Need help proving core mage is better than fighter dnd 3.5

[Bainezn45]

Ok so my dm is convinced classes are well balanced and anytime I try and make a melee class that doesn't suck he bitches that its too over powered so we now have a mage , sorcerer, and a cleric in the party. After arguing I have challenged him to a fight. He is going to make a lvl 20 fight I'm going to make lvl 20 mage a 20 lvl cleric. And a lvl 20 sorcerer and were gonna fight. I need help making these three arcane classes they have to be straight core and need to whip the fighters ass only prob I never p,ay arcane so am lost if you fine people would be so kind as to. Point me to some build tips that would be great. So core only phb dmg that's it. Thanks in advance also if you could include spells to use for both defence an offence I'd like to beat him and possibly toy a little just to prove my point

[Equinox]

Shapechange into something really big, grapple him, and eat him.

[Feilith]

Easy stuff here.
Start the fight with long term buffs up already, mage armor, etc

Fly, then wind wall. He cant touch you at all now unless he can jump 300 ft straight up.

Now you cast Summon Monster 8 to summon whatever suits your fancy, then gate and summon in more stuff.

Now disjunction to break his gear

While he's occupied doing that cast invisibility and firestorm, hope he enjoys 20d6 to the face.

Now spam disintegrate, laugh when he fails his fort save and dies

Edit: I lol'd about the shapechange idea. You could do that to :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Step 1: Fly.
Step 2: Dispel (or disjoin, if you're feeling mean) whatever item he's using to get flight.
Step 3: Win.

Feel free to substitute etherealness for flight. Oh, and in case he insists on starting the fight ludicrously close together so he can charge you, have a Contingency on yourself set to Dimension Door you maximum range straight up if he gets within 20'.

[Talya]

Don't let him assume you don't start the fight prepared. Most people who assume parity then proceed to start in the most favorable possible circumstances for the fighter. Be aware that if you start at close range, with no long term buffs up, a well built fighter has about a 50/50 chance (the initiative roll) to kill a wizard outright in a duel. The point is, no wizard would ever naturally be in that situation. Wizards are all about being prepared.

Also, it depends what level you're playing at. At level 1, i can make a rational argument that they ARE fairly well balanced, although the wizard still has a lot more options. The wizard's power will grow exponentionally at odd levels, while the fighter's will only grow linearly. By level 3, it's no longer balanced. By level 5, it's no longer close. By level 7, the fighter basically is a joke.

[Maginomicon]

Dude... you should see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299060). If possible, get your DM to see it too.

[Tvtyrant]

Contingency: Resilient Sphere on yourself. Now you are immune to anything a mundane does for 20 mins. If you go first use a quickened Cloudkill and then cast Forcecage over him. He is now dead. If he goes first your sphere will keep you completely safe for 20 mins, so you can cast all of those wonderful buffs and then summon a crud-ton of monsters to stand between you.

[HalfQuart]

I'm having a hard time with your use of the term "better"... Not sure if you're familiar with the Tier System (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.msg176407); it is one attempt at defining the power and flexibility of the various classes, assuming the same level of optimization and player skill. It really doesn't attempt to measure what classes are best at a single challenge, especially not a PvP competition -- it is more focused on determining which classes will be best able to "solve an encounter", no matter what that actual encounter happens to be. So you certainly may be able to build a low-tier character that is much better at a particular challenge than a high-tier character... but that's not really the point of D&D.

Also: Player > Build > Tier -- so even if someone on the boards builds you an awesome tier 1 character for your PvP competition, if you play it lousy you certainly may lose. But that doesn't really mean anything about the quality of the classes.

I guess what I'm saying is that the point of D&D isn't PvP, so a particular character winning or losing a PvP doesn't really show much of anything relevant. If you really want to compare the classes, come up with 10 different types of encounters and have each character try to solve it their own way.

[Maginomicon]

Or put it simpler:

Use the Wish spell.

"I wish this guy to be dead."

[Tvtyrant]

Or put it simpler:

Use the Wish spell.

"I wish this guy to be dead."

Eh, too many loopholes. Suddenly Lich is a possible outcome of that wish.

[Maginomicon]

Eh, too many loopholes. Suddenly Lich is a possible outcome of that wish.
Fine.

"I wish this fighter guy here to be erased from existance."

[HalfQuart]

If you go first use a quickened Cloudkill and then cast Forcecage over him. He is now dead.
Cloudkill moves 10'/round, so the cloud should have moved past him after 4 rounds... and a Fighter is likely to survive 4d4 Con damage (save for half). Also dunno if there are any core items for teleportation, but that would get him out of the Forcecage.

[Tvtyrant]

Fine.

