Poor, poor Elan

[Felyndaer]

I had a hard time reading through all of the latest strip, I mean it began rather funny, continued with dishing Nale some well-deserved punishment, but then it just got so... sad.
I mean, Elan's such a sweet and innocent guy, and he's being turned on his loved one like that... It just brings tears to my eyes.
If those last two panels had been omitted, I feel as though I just about would've died.

Ha, well, just had to get that out. Seriously though, did it have that effect on anybody else?

[Amon Star]

I agree it was very moving and dramatic. But I had faith it would turn out alright in the end. Remember, :elan: will have a happy ending. And him stabbing :haley: due to the manipulation of :nale: would slightly preclude that. Also, it's likely that Haley would get her speach back at some point before she dies, so that was another thing in there favour.

[Orkimedes]

Actualy (and I may be an a** for saying this) but I really loved how :nale: turned that situation around on Elan. It put me firmly in the :nale: fanclub.

[danielf]

Nale makes a nice bluff.

[Tiako]

I do have the odd trait that the longer a comic is, the more likely I am to skip ahead to the end. Also, towards the end it got a bit too chaotic to read, really.

[Begle1]

I do have the odd trait that the longer a comic is, the more likely I am to skip ahead to the end. Also, towards the end it got a bit too chaotic to read, really.

It was supposed to be chaotic; I thought all the fractured dialog in the last few panels did wonders to heighten the tension and drama of the situation.

I think the entire thing was exceedingly well done. :D

[Ellear Ias]

I absolutely loved Nale's skills in that situation. Worthy of a 5/5 review. Too bad it blew up in his face, though.
Oh well. At least Haley's “Speak Language” checks aren't taking a -50 anymore.... And Elan knows the truth. That's good.

:smallsmile:

[Setra]

I absolutely loved Nale's skills in that situation. Worthy of a 5/5 review. Too bad it blew up in his face, though.
Oh well. At least Haley's “Speak Language” checks aren't taking a -50 anymore.... And Elan knows the truth. That's good.

:smallsmile:

I agree, now it makes me curious as to what will happen with them next.

[Draigo]

heh, i did twitch a little

[fire_hawk]

Or rather, poor poor Nale... He's kinda screwed now.

[D'Artagnan]

I think he probably escapes while Elan and Haley are just standing there. Or stabs Elan in the back.

[Holy_Knight]

I had a hard time reading through all of the latest strip, I mean it began rather funny, continued with dishing Nale some well-deserved punishment, but then it just got so... sad.
I mean, Elan's such a sweet and innocent guy, and he's being turned on his loved one like that... It just brings tears to my eyes.
If those last two panels had been omitted, I feel as though I just about would've died.

Ha, well, just had to get that out. Seriously though, did it have that effect on anybody else?
Yes, I agree completely. Nale also kind of lucked out in the fact that Elan has always been insecure about himself, especially as regards other people truly liking him and not wanting to abandon him because he annoys them. He basically hit him with Elan-kryptonite.

Oh, and those of you cheering for Nale are monsters. I hope he dies. (Okay, he's a fun character, but seriously, he deserves an excruciating death now even more than he did before.)

[Setra]

I had a hard time reading through all of the latest strip, I mean it began rather funny, continued with dishing Nale some well-deserved punishment, but then it just got so... sad.
I mean, Elan's such a sweet and innocent guy, and he's being turned on his loved one like that... It just brings tears to my eyes.
If those last two panels had been omitted, I feel as though I just about would've died.

Ha, well, just had to get that out. Seriously though, did it have that effect on anybody else?

Just a thought, but... shouldn't it really be 'Poor Haley'?

[krossbow]

Oh, and those of you cheering for Nale are monsters. I hope he dies. (Okay, he's a fun character, but seriously, he deserves an excruciating death now even more than he did before.)


Heh, its not that bad. He's doing what he can with what he has. Nale really HAS no other options; evil deception is the only way he can ever win with his horrible class skills. He can't just blow them away like Xycon can, he has to be scummy about it.


Though if anyone ever wants to know how to play an evil bard, just look at Nale. He doesn't have music, but everything else he's been doing has been how an evil bard works.

[mockingbyrd7]

It was supposed to be chaotic; I thought all the fractured dialog in the last few panels did wonders to heighten the tension and drama of the situation.

I think the entire thing was exceedingly well done. :D

Totally agree. While Nale is deceptive, I couldn't believe Elan fell for his bluff. (Then again, his wisdom is so low he probably has -6 on Sense Motive :smalltongue:)

[Ampersand]

Oh, and those of you cheering for Nale are monsters. I hope he dies. (Okay, he's a fun character, but seriously, he deserves an excruciating death now even more than he did before.)

Yay, I'm a monster! :smallsmile:

Seriously, watching Nale verbally work over Elan was the most enjoyable part of 393 for me. That's a fine piece of unplanned villanry there, and a lot more interesting than anything Elan or Haley did.

