How potent is imbue arrow for casters?

[CyberThread]

Now take this from the viewpoint of a level 18 wizard/cleric with two levels of arcane/divine archer.

How potent is the imbue arrow for what it qualifies for, any decent spell selection on it?

[A_S]

AMF is the most common choice. It's not the worst. Probably not worth two caster levels in most cases, but it can be a fun little trick.

Then there's this classic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122). Note that Imbue Arrow overrides casting times.

[Maginomicon]

Now take this from the viewpoint of a level 18 wizard/cleric with two levels of arcane/divine archer.

How potent is the imbue arrow for what it qualifies for, any decent spell selection on it?

Depending on who you ask, Wings of Flurry would be great for it, but that's a sorcerer-only spell.

(Personally, I interpret Wings of Flurry as being able to throw the AoE to 30 ft away from you and then center there, which allows it to have a maximum reach of up to 60 ft. (despite the inane "area effects stop at the spell's maximum range" RAW BS), but I understand why some would say it centers on you.)

You could also use it for centered-on-you buffs by aiming for a particular square (AC 5).

Imbue Arrow would have a shorter range than a Long Range spell at CL 20 (1200 ft.) but longer than a Medium Range spell at CL 20 (300ft.) unless you use a composite longbow and flight arrows ( (110 ft.+25 ft.)*10 RI = 1350 ft. ). There may also be a few ways to increase the range increment magically. With no such magical range increment buffs, that's about half the effective range of a typical real-world sniper rifle (~2625 ft.). Use True Strike the round before (ATK +20) and you'll break even on the range increment penalty (ATK -2*10 RI).

[A_S]

(Personally, I interpret Wings of Flurry as being able to throw the AoE to 30 ft away from you and then center there, which allows it to have a maximum reach of up to 60 ft. (despite the inane "area effects stop at the spell's maximum range" RAW BS), but I understand why some would say it centers on you.)
So, I'd be the first to agree with you that spell descriptions would be easier to read if they'd written them all as "range = farthest away you can have the spell be centered." The actual rules do lead to pretty counter-intuitive spell description blocks.

But, given the actual rules, that "range 30/radius 30" thing is literally the only way it's possible to describe a PBAoE/"nova" spell that hits everything within a certain distance of the caster. I don't think it's fair to consider that interpretation "RAW BS" when there's no other way to describe such spells within the framework of 3.5's rules.

I mean, look at the descriptions for Bless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm) or AMF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). Do you consider it BS to interpret those spells as having to be centered on the caster?

*edit* Oh, and re: this thread, it doesn't matter how you interpret it when it comes to Arcane Archers. Imbue Arrow explicitly works to throw spells that can normally only be centered on the caster.

[Sith_Happens]

I mean, look at the descriptions for Bless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm) or AMF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). Do you consider it BS to interpret those spells as having to be centered on the caster?

Both of those spells specifically say "centered on the caster." In fact, most such spells do, either in the "area" line or the description. Which leaves one wondering why they felt the need to have the range be an absolute cutoff on the effect, but that's hardly the strangest rule in the game.:smallsigh:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Control Winds/weather is also really good for imnue arrows since it bypassed the 10 minute casting time.

[CyberThread]

that is pretty cool, and may fit an elf cleric more then


wait....

ACF's?

[A_S]

Both of those spells specifically say "centered on the caster." In fact, most such spells do, either in the "area" line or the description. Which leaves one wondering why they felt the need to have the range be an absolute cutoff on the effect, but that's hardly the strangest rule in the game.:smallsigh:
Yeah, that's true. I think it's pretty obvious that Wings of Flurry is intended to work the same way, but it would be nice if they'd clarified it a little more.

...or if they'd just made "range" work the way it's supposed to :\ .


ACF's?
What about them? Nobody in this thread has mentioned ACF's yet. Are you asking which ones would be good for an Arcane Archer? Or did you misread AMF (Anti-Magic Field)?

[nedz]

So, I'd be the first to agree with you that spell descriptions would be easier to read if they'd written them all as "range = farthest away you can have the spell be centered." The actual rules do lead to pretty counter-intuitive spell description blocks.


