What the heck are Elder Brains?

[Tvtyrant]

I was rereading Lords of Madness for the 30th time, and I realized I have no clue where Elder Brains come from. They supposedly are not Mindflayers, but there is no explanation of their breeding habits or origins (sacrificing them makes time-portals though.)

None of the Monster Manuals explain where they come from, nor do any splats that I know of. Anyone know where the heck they come from and how they took over the Mindflayers?

If not I am going to rule that they are flayers, they are just born out of Neolithids. All of the little baby flayers come off of them as well, and they use ceremorphosis to prevent being usurped.

[vendur]

Channeling my inner baldurs gate-- i'm pretty sure the "elder brain" is just an evolved -- or devolved, mindflayer/illithid.

[Rubik]

From what I recall, when an illithid in an enclave dies and its brain is left intact, its brain is preserved and added to the elder brain's pool. This is where the elder brains come from -- they're the accumulated minds and souls and gray matter of all the illithids that came before.

[gurgleflep]

Channeling my inner baldurs gate-- i'm pretty sure the "elder brain" is just an evolved -- or devolved, mindflayer/illithid.

For a devolved mind flayer, look for the Yaggol in the Bestiary of Krynn (Revised) :smallsmile: They, as well as the Eberron drow are awesome!


From what I recall, when an illithid in an enclave dies and its brain is left intact, its brain is preserved and added to the elder brain's pool. This is where the elder brains come from -- they're the accumulated minds and souls and gray matter of all the illithids that came before.

That sounds about right. I also believe that it can be the "birthing pool" or however you'd like to call it where the flayers release their spawn (tadpoles). Those lucky enough to not get eaten by the brain get placed into human heads... I may be combining two critters though because that sounds a bit off the wall even to me.

[Sith_Happens]

They're in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Coidzor]

From what I recall it's not known where Elder Brains came from.

Illithids are kind of a mystery as well, because they're from an erased timeline and from far in the future there too. It's sometimes been suggested that humanity somehow became illithids, but I believe that's more fanon creep. IIRC, Illithid appeared out of nowhere and began kicking the crap out of all of the planes and then between everyone pushing back on them and the Gith Rebellion their power was broken and they scattered and went to dark corners of the world/planes to lick their wounds and rebuild their strength. The Elder brains appeared with them, and while they're in a symbiotic relationship with the illithid they're not the illithid themselves, though they find it easier to have the illithid believe that it is so than to just control them otherwise.

Although I believe some explanations for illithids involve the far realm, and those cases actually do have humans becoming illhitid to begin with.


From what I recall, when an illithid in an enclave dies and its brain is left intact, its brain is preserved and added to the elder brain's pool. This is where the elder brains come from -- they're the accumulated minds and souls and gray matter of all the illithids that came before.

That's what the Illithid believe, anyway.

[Skevvix]

According to this (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elder_brain), they are the final stage of mindflayer lifecycles.

[BWR]

From what I recall, when an illithid in an enclave dies and its brain is left intact, its brain is preserved and added to the elder brain's pool. This is where the elder brains come from -- they're the accumulated minds and souls and gray matter of all the illithids that came before.

Correct.

It's all in "The Illithiad". It also introduced the idea that brain pools are little more than a physical anchor for the minds, which spent most of their time, mass and power on the Astral., explaining why an elder brain could continually absorb brains and consume tadpoles, yet never grow larger.

[Erik Vale]

From what I recall, when an illithid in an enclave dies and its brain is left intact, its brain is preserved and added to the elder brain's pool. This is where the elder brains come from -- they're the accumulated minds and souls and gray matter of all the illithids that came before.

This.
Except, less souls and more knowledge and power.

[Yora]

That's what the Illithid believe, anyway.
There is the kind of conspiracy theory, which says that the elder brain just eats those illithid brains the same way illithids eat humanoid brains.
In which case they might not even be the same species at all.

[Just to Browse]

There is the kind of conspiracy theory, which says that the elder brain just eats those illithid brains the same way illithids eat humanoid brains.
In which case they might not even be the same species at all.