[Felyndaer]

It is definately true that Nale is a skillful villain, and quite important and all that.
What with the coming up with that idea on the spot, and all.
But still, I don't see how it is all that enjoyable to see Elan abused in such a way.
I understand that Haley was abused much more, but I have favored Elan since comic one, and that disappointed look on his face 10 panels down really gets to me.
I mean look at him, how can that not pull at something in you?

[Wolfie_1066]

Nale has high bluff and combined with the rights spell can make someone turn on a loved one...thats pretty much the essence of evil and i admit i was scared too for the last few panels

[fire_hawk]

It is definately true that Nale is a skillful villain, and quite important and all that.
What with the coming up with that idea on the spot, and all.
But still, I don't see how it is all that enjoyable to see Elan abused in such a way.
I understand that Haley was abused much more, but I have favored Elan since comic one, and that disappointed look on his face 10 panels down really gets to me.
I mean look at him, how can that not pull at something in you?

Easy, it's a stick figure comic.

I'm only cheering his bluff on the spot. While it was cruel, you've got to admit, it was quick thinking. I'm not applauding his ethics or his motives - just the way in which he went about achieving them.

[Setra]

I'm still of the opinion it was worse for Haley... though it's opinionated.

Being led to believe a 'close friend' is actually evil, and 'cheating'(?) on you with your brother.

Or

Watching as the one person you love is being tricked into disliking you, even to the point of raising a sword at you(?), while you desperately try to convince him but cannot speak the words.

[Ampersand]

But still, I don't see how it is all that enjoyable to see Elan abused in such a way.

It helps that I like Nale but don't really like Elan. And like I said, Nale's improv is just the most interesting thing that happens in this comic. Elan? Generic fight scene, peppered with some awful puns that would get him pelted with dice at the table. Haley? Stands by passively watching everything unfold around her like she has for the last 450 comics or so (yes, that's a purposeful exageration). Nale? Gets his butt kicked but manages to turn the situation to his advantage by coming up with a reasonably plausible BS story on the spot and indeed almost had Elan attacking Haley (which was sadly interupted by the "Power of Love!" cliche, but I guess we can count close here...just would've been even more interesting if he had actually wounded or killed her before realizing that Nale was lying).

[Holy_Knight]

It helps that I like Nale but don't really like Elan.
Wow, you really are a monster.


And like I said, Nale's improv is just the most interesting thing that happens in this comic. Elan? Generic fight scene, peppered with some awful puns that would get him pelted with dice at the table. Haley? Stands by passively watching everything unfold around her like she has for the last 450 comics or so (yes, that's a purposeful exageration). Nale? Gets his butt kicked but manages to turn the situation to his advantage by coming up with a reasonably plausible BS story on the spot and indeed almost had Elan attacking Haley (which was sadly interupted by the "Power of Love!" cliche, but I guess we can count close here...just would've been even more interesting if he had actually wounded or killed her before realizing that Nale was lying).
And you took levels in the Mean-Old-Cranky-Pants prestige class!

[wowy319]

It helps that I like Nale but don't really like Elan. And like I said, Nale's improv is just the most interesting thing that happens in this comic. Elan? Generic fight scene, peppered with some awful puns that would get him pelted with dice at the table. Haley? Stands by passively watching everything unfold around her like she has for the last 450 comics or so (yes, that's a purposeful exageration). Nale? Gets his butt kicked but manages to turn the situation to his advantage by coming up with a reasonably plausible BS story on the spot and indeed almost had Elan attacking Haley (which was sadly interupted by the "Power of Love!" cliche, but I guess we can count close here...just would've been even more interesting if he had actually wounded or killed her before realizing that Nale was lying).

geez, does there have to be a pessimistic comment for every comic? And I would hardly say that Haley is inactive at all. she has for a long time been a valuable team player, saving V and Elan, dissing Miko, whupping Sabine and perforating that sorceress chick and also providing us with a good balance of drama and comedy (not to mention the chance to solve a lot of puzzles). and in all honesty, I think if elan had hurt Haley, it would have been over-the-top and way too dark for most peoples' taste. as for the fight scene, I would hardly call that generic; I would call it awesome to the ninth power. and by the way, Haley was unarmed; there wasn't a whole lot that she could do. as for the puns, well, those are a class feature. I loved them, personally.

It bugs me a lot when people post non-constructive criticism. Rich writes the comic the way he sees fit, and to ask him to do anything else is unreasonable. If you don't like the comic and don't have anything constructive to say, don't post about how you disliked it. Constructive criticism is always good, but going on a rant about how much you disliked the comic is just rude.

[Ampersand]

Wow, you really are a monster.

Eh, what can I say? Heroes are tupenace a dozen and can be picked up in every mini mart. Whereas a good villian/antagonist is rarer than unicorn horns. OotS actually has more than it's fair share in that regard. Miko, Nale, Xykon and his Team Evil...they're the main draw for me (though Shojo is one the cusp of being added to that list as well...a few more apparances like his last one and he'll make the cut).


And you took levels in the Mean-Old-Cranky-Pants prestige class!

Yes, but only for the first level Protection from Protagonism ability, which counteracts the potent Enchantment/Charm effect that the main characters of a book/movie/webcomic/whatever have a tendency to put out.


And I would hardly say that Haley is inactive at all.

To me, at least, it seems like ever since she got the aphasia she became largely like Blackwing...she'd be MIA for a long time, show up for a few comics when she was needed or for a token apparance, then go back into the background. It might just be a matter of perception, since she pretty much stopped talking after a while (though whether the Giant planned it that way or moved her to the background because people were complaining about the cryptograms), but it seems like she hasn't had nearly the presence she did in the earlier strips. Of course, she's a dungenering spec rogue as well, and they've been doing a lot of city-based stuff...


and in all honesty, I think if elan had hurt Haley, it would have been over-the-top and way too dark for most peoples' taste.

Yeah, but how many people would have seen it coming? I'm not suggesting that novelty and shock are all that matters, but c'mon...particularly with the long weekend, it would've been the perfect twist, instead of having "The Power of Love!" snap Elan out of it at the last second, which you could've seen like it was a giant on the open plains.


and by the way, Haley was unarmed; there wasn't a whole lot that she could do

Haley seems fairly apt at unarmed sneak attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) (here as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html)) . Since Nale's attention was focused solely on Elan, she easily could've gotten a few good shots in.


as for the puns, well, those are a class feature. I loved them, personally.

The thing I find most amusing about the puns is that they're supposidly how the Dashing Swordsman PrC justifies using Charisma for damage bonus, and Nale came closer to doing a heckuva lot more damage using his Charisma the way nature intended. To paraphrase Belkar, if Elan had hurt Haley of his own (mostly) free will because Nale ran circles around him with a Bluff check (with a little Suggestion for that final nudge), the damage to Elan, Haley, and possibly the OotS as a whole would probably be irreperable.


Rich writes the comic the way he sees fit, and to ask him to do anything else is unreasonable.

I'm not asking him to write or post anything other than what he wants to. I merely posted my reaction to it...if the Giant or anyone else with power on the boards doesn't care for the expressed opinion, they're well within their rights to ban me.


If you don't like the comic and don't have anything constructive to say, don't post about how you disliked it.

I like the comic fine...it's just that I seem to like different aspects of it than other people, and don't get the same warm fuzzies from seeing Haley admit her lust for Elan that others do. *shrug*

[Holy_Knight]

Eh, what can I say? Heroes are tupenace a dozen and can be picked up in every mini mart. Whereas a good villian/antagonist is rarer than unicorn horns. OotS actually has more than it's fair share in that regard. Miko, Nale, Xykon and his Team Evil...they're the main draw for me (though Shojo is one the cusp of being added to that list as well...a few more apparances like his last one and he'll make the cut).

Don't you mean "two pence"? Anyway, I have to disagree with you here. It might be true that "heroes" are common, but heroes worth caring about aren't (more on that below). Either way, I would say that heroes like Elan aren't very common, he's not the usual archetype for one. As for Nale, I've found him enjoyable for most of the comic too. But as of 393, he's crossed so far over into pure sadism that I have a hard time not wanting him to pay for everything he's done. It also wouldn't necessarily be that big of a loss story-wise, since, as you say, we actually have an above average number of good antagonists in the strip already.



Yes, but only for the first level Protection from Protagonism ability, which counteracts the potent Enchantment/Charm effect that the main characters of a book/movie/webcomic/whatever have a tendency to put out.
Hmm... well, as I hinted at above, I certainly don't want the OoTS to win just because they're the protagonists. I care about what happens to Elan, Haley, Roy, and Durkon (in that order) because of who they are as characters. I don't want Belkar to succeed, and while I don't have anything in particular against Vaarsuvius, I'm not really rooting for him per se either.



Yeah, but how many people would have seen it coming? I'm not suggesting that novelty and shock are all that matters, but c'mon...particularly with the long weekend, it would've been the perfect twist, instead of having "The Power of Love!" snap Elan out of it at the last second, which you could've seen like it was a giant on the open plains.
Nah, I think the twist was that Nale was able to come that close to winning the combat, instead of Elan just trouncing him completely. I also think that it would have been too horrible for Elan to have actually hurt Haley like that.



if Elan had hurt Haley of his own (mostly) free will because Nale ran circles around him with a Bluff check (with a little Suggestion for that final nudge), the damage to Elan, Haley, and possibly the OotS as a whole would probably be irreperable.
Which is exactly why it's good that it didn't happen that way. Sometimes, it's nice when good people don't get horribly scarred and destroyed, and plunged forever into an undeserved, tortured misery.



I'm not asking him to write or post anything other than what he wants to. I merely posted my reaction to it...if the Giant or anyone else with power on the boards doesn't care for the expressed opinion, they're well within their rights to ban me.
Don't be silly, you've done nothing to warrant anything like that--this is a discussion board after all.



I like the comic fine...it's just that I seem to like different aspects of it than other people, and don't get the same warm fuzzies from seeing Haley admit her lust for Elan that others do. *shrug*
Oh come on now, it's clearly not just lust...

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Well, as I said before, Elan's a two-time loser. From a legal standpoint, I mean, as I rather like the fellow. He's accused of murder, and he's a fugitive. And if Thog had harmed someone while they were on the run, he'd be responsible, since the big lug was in his custody. This is a very bittersweet moment, because Elan now knows Haley's true feelings, but any minute now, before he's had time to digest it, the Cliffport cops are going to come haul him away. Unless Lord Shojo can wheedle clemency, he might have to sit out the final apocolyptic battle with Xykon in jail.

[The Extinguisher]

Excpet that, Nale's right there with him, so he's not going to get hauled off imediatly. One singing pun and they will figure out who's who.

[Rosemary]

I am soo jumping on the "Poor Haley" bandwagon. I mean the man she loved was about to attack her because of the lyingness of a bad man.

And while I can see why you would admire Nale for his deception I refuse to agree because he has gained like +3 in smelly smelly poopie head for trying to make Elan hurt Haley.

[The Extinguisher]

Bah. You have to admire Nale and his villianry in that comic. Daddy would be proud.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

But what about his recent association with Scoundrel, a known criminal, who just committed a wanton act of destruction of property on the parapet, all while making a comment deliciously peppered with foreshadowing? Plus those cuts and bruises on Nale don't look too good--the cops might figure Elan's a psychopath, shoot first, and ask questions later.

[The Extinguisher]

Except that A) The cops lack an airship, B) they probably don't have teleport, because they would have been there by now, and C) "Nale" died of Vanishing Flu remember.

By the time they do get there, if they are coming, it'll be long resolved.

[Kish]

I can't believe anyone seriously suggested that Elan might sit out the final battle with Xykon in prison because of Nale's scheme.

[Felyndaer]

As to Elan or Haley getting hurt more, here's something to add...
It all suddenly happens to haley in a five-minute torturefest. I admit that that is horrible, but look at what happened to Elan, not just in #393.
He gets arrested and sits about in prison, in a teary pool of hopelessness.
He finagles his way out with a great idea, then goes off and commits a crime. Afterwards, he gets denied a chance to get to his friends, then mopes about a bar in another teary hopelessness phase. he is offered another chance, and he puts two full days towards training to save his buddies, and finally gets back..
Then is told that everything he went through and did had no effect, and that he was being screwed over since day one. Since he has developed more wisdom than he had before, he is finally able to comprehend how crappy that is for him. I think that's a bit harsher than what most of you are giving credit for.

[Setra]

As to Elan or Haley getting hurt more, here's something to add...
It all suddenly happens to haley in a five-minute torturefest. I admit that that is horrible, but look at what happened to Elan, not just in #393.
He gets arrested and sits about in prison, in a teary pool of hopelessness.
He finagles his way out with a great idea, then goes off and commits a crime. Afterwards, he gets denied a chance to get to his friends, then mopes about a bar in another teary hopelessness phase. he is offered another chance, and he puts two full days towards training to save his buddies, and finally gets back..
Then is told that everything he went through and did had no effect, and that he was being screwed over since day one. Since he has developed more wisdom than he had before, he is finally able to comprehend how crappy that is for him. I think that's a bit harsher than what most of you are giving credit for.

Overall true, however I do think, specifically, that Nale's Trickery, hurt Haley more than it hurt Elan.

It's obvious that Elan was suffering beforehand, though at least he got to release some frustration on Nale.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Except that A) The cops lack an airship
B) they probably don't have teleport
They might not be able to get there in person, but they can send a messenger with a scroll. Now I don't know what the extradition laws are like in OotS-World, but would Shojo be obliged to honor a request to turn an escaped criminal who crossed territory lines over to another sovereign? Or will he just play senile as usual and hope it blows over?


C) "Nale" died of Vanishing Flu
Yes, but Elan is a fool--a nice enough fellow, but sadly a fool--and the two officers must be bigger ones for falling for an admittedly lame ruse. I know if two officers in my employ came to me with such a story I'd first have their badges, and then try to figure out where the escapee went. Those two aren't exactly subtle; the wires must be humming with reports on an escaped killer and his half-orc pal. Maybe Elan won't miss the battle, but Roy and his pals will have enough to do sorting out the brothers' mess without having to deal with ol' Bonehead battering down the city gates....

[War]

Heh, I was also more on the "poor Haley" side, although in my case it was more like "Well, that's pretty clever for an off-the-cuff effort, but -- wait, he's seriously buying it? Sucks to be Haley."

C'mon, it's all right to be suspicious, but you don't just start ignoring the manipulative villain mid-beatdown because of something he says. You keep an eye on Haley to make sure she's not actually attacking while you finish off Nale (or whatever goodguys do instead of finishing off), then go over his story and immediately realize that it's full of holes.

No one ever accused Elan of having common sense, though. And it's more dramatic this way, so he pretty much had to fall for it. Ah well, that's just the kind of thing you sign up for by falling for him. (I like the guy, mind you, and I'm sure everyone is vulnerable to some trick or another, but that doesn't mean he's not dumb!) Sucks to be Haley!

[Mike_G]

I feel bad for Elan that the woman who loves him "complimented" him when she called him "oddly effective Elan."

Rmenmber, she thinks he's not useless, just "use impaired."

[Ampersand]

Don't you mean "two pence"?

Tupence is an acceptable variation (particularly if you're Terry Pratchett :smallsmile: ) and is generally used to indicate a thicker accent.


Anyway, I have to disagree with you here. It might be true that "heroes" are common, but heroes worth caring about aren't (more on that below). Either way, I would say that heroes like Elan aren't very common, he's not the usual archetype for one.

There's no real arguing with that...in most other instances Elan probably wouldn't rate above "goofy sidekick". Upon reflection, maybe that's why I find it so hard to like him...he may be giving off a "comic relief bumped up to main character status" vibe that I can't get over.


As for Nale, I've found him enjoyable for most of the comic too. But as of 393, he's crossed so far over into pure sadism that I have a hard time not wanting him to pay for everything he's done.

Heh...my main concern now is if he'll be able to top that, actually, or if he's reached his peak and should be looking into Old Villians' Homes (Hey, he's 21, which is ancient for a direct nemesis of a PC).

And Nale will almost certantly pay for what he's done...theatrics (which is a big part of his and Elan's theme) and general D&D-ness pretty much demand it. Maybe not any time soon, but Nale will almost definitely get some sort of comeupance. (Of course, maybe part of Elan's happy ending is that he manages to reconcile with Nale somehow...Elan is the type who'd probably be sad if his brother died, even moreso if he was the one who had to do it, no matter what Nale had done) I've come to accept that, and while the inevitability looms like a dark cloud I've decided to just enjoy the ride.


It also wouldn't necessarily be that big of a loss story-wise, since, as you say, we actually have an above average number of good antagonists in the strip already.

Just guessing, but I imagine that the Linear Guild storyline will be resolved one way or another a decent chunk before any sort of final showdown with Xykon occurs.


Hmm... well, as I hinted at above, I certainly don't want the OoTS to win just because they're the protagonists. I care about what happens to Elan, Haley, Roy, and Durkon (in that order) because of who they are as characters. I don't want Belkar to succeed, and while I don't have anything in particular against Vaarsuvius, I'm not really rooting for him per se either.

My main point was that people have a tendency to give protagonists "Get out of Responsability Free" cards just because they're the protagonists. Again, probably just a D&D-ism (the PCs are definitely held to different standards than the rest of the world in the average game. My favorite example of this is Roy...everyone cheers when he tells off Miko for being close minded and judgemental...and then he turns around, acts exactly the same way, and no one bats an eye.


Nah, I think the twist was that Nale was able to come that close to winning the combat, instead of Elan just trouncing him completely. I also think that it would have been too horrible for Elan to have actually hurt Haley like that.

I guess it comes down to how much tragic releif one likes in one's comedy. :smallsmile: I admit that my preference for Elan to have actually hurt Haley before breaking the Suggestion stems at least partially from a desire to see the group dynamics of the OotS shook up a bit. They really seem to be in something a rut...even the "Look, Belkar is being evil!" thing is starting to wear. While Haley's revalation might set the grouip up for some office romance jokes, I don't really see it greatly altering the way the group functions. A sudden and profound mistrust between the two members everyone (for the most part) likes, on the other hand...


Oh come on now, it's clearly not just lust...

While Haley's attraction to Elan has clearly matured as the strip has progressed, I'm personally not convinced that it's still not based primarily on a physical attraction. Elan clearly has that effect on women, Samantha, the Azure City party goers, and Haley herself being the most notable examples. It was only a few minutes after she met him that she first started flirting, after all, and only a few days before her first attempt to see what his "under the hood Charisma" was. And, as you have probably guessed from the fact that I like Nale and have levels in the Mean-Old-Cranky-Pants class, I don't believe in love at first sight, either. :smallsmile:

I'd say that at this point Haley's attraction is probably 70-30 physical-emotional. (Just because she says that she's in love doesn't mean it's so, after all...) Maybe once she starts seriously dealing with her own problems (whittle down the mental constructs to an even 100 or so, for example) she'll be able to truly fall in love with Elan.

[krossbow]

Meh, Elan hurting Haley would be the worst possible thing to happen to the strip.

Look at Elan; even with his new maturation, do you really think his psyche could handle that? Elan's horrible at fending off guilt; thats the main way his conscious got him before with Nale. He can't handle the thought of making someone unhappy. So if He actually hurt or god forbid, killed haley, what do you think would happen to his mind? He'd shatter like a dropped vase, and end up in a corner rocking back and forth.
________
New Mexico Dispensaries (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

[Setra]

Meh, Elan hurting Haley would be the worst possible thing to happen to the strip.

Look at Elan; even with his new maturation, do you really think his psyche could handle that? Elan's horrible at fending off guilt; thats the main way his conscious got him before with Nale. He can't handle the thought of making someone unhappy. So if He actually hurt or god forbid, killed haley, what do you think would happen to his mind? He'd shatter like a dropped vase, and end up in a corner rocking back and forth.

Elan would crack, turn Chaotic Evil, eviscerate Nale, then kill himself.

[Amon Star]

then mopes about a bar in another teary hopelessness phase.

Sorry to nitpick, but you're selling :elan: a little short. He wasn't moping in that bar at all, but in the middle of a plan to get to Azure City and save Haley.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html

[Felyndaer]

Sorry to nitpick, but you're selling :elan: a little short. He wasn't moping in that bar at all, but in the middle of a plan to get to Azure City and save Haley.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html

Ah! You're correct, i'm sorry.
I totally forgot that he was whistling and happy.
One helluva plan though, eh?

[Caractacus]

Don't you mean "two pence"?

I reckon it was a slightly mistyped 'tuppence'..., so, yeah. Two pence it is.:smalltongue:


I don't want Belkar to succeed, and while I don't have anything in particular against Vaarsuvius, I'm not really rooting for him per se either.

What! Vaarsuuvius is wonderful! :smallannoyed:


I also think that it would have been too horrible for Elan to have actually hurt Haley like that.

Too right. :smallfurious:


Sometimes, it's nice when good people don't get horribly scarred and destroyed, and plunged forever into an undeserved, tortured misery.

This had me in fits. :smallcool:


Oh come on now, it's clearly not just lust...

Of course, it's probably got that dimension too - see the 'under the hood' reference, but let's face it, she has agonised over whether she is deserving of him and whether he would leave her - that quite obviously isn't only lust talking. Aaaaw...:smallredface:

[Amon Star]

Ah! You're correct, i'm sorry.
I totally forgot that he was whistling and happy.
One helluva plan though, eh?

Yeah, and I still want to know what it was!

[Tiako]

It was supposed to be chaotic; I thought all the fractured dialog in the last few panels did wonders to heighten the tension and drama of the situation.
I wasn't complaining, just commenting.

[Hallavast]

It seems some people are rather touchy about people saying a word against Rich's work. What's wrong with pointing out what you don't like about something?

[Holy_Knight]

There's no real arguing with that...in most other instances Elan probably wouldn't rate above "goofy sidekick". Upon reflection, maybe that's why I find it so hard to like him...he may be giving off a "comic relief bumped up to main character status" vibe that I can't get over.
Hmm, I don't know, I never really thought of Elan as comic relief. Maybe it's because in a lot of ways ALL of the OoTS seem like comic relief...



And Nale will almost certantly pay for what he's done...theatrics (which is a big part of his and Elan's theme) and general D&D-ness pretty much demand it. Maybe not any time soon, but Nale will almost definitely get some sort of comeupance. (Of course, maybe part of Elan's happy ending is that he manages to reconcile with Nale somehow...Elan is the type who'd probably be sad if his brother died, even moreso if he was the one who had to do it, no matter what Nale had done) I've come to accept that, and while the inevitability looms like a dark cloud I've decided to just enjoy the ride.
I agree that he'll get his comeuppance at some point. The redemption and reconciliation angle seems pretty unlikely at this point--he seems too far gone for that to be a possibility.



My main point was that people have a tendency to give protagonists "Get out of Responsability Free" cards just because they're the protagonists. Again, probably just a D&D-ism (the PCs are definitely held to different standards than the rest of the world in the average game. My favorite example of this is Roy...everyone cheers when he tells off Miko for being close minded and judgemental...and then he turns around, acts exactly the same way, and no one bats an eye.
Yeah, I agree with you on this, both in general and as regards Roy (although he's not nearly as good an example as Belkar, for heaven's sake.)



I guess it comes down to how much tragic releif one likes in one's comedy. :smallsmile:
Nice line! :smile:



I admit that my preference for Elan to have actually hurt Haley before breaking the Suggestion stems at least partially from a desire to see the group dynamics of the OotS shook up a bit. They really seem to be in something a rut...even the "Look, Belkar is being evil!" thing is starting to wear. While Haley's revalation might set the grouip up for some office romance jokes, I don't really see it greatly altering the way the group functions. A sudden and profound mistrust between the two members everyone (for the most part) likes, on the other hand...
I can see what you mean by this, and it certainly would shake up the dynamics like you say--I just don't think they could survive that level of a tragedy (at the very least Elan probably couldn't), so I'm glad it didn't happen.

Meh, Elan hurting Haley would be the worst possible thing to happen to the strip.

Look at Elan; even with his new maturation, do you really think his psyche could handle that? Elan's horrible at fending off guilt; thats the main way his conscious got him before with Nale. He can't handle the thought of making someone unhappy. So if He actually hurt or god forbid, killed haley, what do you think would happen to his mind? He'd shatter like a dropped vase, and end up in a corner rocking back and forth.
I agree.



While Haley's attraction to Elan has clearly matured as the strip has progressed, I'm personally not convinced that it's still not based primarily on a physical attraction. Elan clearly has that effect on women, Samantha, the Azure City party goers, and Haley herself being the most notable examples. It was only a few minutes after she met him that she first started flirting, after all, and only a few days before her first attempt to see what his "under the hood Charisma" was. And, as you have probably guessed from the fact that I like Nale and have levels in the Mean-Old-Cranky-Pants class, I don't believe in love at first sight, either. :smallsmile:

I'd say that at this point Haley's attraction is probably 70-30 physical-emotional. (Just because she says that she's in love doesn't mean it's so, after all...) Maybe once she starts seriously dealing with her own problems (whittle down the mental constructs to an even 100 or so, for example) she'll be able to truly fall in love with Elan.
I think the evidence is against you here. It may be true that just because she says she loves him doesn't mean she definitely does (and for the record, I don't beleive in love at first sight either), but it certainly makes it more likely. She seems to believe that she's in love with him, and if she weren't really in love with him, or at least very close, then many of her actions wouldn't make sense at this point. If she were just physically attracted to him, why think that was a significant enough secret to be linked to her aphasia? If it were just that, why would she be so afraid of being hurt by Elan's possible rejection? I think it has to be much deeper than simple lust, or even mainly lust. Also, given that Elan does tend to have that sort of effect on women in general, as you say, and given his potentially hard to deal with personality, the fact that Haley has not by now decided that her attraction to Elan was just superficial after all strongly suggests that it really is love.





What! Vaarsuuvius is wonderful! :smallannoyed:
Well, yeah... and I do like him, it's just that he doens't seem particularly noble, so I don't have the same wish to see him succeed as I do some of the others.




This had me in fits. :smallcool:
Thanks!




Of course, it's probably got that dimension too - see the 'under the hood' reference, but let's face it, she has agonised over whether she is deserving of him and whether he would leave her - that quite obviously isn't only lust talking. Aaaaw...:smallredface:
Yeah, she certainly does appreciate the way he looks, but she is in love with him too.

EDIT: Oh, I meant to say this before:


he has gained like +3 in smelly smelly poopie head for trying to make Elan hurt Haley.
Absolutely love it. Welcome to the forums, Rosemary. :smile:

[Ampersand]

I agree that he'll get his comeuppance at some point. The redemption and reconciliation angle seems pretty unlikely at this point--he seems too far gone for that to be a possibility.

Oh, I agree. I just don't think that Elan will pass up a chance to at least offer the possibility to Nale. I believe that Elan would prefer to have Nale alive if at all possible, and if Nale does die Elan would be sad. Not necessarily because he missed Nale, but more because he understood the potential for good that Nale squandered during his life.


Yeah, I agree with you on this, both in general and as regards Roy (although he's not nearly as good an example as Belkar, for heaven's sake.)

Well, Belkar is pretty unequivably evil, and he doesn't really pretend otherwise. If there was any doubt before the trial, his opportunistic murder of the guard and subsequent torture and baiting of Miko (not to mention writing a challenge to her on the wall in said guard's blood) in an attempt to get her to fall pretty much solidified it. Roy, by contrast, makes it very plain that he feels that he's better and more Good than his father, Miko, and Shojo (though Shojo is debatable on that point...we know he's not Lawful and most likely not Evil, but you could make arguments for both Good and Neutral) on numerous occasions. Thus I felt he was a better example.


I can see what you mean by this, and it certainly would shake up the dynamics like you say--I just don't think they could survive that level of a tragedy (at the very least Elan probably couldn't), so I'm glad it didn't happen.

Well, as you say, it didn't happen, so we can only speculate. :smallsmile: But it probably would have made the comic much darker than a lot of people would've liked. Me? I like dark. But I can totally understand why other people (and proably the majority of those who read OotS) don't.


If she were just physically attracted to him, why think that was a significant enough secret to be linked to her aphasia?

She also thought that the fact she kissed a girl was a significant enough secret. :smallsmile:


If it were just that, why would she be so afraid of being hurt by Elan's possible rejection?

Rejection hurts no matter what the situation. Someone coming out and saying "No, I don't think you're good enough" is always a blow to the ego.

And, as we see in her thoughts and internal monolouges/conversations with her personality aspects, like a lot of sneaky characters Haley has issues with trust and the general way she relates to people. It's a lot easier (and not nearly as scary) to avoid the situation entirely and tell yourself that you can't win, so there's no point in trying. "Hiding is my best skill" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) and all that.


Also, given that Elan does tend to have that sort of effect on women in general, as you say, and given his potentially hard to deal with personality, the fact that Haley has not by now decided that her attraction to Elan was just superficial after all strongly suggests that it really is love.