That's not quite correct.


Range

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

[CyberThread]

Yeah, that's true. I think it's pretty obvious that Wings of Flurry is intended to work the same way, but it would be nice if they'd clarified it a little more.

...or if they'd just made "range" work the way it's supposed to :\ .


What about them? Nobody in this thread has mentioned ACF's yet. Are you asking which ones would be good for an Arcane Archer? Or did you misread AMF (Anti-Magic Field)?


<_< yeah that AMF was my bad, but while we are at it, sure ACF's :P

For a cleric seems good to have an elf cleric ACF's but seems as far as wizards are concerned, it might be best to stay normal, although am curious on prc's that change on how spells are cast

[John Longarrow]

The feat farshot gives you 1.5 range. Toss that on a comp longbow of distance and you can really reach out and touch someone with a fireball.

Not as good as real world artillery, but able to mess with enemy encampments from a long enough distance that no one should be able to return fire.

[holywhippet]

Consider if you were leading an army, you could drop a mass cure X wounds spell on any squad that was taking a beating from a distance. Likewise if you were facing an army you could blast them with mass inflict spells (or mass cure spells if they are undead).

[A_S]

That's not quite correct.
Yeah, I know it's not how it actually works; I'm saying that if they'd made the rules work that way (which they didn't), spell descriptions would be easier to read.

So, AMF would be range 0, or maybe range personal, and radius 10. Fireball would either be able to affect stuff 20 feet farther away (which wouldn't be a huge deal) or they could have just adjusted all the ranges to be [radius] shorter, if they wanted everything to work exactly the way it does now.

That would allow spell descriptions to avoid this ridiculous "range 30 but actually range 0" stuff that trips people up with spells like Wings of Flurry.

I guess reasonable people can disagree on this. Maybe some would find it more unintuitive that a spell with a range of 100 feet could affect a target 120 feet away. But for me, the way the rules currently work is really confusing, and I always have to mentally subtract the radius from the printed range to get what I think of as the spell's range.

[Maginomicon]

The feat farshot gives you 1.5 range. Toss that on a comp longbow of distance and you can really reach out and touch someone with a fireball.

Not as good as real world artillery, but able to mess with enemy encampments from a long enough distance that no one should be able to return fire.
Okay so a 110 ft composite longbow, doubled to 220 ft with the distance quality (and has at least a +1 to hit), increased by another half by the Far Shot feat to 330 ft, and finally the flight arrows give another 25 ft so 355 ft range increment. Ten range increments is 3550 ft, which is far over the effective range of a typical real-world sniper rifle (~2625 ft) but doesn't come remotely close to the current real-world record of ~8120 ft. Really, that's okay though, because even if you trade out the flight arrow for a slaying arrow (bringing the range down to 3300 ft), it's far enough away that you can take out a high-priority target and be in the next county before anyone finds where you shot from.

Besides, for the purposes of imbue arrow, you don't even need a slaying arrow.

[unseenmage]

How might one "spam" this Imbue Arrow for maximum arrow-ey goodness?
Might a Custom Magic Item be in order?

Scratch that, thought it was a spell.
Though a way to gain additional uses of it would be nice.

[Snowbluff]

You can also use it to trap people in Prismatic Spheres. >:D

[John Longarrow]

Summon Monster at long range can be real fun to. The monster "Attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities." Just because your opponents are 3000 feet away..... :smallcool:

[holywhippet]

Summon Monster at long range can be real fun to. The monster "Attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities." Just because your opponents are 3000 feet away..... :smallcool:

I'm not sure you can actually use it like that. The description says it is for area spells and summon monster isn't a spell that works over an area per se. Fireball would work because it works over an area.

[Snowbluff]

Hey guys, what do you think about using splitting arrows?

[Prime32]

Now take this from the viewpoint of a level 18 wizard/cleric with two levels of arcane/divine archer.

How potent is the imbue arrow for what it qualifies for, any decent spell selection on it?Try glyph of warding (www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10643).

[herrhauptmann]

Hey guys, what do you think about using splitting arrows?

Awesome. And abuseable.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the DM says that only one arrow gets the imbued spell.

