"But what´re you gonna do-never do anything important again?"

[Yadugara]

This jokingly asked question made me think if it this really could happen:
V decides that it is too risky to do anything important from now on because the fiends could interfere in critical situations and myabe leaves the order or holds herself back in the future ,for example in battles.

I think this would fit good to the recent character grow of V and in contrast to her old "absolute arcane power" -attidude.

[Morquard]

Possible, but there's another option.

He tries to provoke the Fiends into taking over, to get the last two out of the way. Not sure how, but he might figure it out

Also, up till this point he had thought he was safe till he actually died and then his soul goes downstairs. That's why he kept it a secret. Now that he knows, he might share the details of the deal with the other members of the Order.

[FireJustice]

A trap. a mental prision.

To make second guess every step s(h)e does.

Using his(her?) overanalizing mind againts itself.

In then end, if you don't do nothing with fear to get possessed. Evil wins.
If you do and they take your soul and you fail. Evil wins.

The message he's trying to convey is that they already won. It's futile to struggle. To make V feel bad, feel helpless, the ball is in their court now.

That's what demons/devils/daemons do.

[zimmerwald1915]

The message he's trying to convey is that they already won. It's futile to struggle. To make V feel bad, feel helpless, the ball is in their court now.

That's what demons/devils/daemons do.
It's especially effective when they're right.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

A trap. a mental prision.

To make second guess every step s(h)e does.

Using his(her?) overanalizing mind againts itself.

In then end, if you don't do nothing with fear to get possessed. Evil wins.
If you do and they take your soul and you fail. Evil wins.

The message he's trying to convey is that they already won. It's futile to struggle. To make V feel bad, feel helpless, the ball is in their court now.

That's what demons/devils/daemons do.

all that is required for evil to triumph is for neutral Elves to do nothing.

[Unisus]

Actually, V should be rather safe whenever things have to be done which are not related to the gates. I mean, the IFCC has only two further claims, and they want to use them to reach their goal. They will need one for the next gate, so maybe they have one spare. But as soon as they take it, V would be able to estimate the risk of being put out of order. So V has just to do half-important things - important enough to be helpful, but just not important enough for the IFCC to step in - and if they do, afterwards V has gained a new bit of freedom.

[Shale]

And every time they don't call in the debt, there will be a little nagging doubt that maybe it's because V was doing what they wanted in the first place...

[Snails]

That V is going to be screwed in two future efforts is a sunk cost.

Therefore forcing the IFCC's hand is still a non-losing choice.

Opting to do less important stuff instead of super important stuff guarantees a net loss for hir goals.

All that can be done at this point is to prepare his teammates, so they are know not count on hir.

[Porthos]

It's especially effective when they're right.

Except they're not. Their own reflections on the matter state that they have a '50-50' shot at him.

If V can pull himself out of his self inflicted pity party who knows where he might go. Not saying he shouldn't have been reflecting on things? But wallowing in pity? No, not exactly.

In a way though his (from his perspective) premature trip to hell might be the best thing to happen to the elf. If he gets a serious case of the Wake Up its, that is. By being given a glance at what his eternal future might be like and now realizing the full folly of his past actions it might, just might, spur him into fully confronting what he did and then going out to make the world a better place. And by doing that he might just make himself a better elf as he does it.

Like it or not, there is hope for that elf. But the first step he needs to take is to realize that wallowing in anguish is nearly as bad as lusting for the power that got him into this mess in the first place.

Thankfully for him, he does indeed now have a Jiminy Cricket on his shoulder to help him. Even if said Cricket raven can be occasionally distracted by the shiny. :smallwink:

[F.Harr]

Actually, V should be rather safe whenever things have to be done which are not related to the gates. I mean, the IFCC has only two further claims, and they want to use them to reach their goal. They will need one for the next gate, so maybe they have one spare. But as soon as they take it, V would be able to estimate the risk of being put out of order. So V has just to do half-important things - important enough to be helpful, but just not important enough for the IFCC to step in - and if they do, afterwards V has gained a new bit of freedom.

I don't know. they don't have to snatch 'em when they're doing something important. Just when they MIGHT.

[Porthos]

That V is going to be screwed in two future efforts is a sunk cost.

Therefore forcing the IFCC's hand is still a non-losing choice.

Opting to do less important stuff instead of super important stuff guarantees a net loss for hir goals.