That's a fine symbiotic relationship I'd say. The elder brain helps your civilization take over the world, and in return only asks that you subsume your brain when you're going down from old age.

[Kalmageddon]

I think it's quite explicitly stated in Lords of Madness that the Elder Brains are indeed made by Illithid brains, the only "conspirancy" or misconception is that the Illithids believe their conciousness survives and they become part of this powerful and omniscient being, when really their conciousness is destroyed and the brain just adds their psychic powers and knowledges to its own, but it's still a single entity.

The Elder Brain also functions as a nursery for illithid tadpoles, eating the weaker ones and making sure that only the strong and smart are selected for ceremorphosis.

[Mnemnosyne]

Illithids are kind of a mystery as well, because they're from an erased timeline and from far in the future there too. It's sometimes been suggested that humanity somehow became illithids, but I believe that's more fanon creep.
Actually, this idea is from at least as far back as 2nd Edition and appeared in an official product. I don't know if it has origins even further back, but it was part of the Spelljammer campaign accessory/sub-setting/adventure boxed set, The Astromundi Cluster. The Astromundi Cluster is there stated to be an unimaginably old crystal sphere, predating all other known spheres. The history is somewhat long and complex, but the illithids apparently developed out of 'mutant' humans that were shunned and driven literally underground, and they naturally hated their progenitors (and pretty much everyone else) for what had been done to them. This is implied to be the initial source of all Illithids ever.

This source is hinted at in Lords of Madness with the reference to the 'Astromundi Chronicles' in the second paragraph of the 'Whispering Shadow' section, page 70.

Edit: Oh, and to add something to the topic of the original post..

In the 2nd Edition Monstrous Arcana book, the Illithiad (part of a series of at least three books, each devoted to a single race: I know of I, Tyrant (Beholders), the Illithiad (Illithids), and the Sea Devils (Sahuagin)) it is explained that the elder brain is the gestalt consciousness of recently dead mind flayers. It doesn't state how one is initially formed, specifically, but it is unequivocally stated as a conglomerate of illithid minds (whose personality solidifies early on, and despite what most illithids think, their personalities do not endure when they are subsumed into the elder brain). It's not particularly clear how it comes into existence in the first place, however.

[Xuldarinar]

Im left to wonder what sort of templates one could apply to Elder Brains, by RAW at least, and what justification one could make for each..

[Segev]

They can take on, by the RAW, any template a corporeal aberration may have. A lot of the inherited templates make little to no sense, however. "Half-dragon" implies that a dragon mated with its non-dragon parent at some point.

Heck, half-dragon illithids make little sense, unless illithid larvae can be used to quicken dragon eggs...and even then, that should probably be half-dragon larvae. Which I suppose could undergo cerebromorphosis in a humanoid to make a half-dragon illithid...maybe.

Then an Elder Brain taht subsumed enough half-dragon illithid brains might become half-dragon, itself.

[Chronos]

By RAW, dragons can mate with anything. Including things that don't normally mate at all. Yes, including that. And even those things.

[gurgleflep]

They can take on, by the RAW, any template a corporeal aberration may have. A lot of the inherited templates make little to no sense, however. "Half-dragon" implies that a dragon mated with its non-dragon parent at some point.

Heck, half-dragon illithids make little sense, unless illithid larvae can be used to quicken dragon eggs...and even then, that should probably be half-dragon larvae. Which I suppose could undergo cerebromorphosis in a humanoid to make a half-dragon illithid...maybe.

Then an Elder Brain taht subsumed enough half-dragon illithid brains might become half-dragon, itself.

Human. Half-dragon template (black, because it's my favorite). Insert tadpole into ear. Mind flayers can only be made using humans though, so I don't know how this would work - I can see it going either
a.) mind flayer with the half-dragon (black) template or
b.) human half-dragon (black) with the half-illithid template on top of that.


By RAW, dragons can mate with anything. Including things that don't normally mate at all. Yes, including that. And even those things.