"I wish this fighter guy here to be erased from existance."

And suddenly they exist over there. He is playing against his own DM, anything that can be messed up is going to be. That is why I suggest using the most inarguable abilities.


Cloudkill moves 10'/round, so the cloud should have moved past him after 4 rounds... and a Fighter is likely to survive 4d4 Con damage (save for half). Also dunno if there are any core items for teleportation, but that would get him out of the Forcecage.

It can't move out of the cage, because it is trapped in it. Just don't make any openings. Agreed about the teleportation, but you have a lot more slots than he does teleportation items.

[Kawaii Soldier]

What are the rules on starting wealth/equipment?

[vendur]

Why do you need help if you are so sure of your convictions?

[Maginomicon]

And suddenly they exist over there. He is playing against his own DM, anything that can be messed up is going to be. That is why I suggest using the most inarguable abilities.

Get the person's name and race somehow.

"I wish for the closest _race_ to me that's named _name_ to be erased from existance."

This isn't that hard. The part that makes it possible is having Lvl 20. If it were Lvl 15 then maybe there'd be some leeway, but Lvl 20? No chance. Pick basically any Lvl 9 spell, go to town. It doesn't even have to be Wish really.

Doubly so if you're fighting against this guy with both a wizard AND a cleric.

[HalfQuart]

Fine.

"I wish this fighter guy here to be erased from existance."
Using Wish for anything other than one of the listed examples is "dangerous" per the spell description -- which, depending on your DM, usually means "horribly bad for you". And since it requires DM adjudication, isn't particularly optimal for a PvP like this.

[Killer Angel]

"I wish this guy to be dead."

Wish doesn't work this way.
But Mr. wizard got so many options, that you can face 20 times the fighter, and kill him in 20 different ways.

[Chronos]

If you want to use Wish to kill someone, then you just use Wish to emulate Finger of Death, which is well within the safe options of the spell.

It's also burning a 9th-level spell with a steep XP cost to do something you could have just done with a 7th-level spell to begin with, but hey, you have that option.

[ddude987]

both of you make characters, you use force cage... ggwp

[Talya]

Or put it simpler:

Use the Wish spell.

"I wish this guy to be dead."

There are a few provisos, a couple of quid pro quos...

Sorry, couldn't resist. Going to Disney World in a few days...

[Deophaun]

both of you make characters, you use force cage... ggwp
Let's give the opponent a little credit and assume that he will pick up some item to give him teleport. Even a Cape of the Mountebank would help him out (No Anklets of Translocation, though, being core-only). Similar with flight, and he should have a Gem of True Seeing (of course, the Gem is a bit inconvenient to use in the middle of battle)

I'd try to kill him with only low level spells. See if you can do it with summon swarm, for example.

[Karnith]

If you go first use a quickened Cloudkill and then cast Forcecage over him. He is now dead.

Also dunno if there are any core items for teleportation, but that would get him out of the Forcecage.

Let's give the opponent a little credit and assume that he will pick up some item to give him teleport. Even a Cape of the Mountebank would help him out (No Anklets of Translocation, though, being core-only).
Isn't the usual Forcecage death trap routine something along the lines of (Time Stop ->) Dimensional Lock -> Empowered Extended Cloudkill/Acid Fog/what have you -> Forcecage?

It can be countered (e.g. a Rod of Cancellation to get out of the Forcecage, or energy resistance/poison immunity), but he'd basically need to know that it's coming.

[Deophaun]

Isn't the usual Forcecage death trap routine something along the lines of (Time Stop ->) Dimensional Lock -> Empowered Extended Cloudkill/Acid Fog/what have you -> Forcecage?
To me, that doesn't prove the Wizard's superiority so much as his superior nova capabilities. That's a lot of high-level spell slots expended to deal with a single Tier 5 character.

[Karnith]

To me, that doesn't prove the Wizard's superiority so much as his superior nova capabilities. That's a lot of high-level spell slots expended to deal with a single Tier 5 character.
Oh, I'm not saying that it's an efficient use of resources, I'm just saying that it's pretty hard to deal with, especially for enemies without access to spellcasting.

Personally, I'd probably just have my daily casting of Shapechange up and beat him to death.

[Eric Tolle]

Pull a Doctor Doom, and sit back in your private Demiplaneto send gross, while he deals with a couple of simulacrums. Say, for simulacrum, each of whom has Planar Bound four Efrits to get access to a total of twelve Wishes each. Cast Nerveskitter to go first, cast a few defensive spells( don't bother with illusions), spam Plane Shift to send the fighter to the Positive Energy Plane. Watch it all while eating popcorn.

Also, Get a trusted third party to run the fight: otherwise your GM will cheat.

[Eldariel]

Isn't the usual Forcecage death trap routine something along the lines of (Time Stop ->) Dimensional Lock -> Empowered Extended Cloudkill/Acid Fog/what have you -> Forcecage?

It can be countered (e.g. a Rod of Cancellation to get out of the Forcecage), but he'd basically need to know that it's coming.

Yes, however it doesn't work if he's immune to Acid Fog. Also, if I were to use this I'd metamagic the Acid Fog to maximize the resistance it can go through; also, it only lasts for 20+CL Boost rounds and it's reasonably likely he'd have enough HP/healing to survive 40d6 damage (averages only 140 damage while a level 20 warrior can easily have 300+ HP) so that's all the more reason to. Also, after Time Stop it's perfectly possible to ready action "If I get line of effect to X, cast Forcecage on X".

This way, if he somehow slips out or dispels the Cage or whatever, you can cast another one. Forcecages are significantly cheaper than Rods of Cancellation so he'll probably run out before you do.


And yeah, Cloudkill is pretty bad since immunity to poison straightout negates the spell. This means Polymorph-effects among others are going to make him immune so if he has such itemized he can just sit it out. Of course, Acid Fog is basically negated by any Acid Resistance items so meh. Acid Fog does destroy items if not resisted though so it'll remove most kinds of boosts and resistances fairly swiftly. If you know it works or can make enemy vulnerable, Cloudkill is thus superior.


To me, that doesn't prove the Wizard's superiority so much as his superior nova capabilities. That's a lot of high-level spell slots expended to deal with a single Tier 5 character.

Well, if a Wizard can so easily crush a Fighter, it should prove superiority, shouldn't it? After all, Fighter and Wizard are supposedly equal so if Wizard destroys Fighter without Fighter getting an action edgewise, that ought to prove that point. He can do that many times a day anyways.

Honestly though, Shapechange or Gate alone is enough and even Greater Planar Binding or a powerful Simulacrum cast on a day before can give a Fighter a run for his money.

[Deophaun]

Well, if a Wizard can so easily crush a Fighter, it should prove superiority, shouldn't it?
Casting a level 9, level 8, a level 7 with expensive material component, and a metatmagicked-beyond-6th spell doesn't rate as "so easily" in my book.

[Eldariel]

Casting a level 9, level 8, a level 7 with expensive material component, and a metatmagicked-beyond-6th spell doesn't rate as "so easily" in my book.

A level 20 mage has 6-7 of each of those (due to Intelligence and base alone). Using 1/6th or less (Pearls of Power and all that) of your daily resources to defeat an encounter that's supposedly 50/50 fight (a PC-equipped Fighter is CR equivalent to its level, and a solo Wizard is a 50/50 fight vs. a CR equivalent encounter) seems quite easy to me. Yeah, 1500gp sucks but honestly, it's not much in the grand scheme of things when your WBL is 760000gp. Like, it's 0.2% of your total wealth.

If Wizard had to use 6 9th level spells and 6 8th level spells, that wouldn't be easy. He could do that only once a day. 1, though? That's nothing.

[Tvtyrant]

A level 20 mage has 6-7 of each of those (due to Intelligence and base alone). Using 1/6th or less (Pearls of Power and all that) of your daily resources to defeat an encounter that's supposedly 50/50 fight (a PC-equipped Fighter is CR equivalent to its level, and a solo Wizard is a 50/50 fight vs. a CR equivalent encounter) seems quite easy to me. Yeah, 1500gp sucks but honestly, it's not much in the grand scheme of things when your WBL is 760000gp. Like, it's 0.2% of your total wealth.

If Wizard had to use 6 9th level spells and 6 8th level spells, that wouldn't be easy. He could do that only once a day. 1, though? That's nothing.

With a winfall of 760,000 GP as the other character is also a PC. The profit margins are amazing!

There are other ways to kill the opponent of course. Time Stop, rod of maximize, summon summon summon, greater invisibility. Let your mountain of Triceratops just smash the fighter to death. 12 Triceratops should work.

[Deophaun]

A level 20 mage has 6-7 of each of those (due to Intelligence and base alone). Using 1/6th or less (Pearls of Power and all that) of your daily resources to defeat an encounter that's supposedly 50/50 fight (a PC-equipped Fighter is CR equivalent to its level, and a solo Wizard is a 50/50 fight vs. a CR equivalent encounter) seems quite easy to me. Yeah, 1500gp sucks but honestly, it's not much in the grand scheme of things when your WBL is 760000gp. Like, it's 0.2% of your total wealth.

If Wizard had to use 6 9th level spells and 6 8th level spells, that wouldn't be easy. He could do that only once a day. 1, though? That's nothing.
Let me point you to the entry on Level 9 spells in my book:

Spells of the ninth level are reserved for the destruction of continents, total reality failure, and telling the universe to go screw itself. It should not be wasted on people with pointy sticks, unless we're talking several thousand such people. Then, maybe.

[Hammerpriest]

Then you're not really using 9th level spells in the most efficient manner possible. These spells refresh daily, so why not use them every day if possible? So what if it's to crush what pretty much is an ant. If you retreat somewhere safe for a day, you get the resources back. And that's not even counting the cheese to get more money to pay for material components.

[Eldariel]

Let me point you to the entry on Level 9 spells in my book:

What difference does that make? Spell slot is a spell slot and if you can end reality 6 times per day it's kind of an everyday thing for you. If it takes 1/6th of your total ability to kill someone, that's a small investment. Besides, there's no kill like the overkill. It's not efficient but it's still a comparably small investment all things considered.

[Tvtyrant]

Let me point you to the entry on Level 9 spells in my book:

Like this isn't a matter of personal opinion. When I play casters they often waste high level slots just because they can. Meteor Swarm to kill a village of kobolds, polymorphing into a troll to eat a kid who displeases you.

[Equinox]

Let me point you to the entry on Level 9 spells in my book:

This is exactly the kind of thinking that got Thulsa Doom to lose to Conan. Had he only been a bit less frugal with his spell slots ...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a Wizard class isn't superior to a Fighter class. Of course he is. But he won't be able to prove this superiority unless he actually, you know, uses his class features. Like, you know, casts spells.

[Deophaun]

Then you're not really using 9th level spells in the most efficient manner possible. These spells refresh daily, so why not use them every day if possible?
Another passage from My Book

If you're a high-level spellcaster, you didn't get there by not making a lot of powerful, reality-shattering enemies who might come looking for your hide at any moment of any hour of any day. Yes, you might not remember Ichor the Wretched, or realized that it was his essence you condemned to the Weeping Pit when you threw the Thrice-Cursed artifact into the void. But he remembers you. And he, along with several hundred other vengeance-fueled antagonists, have been planning their retribution.

It is for these beings that you must keep as many high-level spell slots as possible ready at all times. For when you are spent, that is when one or more will strike....

So it is for this reason that you must respect your high-level slots, and not waste them on men with pointy-sticks. Remember, Ichor is watching (yes, even with your mindblank), and if he sees how quick you are to resort to your most powerful magicks, he will exhaust you with a small investment of cannon fodder.

[Deophaun]

Like this isn't a matter of personal opinion.
Actually, it is a matter of personal opinion. It was flagged as such from the very beginning. Which is why I find people arguing against a stated personal opinion amusing enough to invent entries from a fictitious My Book. Thank you for playing along.

[Hammerpriest]

You are a twentieth level wizard. The only thing that can hold a candle to you are other twentieth level Tier 1 full casters. It's also important to note that if this wasn't just core, you'd also have 20 contingencies on. This means that you are now functionally immortal. Now, while other casters could be watching you to strike at just the right time, you have contingencies for that. So cast away, you mad wizard!

[Svata]

PAO him into a newt. Have your familiar deliver the spell, of course, while it is PAO'd into something rediculous. Then squish him.

[Deophaun]

You are a twentieth level wizard. The only thing that can hold a candle to you are other twentieth level Tier 1 full casters.
Sigh... you should really read all of My Book. You'll see how nasty Ichor the Wretched really is. And he's not even the worst.

But fortunately, all high-level casters are in the same boat, and it's largely a case of Mutually Assured Disjunction. But if a caster has weakened himself by willy-nilly casting apocalypses from the sky, well, ever seen a wake of vultures with 20 levels of druid each? It's a bit like that.

[Equinox]

PAO him into a newt. Have your familiar deliver the spell, of course, while it is PAO'd into something rediculous. Then squish him.
A 20th level Fighter whose Constitution is equal to your Wizard's Intelligence, and who had the foresight to purchase a +5 Cloak of Resistance (a really basic item by level 20) will only fail a Fortitude save against an 8th level spell on a natural 1. You might want to consider a more reliable strategy.

[Hammerpriest]

It honestly doesn't matter how terrible Ichor the Wretched is. If you have a personal demiplane and fight using simulacrums or Ice Assassins, he and any other caster can "watch" you all day as much as they want. They're just not going to be able to do anything to you. Hell, you could fill your 9th level slots with 1st level spells and just carry around scrolls and you'd still be fine. I'm not seeing concrete RAW examples on how using one of your six 9th level spells invites doom any more than simply existing does. Like wizards always have an out. That is their main class feature.

[Svata]

A 20th level Fighter whose Constitution is equal to your Wizard's Intelligence, and who had the foresight to purchase a +5 Cloak of Resistance (a really basic item by level 20) will only fail a Fortitude save against an 8th level spell on a natural 1. You might want to consider a more reliable strategy.

Fair enough.

[Deophaun]

It honestly doesn't matter how terrible Ichor the Wretched is. If you have a personal demiplane and fight using simulacrums or Ice Assassins he and any other caster can "watch" you all day as much as they want. They're just not going to be able to do anything to you.
Personal demiplanes can be sussed out and breached. Heck, we all know what happened to Yssidor the Yellow when he tried that. I think that was the best chapter in My Book, wouldn't you agree?

And I was unaware Ice Assassins were core. Oh well, learn something new every day.

[Eldariel]

Sigh... you should really read all of My Book. You'll see how nasty Ichor the Wretched really is. And he's not even the worst.

But fortunately, all high-level casters are in the same boat, and it's largely a case of Mutually Assured Disjunction. But if a caster has weakened himself by willy-nilly casting apocalypses from the sky, well, ever seen a wake of vultures with 20 levels of druid each? It's a bit like that.

5 slot caster is still fine and honestly, a caster being very hard to trace between constant Mind Blank, Nondetection, Planar shifting and teleporting abilities and the ability to create private demiplanes, chances are nobody would be able to capitalize either way. It ultimately makes no difference though, far as comparing a caster to a noncaster goes.

Breaching a properly created demiplane isn't happening unless there's a lot of preparation which would in turn broadcast the attempt in advance. Hell, even locating the demiplane with Divination as a suppressed school would be close to impossible, let alone entering it.

[Hammerpriest]

You're right, they're not. But this really isn't a personal opinion matter since this is mostly a way of proving between two players that a core wizard is better than a core fighter by RAW. Even if by some crazy GM fiat, the gods themselves came down to intervene, then it nullifies the whole shebang.

Also, remember you have 6 level nine spells and can cast more from scrolls or other repeating devices. I still fail to see how using just one invites someone's wrath more than not using any at all.

[Bainezn45]

Lol wow. Ok thanks for all the help. As for the the pissing contest goes I like playing melee classes but every time I try adding some variant rules to it he says it will out balance I try to explain that at latter levels I will basically be a pack mule for the wizard if he keeps nerfing me. Thus started the pissing contest is I bitch slap his fighter with any one of those three full caster classes with just core then he will allow me to build as I see fit which is why I have brought it to you guys who clearly know more than I do lol

[Segev]

Honestly? I'd instead play a caster and focus all your magic on making you able to play like the fighter you wanted to play as. It's probably quite doable. Especially with Cleric or Druid.

rather than trying to do a duel with your DM.

[Hammerpriest]

If your GM is cool with it, ask him to allow ToB. It has a lot of really cool tricks for martials in it and helps bridge the gap. Maybe it'll even show him how terrible core martials are in comparison.

[Deophaun]

But this really isn't a personal opinion matter since this is mostly a way of proving between two players that a core wizard is better than a core fighter by RAW. Even if by some crazy GM fiat,
My post was a personal opinion matter: I personally find it more satisfying if you could kill a Level 20 fighter with nothing higher than level 2 spells. I also find that more worthy of a forum thread than a generic "How can a Level 20 Wizard kill a Level 20 Fighter" when there are a bunch of SoDs that do it with no more work than taking an hour to memorize them in the morning.

I flagged it as opinion to try to avoid pointless argumentation. But, this being the Internet, that didn't happen. So I amuse myself in other ways.

[ArcturusV]

Heck, you don't even have to necessarily be all that ultra optimized of a spellslinger to make a fighter's life miserable in a duel. Take say, one of the most "horrible" 9th level spells that people tend to call out. Meteor Swarm.

Be aware that the level 20 Fighter (Particularly if it's "optimized" and thus has probably put it's points somewhere other than Con to maximize damage, or ability to use combat maneuvers, etc), only has an average of maybe 162 or so HP (Presuming an eventual +3 Con due to item boosts, not really able to afford much more since a Fighter is very equipment dependent and needs a wide array of gear, multiple weapon sets, etc, compared to the mage who needs a lot less gear and can afford more stat boosts).

Anyway, 162 HP. Mage hits with meteor swarm, and against Touch AC, he's gonna hit with all 4, pretty much guaranteed. Which turns into an unavoidable, no saving throw 8d6 Bludgeoning, 24d6 Fire damage. For a rough average of 112 HP. A max possible of 192, enough to one shot him cleanly. But even if you only do average, you still have a "Massive Damage Death" saving throw you are causing. Which he almost automatically passes. But still is something he might fail at a 5% shot (And a rule fighters often forget because they think they have a lot of HP and can just take a shot, also one that sometimes gets house ruled away).

But presuming the average. Opening round of the fight you shaved off over 2/3rd of his HP with a "Crappy" low Op blast, and he has roughly 50 HP left. At this point you could follow it up with just moving away to keep range open, and using even another very "low op" spell like a Lightning Bolt, and win. Even if he CAN reach you? Well you have miss chances (What else is your wizard going to spend his money on, not like you need 6 different weapons), AC boosts, etc. As it's core only it's not like he's going to Charge Pounce you and smack you for 500 damage. And presuming you put points into Concentration, even without the Combat Casting feat there is 0% chance of getting AoO'd when you spellcast. Barring REALLY, REALLY crappy dice is the only way you can lose this even with the most "stupid" spell load outs.

[Squirrel_Dude]

PAO him into a newt. Have your familiar deliver the spell, of course, while it is PAO'd into something rediculous. Then squish him.On the topic of PAO, ask your DM if your wizard can come to the fight wielding a table. PAO the table into something of your liking.

[Karnith]

So, a (non-comprehensive) list of some of the offensive spells worth considering for this:
As a fighter, his Reflex and Will saves are unlikely to be very good. Save or Die spells targeting those would probably work well. If you feel like being sporting and don't want to kill him in about a round, here are some other fun options:

Acid Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm)/Magic Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm)/Meteor Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm)/Polar Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polarRay.htm)/Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm) - No-save damage spells. Enhance with metamagic (rods) for greater effect, and beware of energy resistance or immunity, which will considerably weaken their efficacy.
Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm) - Stops your opponent from moving too far (per Solid Fog), stops him from making ranged attacks, and it deals damage, too.
Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) - You'd need to cast it pre-combat, of course, and probably buff up your minions with spells and/or items, but you can get some pretty effective skeleton minions with this spell.
Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) - No-save negative levels. Especially effective when used with metamagic, even in a core-only environment. Follow it up with a Save or Die if you want to have a laugh.
Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) - No save, and your opponent is trapped without teleportation or a Rod of Cancellation (or somesuch). It has an expensive material component, mind.
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) - Take note of the XP cost, but in Core, this can summon a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm), a Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend), a Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), or a Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), any of which are probably single-handedly capable of killing him.
The Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm) spells are weaker and take preparation, but can achieve similar effects.
Grasping Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/graspingHand.htm)/Crushing Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/crushingHand.htm) - These will grapple your opponent at a pretty big bonus (+34 plus your casting stat modifier at CL 20 for Grasping Hand, +36 plus your casting stat modifier for Crushing Hand). Crushing Hand also deals damage. If he has Freedom of Movement (say, from a Ring of Freedom of Movement), he's immune, but otherwise it's probably going to get him.
Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) - Grease makes him make a DC 10 Balance check if he wants to move along the ground. Not too hard (and he can obviate it entirely if he can fly), but if he's not experienced and/or if he hasn't seen Grease before, he's not likely to have put ranks in Balance. Also, if he's playing a heavily-armored fighter, he's probably going to fail the check between his Max Dexterity Bonus and Armor Check Penalty.
Irresistable Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm) - It doesn't offer a save, and it stops your opponent from doing anything at all for a few rounds. It's mind-affecting, but I don't think that there's an easy way for Core-only non-spellcasters to get access to immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) - This will probably take most of his magic items away. At high levels, that's absolutely crippling.
Maze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/maze.htm) - It doesn't offer a save, and gives you time (until your opponent makes a DC 20 Intelligence check, which for a Fighter, will probably be a little while) to set up the battlefield or whatever. Drink martinis while he's gone, for all that it matters.
Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm) - No save under most arena circumstances, and if your opponent can't fly under his own power, he's stuck up in the air until the spell ends. Also he'll probably take falling damage once the spell's over.
Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) - Actions are good. This spell gives you a lot of actions to work with. It's pretty silly. Consider using it with the Forcecage deathtrap mentioned earlier in the thread, or with some Delayed Blast Fireballs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayedBlastFireball.htm).
And some defensive spells:
Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) - If you start the fight Astral Projected from somewhere else, you basically can't be killed. You might not be able to lose, either, depending on the victory conditions.
Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) - Get a defensive spell or a buff up without wasting an action. Pretty self-explanatory.
Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm)/Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) - Your opponent probably won't have any way of following effectively if you decide to teleport somewhere.
Ethereal Jaunt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm) - Unless your opponent has some way to get on to the Ethereal Plane or somehow has access to force effects, he can't touch you for the duration of this spell.
Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) - Get it from the ring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement), it makes you immune to grappling and some other things that probably aren't going to be as relevant.
Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm)/Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) - He can't hit you if he can't see you. Note that it is trumped by a See Invisibility or a True Seeing effect.
Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) - If, for some reason, you get tired of the fight, you can cast this and rest up for a while. Good for being annoying, if nothing else. Depending on the victory conditions for the fight, using this could count as a loss for you.
Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) - One of the best defensive spells in the game (even outside of core), this makes it very, very hard for you to be hit.
Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) - Getting a +20 bonus to something is pretty good.
Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm) - Now he needs a flight source of his own to even touch you in melee. It last all day, so you won't even need combat actions to use it.
Prismatic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm) - Anything that can't cast spells basically can't get through one of these. It also stops things going out, though.
Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)/Telekinetic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekineticSphere.htm) - You're pretty much untouchable through normal means while you're in one of these. You could also trap him inside one, if you cared to. It's vulnerable to a few effects, but he'd basically need to know it's coming to do anything about it.
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) - There are a lot of good forms, even in core, that can give you great defenses or abilities. Two of my favorite are turning into a Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), and then using its Change Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) ability to turn back into your normal form for some good stats and abilities while still getting to use all of your items, and turning into a Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) for extra actions. Use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend) to make it last basically all day, so you don't need to cast it during the fight.
True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) - Just in case he tries to pull something with his items.
Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) - If he uses archery or normal projectiles, this is probably going to stop him cold in his tracks.

[Melcar]

Eh, too many loopholes. Suddenly Lich is a possible outcome of that wish.

Im pretty sure, that Wish works as you want it when YOU cast it. Did it come from a genie or gjin, you would have to formulate a perfect wish. But not when you yourself have cast it. You controle the energies and so forth, so a wish cast yourself works perfectly! (allmost)

[Harrow]

Ok, disclaimer, PVP does a poor job of showing how good classes are in a campaign. Chargers, trippers, and archers are all much better at PVP than they are standard adventuring.

No, full casters aren't useful because anyone with access to 3rd level spells can completely shut down mundane characters (although they can). Full casters are useful because they can shut down just about everything except other full casters, usually with a single spell.

Generally, when I see a DM that decides mundane characters shouldn't have nice things, I suggest playing a druid. A well made druid doesn't just destroy mundanes, it can't stop from destroying mundanes. With a MM wild shape form, animal companion, and spontaneous SNA, druids can just beat up anything that disagrees with them. Casting other spells is fun, but not necessary unless you are fighting a caster.

Now, as far as your fight goes, it can be used to prove a point. I suggest something to get out of trouble. There are many things that do this effectively. Invisibility and flight both work pretty well, but teleportation is probably the best. Magnificent mansion, plane shift, rope trick, whatever. Now is the fun part. Cast any buffs you think you need (the aforementioned flight and greater invisibility should suffice) then Astral Projection. Then, once again, go wild. Bonus points for creativity and cherry-tapping.

Magic missile is a fun one. Enervation a few times, then, when he's 4 or fewer negative levels away from instant death, drown him in a sea of summoned badgers.

As a 20th level full caster, you can become untouchable with 1 standard action. As long as you make it that far, you cannot be stopped.

Anyone know any initiative optimization for core-only? because that's really all you need. Dex will honestly be more important to you than a casting stat.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Ok so my dm is convinced classes are well balanced and anytime I try and make a melee class that doesn't suck he bitches that its too over powered so we now have a mage , sorcerer, and a cleric in the party. After arguing I have challenged him to a fight. He is going to make a lvl 20 fight I'm going to make lvl 20 mage a 20 lvl cleric. And a lvl 20 sorcerer and were gonna fight. I need help making these three arcane classes they have to be straight core and need to whip the fighters ass only prob I never p,ay arcane so am lost if you fine people would be so kind as to. Point me to some build tips that would be great. So core only phb dmg that's it. Thanks in advance also if you could include spells to use for both defence an offence I'd like to beat him and possibly toy a little just to prove my point


Win initiative + Gate + Monster Manual.

Try to think of ways to defeat him that don't involve standing in attack range. Think of ways to not be attacked at all. Think of ways to use defensive spells. Think of ways to kill him without allowing saves. Look at the list of spells you have and figure out which ones are going to be the most useful in the highest variety of situations, and what his possible counters to them are.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Like I said in the other duel thread, you already have the advantage. You're a prepared level 20 wizard (or cleric or sorcerer) taking on a "prepared" level 20 fighter. Your only weakness is if you two disagree on something, or he thinks you only "won" because of some interpretation or shenanigans.

So the most important part, more important than any tactic, is to get a neutral party to referee the duel for you. Otherwise he'll show up with a bunch of custom magic items and cry foul if you use but a paltry amount of your vast resources towards things like semi-permanent allies.

[Twilightwyrm]

Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) - If you start the fight Astral Projected from somewhere else, you basically can't be killed. You might not be able to lose, either, depending on the victory conditions.


Be careful with this. Were I this Fighter, I would have the presence of mind to bring along a Githyanki Silver Sword, making Astral Projection a somewhat dangerous tactic.

[Karnith]

Anyone know any initiative optimization for core-only? because that's really all you need. Dex will honestly be more important to you than a casting stat.
Take Improved Initiative, and Shapechange into a Huge (Dex 29) or Greater (Dex 31, but requires CL 21) Air Elemental?

Depending on the DM's interpretation of Moment of Prescience, that might work, too.

Be careful with this. Were I this Fighter, I would have the presence of mind to bring along a Githyanki Silver Sword, making Astral Projection a somewhat dangerous tactic.
Given that there is no actual way to acquire one in Core other than "Believe me, I totally found and killed some githyanki dude this one time and got away with it," I wouldn't be seriously worried about it.

[ArcturusV]

Long as you're thinking about Initiative? Don't forget that your Familiar does give you another +2 with the free Alertness feat. Also consider that someone who is a Fighter 20 probably has a low dex bonus cap from his armor (Least in Core).

Add on a spell like Foresight, and the fact that you can afford to (And have no reason not to) jack up your Dex it should give you a better than not chance of going first.

[Karnith]

Long as you're thinking about Initiative? Don't forget that your Familiar does give you another +2 with the free Alertness feat.
I think that you may be misremembering what Alertness does. Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#alertness)

Benefit
You get a +2 bonus on all Listen checks and Spot checks.
Special
The master of a familiar gains the benefit of the Alertness feat whenever the familiar is within arm’s reach.

[Flickerdart]

Im pretty sure, that Wish works as you want it when YOU cast it. Did it come from a genie or gjin, you would have to formulate a perfect wish. But not when you yourself have cast it. You controle the energies and so forth, so a wish cast yourself works perfectly! (allmost)
No.

The spell text makes it perfectly clear that the outcome of the Wish is not merely dependent on what you want. If you try to do something that's not on the safe list, the spell can screw you over - "The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment."

[Equinox]

Intiative? Moment of Prescience. +20 on a single opposed ability check. And as luck would have, Initiative is a dexterity check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm).

Also, don't necessarily shy of spells that cost XP. Remember, you get 6,000 XP for defeating a CR 20 opponent, so your net return is likely to be positive.

[ArcturusV]

Fair enough, I was thinking of something else, clearly. Ah well. That's what I get for not looking. Maybe I was mixing it up with the 4th edition feat or something? Hmm.

Still, general point stands I think. Initiative wil come down to who has the better roll. You can't really expect to Auto-Win it without some shenanigans that say your Wizard was built specifically for this duel and no other reason. But a general Wizard build that you might adventure with (Which is what I've been presuming), has a better chance of winning it than a Fighter with a low dex.

[Karnith]

Intiative? Moment of Prescience. +20 on a single opposed ability check. And as luck would have, Initiative is a dexterity check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm).
This is not actually so cut-and-dry, since an initiative check is not an opposed check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks) in the RAW sense, there not being a success or failure involved (since it determines initiative order).

I have certainly seen MoP ruled to work on initiative checks, but by RAW it probably doesn't.

EDIT: Also, a Pale Green Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) gives a +1 bonus on initiative checks, among other things.

[Legato Endless]

Ok, disclaimer, PVP does a poor job of showing how good classes are in a campaign. Chargers, trippers, and archers are all much better at PVP than they are standard adventuring.

No, full casters aren't useful because anyone with access to 3rd level spells can completely shut down mundane characters (although they can). Full casters are useful because they can shut down just about everything except other full casters, usually with a single spell.

Precisely. The problem with this contest is it only measures combat prowess against a specific type of enemy. Full casters don't overshadow the martial classes simply because they're better in combat, but because they can solve the quest line. A better test of abilities would be a neutral party creating several different situations and seeing who can solve them. A prepared caster will have little difficulty. A fighter won't usually be able to contribute at all.

It's why the classic treatise on tiers examines slaying a dragon in a cave, prepping a town for invasion, and so on. However, given the little context shared from OP, I'm betting the DM fumed after something damage related OP did in battle, which would explain coming to this solution to their debate.

Best of Luck OP.