All that can be done at this point is to prepare his teammates, so they are know not count on hir.

This is almost right. It is indeed a sunk cost. And trying to outwit the IFCC is a fool's game. The correct way to handle any known manipulator is not to try to outwit or outguess them (unless you're a manipulator yourself). They're almost always banking on that, and since they're better at it than you playing on 'their turf' usually doesn't make sense.

No, let them play their game while V plays his. We'll see who wins in the end.

As for 'not counting on V'? That's my 'not quite'. If V tells Roy about this (and he really should), he can factor it into his plans as a variable. It's not that Roy wouldn't be able to count on V, it's letting him prepare for the possibility that V might be taken out of the deck in critical situations. It lets Roy have an In Case of Emergency, Break Glass backup plan if/when V is Trumped.

[Bulldog Psion]

V would be a fool to drop everything because of that statement. As noted hhere, he or she should just warn Roy.

[stsasser]

Except they're not. Their own reflections on the matter state that they have a '50-50' shot at him.

If V can pull himself out of his self inflicted pity party who knows where he might go. Not saying he shouldn't have been reflecting on things? But wallowing in pity? No, not exactly.

In a way though his (from his perspective) premature trip to hell might be the best thing to happen to the elf. If he gets a serious case of the Wake Up its, that is. By being given a glance at what his eternal future might be like and now realizing the full folly of his past actions it might, just might, spur him into fully confronting what he did and then going out to make the world a better place. And by doing that he might just make himself a better elf as he does it.

Like it or not, there is hope for that elf. But the first step he needs to take is to realize that wallowing in anguish is nearly as bad as lusting for the power that got him into this mess in the first place.

Thankfully for him, he does indeed now have a Jiminy Cricket on his shoulder to help him. Even if said Cricket raven can be occasionally distracted by the shiny. :smallwink:

Meh. V is all broke up about killing humanoids. Still hasn't shown a shred of remorse about the Reptilia extinguished. Languishing about in elf angst is the least of its problems. :vaarsuvius: :smallfurious:

[Fish]

I disagree. It should be possible to outwit the IFCC, given enough inside information. At the moment, V doesn't have that information. But beating the devil ... well, that's a very popular story element. I can think of several off the top of my head where the devil is outwitted by a clever mortal.

[zimmerwald1915]

Meh. V is all broke up about killing humanoids. Still hasn't shown a shred of remorse about the Reptilia extinguished. Languishing about in elf angst is the least of its problems. :vaarsuvius: :smallfurious:
That was true up until 866 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html). Unfortunately, and against all expectations, the Giant managed to pull this particular rug out from under the hatedom.

[stsasser]

That was true up until 866 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html). Unfortunately, and against all expectations, the Giant managed to pull this particular rug out from under the hatedom.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Let Vaarsuvius find its upward path.

[AKA_Bait]

I disagree. It should be possible to outwit the IFCC, given enough inside information. At the moment, V doesn't have that information. But beating the devil ... well, that's a very popular story element. I can think of several off the top of my head where the devil is outwitted by a clever mortal.

This would, of course, mesh quite well with the Sabine flips on the IFCC storyline that so many seem to be hoping for.

[The Oni]

I suspect Vaarsuvius is gonna lose it again by the end of this. Madness, you see, is like gravity...

[Spoomeister]

This jokingly asked question made me think if it this really could happen:
V decides that it is too risky to do anything important from now on because the fiends could interfere in critical situations and myabe leaves the order or holds herself back in the future ,for example in battles.

I think this would fit good to the recent character grow of V and in contrast to her old "absolute arcane power" -attidude.

I'd even take it a step further: removing herself from the field of battle to go make peace with her mate, and live out a quiet life, renouncing the search for more power or her further contribution to the Snarl/Gate quest... that would be a hell of a great closure to her character arc, and a logical conclusion for her to draw. She would need to set aside her massive ego to do it, but then getting yanked into Hell at a moment's notice and forced to helplessly watch events unfold could probably help with that. It would also likely satisfy that one poster who's been harping in every other thread about wanting to see V gone.

[F.Harr]

V would be a fool to drop everything because of that statement. As noted hhere, he or she should just warn Roy.

The very smart do foolish things, too. We're just not used to it.

[Forikroder]

This jokingly asked question made me think if it this really could happen:
V decides that it is too risky to do anything important from now on because the fiends could interfere in critical situations and myabe leaves the order or holds herself back in the future ,for example in battles.

I think this would fit good to the recent character grow of V and in contrast to her old "absolute arcane power" -attidude.

the only thing neccesary for evil to win is for neutral elves to do nothing

the IFCC can take him off the board 2 more times, but he can still be a positive influence for the rest of the time and if he leaves the OoTS is down a member and no arcane spellcaster, im pretty sure having an arcane spellcaster (who may disapear) is bettern then having no arcane spellcaster ever

[snikrept]

We might see a lot more casting out of V. Holding spell slots in reserve for a critical moment isn't a good strategy when there's a strong possibility you won't be able to act in any critical moments.

[F.Harr]

"the IFCC can take him off the board 2 more times, but he can still be a positive influence for the rest of the time and if he leaves the OoTS is down a member and no arcane spellcaster, im pretty sure having an arcane spellcaster (who may disapear) is bettern then having no arcane spellcaster ever"

It may also bring Psteve Psmith into the mix.

"We might see a lot more casting out of V. Holding spell slots in reserve for a critical moment isn't a good strategy when there's a strong possibility you won't be able to act in any critical moments."

Point.

[JSSheridan]

As I posted in the main discussion, my theory is the IFCC was lying about them not being able to control V's body during the time they had her soul. They decided to shield it and leave it laying because there wasn't anything they could do that would benefit them this time.

Next time it could go like,

V: You said you couldn't control my body!
IFCC: We lied.

But even if their terms did say that, they could just do what they want next time and say, "That was true originally. We are altering the deal. What are you going to do?"

[Shale]

Technically they didn't say they couldn't control V, just that they can't insert another soul into V's vacant body.

"You assumed, we saw no need to correct. Again. Don't you ever learn?"

[DiamondHooHaMan]

As I posted in the main discussion, my theory is the IFCC was lying about them not being able to control V's body during the time they had her soul. They decided to shield it and leave it laying because there wasn't anything they could do that would benefit them this time.

Next time it could go like,

V: You said you couldn't control my body!
IFCC: We lied.

But even if their terms did say that, they could just do what they want next time and say, "That was true originally. We are altering the deal. What are you going to do?"

I think I've read somewhere that there are courts in hell in the DnD verse where mortals can argue their deals have been broken by demons.

not POSITIVE. but I think that's right.

[sr123]

The IFCC has had some great lines, but this one is my favorite yet.

I watched Star Trek TNG: The High Ground (1990) yesterday, which about terrorism. The central theme was not exactly the Prime Directive (don't interfere with underdeveloped worlds), but becomes a variant. The terrorist group has a line for the Enterprise, who were just delivering medicine, but end up being attacked: you got involved the second you entered orbit (watch the episode - it's available online). But then the question the viewer has is, what were they supposed to do, not deliver medicine?

Here, Varsuvius may yet look at this from the Star Trek perspective: to interfere when you know you are not living within the society itself is "invariably disastrous" (TNG: Symbiosis). Varsuvius knows s/he will be unable to live within the important fight.

So Picard may justifiably raise the possibility that yes, when lives are at stake, Varsuvius should not try to do anything important, even if s/he knows that it saves lives in the immediate term.

[Synesthesy]

The only thing I see is that V is every step nearer to a bad ending. I think that (s)he will think about what to do, if (s)he needs to retire, to continue helping the order, or just to suicide.

It remember me Faust's story, when he decided to retire to a pure life just to make no more sin, even if he was already dammned. Maybe V will think something near that. Maybe with Kamelot music, maybe not.

[Ghost Nappa]

What if Belkar's going to die because Vaarsuvius gets pulled out of a fight? :smalleek:

[Morquard]

The danger is not V doing anything important. It is V doing something mission critical that nobody else can do or step up to do.

As long as somebody else can do it if the fiends take over again, you can plan for that. Maybe by having someone else do it in the first place. Maybe by having someone stand by to take over.

Of course I fully expect them to get into situations where none of that is possible.

[sr123]

What if Belkar's going to die because Vaarsuvius gets pulled out of a fight? :smalleek:

In all seriousness, did the Belkar-kissing-V-never-happened thing ever get some kind of plot closure? It was mentioned several times, yet never seemed resolved, so I think, Nappa, you may be on to something.

[King of Nowhere]

From my point of view, the thing is simple.
If V tries to do important stuff and is blocked by the ifcc, he will fail at something important twice.
But if he never tried anything important, he will fail FOREVER.

So the smart thing to do is tell roy so that he can prepare for it, and then go on. at most, the ifcc can call their time twice. there is so much V can help with in all the other time.

There is a saying in chess: "the threat is stronger than its execution". In chess, it means that sometimes you can take a pawn, but if you do, the opponent will get counterplay and you won't be threatening anything anymore; while if you don't do it, the opponent will have to keep defending that weak pawn for all the rest of the game, and that may give you better chances elsewhere. In this case, the better choice for your opponent could be to just abandon the pawn and try to get counterplay.
Applied to V, it means that the threat of keeping him out of the games is stronger than actually keeping him out. If V keep staying out of important stuff because of that, he will always stay out and the ifcc still will be able to collect their debt. If V just goes on, the ifcc will collect their debt and take some advantage from that, but then V will be able to freely work to stop them.

Also, I believe in xykon philosophy about two things mattering: power, and willingness to sacrifice. Especially, power is the best solution against someone who can reliably outsmart you. send enough power at him. in this case, it means for V to do as much important stuff as possible, so the ifcc won't be able to stop all of that. they can only stop V 2 times.

[Katuko]

I like the idea that was presented in some other thread; of V casting a bunch of buff spells etc. before some climatic battle, and when the IFCC pulls him down to keep him from affecting the outcome he'll just smugly state that he's already cast the spells he wanted to cast.

Incidentally, Sabine may have made things easier for V at the moment. She broke their scrying device (the fancy TV), making them have to wait for the Teevo recording to actually know what's going on. Until they get a new TV (or a minion, scrying spell etc.) that can directly report without using Gate, they are effectively blind (and apparently holding off on more mundane office work that might keep them busy for a little while).

[sr123]

Until they get a new TV (or a minion, scrying spell etc.) that can directly report without using Gate, they are effectively blind.

And impotent, because they can only hold him for 20 minutes (36 more minutes left total), so they really have to hit him exactly at the right moment. Qarr and Sabine do not appear to be able to just pop in and out exactly where V is unless they discern his location some other way beforehand, right?

I'm guessing V would need Epic magic to block the TV scrying, yeah? Would the cloister headband that Xykon stole from Dorukan work?

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm guessing V would need Epic magic to block the TV scrying, yeah? Would the cloister headband that Xykon stole from Dorukan work?

They were able to scry through Cloister with the HDTV before.

[tyckspoon]

I'm guessing V would need Epic magic to block the TV scrying, yeah? Would the cloister headband that Xykon stole from Dorukan work?

Even if Cloister worked to block that scrying, V can't cast it - the headband doesn't cast the spell, it's just a Focus item for it. V would have to get to Epic levels and research Cloister on his own before he could use it.

[Jay R]

This jokingly asked question made me think if it this really could happen:
V decides that it is too risky to do anything important from now on because the fiends could interfere in critical situations and myabe leaves the order or holds herself back in the future ,for example in battles.

If V continues serving as before, the IFCC can stop V from taking part twice more. If Vaarsuvius does what you suggest, it stops V from taking part 1,000 times more. This would clearly be worse. Nobody with even a scarp of common sense could fall into that trap.

So, yeah, it sounds like something Vaarsuvius might do.

[F.Harr]

The danger is not V doing anything important. It is V doing something mission critical that nobody else can do or step up to do.

As long as somebody else can do it if the fiends take over again, you can plan for that. Maybe by having someone else do it in the first place. Maybe by having someone stand by to take over.

Of course I fully expect them to get into situations where none of that is possible.

'Cause of of story.


If V continues serving as before, the IFCC can stop V from taking part twice more. If Vaarsuvius does what you suggest, it stops V from taking part 1,000 times more. This would clearly be worse. Nobody with even a scarp of common sense could fall into that trap.

So, yeah, it sounds like something Vaarsuvius might do.

It's a great smart-person trap.

[Ghost Nappa]

In all seriousness, did the Belkar-kissing-V-never-happened thing ever get some kind of plot closure? It was mentioned several times, yet never seemed resolved, so I think, Nappa, you may be on to something.

I hope I'm wrong.