Bad DM, Bad Players, or Bad Adventure? Pick one.

[MinMax Hardcore]

A good D&D night combines of a good DM, good players, and
awesome adventure, but tonight one of these turn bad.

Bad DM: It's his way or the highway. Goblin hit you in the head, no spot check, because you wasn't actively looking for enemies. Got a powerful character built? Sorry those feats are not allow in my campaign. Even his monsters play by a different rule. Worse DM you can possibly imagine.

Bad Players: Player killers. No sharing loot, because finder keepers.
No teamwork in battle, even friendly fire is encourage. Working with these guys is more dangerous than the actual monsters in the dungeons. Pretty much every man for himself, so watch yourself.

Bad Adventure: A very poorly written and unbalance adventure.
There nothing to gain from it, but death or permanent damage.
It makes you wish you never done this adventure in the first place
and ask yourself," Why did I took this quest in the first place?".
The story is god awful boring and the reward is not worth the lost.

So which one of these bads you more willing to put up with out of the
3?

[Greenish]

Bad adventure, by leaps and bounds. If you have a good group and a good DM, a bad adventure is fairly simple to fix, or at least you can hang out with your friends and take the whole thing tongue in cheek.

[Crake]

I'd go with bad players, because a good DM and a good adventure with bad players simply means PVP ho!!!!! and I do enjoy me some good pvp. As long as the players are actually friends of mine, and aren't gonna get up and shiv me when I hurt/maim/kill their character, and there isn't gonna be any bad blood from it all. Otherwise... hmm, it'd be a tough decision....

[Skevvix]

I too would go with the bad adventure. My group has 3 people that rotate through as DM, and one of them has made it clear to us that a bad DM can take a great adventure, well balanced team, and good teamwork and make them all mean nothing.

[MinMax Hardcore]

I'll go with Bad Players.

Good DM? Check. Game is gonna run smoothly.
Good Adventure? Check. Balance and rewarding.

Now to deal with the Bad Players. I think the risk of player killing
adds a challenge to this unfortunate game night, which is no bad.
Knowing I got stuck with a bunch of bad apples and have to think of
ways to survive being with this group, these will be my course of action depending on my class.

Rogue: Get some distance and find ways to slow them down. like traps or even befriending the enemies ahead.

Fighter: Stay out of everybody way and try not to get backstab.

Cleric: Try to be helpful with heals and when they really need them. FLAME STRIKE, because they most likely kill you when you run out of heal spells.

Wizard: Prepare some escape spells when things go sour.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, definitely not bad DM. A bad DM just ruins everything.

With a good/fair DM and the right group, even a poorly written adventure can be overcome through proper lateral thinking and subversion. But a good DM is absolutely necessary for it to happen. At the very least you get some silly stories and interesting IC interactions when you have good people at the table.

With a good DM and a good adventure, bad players can be... properly motivated. But it's harder, and I'm not a huge fan of PvP.

So I'll take one bad adventure, please.

[Gemini476]

Probably Bad Adventure, for reasons outlined above.

Although those Bad Players aren't that bad, honestly. The horror stories I've heard...

[Bhaakon]

Although those Bad Players aren't that bad, honestly. The horror stories I've heard...

Agreed. PvP, in-character sniping, and general backstabbery can be fun if all the players buy in. It's only really a problem when someone doesn't realize that's the kind of game it's going to be or makes it personal.

[Mnemnosyne]

Bad players, if I know about it beforehand and can build my character for such an occasion. Bad adventure otherwise.

Reason being if I've built a character intended not to overshadow the party and they turn out to be jerks, I'm not going to have fun being their butt-monkey because I didn't build a character that could fight them.

On the other hand, a bad adventure I can deal with if the DM is good and the party is fine; I'll wind up going off the rails, things will get weird or amusing, and we'll probably have fun.

[Gemini476]

Agreed. PvP, in-character sniping, and general backstabbery can be fun if all the players buy in. It's only really a problem when someone doesn't realize that's the kind of game it's going to be or makes it personal.

Listen, there are bad players and there are bad players. There are the ***** who make you angry, and then there are the creepy ones that make you feel extremely uncomfortable/disgusted. It's a different kind of "bad", but still.

I'd rather play with a party of backstabbing Kender than some of the singular horrible players I've read of. You know how RPGnet recently had to explicitly ban discussion about justifying rape in campaigns? The mods even mentioned that they couldn't believe they even had to make that a rule.

[Yora]

There are no bad adventures if the GM is good. Good enough to ignore some parts that are written and add some others to make the game more fun.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I one i can put up with the most is a Bad Adventure, if it is enjoyable.

the least would be Bad DM, no matter how good the adventure or the players, if the DM can't engage or make it enjoyable, the DM will always turn gold into crap.

[Maginomicon]

Listen, there are bad players and there are bad players. There are the ***** who make you angry, and then there are the creepy ones that make you feel extremely uncomfortable/disgusted. It's a different kind of "bad", but still.I'm reminded of the tale of The Importance of Wearing Pants (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSVjfYaMGk).

[ArcturusV]

Well, bad players would be my vote. The thing is, ****ty players will make a campaign suck. Bad DMs will mean the Campaign never really gets off the ground. And bad adventures just means you won't want to do the campaign. But as long as it's ONLY bad players? The campaign at least moves forward.

... plus there is always a chance to make the sociopath in your group cry like a baby and swear he can no longer be your friend... Because you "pulled a watchmen" on him.

Which is still one of my favorite campaigns in recent memory.

Whereas my least favorite was with the Bad DM who, quite literally, (No, not literally figuratively, literally), raped my vasharan female character 4 times in one session.

... I don't play with him anymore. Ever. I leave if someone even thinks of inviting him.

[Ansem]

You can have the most ****ty adventure that the party can spice up themselves ingame and the good DM being able to keep the game going.
A bad DM will just ruin the fun as much as bad players, as they both make the game become unplayable, unlike a bad adventure which is a setback but not game-breaking for me.

[Maginomicon]

Whereas my least favorite was with the Bad DM who, quite literally, (No, not literally figuratively, literally), raped my vasharan female character 4 times in one session.

... I don't play with him anymore. Ever. I leave if someone even thinks of inviting him.
Not to belittle what you went through, but that's not the first time I've heard of something that despicable (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/12/a-paladins-fall/).

My paladin had taken a vow of celibacy. Not the feat from the “Book of Exalted Deeds,” mind you. It was simply something my character had done in-character, with no mechanical benefit. The villain in this particular campaign was an enchantress. It was a lame self-insert character by our GM, but the group tried to put up with it. In our last session I got separated from the rest of the party while we were hunting the enchantress. She jumped out at me, and cast Dominate Person. Once I failed my saving throw, and was under her power, she tried to seduce me. I told the GM that, since this was against my nature as a celibate man, I ought to get a new saving throw at a +2 bonus to resist. Do you know what she said to me?

“Deep down, all men just want to have sex with women, no matter what they say.”

She denied me the right to a new saving throw, and went on to describe my character and her’s having sex. Once she was done, she said that since I had broken my vow of celibacy, I lost all of my paladin powers.

So how can I get back at her for this?
Great article by-the-way. It partially inspired how I wrote up how to treat paladins in the Real Alignments system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341).

[lytokk]

I think if you know before the game starts, bad players, since you can always come up with a way to combat them. If you don't know before the game starts, I'd say a bad adventure. Truthfully, if you've got a good DM, they can turn any adventure around, and if you've got a good party they can at least make it an enjoyable night.

[Feint's End]

Take the bad adventure. If you have a good DM and goods players you have fun ... that's it. Because they are awesome ppl and you like meeting with them. Every Adventure is just as good as the people playing it.

Some people talked about bad players not being so bad and said why. To those I say ... what you guys mentioned are not bad players. They are just players who enjoy playing pvp and such but that doesn't make them bad players. Now look at really bad players .. players who disrupt the game, who are unpleasant to be around and who do things just because they want to screw with everyone else. Those are bad players (And I bet noone of you would prefer those over a bad adventure).

[atomicwaffle]

Bad adventure. With a good dm and good players, you can have fun doing something that's a college student's interpretation of a final fantasy game. Currently im with a group collecting 8 pieces of a staff to stop a lich from taking over the world (no joke).

One time me and another player broke out singing the theme song to Rescue Rangers.

[Vizzerdrix]

Bad adventure, by leaps and bounds. If you have a good group and a good DM, a bad adventure is fairly simple to fix, or at least you can hang out with your friends and take the whole thing tongue in cheek.

I couldn't agree more.

[Telonius]

There are no bad adventures, only MST3K opportunities.

[Svata]

Bad Adventure, most definitely.

[molten_dragon]

I'd rather have the bad adventure, since that's the easiest to fix. A good DM can probably fix it on the fly, or just make something else up.

A bad DM would be the next best choice, since that's only a problem with one person. You can just tell him "Kevin (all bad DMs are named Kevin), you're being a ****, stop it. if you're going to continue being a ****, we'll get someone else to DM".

A whole group of bad players is definitely the worst.

[Zero grim]

I've had all three but never all at the same time, My worst one was Bad GM and Bad adventure, it was a rail road of us unleashing spirits onto the world that would destroy it and we were kept in line by a catfolk capable os teleportation and true res, we were level 1 and levelled quickly but our power was never even close to any npc with a name.

Having good players are critical, without good players your not going to have fun as a player, saying you'd play with bad players "if they were friends" doesn't make much sense to me since they probably are not bad players if your all friends, PVP doesn't make a group of players bad, having players break out of character half way through role-play to complain about how things are unfair is bad (especially when they refuse to continue until they get their way but refuse any other player similar or even slightly equal treatment).

Id play a bad Adventure with a good DM any day, as a good group will laugh at the adventure and a good DM will rectify anything horrifyingly crazy/brutal

[MinMax Hardcore]

I like how nobody here pick a Bad DM.

We don't mind killing bad players and as long you have a great DM and friends, even a bad adventure can be fun.


Now what would justified playing with a Bad DM with a
good adventure and with your buddies?

[Mnemnosyne]

Well, the thing is, I can imagine playing with bad players and still having fun, as long as the DM isn't catering to their nonsense (hence, good DM). But it's much, much harder to do something with a bad DM, because if he doesn't play along at least a little, the game pretty much grinds to a complete halt.

I mean, I could imagine pulling a Henderson with some bad DM's, but depending on the badness of the DM, that just wouldn't work with some of them. Old Man Henderson's DM felt bound to follow the rules and have the world work in a consistent manner. A DM that flat out cheats and alters the rules anytime the characters are going to succeed at something makes even pulling a Henderson impossible. Chief Circle from another set of threads around here comes to mind.

So, if the DM is sort of bad but still feels bound to follow the rules and have the world work in a logical manner that makes sense, a bad DM can still be fun to play with. But if the DM is bad enough that he has no connection to the rules and doesn't care if he alters reality for the express purpose of preventing the players from doing anything, then there's just no way to have fun with him.

[Tim Proctor]

Is it the equation that 1 DM = 1 Adv = All Players?

I'd think 1 DM = 1 Adv + All Players, probably the reason no one has said DM.

Secondly All Players being bad is worse than an adventure, because if your players and DM are good it doesn't matter what the adventure is.

[nyjastul69]

My pick is a bad adventure. I just got done DMing WLD and we all had fun playing it despite its serious problems. I don't know if I'm a good DM or not, I've never DM'd for me, but I've got great players. I've played in campaigns with all of these options and a bad DM is the most problematic for an enjoyable game.

[OldTrees1]

Good people over good materials.
With a good DM and good players, I would be willing to play with the worst RPG mechanics in the world of the worst adventure (which we would immediately derail).

[MinMax Hardcore]

I think the only way to justified playing with a bad DM is to tell a really good bad DM story.

Also is there any bad DM story threads here?

[ArcturusV]

Think the reason it is that bad DM gets the pick for worst option is...

... what is a bad player going to do? Either try to derail the game by punting random gnome NPCs or something, or worst case try to steal/kill the party off in some fashion. Either way he's more or less limited to IC rules and thus, can be dealt with by those rules. He tries to kill the party? Just stab him in the face until he stops. It's not like he can really DO anything about it.

Bad adventure? Well sometimes it turns into a joke and can be fun. Worst case and it just sucks all around? Have your characters turn around, go back to town, or otherwise "derail" the plot to do something more interesting.

Bad DM? He just handwaves crap. You're instantly teleported against your will, no saving throws, to places he wants. Dice are fudged to always screw you over, you find all your enemies always have enough SR, saving throws, or just flat immunities. You're forced to be spectators to Avatar NPCs to show how awesome he is... and there's nothing you can really do about it, in game. All you can really do is go punch him in the arm for being a ****, and/or walk away from the game.