Looking for a game system like BESM 3rd edition, but not BESM.

[realbombchu]

Hi everyone, one of my players thinks that Pathfinder is too restrictive for his character concepts. He wants to a more BESM-like game, but I told him I didn't want to use BESM 3rd edition because it's missing some game elements that I enjoy (like a monetary system).

I don't really want to switch, but I also don't want to lose him as a player so I'm trying to find a system that he and I can both enjoy.

I pretty much only like fantasy. He also likes fantasy, but likes space operas even more. I don't care for Star Wars, so please don't recommend anything like that. In terms of mechanics, I like a lot of publisher support, but otherwise I'm pretty forgiving. He's complaining about classes and wants a more point-based game, I think. More details available upon request. Thank you for your help.

[The Rose Dragon]

GURPS has a monetary system, and so does Unisystem. GURPS is a point- and effect-based system, while Unisystem is closer to skill-based. They can both handle fantasy rather easily, though GURPS requires quite a bit more work on the GM's end.

[Beleriphon]

Hi everyone, one of my players thinks that Pathfinder is too restrictive for his character concepts. He wants to a more BESM-like game, but I told him I didn't want to use BESM 3rd edition because it's missing some game elements that I enjoy (like a monetary system).

I don't really want to switch, but I also don't want to lose him as a player so I'm trying to find a system that he and I can both enjoy.

I pretty much only like fantasy. He also likes fantasy, but likes space operas even more. I don't care for Star Wars, so please don't recommend anything like that. In terms of mechanics, I like a lot of publisher support, but otherwise I'm pretty forgiving. He's complaining about classes and wants a more point-based game, I think. More details available upon request. Thank you for your help.


I'll throw out a suggestion for Mutants & Masterminds here as it is completely point based, and a d20 derivative so you should be able to grasp the basic rules structure pretty easily. There is no specific monetary system for equipment, as equipment is purchased with character build points BUT you can add a gold piece economy cribbed from Pathfinder or whatever for mundane equipment and goods pretty easily.

The system does fantasy well enough since most fantasy games and superheroes aren't all that far removed. If you choose to look into I'd suggest M&M 3rd Edition, you check out the core rules here www.d20herosrd.com. For publisher support you can't go wrong with M&M. Green Ronin has dozens of source books, although they've slowed a tad with the release of M&M 3E.

Beyond a monetary system, and fantasy what are you looking for in the game exactly?

[realbombchu]

Beyond a monetary system, and fantasy what are you looking for in the game exactly?

Beyond those two things, and the publisher support that you already talked about, I'm pretty easy to please and don't have a lot of wild expectations. I mean, fun is important of course, but I'm gonna assume the game offers that much. I also enjoy quality storytelling, if the game offers published adventures. My player, on the other hand, is harder to please.

I guess if I had to sum it up, extreme flexibility is the most important thing to him (as in NO parameters on what he is allowed to choose for his characters).

That said, it sounds like M&M or GURPS could both work, and based on what has been so far, I'm leaning a little toward M&M, but only if the monetary system is really that easy to slot in. Thank you for the help so far.

[The Rose Dragon]

I wouldn't say it is easy. In fact, I would say it is impossible, as the way the game handles equipment is completely at odds with what that equiment's monetary value should be (seriously, this is a game where a chainsaw is balanced at the same cost as a limousine). You can still slot one in, but it will completely destroy any expectations the game has regarding equiment accessibility.

[realbombchu]

Okay, I'm torn between Mutants and Masterminds and GURPS now that I've done some reading. I wish Mutants and Masterminds was more multi-genre, I guess. And the lack of official money kind of bothers me more than I thought it would. On the other hand, I haven't played GURPS or even heard much about it from people who have.

Anyone play both with any frequency? I would like some more insight, I guess.

[realbombchu]

I wouldn't say it is easy. In fact, I would say it is impossible, as the way the game handles equipment is completely at odds with what that equiment's monetary value should be (seriously, this is a game where a chainsaw is balanced at the same cost as a limousine). You can still slot one in, but it will completely destroy any expectations the game has regarding equiment accessibility.

This is what I was afraid of, thanks for the heads up. We tried BESM maybe a year ago, and bailed when the lack of money became a game mechanics issue, so I don't want to try something with the same problem.

[The Rose Dragon]

Unless you want a horribly mundane game, Mutants & Masterminds can handle whatever genre you want to do with it. Considering I personally consider its lack of any form of mechanical currency a plus, however, I'm afraid I can't give you any insight besides what I already said.

[Beleriphon]

That said, it sounds like M&M or GURPS could both work, and based on what has been so far, I'm leaning a little toward M&M, but only if the monetary system is really that easy to slot in. Thank you for the help so far.

Money is easy enough to use in M&M. It even has a fantasy supplement (in the vein of Conan comics) named Warriors & Warlocks. Its for the previous edition, but the general advice and most of the rules work perfectly fine as they stand.