[Snowbluff]

Awesome. And abuseable.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the DM says that only one arrow gets the imbued spell.

Only one arrow is being imbued. There just happens to be 2 when you shoot! :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

AMF is the most common choice. It's not the worst. Probably not worth two caster levels in most cases, but it can be a fun little trick.

Then there's this classic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122). Note that Imbue Arrow overrides casting times.
Are we talking about 3.5 or Pathfinder? It isn't clear, but if the latter they fixed that bit of stupidity. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer#TOC-Imbue-Arrow-Su-)
How might one "spam" this Imbue Arrow for maximum arrow-ey goodness?
Might a Custom Magic Item be in order?

Scratch that, thought it was a spell.
Though a way to gain additional uses of it would be nice.
You can use it as many times per day as you have area spells to cast, so I'm not sure what you're asking. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Are we talking about 3.5 or Pathfinder? It isn't clear, but if the latter they fixed that bit of stupidity. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer#TOC-Imbue-Arrow-Su-)

What the incompetents at Paizo call a bug, I call a feature. The spells that are area of effect and have a long casting time are really rare. I can't name one past Fimbulwinter. It's not worth fixing, AFAIC.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What the incompetents at Paizo call a bug, I call a feature. The spells that are area of effect and have a long casting time are really rare. I can't name one past Fimbulwinter. It's not worth fixing, AFAIC.

Guards and Wards.

My favorite impractical spell that you never see get cast by the party, since they're basically always the ones assaulting a compound/dungeon. But with AA, one bow shot in the BBEG's hideout and all of a sudden, you have home field advantage. :smallcool:

[Snowbluff]

Guards and Wards.

My favorite impractical spell that you never see get cast by the party, since they're basically always the ones assaulting a compound/dungeon. But with AA, one bow shot in the BBEG's hideout and all of a sudden, you have home field advantage. :smallcool:

Hmm... I do like this spell. I hardly ever get to use it, though. Then again, this is something you are doing at a pretty high level.

[nedz]

Yeah, I know it's not how it actually works; I'm saying that if they'd made the rules work that way (which they didn't), spell descriptions would be easier to read.

So, AMF would be range 0, or maybe range personal, and radius 10. Fireball would either be able to affect stuff 20 feet farther away (which wouldn't be a huge deal) or they could have just adjusted all the ranges to be [radius] shorter, if they wanted everything to work exactly the way it does now.

That would allow spell descriptions to avoid this ridiculous "range 30 but actually range 0" stuff that trips people up with spells like Wings of Flurry.

I guess reasonable people can disagree on this. Maybe some would find it more unintuitive that a spell with a range of 100 feet could affect a target 120 feet away. But for me, the way the rules currently work is really confusing, and I always have to mentally subtract the radius from the printed range to get what I think of as the spell's range.

The real crazy stuff happens when you start to use Sculpt Spell.
Compare Fireball and Lightning Bolt — two very similar spells.
Now I can sculpt a Fireball into a 120' line, but if I sculpt a Lightning Bolt into a 20' spread then it has a fixed range of 120'

[Renegade Paladin]

What the incompetents at Paizo call a bug, I call a feature. The spells that are area of effect and have a long casting time are really rare. I can't name one past Fimbulwinter. It's not worth fixing, AFAIC.
You can't? Hallow, control weather, glyph of warding, the aforementioned guards and wards, hallucinatory terrain, blizzard, death hail, and several others not springing immediately to mind would like a word with you. :smallconfused:

[Snowbluff]

You can't? Hallow, control weather, glyph of warding, the aforementioned guards and wards, hallucinatory terrain, blizzard, death hail, and several others not springing immediately to mind would like a word with you. :smallconfused:

So spells that are better replicated with other spells. Got it. I guess I missed them because Fimbulwinter has a more impressing effect. So how many of these would make you think "OMG he's two CL behind and breaking the game!"? How many of those are present in the PF spell list? How many of them fit under both categories?

[CyberThread]

how comparable is it to a divine archer, using druid or cleric?


Not ready to ask about archivist as they get everything anyways

[Piggy Knowles]

I made this list a while ago, for obvious reasons. All area spells with long casting times that can be reduced to a standard action via Imbue Arrow.

AREA SPELLS WITH ABSURDLY LONG CASTING TIMES

Anticipate Teleportation
Apocalypse from the Sky (I was really hoping this would be first on the list - stupid Anticipate Teleportation!)
Blinding Glory (Long duration Daylight in a huge area... pretty cool to shout "let there be light!" and fire this off, but really not worth a level 9 spell.)
Consecrate Battlefield
Control Weather (The best effects still don't come online for another ten minutes, unfortunately, but this is the spell that made me look into this as a tactic.)
Desecrate Battlefield
Energy Transformation Field
Evil Weather (This one might actually be worthwhile.)
Fimbulwinter (Are you bored of weather spells yet? I am!)
Forbiddance
Glyph of Warding
Greater Anticipate Teleportation
Greater Glyph of Warding
Guards and Wards (Fun!)
Hallow
Hallucinatory Terrain
Hide the Path
Hindight (Know everything about an area, instantly.)
Mage's Private Sanctum
Nature's Rampart
Raise Hummock (Holy geez this is an expensive spell to cast - hope you like swamps!)
Screen
Shadow Landscape
Shifting Paths
Skyrift (Would be way cooler without the crazy focus.)
Spread of Savagery (Cool spell, but what is up with the material components from BoVD? Brain fluid? Really?)
Unhallow
Utterdark
Weather Eye (Probably the stupidest possible use of this.)
Zone of Respite

Re: how comparable it is to a divine archer, note that imbue arrow doesn't actually specify that the spell must be arcane or divine - you can actually already use it with divine spells as written. (However, you'll need some arcane casting to qualify.)

My favorite arcane archer build these days combines arcane archer with chameleon - imbue any spell up to sixth level, arcane or divine, from any list. Requires playing a half-elf and either flaws or the Half-Elf Paragon class to take both Human Heritage and Able Learner at first level. I've got a version of that build in my sig.

[TuggyNE]

Anticipate Teleportation

How would this even work? :smallconfused:

[CyberThread]

It doesn't that is why I did not include it in my own list that I made up

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16013662

[Renegade Paladin]

So spells that are better replicated with other spells. Got it. I guess I missed them because Fimbulwinter has a more impressing effect. So how many of these would make you think "OMG he's two CL behind and breaking the game!"? How many of those are present in the PF spell list? How many of them fit under both categories?
One CL behind, since PF arcane archer advances casting. :smallwink: Spells that have long casting times have them for a reason.

For extra hilarity you could cast greater glyph of warding, select the spell glyph option, and put geas/quest in it. Cut two ten minute castings down to a standard action, and whoever you shoot has to do your bidding. :smalltongue: Or if you just want to kill him, bind harm into the glyph and the arrow takes care of the one hit point it leaves. Since the glyph spells are area effect and can have any other spell of their level or lower tied in, if an arcane archer has access to them it allows for shenanigans galore, ranging from bestow curse to plane shift.

Summon stampede could be amusing, though it's PF-only and a full round casting time. Shoot a dude, and he gets run over by a giant herd of cattle. :smallbiggrin:

[avr]

Note that in PF in a moment without thought, the official line became that spell-likes can qualify you for PrCs requiring casting. Arcane Archer no longer requires you to be an elf or half-elf, either. So no arcane casting dip should be required for a PF arcane archer ...

[Snowbluff]

One CL behind, since PF arcane archer advances casting. :smallwink: Spells that have long casting times have them for a reason.
:smallslapsthatwinkoffyourface: :smalltongue:

I know that. It's just that Arcane Archer takes forever to enter with raw Wizard.



For extra hilarity you could cast greater glyph of warding, select the spell glyph option, and put geas/quest in it. Cut two ten minute castings down to a standard action, and whoever you shoot has to do your bidding. The other two weren't worth mentioning. This is a good idea, however.


Summon stampede could be amusing, though it's PF-only and a full round casting time. Shoot a dude, and he gets run over by a giant herd of cattle. :smallbiggrin: Pfft... HAHAHAHA! :smallbiggrin:

Standard and full round aren't too far off in terms of usability. Spells made standard from minute+ casting times would have more effect.

[Jack_Simth]

How might one "spam" this Imbue Arrow for maximum arrow-ey goodness?
Might a Custom Magic Item be in order?

Scratch that, thought it was a spell.
Though a way to gain additional uses of it would be nice.
...

The 3.5 version has no listed limit, and is thus usable as long as you have spells to power it.

Come to that, I just checked, and the Pathfinder version is the same in that regard.

[TuggyNE]

For extra hilarity you could cast greater glyph of warding, select the spell glyph option, and put geas/quest in it. Cut two ten minute castings down to a standard action, and whoever you shoot has to do your bidding. :smalltongue: Or if you just want to kill him, bind harm into the glyph and the arrow takes care of the one hit point it leaves. Since the glyph spells are area effect and can have any other spell of their level or lower tied in, if an arcane archer has access to them it allows for shenanigans galore, ranging from bestow curse to plane shift.

If you can merge this with (some of) the tricks from The Master of Glyphs (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10643.0), you'd get even more awesomeness.

[nedz]

"My friend is in trouble, I need to get him out of there.
I shoot him with an Imbued Arrow — Phantom Steed"
(Phantom Steed has a very long casting time)

Imbued Arrow — Dimension Door is another amusing get out.

Imbued Arrow — Heal, would also be funny.

For offensive uses

Imbued Arrow — Plane Shift is an amusing attack.

Imbued Arrow — Summon X could also be hilarious.
First they get him by an arrow, then they get full attacked by some (large) critter.

[Chronos]

Remember, it needs to be an area spell.

[jaybird]

Consider if you were leading an army, you could drop a mass cure X wounds spell on any squad that was taking a beating from a distance. Likewise if you were facing an army you could blast them with mass inflict spells (or mass cure spells if they are undead).

There's GOT to be better spells than the Mass Cure/Inflict line for doing damage. In fact, I'm pretty sure they make vanilla Fireball look good.

[Renegade Paladin]

"My friend is in trouble, I need to get him out of there.
I shoot him with an Imbued Arrow — Phantom Steed"
(Phantom Steed has a very long casting time)

Imbued Arrow — Dimension Door is another amusing get out.

Imbued Arrow — Heal, would also be funny.

For offensive uses

Imbued Arrow — Plane Shift is an amusing attack.

Imbued Arrow — Summon X could also be hilarious.
First they get him by an arrow, then they get full attacked by some (large) critter.
It has to be an area spell. That's why I was bringing up the spell glyph version of glyph of warding, since it allows single target spells to be bound into it and it's an area spell that qualifies for Imbue Arrow. And glyph of warding specifies that the spell must be harmful, so no heal or dimension door allowed.

[Snowbluff]

It has to be an area spell. That's why I was bringing up the spell glyph version of glyph of warding, since it allows single target spells to be bound into it and it's an area spell that qualifies for Imbue Arrow. And glyph of warding specifies that the spell must be harmful, so no heal or dimension door allowed.

Excuse me? If you can't figure out how to hurt someone with DDoor, you haven't met gravity. Or water. Or rocks. :smalltongue:

The spell isn't (Harmless), anyway. Too bad about Heal being Harmless while it clearly isn't to zombies.

[Renegade Paladin]

Excuse me? If you can't figure out how to hurt someone with DDoor, you haven't met gravity. Or water. Or rocks. :smalltongue:
Creatures brought with dimension door must be willing. I suppose if your definition of "harmful" means "doesn't have (harmless) in the save entry," you could do it, but it would do nothing.

[Snowbluff]

Creatures brought with dimension door must be willing. I suppose if your definition of "harmful" means "doesn't have (harmless) in the save entry," you could do it, but it would do nothing.

You're right, but here comes the second part.

You've just triggered a magical trap? Teleport Y/N?


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There's GOT to be better spells than the Mass Cure/Inflict line for doing damage. In fact, I'm pretty sure they make vanilla Fireball look good.

Mass Heal/Harm is hilarious.

[jaybird]

Mass Heal/Harm is hilarious.

I suppose it's a better option than Meteor Swarm :smallamused: