Supernatural Transformation: At-Will Innate Spell Like Abilities.

[Snowbluff]

Where do I get them?

[Rubik]

Where do I get them?Supernatural Transformation is a feat in Savage Species. If you have the Magic Mantle, psionics counts as a spell-like ability (since it's explicitly a psi-like ability), and with pp regen tactics, your powers become (provisionally) at-will supernatural abilities.

[Snowbluff]

Supernatural Transformation is a feat in Savage Species. If you have the Magic Mantle, psionics counts as a spell-like ability (since it's explicitly a psi-like ability), and with pp regen tactics, your powers become (provisionally) at-will supernatural abilities.
Psionics are not psionics, but are PLA. PLA meaning an ability replicating Psionics. Could you break this down?

[Rubik]

Psionics are not psionics, but are PLA. PLA meaning an ability replicating Psionics. Could you break this down?Okay. According to the XPH (and SRD), psionics are explicitly psi-like abilities.


Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.And according to Complete Psionic, the magic mantle grants you the following ability:


Granted Ability:[snip]...you always treat magic and psionics as identical.That means that psi-like abilities are also spell-like abilities, since they're equivalent.

In addition, all creatures with manifesting class levels have their Psionics ability listed under Special Attacks in their stat-blocks. Thus, it's a single ability (and a psi-like/spell-like ability). Thus, it qualifies for Supernatural Tranformation.

Taking Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) means that manifesting ignores spell/power resistance, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, does not fizzle under any circumstances, cannot be dispelled, and cannot be counterspelled (not that it could before, but...).

Now, just find a way to get infinite power points, whether through the metamind's font of power capstone or through pp regeneration, and you've got at-will supernatural psionic manifesting.

[edit] Oh, and Supernatural Transformation automatically scales your manifester level up to your HD, so it's considerably better than Practiced Manifester, and you don't have to worry about ever taking more manifesting class levels post-epic. Feel free to start grabbing levels from other manifesting classes, or whatever else you want.

[Snowbluff]

Okay. According to the XPH (and SRD), psionics are explicitly psi-like abilities.

And according to Complete Psionic, the magic mantle grants you the following ability: So psionics never provoke an attack of opportunity and are always full augmented without the addition of PP?

Psionics: ban hammer. I am sick of these crappy rules. Someone should make an argument against psionic powers replicating themselves into a tautological nightmare.

Do you have an At-Will spell like that will not make me burn my XPH?

EDIT: Nah, that's just wrong. The ability to manifest is a PLA, the powers are not. If the ability to make Manifestation a Supernatural ability does what you think it does, the behavior of powers is fundamentally different that what it actually is.

[Rubik]

So psionics never provoke an attack of opportunity and are always full augmented without the addition of PP?

Psionics: ban hammer. I am sick of these crappy rules. Someone should make an argument against psionic powers replicating themselves into a tautological nightmare.

EDIT: Nah, that's just wrong. The ability to manifest is a PLA, the powers are not. If the ability to make Manifestation a Supernatural ability does what you think it does, the behavior of powers is fundamentally different that what it actually is.General vs specific. In general psi-like abilities do not require power points and are augmented to full. In specific powers gained through class levels (or Hidden Talent) must be augmented through power points. Either way, psionic powers are explicitly psi-like, always, unless something changes that (such as Supernatural Transformation).

Adding Supernatural Transformation only changes what supernatural abilities normally change -- which is exactly what I listed above. You still have to augment, though having infinite power points makes that a moot point.


Do you have an At-Will spell like that will not make me burn my XPH?Go look at monster entries.

[Snowbluff]

General vs specific. In general psi-like abilities do not require power points and are augmented to full. In specific powers gained through class levels (or Hidden Talent) must be augmented through power points. Either way, psionic powers are explicitly psi-like, always, unless something changes that (such as Supernatural Transformation).
Specificity case:
Powers
Powers that have PP cost.
PLA are an exception. Otherwise if you have PLAs that replicate Power (Like Abilitie)s, you would have to pay the costs to use PLAs.

But all of the powers are PLAs.



Go look at monster entries.

This kind of defeats the purpose of asking for help.

[Rubik]

Specificity case:
Powers
Powers that have PP cost.
PLA are an exception. Otherwise if you have PLAs that replicate Power (Like Abilitie)s, you would have to pay the costs to use PLAs.

But all of the powers are PLAs.And PLAs that come from manifesting classes cost power points. Deal with it.


This kind of defeats the purpose of asking for help.You'll mostly find at-will spell-like abilities from outsiders, especially celestials and fiends.

[Snowbluff]

And PLAs that come from manifesting classes cost power points. Deal with it. I'll have to make a ruling similar to how spells work. Spells are their own action type, while the ability to cast spells is not a typed ability, and its type is irrelevant to the spell. SLAs are just separate.

The good news is there is only one other guy in my group who would try and be so pedantic.


You'll mostly find at-will spell-like abilities from outsiders, especially celestials and fiends. :smallredface:

Right. Quite a few of those are playable.

I'll have to do some digging. In the mean time, how about some playable/lower LA things?

[Rubik]

I'll have to make a ruling similar to how spells work. Spells are their own action type, while the ability to cast spells is not a typed ability, and its type is irrelevant to the spell. SLAs are just separate. If they're not spell-like, psi-like, or supernatural, they're extraordinary or natural, both of which Metamorphosis and Polymorph give you. Do you really want that? Really?


The good news is there is only one other guy in my group who would try and be so pedantic.
:smallredface:What's "pedantic" about quoting the rules as they're written? It literally says, "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability." That word does not mean what you think it means.

[Snowbluff]

If they're not spell-like, psi-like, or supernatural, they're extraordinary or natural, both of which Metamorphosis and Polymorph give you. Do you really want that? Really? Since spells are their own ability type (called 'Spells'), you don't get them from polymorph. Spellcasting is a natural ability that is irrelevant to the spells you have and can cast.

The same would be true for psionics. The ability to manifest is a PLA (like how regeneration can be Ex), but the powers themselves are distinct from this.


What's "pedantic" about quoting the rules as they're written? It literally says, "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability." That word does not mean what you think it means.
By pedantic I mean "Powers are PLAs and therefore have no cost."

[Rubik]

Since spells are their own ability type (called 'Spells'), you don't get them from polymorph. Spellcasting is a natural ability that is irrelevant to the spells you have and can cast.Spells aren't an ability at all. They're like items, in a way. Using them would be an extraordinary ability (since casting is not based on one's anatomy but rather on training), but the spells themselves are more like ammo, whereas casting is like the act of firing them.


The same would be true for psionics. The ability to manifest is a PLA (like how regeneration can be Ex), but the powers themselves are distinct from this.Aaaand...I don't see your point.


By pedantic I mean "Powers are PLAs and therefore have no cost."No. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, and it retains its cost because the rules on class-based manifesting override the basic rules for psi-likes. Specific overrides general. The rules work the way they say they work. Houserule it all you want; it's still not RAW.

[Snowbluff]

Spells aren't an ability at all. They're like items, in a way. Using them would be an extraordinary ability (since casting is not based on one's anatomy but rather on training), but the spells themselves are more like ammo, whereas casting is like the act of firing them. This is the ruling so that AMF actually stops casting, and you can't count casting as an ability for polymorph.

Normally spell is only the effect.



Aaaand...I don't see your point.

No. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, and it retains its cost because the rules on class-based manifesting override the basic rules for psi-likes. Specific overrides general. The rules work the way they say they work. Houserule it all you want; it's still not RAW. It states clear as day that they don't cost power points. The PLA rules could be considered more specific than the class rules, which is why this needs to be rewritten for clarity or given a ruling.

I am not even sure why manifestation of a power is supposed to be a PLA. It's beyond nonsensical.

[Rubik]

It states clear as day that they don't cost power points.

The PLA rules could be considered more specific than the class rules, which is why this needs to be rewritten for clarity or given a ruling.Please stop intentionally being dense. General vs specific, as I've mentioned multiple times already. Generally, psi-likes don't cost power points. Specifically, the rules for manifesting classes override that rule on psi-like abilities.

Saying that manifesting class-based powers isn't a psi-like ability or that doing so doesn't cost power points is in clear violation of what the rules specifically state, and is thus a houserule.


I am not even sure why manifestation of a power is supposed to be a PLA. It's beyond nonsensical.Because otherwise Polymorph and Metamorphosis and Shapechange and all those other spells and powers based on them could grant you manifesting. It makes sense that in the specific case of class-based manifesting, manifesting powers is a psi-like ability that has special rules attached. If you want something similar, look at the rules for unarmed strikes. Now look at the rules for a monk's unarmed strikes. Do monks' unarmed strikes deal 1d3 nonlethal damage and provoke attacks of opportunity for striking unarmed? No? Same deal here.

[Gemini476]

It states clear as day that they don't cost power points. The PLA rules could be considered more specific than the class rules, which is why this needs to be rewritten for clarity or given a ruling.

I am not even sure why manifestation of a power is supposed to be a PLA. It's beyond nonsensical.

If an Archmage decides to make Wish an SLA, he must still pay the XP and gp cost for casting the spell, despite Spell-Like Abilities normally not requiring any components whatsoever.

The specific PLA that the psionic classes have requires the use of Power Points, but the general rule for PLAs are that they do not do so.


Oh, and the options for psionics would be Na, Ex, Su, Sp and Pl. It is clearly not Natural, since it is not part of the physical makeup of the creature. That leaves Extraordinary, Supernatural Spell-like and Psi-like, but it's clearly not Sp. Supernatural Psionics would be a terrible idea for various reasons, so Psionics would be either Extraordinary or Psi-like. The devs chose Psi-like.

Oh, and there are ~implications~ in the rules that the ability to cast spells is Extraordinary, since it isn't turned off in an Anti Magic Field and isn't Na. So yeah.

[Snowbluff]

Please stop intentionally being dense. General vs specific, as I've mentioned multiple times already. Generally, psi-likes don't cost power points. Specifically, the rules for manifesting classes override that rule on psi-like abilities.

Saying that manifesting class-based powers isn't a psi-like ability or that doing so doesn't cost power points is in clear violation of what the rules specifically state, and is thus a houserule. The powers having costs is the general case.

A power is manifested when a psionic character pays its power point cost. Some psionic creatures automatically manifest powers, called psi-like abilities, without paying a power point cost. Other creatures pay power points to manifest their powers, just as characters do.

Psionic characters spent power points, which is the general case. It then goes on to say that PLAs strictly cost no power point in the clause that states they should. This would not be a problem if they did not include the clause that specifically states that is is always a PLA.

If it costs points, it is not a PLA. Which is, in fact, a houserule, and a damned good one.


Because otherwise Polymorph and Metamorphosis and Shapechange and all those other spells and powers based on them could grant you manifesting. It makes sense that in the specific case of class-based manifesting, manifesting powers is a psi-like ability that has special rules attached. If you want something similar, look at the rules for unarmed strikes. Now look at the rules for a monk's unarmed strikes. Do monks' unarmed strikes deal 1d3 nonlethal damage and provoke attacks of opportunity for striking unarmed? No? Same deal here.
Monks don't have proficiency with unarmed strikes, despite having an actual specific case for damage.

Could you explain to me why powers are PLAs?

[Rubik]

The powers having costs is the general case.

Psionic characters spent power points, which is the general case. It then goes on to say that PLAs strictly cost no power point in the clause that states they should. This would not be a problem if they did not include the clause that specifically states that is is always a PLA.What? No. You have that exactly backwards. Class-based manifesting is a subset of psi-likes, meaning the overarching rules are for regular psi-likes, and class-based manifesting is a more specific case. It's like saying that "weather" is a subset of "snow," when snow is a type of weather.


If it costs points, it is not a PLA. Which is, in fact, a houserule, and a damned good one.Just like a monk's unarmed strike isn't a type of unarmed strike because a medium monk doesn't deal 1d3 damage, even though the rules specifically say that it IS an unarmed strike?

I've quoted the place where it says, flat-out, that manifesting is a psi-like. How much clearer can you get?


Monks don't have proficiency with unarmed strikes, despite having an actual specific case for damage.And that merely applies a -4 penalty to attack, but that doesn't mean it's not still an unarmed strike.


Could you explain to me why powers are PLAs?Powers are not. Manifesting powers is. So no, I'm not going to. I am, however, going to say, one more time, that the rules explicitly state that manifesting is a psi-like ability. Are you calling me a liar, then, when I quote the rules from the rulebooks themselves? Because it's right there. Feel free to look up my quote in the SRD.

[Snowbluff]

What? No. You have that exactly backwards. Class-based manifesting is a subset of psi-likes, meaning the overarching rules are for regular psi-likes, and class-based manifesting is a more specific case. It's like saying that "weather" is a subset of "snow," when snow is a type of weather. Hey, I was just quoting the rules. See the complaint that you penned at the bottom of your post.

Additionally, the term psi-like implies the ability is like something that is psionics. Such a distinction is pointless because psionics don't exist in the game, only abilities that are replicating them.

It would be like saying all spells are actually not spells but spell like abilities. NO one actually has spells, just things that behave exactly like them.


And that merely applies a -4 penalty to attack, but that doesn't mean it's not still an unarmed strike. Yeah, monks suck. :smalltongue:


Powers are not. Manifesting powers is. That's what I said! If the powers themselves are not PLAs, then they do not qualify for Supernatural Transformation. If manifesting is a PLA, then the Powers cost nothing unless that fact is irrelevant to the behavior of the powers, which would mean they are not affected by Supernatural Transformation.


So no, I'm not going to. I am, however, going to say, one more time, that the rules explicitly state that manifesting is a psi-like ability. Are you calling me a liar, then, when I quote the rules from the rulebooks themselves? Because it's right there. Feel free to look up my quote in the SRD.
No, I mean what would possess them to write that into the rules? It's confounding and intriguing. I would appreciate your insight. With an SLA, you have something that "like the spell, but..." A PLA is "like the (something that is not a thing), but..."