Half-dragon (gold) iron golem!
Edit: (they're both metallic, that's the only reason the half-dragon isn't (black))

[Tvtyrant]

By RAW, dragons can mate with anything. Including things that don't normally mate at all. Yes, including that. And even those things.

If you combine that with the dragon training feat in Races of the Dragon you can actually make a pretty awesome economy of half-dragons that use animal training rules. Flying horses, elephants, whales, little fire breathing guard dogs, etc.

[Segev]

Human. Half-dragon template (black, because it's my favorite). Insert tadpole into ear. Mind flayers can only be made using humans though, so I don't know how this would work - I can see it going either
a.) mind flayer with the half-dragon (black) template or
b.) human half-dragon (black) with the half-illithid template on top of that.
Nope. Half-dragons are Dragon-type, as you note, and thus are not valid targets for Cerebromorphosis. This just results in a dead half-dragon whose brain was eaten by a larva.

[gurgleflep]

Nope. Half-dragons are Dragon-type, as you note, and thus are not valid targets for Cerebromorphosis. This just results in a dead half-dragon whose brain was eaten by a larva.

I believe there are two versions of the half-illithid template, one in a Faerun book and the other in... well, I don't remember to be perfectly honest, but one allows for dragons.

[Vortenger]

As said above its all in the Illithiad from 2e, written by Big Bruce Cordell himself. The lore has changed here and there over the years, but Mnemnosyne seems to have the whole of it.

[Rubik]

Psionic illithids (and yes, I realize what I just said) have access to both Astral Seed and Fusion at much later levels, and so they could merge with a dragon or half-dragon creature to basically super-gestalt with it.

[Xuldarinar]

Fiendish Elder Brain: Abyss, Nine Hells, ect.
Half Fiend Elder Brains: ^Maybe? Or maybe a demon had a thing for brains.

Dark/Shadow Elder Brain: Plane of Shadow

Celestial Elder Brain: ...
Half-Celestial Elder Brain: ......

Psudonatural Elder Brain (CA or ELH): More influence from the far realm or a native to the far realm.
Half-Farspawn Elder Brain: who knows really.

Half-Illithid Elder Brain: Use the template used to create mind witnesses. One tadpole was somehow implanted and suceeded?

[JaronK]

My own personal theory is that the cataclysm that the Illithids were trying to escape was in fact an invasion by Elder Brains, who are an entirely different species, but are easily capable of dominating the Illithids at range. The Illithids tried to escape back through time to avoid them, but a brain managed to follow them and took over the survivors.

Now the Illithids themselves are slaves to these creatures, raised as guards and as livestock for the brains and operated much like puppets.

JaronK

[Malimar]

I believe there are two versions of the half-illithid template, one in a Faerun book and the other in... well, I don't remember to be perfectly honest, but one allows for dragons.

The one in Fiend Folio is what you get when you do ceremophosis to (i.e., stick an illithid tadpole in the ear of) a non-human humanoid, and can only be applied to "any humanoid other than a human".

The one in Underdark can be applied to "any corporeal creature that is not a construct" (the sample creature uses a beholder), but it's "the progeny of mind flayers and various other creatures. Most often, such progeny are formed through magical tampering with the reproductive process of the host creature," and has nothing to do with ceremorphosis.

[CIDE]

By RAW, dragons can mate with anything. Including things that don't normally mate at all. Yes, including that. And even those things.

rule 34. It's always about Rule 34.

[gurgleflep]

The one in Fiend Folio is what you get when you do ceremophosis to (i.e., stick an illithid tadpole in the ear of) a non-human humanoid, and can only be applied to "any humanoid other than a human".

The one in Underdark can be applied to "any corporeal creature that is not a construct" (the sample creature uses a beholder), but it's "the progeny of mind flayers and various other creatures. Most often, such progeny are formed through magical tampering with the reproductive process of the host creature," and has nothing to do with ceremorphosis.

Thank you, I couldn't think of the books for the life of me :smallsmile: