstabbing at an international level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html) torturing women into marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) (isn't that some variation on rape?) treason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)


:haley: I mean what the heck is it gonna take for you to get through your head that Tarquin is bad news? Do you need like, 200 foot tall flaming letters or something? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

[oppyu]

You might want to consider an option that the post was not meant completely seriously. Or just read the stuff in parenteses :smallsigh:

I believe his post was paraphrasing one of the less sucky Adam Sandler movies. Ah, the sweet mass confusion of internet sarcasm.

[F.Harr]

Eh? It's pretty obvious that I was joking :smallconfused:. The writing style is obviously comical ("Worship Pelor whether they want to or not" being presented a "good" statement?), basic premise absurd, I included a specific disclaimer that I was joking, and the thread icon was a wink. Nobody thought this serious, right?

That sort of think is easy to miss. I'm reminded of a CBS News report one April Fool's Day about spaghetti trees that a depressingly large number of people took seriously.

[Muenster Man]

Jane_Doe, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no cookies, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Appropriate Billy Madison reference! I got it!

[Nilan8888]

That sort of think is easy to miss. I'm reminded of a CBS News report one April Fool's Day about spaghetti trees that a depressingly large number of people took seriously.

...or that radio play of an alien invasion broadcast once upon a time...

[Mike Havran]

I believe his post was paraphrasing one of the less sucky Adam Sandler movies. Ah, the sweet mass confusion of internet sarcasm.Oh, OK then, I never saw any of them.

[Klear]

I find it annoying when interesting topics get posted (less death toll of the Empire versus the chaos of what there was before) that end in blargh conclusions (Tarquin the secret hero of the story).

I mean... what story ever has ended like that?

I think I'll propose this thread for lock-age.


EDIT: Plus... a lot about this OP looks suspicious anyway... seems a strange sort of 'joke'...

I agree. Besides, haven't this been already done? Like, 10 times?

[Ghost Nappa]

Eh? It's pretty obvious that I was joking :smallconfused:. The writing style is obviously comical ("Worship Pelor whether they want to or not" being presented a "good" statement?), basic premise absurd, I included a specific disclaimer that I was joking, and the thread icon was a wink. Nobody thought this serious, right?

Extremely Long OP with Title indicating Alternative Character Interpretation led me to the conclusion that it was a Tarquin-apologist-esque thread and not a joke.

Truly a case of tl;dr

[Ewig Custos]

I've read all of it. By my whiskers, that's good stuff!

Any thoughts on Xykon - Chaotic Good?

[Jane_Doe]

We have been told of or have been told of implications of him permitting, performing or complying in, just about everything from war-mongering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

Not, in and of itself, a necessarily evil act, if he is usurping the lands of evil rulers to bring a more benevolent and orderly society. To make an over-used comparison to another fantasy series, it wouldn't necessarily be evil for Aragorn to declare an invasion of Mordor, would it?


tampering with Legal Evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html)

Now, I'll be the first to admit that this was perhaps a bit Chaotic of Tarquin, in a land that can ill-suffer it, but... He was just seeing to it that a rather severe crime (mocking a high official, in a land that would descend into murderous bands of thieves if the high officials are no longer respected) is appropriately punished, without drawing more attention to the actual crime committed. It was all done in a thoroughly Chaotic manner, but I maintain that the ends were Good, and the means not Evil.


Backstabbing at an international level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html]"Public Assassination[/URL]

Overseeing such a turbulent land would naturally require a law enforcement agency that people wouldn't know to immediately flee. She was about to expose the Empire of Bloods most secret of law enforcements to thousands of people, and plunge the land into chaos; ought Tarquin have just stood by and let that happen? Or perhaps arrested (and presumably executed) the entire crowd for having heard the secret? It was a messy business, to be sure, but it was necessary. And besides, she was a revolutionary. She was Evil. He could thus have done much worse before we really need to think about what he did.


[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html)

Addressed in the original post :) .

[/quote]


torturing women into marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) (isn't that some variation on rape?)

I'm really not even going to touch that one for the purposes of humor :| . As far as I'm concerned, for the purposes of this joke, it never happened, as it's too squicky for me.


treason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)

Well, none of those were real rulers, more... Winners of the "figurehead for a decade" prize. No doubt a close examination of the agreements they signed before overthrowing the last ruler on behalf of the new would reveal that, on paper, none of these "rulers" had any real authority beyond the title of queen/empress/dictator/etc., and the right to sleep in the royal palace. Thus, they've been doing nothing more than acting within the boundaries of their lawfully granted authority - and since it's all for the greater good, a unified Western Continent, it's all for the betterment of the people anyway, no? Why should loyalty to a frequently evil fool who couldn't claim an empire on their own stand before the virtues of a land without war?