Hard to deal with personality? Heck, even Belkar, of all people likes Elan, even if it's just because he makes our psychotic little halfling laugh. "Roy has boobies" :smallsmile:

Heck, the only two people I can think of who I'd say actively dislike Elan are Nale (and...yeah...we know about him...) and Miko (and that's more because of his association with the OotS than anything else, I'd wager).

[Holy_Knight]

Oh, I agree. I just don't think that Elan will pass up a chance to at least offer the possibility to Nale. I believe that Elan would prefer to have Nale alive if at all possible, and if Nale does die Elan would be sad. Not necessarily because he missed Nale, but more because he understood the potential for good that Nale squandered during his life.
Yes, that sounds right.



Well, Belkar is pretty unequivably evil, and he doesn't really pretend otherwise. If there was any doubt before the trial, his opportunistic murder of the guard and subsequent torture and baiting of Miko (not to mention writing a challenge to her on the wall in said guard's blood) in an attempt to get her to fall pretty much solidified it. Roy, by contrast, makes it very plain that he feels that he's better and more Good than his father, Miko, and Shojo (though Shojo is debatable on that point...we know he's not Lawful and most likely not Evil, but you could make arguments for both Good and Neutral) on numerous occasions. Thus I felt he was a better example.
I see what you mean here, and agree that Roy is a better example from that standpoint. On the other hand, I still think Belkar is a better example in terms of how unreasonable is the amount of slack people give him. I agree that Roy doesn't always live up to the standard of goodness that people ascribe to him (or that he sets for himself), but we've still got people claiming that Belkar is somehow not really evil--which is only at all explainable in terms of protagonist bias.



Well, as you say, it didn't happen, so we can only speculate. :smallsmile: But it probably would have made the comic much darker than a lot of people would've liked. Me? I like dark. But I can totally understand why other people (and proably the majority of those who read OotS) don't.
Well, I do like dark in general--just not in this case, I suppose.



She also thought that the fact she kissed a girl was a significant enough secret. :smallsmile:
Not exactly. That was one of the many things that she tried only after what she really thought was the big secret didn't work--namely, "Elan, I'm in love with you. Completely in love. Love, love, love!" Besides that fact, there's no reason to think it was a secret that Haley thought he was physically attractive. Elan has random women hitting on him just by walking down the street--it would be a surprise if Haley didn't think he was good looking. That she doesn't just think he's cute, but rather truly loves him as a person, however--that would qualify as a secret, and a significant one at that.



Rejection hurts no matter what the situation. Someone coming out and saying "No, I don't think you're good enough" is always a blow to the ego.
Yes, but it's unclear that admitting that she finds him attractive physically would risk some sort of rejection--whereas admitting that she is in love with him necessarily risks that.



Hard to deal with personality? Heck, even Belkar, of all people likes Elan, even if it's just because he makes our psychotic little halfling laugh. "Roy has boobies" :smallsmile:

Oh, I know, and I think he's the most likable character in the strip. What I meant was, there are things about him which can be irritating or exasperating (especially viewed in the context of a relationship), even to those who like him. That makes it pretty likely that superficial attractions wouldn't last, whereas those sorts of things wouldn't be enough to deter someone who really loved him.

[Ampersand]

I see what you mean here, and agree that Roy is a better example from that standpoint. On the other hand, I still think Belkar is a better example in terms of how unreasonable is the amount of slack people give him. I agree that Roy doesn't always live up to the standard of goodness that people ascribe to him (or that he sets for himself), but we've still got people claiming that Belkar is somehow not really evil--which is only at all explainable in terms of protagonist bias.

Oooh, I'm going to have to see if I can dig up one of those threads. I'd love to see the logical gymnastics it'd take to come to the conclusion that Belkar wasn't evil.


That she doesn't just think he's cute, but rather truly loves him as a person, however--that would qualify as a secret, and a significant one at that.

Point. I guess I'm a bit reluctant to just take Haley's word for it that she's actually in love for two reasons: first, she's very obviously skilled at lying (both to others and to herself, viz the entire "personality fragments" subplot) and second she hasn't really demonstrated any sort of real romantic attraction to Elan: it's always been physical innuendo. The closest she gets is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html), blushing at a compliment Elan gives her. Now, granted both that the middle of a fight or while crawling through a dungeon isn't the best place to confess one's love, and that the sheer number of characters means the strip can't focus on Elan and Haley all the time, the romantic subplot has been rather inconsistent in its presentation. That leads me to believe that what Haley feels for Elan isn't actual love.



What I meant was, there are things about him which can be irritating or exasperating (especially viewed in the context of a relationship), even to those who like him.

Case in point? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html):smallsmile:


That makes it pretty likely that superficial attractions wouldn't last, whereas those sorts of things wouldn't be enough to deter someone who really loved him.

I agree. But still, how long have they known each other? Certantly not long enough to have formed a meaningful relationship. Judging from the adventures referenced, Sir Francois was one of Elan's most patient employers but even he eventually left. Haley is nowhere near as patient as he was, and she's only known Elan for about six months, and that's if we're being generous with the time skips...