Warrior and Warlocks suggests one of two methods of dealing with wealth. The first is to disregard it and just assume as a sword and sorcery game the heroes have as much equipment as needed unless dramatically appropriate. The second is to use a rough and ready system that converts a "wealth score" (a second edition option that easy enough to port to third) and associate a gold piece value to it.

For mundane equipment I wouldn't worry about money vs build points too much. As a fantasy game I'd expect that vast majority of characters to have what they need. For magic equipment I'd still use the rules for powers/effects. The only thing I'd look at is how common an item is supposed to be in the setting and make the purchase of said thing either coin or build points based on commonality.

That and you'll get lots of support at the Atomic Think Tank (http://www.atomicthinktank.com) plus dozens/hundreds/thousands of prebuilt characters in the Role Call section.

[realbombchu]

Unless you want a horribly mundane game, Mutants & Masterminds can handle whatever genre you want to do with it. Considering I personally consider its lack of any form of mechanical currency a plus, however, I'm afraid I can't give you any insight besides what I already said.

Fair enough, thanks for your help. How do you play without money? I haven't played many games, so I'm really curious because I wonder if I'm missing something. I mean, there's the draw of gaining experience and becoming stronger, going on to face greater challenges and so on, but I kind of like a good treasure hoard sometimes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Very easily. Most point-based systems are balanced on what the characters can do, not how they can do it. It doesn't matter if the Steel Dude custom-ordered his power armor for a gajillion dollars, or built it out of tin cans and lemon juice, as long as the power armor functions the same. The treasure hoard, in any case, would be color. Anything the players want to keep, they pay for with their points.

Note that it is possible to run months of M&M without awarding a single power point (where characters essentially remain mechanically static) and still have fun. It is not particularly focused on character advancement as a system.

[Mando Knight]

Your "money" in M&M is not money, per se, but points. You want shiny magic items? Spend points on those. You want cold hard cash? That's an Advantage: Benefit (Wealth).

Many games gloss over the specifics of genre economics simply because they're a lot more trouble than they're worth compared to simply boiling the economy down to the bonuses that you're going to want to use the cash for anyway.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeah, a lot of games don't bother with the whole "You have X gold pieces" bookkeeping and just abstract your funds out to a simple Resources or Wealth score (or even ignore it entirely). GURPS actually gives you the expected income of various Wealth levels along with specific prices for all the equipment in the book, so if it's that important to you, go with GURPS.

If you want a simpler system, then I'm afraid monetary accounting is almost always the first thing to get streamlined. You could houserule in some way to deal with treasure hordes, though (eg "Okay, the dragon horde is worth +1 to your Wealth for the next year, or a single Wealth 6 purchase if you blow it all at once").

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Someday, I'll find a way to make Accountant: the Excelling an appealing game.

Someday. :smallbiggrin:

[Beleriphon]

Note that it is possible to run months of M&M without awarding a single power point (where characters essentially remain mechanically static) and still have fun. It is not particularly focused on character advancement as a system.

On that note for your needs M&M is a good choice since you don't have to get more powerful (I'd suggest PL8 for a typical fantasy game, you'll know that means if you read the rules) by increasing the campaign's Power Level but rather by giving points to let the characters do more and broaden their abilities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The 3e GM's Guide has an optional wealth subsystem. It's a d20 modern style "roll to purchase" type thing.

Also, if you're looking for 3e M&M fantasy, stuff, I did some work in that direction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279503)...

[realbombchu]

Ok, this helps a lot, because I guess after playing Dungeons and Dragons for so long, or Pathfinder, I got a little stuck in my ways. You've given me some stuff to think about.

I'll consider my player's request a little more seriously now that I'm more aware of the options. He seems adamant about it anyway, so I probably shouldn't blow him off.

Thanks, I might come back with some more questions later.

[CIDE]

I'm not exactly sure what you feel is missing in BESM. We've successfully merged BESM with other d20 systems all in the same game so elements such as a monetary system is mostly a moot point. BESM also is basically set up for a "dial-a-yield" method so you can control exactly how powerful he is in comparison to the other players or characters if you were using a Pathfinder based game.

If you do that however I suggest you outright ban the "wealth" attribute. In non-BESM d20 systems that absolutely wrecks the game unless it's high OP.

[Rakaydos]

I'm not exactly sure what you feel is missing in BESM. We've successfully merged BESM with other d20 systems all in the same game so elements such as a monetary system is mostly a moot point. BESM also is basically set up for a "dial-a-yield" method so you can control exactly how powerful he is in comparison to the other players or characters if you were using a Pathfinder based game.

If you do that however I suggest you outright ban the "wealth" attribute. In non-BESM d20 systems that absolutely wrecks the game unless it's high OP.
they're talking BESM Tristat, not BESM D20