:haley: I mean what the heck is it gonna take for you to get through your head that Tarquin is bad news? Do you need like, 200 foot tall flaming letters or something? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

Order just isn't easy to maintain. It requires the occasional sacrifice from all of us.


I agree. Besides, haven't this been already done? Like, 10 times?

Not that I've seen, although I don't check the forums frequently. I'd be surprised if I was the first, given how obvious the joke, but I'd hope it's not played out yet. That said, though, I do hope I've at least covered new ground with the joke :) !


Extremely Long OP with Title indicating Alternative Character Interpretation led me to the conclusion that it was a Tarquin-apologist-esque thread and not a joke.

Truly a case of tl;dr

Hum. It IS a bit long... I guess I'll add an additional disclaimer at the top, then. In retrospect, I guess I ought have assumed many people might skip the rest, rather than skim ^^; .

[MikelaC1]

This was ABSOLUTELY hilarious. For those of you chastising the OP, have you no sense of humour? He obviously didnt mean it seriously.

[Reddish Mage]

I can say in all honesty that was one of the most insightful, and plainly best written pieces of analysis on Tarquin's alignment that I have read.

[mhsmith]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/nale.gifActually Tarquin was retconned into a Chaotic Good rebel, yearning to throw off the reputation of his evil kin.

[Gift Jeraff]

Very informative read. You've really changed the way I view the world.jkNOT

[Kish]

his evil kin.
.....Elan?

[Aolbain]

Extremely Long OP with Title indicating Alternative Character Interpretation led me to the conclusion that it was a Tarquin-apologist-esque thread and not a joke.

Truly a case of tl;dr

It was literary the first thing on the entire page. Not that easy to miss.

[Mike Havran]

It was literary the first thing on the entire page. Not that easy to miss.That first paragraph disclaimer wasn't originally there (I personally think it's a bit redundant)

[Gorfnod]

Jane_Doe, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no cookies, and may God have mercy on your soul.


I believe his post was paraphrasing one of the less sucky Adam Sandler movies. Ah, the sweet mass confusion of internet sarcasm.


Appropriate Billy Madison reference! I got it!

Yes my remark was simply a sarcastic response to a satirical report. I actually found the piece quite lovely and full of humor.

@Jane_Doe - I really think you should take the first paragraph back down. It honestly is more funny when people think its real.

[Spoomeister]

Personal preference, but in my limited experience: if you have to explain that something's a joke, it's not funny.

[FlawedParadigm]

I didn't require an explanation whatsoever, even prior to the disclaimer. I mean holy cow, the winking smiley was used for the thread and the title itself should give away that it's an obvious joke. It was already pointed out several times in the comic - well over a dozen now - that Tarquin could not possibly considered "good" by anyone capable of understanding the concept of goodness. At best, he is occasionally amiable, amusing, or admirably competent, but by no means "good."

That's a whole paragraph full of reasons the joke should have been obvious to anyone, before even getting to the content of the post. That anyone thought it could be serious in any way astounds and depresses me.

[Jane_Doe]

Any thoughts on Xykon - Chaotic Good?

Well, I recognize that there's a strong current of belief on this forum that being animated by the dark forces of the Negative Energy Plane, associating himself heavily with usually evil forces, and really being a bit of an abrasive person, would tend to leave him more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Good, I personally maintain that there's a strong argument in favor of his inherent goodness.

I mean, let's start with the biggest point - he's killed a lot of people. I mean, a LOT of people. Hardly a scene goes by without him Meteor Swarming someone. But let's take a close look at who he's usually flinging these meteors at - goblins, hobgoblins, and generally whomever else Redcloak can scrounge up to join the army. All of them tend to be evil, so Xykon is really doing a huge service to the world by killing these people, adding to the Goodness of the world by purging the Evil. Now, his detractors argue that this tends to be motivated by rather spurious reasons, if not outright malicious ones, and as such, it's doing Good for Not Good reasons, making him Neutral - but I would point out that nobody can be so bored as to exhaust his inner reserves of strength to wrench chunks of fire from the ether to kill his "allies" that frequently. He's clearly doing it deliberately, seeing just how many evil beings he can forcefully disassociate himself from without endangering The Plan.

Which, let us also point out, is a mark heavily in his favor - acquiring a superweapon so powerful that he can intimidate the gods into giving the goblins a level playing field, including (presumably) protection from killing them being considered automatically Good. Ending the persecution of an entire sentient race is a rather big stroke in his favor. Now, his detractors tend to talk about how he doesn't actually know that this is part of the plan, and thinks he's getting several free countries out of the deal instead of anything noble. However, I would point out that Xykon is remarkably more intelligent than he often appears, and has been working with Redcloak for years - I would be shocked to find that Xykon hasn't learned of the real mission years ago, and simply doesn't find it necessary to mention. It's really a pretty irrelevant point when they mostly consider how to execute said plan, after all. And as for the countries he hopes to acquire out of this... Well, it's not really evil to be well-compensated for deeds of a suitably epic nature, no? It's really no different from taking a dragon's hoard after you've killed it.

I would also point out a truly selfless act on Xykon's part - offering to let his soon-to-be-vanquished foe Roy hop off his dragon rather than senselessly killing him. CN individuals are far more ruthless than that - he's just bump off the "obstacle" and be done with it. Instead, Xykon offered to let him live, without offending his pride even, regardless of how foolish it would have been, if Roy would just stop trying to destroy reality. Roy, egomaniacly bent on destruction, refused... But it was the offer that counted.

I would also point out the marvelous act that Xykon put on for V, when she tried to kill Xykon permanently. Rather than just hitting her with a meteor swarm while she thought she was safely invisible, he quietly instructed the MitD to teleport them to safety, after making it very clear that future such attacks would not be treated in such a merciful manner. CN individuals don't give second chances - Xykon does.

Now, some question whether or not it is appropriate for Good individuals to wage war on other Good individuals, such as an order of Paladins - however, I would point out that the war was not on the Sapphire Guard per se, but rather Azure City, which we know was lead by a society of evil aristocrats, and was manipulated by a treacherous ruler who was feigning senility. Clearly, Shojo had been abusing the Sapphire Guard for ages, tricking many of them into falling by sending them on senseless crusades against children, and arbitrarily arresting random adventuring parties. Azure City was obviously a rogue state tramping roughshod over its neighbors, who no Shojo no doubt was planning on turning into an expansionist armor in its own right once the Sapphire Guard was suitably weakened. All Xykon did, besides attempting to acquire a weapon powerful enough to end the so-called "order" of the gods, was to end a dangerous threat to the Southern continent before it could metastasize. It wasn't pretty, no, but that's how Chaotic characters get things done.

I believe that deals with the biggest points, but there are a number of minor things that Xykon has done over the years that might seem a bit... Off, for a heroic character. Like, say, dressing a bunch of zombies up in spandex to have them fight. Those, I'll simply say that he's surrounded by evil, and has to blend it, lest they view him as a threat - it's all an act, nothing more.


I really think you should take the first paragraph back down. It honestly is more funny when people think its real.

Eh, funnier or not, I'd rather avoid causing people unnecessary aggravation; I mean, my own amusement isn't really raising anyone's blood pressure over, really :) .

[F.Harr]

I can say in all honesty that was one of the most insightful, and plainly best written pieces of analysis on Tarquin's alignment that I have read.

that ain't saying much. :)

[The MunchKING]

torturing women into marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) (isn't that some variation on rape?)

Maybe she was a masochist and was into that kind of thing? :smalltongue:

[Tetsujin-28]

Read all of it. Still better written and supported than 90% of the theories espoused here.

[137beth]

That first paragraph disclaimer wasn't originally there (I personally think it's a bit redundant)

I first saw this before the disclaimer was there.
I read two sentences, and knew it was a joke. And a good joke. No disclaimer needed, especially if you read the whole thing.

I came back and read the whole thing today. This is awesome:smallsmile:
(And I'm flabberghasted that people could think it was serious.)

[veti]

I came back and read the whole thing today. This is awesome:smallsmile:
(And I'm flabberghasted that people could think it was serious.)

That's one of the fundamental laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) of the Internet.

Thank you, Jane Doe. You've not only given us several good laughs, but also resurrected the almost-forgotten and much-misunderstood art of "trolling", which too many people nowadays seem to equate with "insulting" or "just being a ****".

[War-Wren]

That's one of the fundamental laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) of the Internet.

Thank you, Jane Doe. You've not only given us several good laughs, but also resurrected the almost-forgotten and much-misunderstood art of "trolling", which too many people nowadays seem to equate with "insulting" or "just being a ****".

Here, here! Proof positive that you don't have to be an aggressively annoying derriere muncher to be a troll. Both articles are wonderfully written and I am more convinced than ever of Tarquin's and Xykon's inherent (and misunderstood) goodness! :smalltongue:

[Nilehus]

I knew it wasn't serious, and still got irritated.

Bravo, OP. 10/10, would get trolled again.

[Lord Raziere]

Meh. I myself realized it in the first few sentences, if not at the title. 5/10. got a little chuckle, but thats it. its thorough but too obvious.

[War-Wren]

Meh. I myself realized it in the first few sentences, if not at the title. 5/10. got a little chuckle, but thats it. its thorough but too obvious.


I'm going to dismiss all that without reading it and give a blanket, "no."
Seriously, why would you post this?

Apparently not. Success troll is successful :smallwink:

[Lord Raziere]

Apparently not. Success troll is successful :smallwink:

now this post, is a good 7/10. its short, and the emoticon at the end hammers in how irritatingly smug you sound. This one mildly irritates me, but unfortunately I recognize this kind all too often.

[Gil-Galad II]

...routinely defied the lawful upholder of reality Miko,

Is it sad that I'm surprised that single sentence hasn't killed the forums?

Nice post, btw, very well thought out and clearly constructed arguments. The only point you missed is that Tarquin is obviously pretending to be a villain, in order to lure both heroes and villains to his Empire...then, he can make the world a safer place, by destroying the villains, and giving the heroes protection, aid, etc.

Oh, and the bunny punching? Obvious Monty Python reference, cruelly misconstrued by Tarquin haters!

Hopefully, all the Tarquin defenders can now feel secure in the knowledge that their case is so blatantly obvious, with no possible rational arguments remaining that Tarquin could be considered a monster. :smalltongue:

[Jane_Doe]

Nice post, btw, very well thought out and clearly constructed arguments. The only point you missed is that Tarquin is obviously pretending to be a villain, in order to lure both heroes and villains to his Empire...then, he can make the world a safer place, by destroying the villains, and giving the heroes protection, aid, etc.

Ooooh, good point, I'm not entirely certain how I missed that! I understood that he was feigning villainy as protective camouflage against his actually evil neighbors, but hadn't given any thought to the additional benefits such an act afforded him... I'll have to remember that in the future :smallsmile: .


Meh. I myself realized it in the first few sentences, if not at the title. 5/10. got a little chuckle, but thats it. its thorough but too obvious.

Well, it was a bit over the top, but I went with such a style for two reasons - the first is that a more restrained approach risked people missing the joke, which wouldn't be terribly entertaining.

The second, and arguably more significant, reason is that I just wouldn't know how to make more restrained defense of Tarquin's actions funny. His actions being patently evil require that defenses of his actions have to be either absurd or blatantly immoral, both of which I can do with an exaggerated style, but which would fall flat with my writing capabilities if I had to make use of them completely straight. Here's how I would have attempted to write that paragraph regarding the escaped slaves if I were using a more restrained style (although it still feels a bit exaggerated to me):

Of course, the first thing everyone mentions is that he set a set of escaped slaves on fire. But really, given the environment, this act isn't nearly as horrific as it might at first appear. As every slave-owning society has found, showing mercy to escaped slaves simply degrades the perception of dominance that is used to keep slaves working - had Tarquin acted otherwise, it would have encouraged more slave escapes and strikes, possibly even revolts. The chaos that could be caused through a display of mercy here would have simply caused more evil than setting these ones on fire would have - he did what he had to, nothing more. And if he could make a touching sign for his son... Well, that just helped take his mind off of the horrors those in such a position must sometimes enact.

Original reposted here for comparison:

Of course, the first thing everyone points to is that, well, he literally set orphans on fire. Escaped slaves, technically, but well, yeah, they were probably orphans, given the average lifespan there. But let us be reasonable here! Escaped slaves, those who would seek the overthrow of their carefully structured society, risk throwing everything into chaos - not only do they deny their work towards the betterment of society, they demand the expenditure of precious resources in order to ensure they won't be a further threat, and they make others question their place in the system as well. Such a danger cannot be allowed to stand! And if you can combine goals by making it into a touching display for your son as well, that just limits your costs further, freeing up funds to ensure that The Plan may go ahead more smoothly. It was simple efficiency, nothing more.

The version I used in the original feels more entertaining to me, although I could see a number of people preferring the revised version.

How would you have made the argument? And what argument would you have advanced in defense of the phoenix feast? To be clear, I do mean these as serious questions - I have no doubts that there were many ways and many styles with which to justify Tarquin's actions, and am curious as to how some of the methods I was unable to use would have sounded :smallsmile:.


Other, regrettably nonspecific, people who enjoyed it

Thank you everyone who found the OP to be entertaining :smallsmile:. It was a lot of fun to write, so I'm glad it was able to bring a smile to others :smallsmile:.


Other nonspecific people who did NOT enjoy it

Well, I do hope you didn't spend too long reading it ^^; ...

[Koo Rehtorb]

He's clearly LN but nice troll.

[Reddish Mage]

My good OP. You are clearly wrong, not in that claiming that Tarquin is good, but that he is Lawful. While on the surface Tarquin might appear Lawful to the inattentive reader. A deeper anlysis shows that, quite clearly, Tarquin cannot be anything other than Chaotic.

First let us look at his role in the Empire. The lawful leader of the Empire of Blood is in fact none other than her portliness, the empress of blood. The laws of the empire, and the loyalty of the its citizens, lies in the ample folds of her scales. Tarquin is supposed to be nothing more than a humble civil servant, dedicated to defending the realm from invasion. In fact, he considers himself above the laws of the nation, and constantly uses his position for nepotistic purposes. If that doesn't convince you this man has an utter contempt for the law, then the fact that he is a traitor, working with a shadowy group of conspirators to keep control of the various nations of the continent away from their lawful leaders and into the hands of a unauthorized cabal.

Tarquin says he is for order and continental unification, but has his actions borne that out? In actually he is attempting to see the continent united under not one but THREE empires, that are in fact enemies, that he intends to see overthrown from time to time so as to throw off potential heroes as to the conspiracies involvement. Nothing is more chaotic than war, and Tarquin wishes to see war occurring over and over again throughout his life. You might say, "ah but didn't Tarquin and the rest of their group intend to hand over the empires to Malack in death?" Indeed, should Malack have gained control there would be no war, and his alternative, while it is cliche having already been done on Star Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon), would indeed be an orderly regime dedicated to peace and the celebration of the cycle of life (especially that last part). However, we know that, in fact Tarquin actually intended to be overthrown by a hero the entire time, creating anew the chaos that he is supposedly dedicated to stopping.

One might claim that at the very least, Tarquin's intention to be defeated by a hero is submission to the orderly requirements of the narrative, but this too little, too late attempt at "lawfulness" is utterly and embarrassingly undermined by his attempt to subvert even the requirements of narrative by nepotistically selecting his own son for this role! Not to mention that Tarquin, in attempting to hijack our narrative for the task, is attempting to wipe out all the other heroes including the true hero "Roy" (who the oracle has confirmed "the campaign revolves around him" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)), in a blatant attempt to make himself the final encounter in violation of all the rules of good storytelling.

I submit to you Tarquin, a family first dealer of secrets, lies, and deceit, who doesn't believe that laws apply to him and who in fact actively attempts to undermine the laws of the Empress, the narrative, and the game-rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) (there is no way a melee build can be that good!), all for the sake of escalating a never-ending cycle of conflict between heroes and villains.

If that's not Chaotic than D&D's rules for defining alignment must be horribly vague, and, in fact, contradictory.

[SaintRidley]

I'm really not even going to touch that one for the purposes of humor :| . As far as I'm concerned, for the purposes of this joke, it never happened, as it's too squicky for me.




If you want a freebie - Tarquin attracts super kinky women and he just tries his best to play along to their elaborate fantasies.

Boom, spun. into emotionally giving, great lover Tarquin.

[137beth]

My good OP. You are clearly wrong, not in that claiming that Tarquin is good, but that he is Lawful. While on the surface Tarquin might appear Lawful to the inattentive reader. A deeper anlysis shows that, quite clearly, Tarquin cannot be anything other than Chaotic.



Well done!

Jane_Doe, may I request a proof as to why Belkar is Lawful Good?

[Domino Quartz]

Well done!

Jane_Doe, may I request a proof as to why Belkar is Lawful Good?

Lawful Good? Belkar? No, he's obviously Neutral Good. It's just obvious, and therefore does not require an argument.

[137beth]

Lawful Good? Belkar? No, he's obviously Neutral Good. It's just obvious, and therefore does not require an argument.

Neutral? No no.

Belkar is, above all, consistent. The Giant has said that consistency is one of the defining features of the Lawful alignment. Roy acknowledged Belkar's consistency after Hinjo found him guilty, and again in the arena pit.
Now, one could argue that Belkar admits he is chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html). But to what end? He was making sure that the Laws surrounding restraining orders were properly upheld, including the requirement that forms are filled out accurately. Additionally, he promised to uphold Rodriguez' right to habeas corpus.
Thus, Belkar is clearly Lawful.

[Reddish Mage]

Neutral? No no.

Belkar is, above all, consistent. The Giant has said that consistency is one of the defining features of the Lawful alignment. Roy acknowledged Belkar's consistency after Hinjo found him guilty, and again in the arena pit.
Now, one could argue that Belkar admits he is chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html). But to what end? He was making sure that the Laws surrounding restraining orders were properly upheld, including the requirement that forms are filled out accurately. Additionally, he promised to uphold Rodriguez' right to habeas corpus.
Thus, Belkar is clearly Lawful.

I can submit further proof of Belkar's inherent lawfulness: the geometry of the character concept (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html) and his predictable straightforward mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) Both traits cannot be said to be other than patterned, orderly, and lawful.

[Jane_Doe]

My good OP. You are clearly wrong, not in that claiming that Tarquin is good, but that he is Lawful. While on the surface Tarquin might appear Lawful to the inattentive reader. A deeper anlysis shows that, quite clearly, Tarquin cannot be anything other than Chaotic.

First let us look at his role in the Empire. The lawful leader of the Empire of Blood is in fact none other than her portliness, the empress of blood. The laws of the empire, and the loyalty of the its citizens, lies in the ample folds of her scales. Tarquin is supposed to be nothing more than a humble civil servant, dedicated to defending the realm from invasion. In fact, he considers himself above the laws of the nation, and constantly uses his position for nepotistic purposes. If that doesn't convince you this man has an utter contempt for the law, then the fact that he is a traitor, working with a shadowy group of conspirators to keep control of the various nations of the continent away from their lawful leaders and into the hands of a unauthorized cabal.

Tarquin says he is for order and continental unification, but has his actions borne that out? In actually he is attempting to see the continent united under not one but THREE empires, that are in fact enemies, that he intends to see overthrown from time to time so as to throw off potential heroes as to the conspiracies involvement. Nothing is more chaotic than war, and Tarquin wishes to see war occurring over and over again throughout his life. You might say, "ah but didn't Tarquin and the rest of their group intend to hand over the empires to Malack in death?" Indeed, should Malack have gained control there would be no war, and his alternative, while it is cliche having already been done on Star Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon), would indeed be an orderly regime dedicated to peace and the celebration of the cycle of life (especially that last part). However, we know that, in fact Tarquin actually intended to be overthrown by a hero the entire time, creating anew the chaos that he is supposedly dedicated to stopping.

One might claim that at the very least, Tarquin's intention to be defeated by a hero is submission to the orderly requirements of the narrative, but this too little, too late attempt at "lawfulness" is utterly and embarrassingly undermined by his attempt to subvert even the requirements of narrative by nepotistically selecting his own son for this role! Not to mention that Tarquin, in attempting to hijack our narrative for the task, is attempting to wipe out all the other heroes including the true hero "Roy" (who the oracle has confirmed "the campaign revolves around him" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)), in a blatant attempt to make himself the final encounter in violation of all the rules of good storytelling.

I submit to you Tarquin, a family first dealer of secrets, lies, and deceit, who doesn't believe that laws apply to him and who in fact actively attempts to undermine the laws of the Empress, the narrative, and the game-rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) (there is no way a melee build can be that good!), all for the sake of escalating a never-ending cycle of conflict between heroes and villains.

If that's not Chaotic than D&D's rules for defining alignment must be horribly vague, and, in fact, contradictory.

(Spoiler tagged for length)

Your arguments detailing Tarquin's chaotic nature are persuasive, but upon careful reflection, I believe there are a number of explanations that explain how these seemingly contradictory actions do indeed further the greater Law.

In regards to the first point, I would mention that throughout our own history, there have been a number of supposedly powerful positions with Very Important Names who, while allegedly in charge, actually had almost no actual power, those functions being exclusively the purview of those supposedly lesser in authority - the Emperor of Japan is a typical example of such, though we may also point to the modern-day Queen of England, the later Holy Roman Emperors, and the Emperor of China. I make these comparisons to establish that, while "The Empress of Blood" sounds very powerful at first glance, it is quite likely that it's just a symbolic position to provide constant motivation to the people via public appearances and such, while the important, competent people carry out the important business free of distractions. Indeed, it is quite plausible that everyone on the continent (absent a certain unintelligent snake) knows this, and it's simply a cultural misunderstanding on the part of the other continents and the readers that would lead us to misunderstand the roles involved. Such a militarized society would, after all, expect the military leader to be the one in charge, rather than the civilian.

As for the allegation of nepotism, I would have to point out the dearth of Good individuals of sufficient competency in the region - it is not that Tarquin is favoring his sons per se, so much as he (unfortunately inaccurately) believed his sons to be Good, and thus wished to give them as much assistance as possible under the framework of the laws with which he his functions - and, indeed, the assistance that he is lawfully able to provide is vast, as he is the lawful practical ruler of the Empire of Blood. This is not nepotism, however, beyond his unreasonable willingness to whitewash his sons deeds, but rather fulfilling his (self-imposed, given the society) obligations to support Good adventurers in staving off threats to the realm. He would have done the same for the Good bard Alen and the Society of the Twig had they come through; it is simply that, given the setting, there just aren't any such Good adventuring bands, and as such, paints an incomplete picture of Tarquin's willingness to help.

And as for conspiring with the other heads of state... Well, he is in control of the foreign policy of the Empire of Blood. He is free to set that policy however he wishes, if he believes that policy is in the best interests of the continent and the empire. He's just fulfilling his job duties, quite a lawful act.

Now, seeing the continent cast into eternal war, that I will grant you appears Chaotic at first appearance, however... I would posit that this is, in fact, an act of Good, and merely Neutral on the Law/Chaos axis. You see, the continent is predominantly Evil, and Tarquin is, regrettably, mortal. With options to fix that, certainly, but almost all of those available in this setting are Evil acts that Tarquin would never deign to consider. Wars on a vast scale would normally be considered an Evil thing, it's true... But Tarquin does not desire eternal war for its own sake, although it would keep the other nations relaxed in the way that a giant empire wouldn't. Rather, he favors the wars as a means of killing the vast numbers of Evil people in the Western continent (as we know it is an overwhelmingly Evil place) who would otherwise be keeping the continent Evil for years to come. Does anyone bat an eye when adventurers go down into Moria to clear out the goblins there? This is the same premise, merely done more... Efficiently. As for how it relates to Law and Chaos, well, Tarquin knows that this stability that he has been working to build will necessitate that someone replace him after he eventually dies... And that under the circumstances, his replacement is unfortunately likely to be Evil, and undo all that he has made. By killing vast numbers of Evil people first, he changes those probabilities, and can ensure that a properly Good individual take his place. "Furthering Order, so long as it is a Good one" sounds pretty Neutral to me, as it still favors Law, merely favoring certain types of Law.

As for Tarquin "attempting to hijack the narrative", he is merely blindly groping for his own role in this play, and doing his best to further that role. He is simply acting on limited information, and so making an embarrassingly obvious miscalculation in trying to hand this story to his son. But, well, it would be far too egotistical for him to consider that he himself is the true hero here - it's just showcasing his fundamentally humble nature. It wouldn't be a proper story should such heroic virtues as that not occasionally prove burdensome. And thank you for bringing up the Oracle's quotes - isn't it a magnificent bit of foreshadowing? "THINKS" the campaign revolves around him... When really, he's just the prequel for the grand Story of Tarquin. How subtle of the author, hinting at twists to come hundred of strips later :smallsmile: !

So, I retort, Tarquin is indeed a schemer and plotter... But so are all heads of state, for the games they involve themselves in are more intricate than ours. And yes, he does believe himself to make the laws... But that is simply because he does. And yes, he does misjudge the narrative... But he would have to be an egomaniac to do otherwise. And yes, Tarquin is a suspiciously competent fighter - but all protaganists get plot weapons :smallsmile: .

All of this, all of these suspicious actions... All so that he can finally build a lasting peace, an enduring order, long after he himself is dead. To act in a way that even he himself finds questionable, to ensure that his legacy will persevere for centuries to come - I ask you, how could that be considered anything but lawful? I say to you, that if the alignment rules of D&D contest this point, then they may as well have written nothing but the names of the alignment, they so patently contradict common sense!

(I'll come back for Bitterleaf's alignment proof later - he's in so many comics, it's a bit troublesome to identify every proof and counterpoint, and he's something of a simple character, leaving most points related to him somewhat obvious, and occasionally repetitive - "And here, he killed another dozen Evil beings, another clearly Good act, and he cracked a joke about it to keep his companion's spirits up, a Good act even if they are evil." can only be written so many times, after all.)

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

This is just plain awesome. There's no other way to describe this.

[Sabeki]

This is perhaps the funniest thing O have read in ages. Really hilarious (not sarcasm).
Now to fond a way that Xykon is really Chaotic Good...
EDIT: Never mind, found that.:smallbiggrin:

[Ghost Nappa]

It was literary the first thing on the entire page. Not that easy to miss.

2 Fun Facts:

1)The underlined word should be "literally."

2)The OP was edited after I posted, but before you did.

[FlawedParadigm]

I think the problem here is that Tarquin was right when he first said he didn't fit into the alignment system. We'll have to make a new alignment for him, maybe Lawfuller Goodest?

[multilis]

Jane_Doe, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no cookies, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I disagree. The topic was quite obvious, if not the first sentence was, the info was on topic, if you don't like it you could have easily skipped over it.

It dealt with parts of comic from "devil's advocate" position.

Your post seemed to me much less "useful" to anyone, rather than a simple disagree you post an absurdly extreme insulting disagree. Not everyone was dumber for reading it.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

It was a joke, and a reference to something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 There is the link to the thing that poster was referencing.

[F.Harr]

I think the problem here is that Tarquin was right when he first said he didn't fit into the alignment system. We'll have to make a new alignment for him, maybe Lawfuller Goodest?

I don't know. I'm thinking that was just Tarquin being self-agrandising.

[Kish]

Self-aggrandizing, Tarquin, the avatar of modesty? Bite your tongue.

[zlefin]

most amusing and delightful I say. A good and entertaining read; thumbs up.

[FlawedParadigm]

I don't know. I'm thinking that was just Tarquin being self-agrandising.

Protip: If you see a post by me with absolutely horrible grammar, go ahead and assume it's facetious. I don't type that poorly. Often, anyhow. ;)

[Gil-Galad II]

Next challenge for someone braver and with more time than me: Tarquin; Good Dad or Best Dad?

[Reddish Mage]

Next challenge for someone braver and with more time than me: Tarquin; Good Dad or Best Dad?

A father who cared for his son and was constantly there for him despite his busy career! Who brought his child to work and raised him to rise to the top of his profession. Who put aside his entire schedule when his other long-lost son arrived! Who attempted to actually get one of his son's forgiven for murder?

The Father of the Year plaque (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) if anything, makes light of how great a dad Tarquin was. More like "the best father in the ENTIRE story!"

[137beth]

A father who cared for his son and was constantly there for him despite his busy career! Who brought his child to work and raised him to rise to the top of his profession. Who put aside his entire schedule when his other long-lost son arrived! Who attempted to actually get one of his son's forgiven for murder?

The Father of the Year plaque (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) if anything, makes light of how great a dad Tarquin was. More like "the best father in the ENTIRE story!"

Well, he is a better father than either Eugene or Ian...

[Solara]

Today I have learned that Jane Doe and Reddish Mage are amazing, while 90% of the rest of the community lacks basic reading comprehension and/or a sense of humor.

...actually, TBH I figured out that last part a long time ago. :smallwink:

[Gil-Galad II]

Well, he is a better father than either Eugene or Ian...

A better father than Eugene...Sh'WHAT?!?

Eugene, who, despite his misgivings, allowed his son to follow his dreams and attend Fighter College? Eugene, the father who opposed Heaven itself to ensure that his son was not wrongfully incarcerated? Eugene, who kindly passed on information to Roy about Xykon's survival...possibly saving the ENTIRE WORLD? Heck, he even puts on a brave face when Roy orders him never to visit their family again in the afterlife, despite the angst it must cause Eugene...and he does this because of his love for his son. When I think of Eugene, I can't help but be overwhelmed by his sheer paternal love and care.

Man, and I thought the Tarquin haters were wacky - I'd never realised some people disliked Eugene!

As for Ian...he's a ****. :smallbiggrin:

[WindStruck]

Next challenge for someone braver and with more time than me: Tarquin; Good Dad or Best Dad?

He's the best mother too. Well the last guy that called him one got life in prison. But still.

[FlawedParadigm]

He's the best mother too. Well the last guy that called him one got life in prison. But still.

So then he's a motherfather?

[Kish]

He's the best mother too. Well the last guy that called him one got life in prison. But still.
But that was such a short sentence.

[F.Harr]

Today I have learned that Jane Doe and Reddish Mage are amazing, while 90% of the rest of the community lacks basic reading comprehension and/or a sense of humor.

...actually, TBH I figured out that last part a long time ago. :smallwink:

Sigh. It was an easy mistake to make.

[Reddish Mage]

Any thoughts on Xykon - Chaotic Good?

I have to disagree with you and Jane Doe here. Sure, Xykon's actions seem to indicate he's very good. It's a simple mathematical calculation, the sheer number of evil creatures the Lich has killed! The number of good guys Xykon has killed in comparison de minimis! Everything too has furthered the cause of Red Cloak's wonderful plan!

Yet the difference between Tarquin and Xykon is that Tarquin actually intends to be Chaotic Good. Tarquin may say things that indicates he's all about order and law, but we know from my earlier post that in his heart, he is a creature of Chaos through and through.

Xykon on the other hand didn't kill those poor creatures to further the cause of good, he did so solely for his amusement! As far as furthering the plan. That's not something Xykon care about or even knows about. I mean, Redcloak killed his sweet lover Tsukiko so she wouldn't squeal and then convinced him she had betrayed him! I mean, come on guys, are we reading a different comic here!?

Anyway, if we are going by his actions then Xykon would be Lawful Good. He's practically the George Washington of Gobbotopia!