3.5e Rogue of Squishiness!

[lilwolfe006]

Was hoping to find some suggestions on how to counter my unfathomable luck at rolling for hit points. :P

I'm currently playing in a 3.5e game with a home rule that allows for some beginning epicness. In short, everyone got to add an extra d6 roll to two stats. As a Rogue, and with the idea of being a sort of 'gentleman highwayman' type, (er gentlewoman I guess...) I took Dex and Int as my two high stats.

I'm really happy with the character and have had ample opportunities to shine as the diplomatic, well polished, noble born sort.

...but! The rest of the party opted to throw that epicness into their con scores, so as we hit level 6-7, I am partying around with folks who have hit points in the 60-80's! And I'm sitting squishy at 32. Needless to say, the things we're facing to challenge our huskier adventures, can wallop me into obliteration.

I took improved toughness as a feat, and at level 8 I will be bumping my con from 13-14. I even took a level of fighter (just this most recent one) in hopes of rolling some hp but Murphy laughed at me and I got a 1!

Anyway - I'm bound and determined to stick with it and learn to survive around the squishiness. I have a decent AC right now. (+6 due to my dex, and I am wearing +3 mithril shirt, so I have an AC of 23.) I have dodge, combat expertise and weapon finesse, so when I fight defensively, I get up to a 27 without sacrificing /too/ much attack bonus.

I am not very experienced with hunting down the best possible feats/armor/gear and set up to play with. (The guys in the group typically walk me through their suggestions and stuff.) And I have perused a few of the previous posts on here. I was just hoping that the real scholars of the system could throw out their recommendations for a run of the mill game, human rogue/fighter as to how to either increase my HP, or my AC, so that I have a little more breathing room. :)

Thanks all!

[pilvento]

more than the obvious, more con and imp-thougness feat.

I recomend to ask your dm to change that last fighter feat and go for swashbuckler and continuing geting swashbucker feats, at lvl 9 get darning outlaw so your rouge features stack with your swashbuckler lvls.

1d6 to 1d10 and full bab, not a bad start.

There is a very nice feat called Shadow Striker in player handbook 2.
check it out, its not only fun to play arround it but it will also keep you safe.

Hp comes from CON and HitDie so after 8 lvls of rouge there is no much you can do. if your dm knows you are having a bad time you can retrain even more lvls. rouge3/swashbucker X its all you need to be a competent flanker, also if you have high int, you get int to dmg.

[Scythal]

What books are available? Which feats did you already take? What level are you aiming for and I assume you're rogue 6/fighter 1 ?

[lilwolfe006]

Rogue 6, Fighter 1 *just leveled last night so it doesn't /have/ to be a fighter level. We're hoping to play this up to 20. (I've never gotten past level 13 in a game before so this is all new ground to me.)

STR 13
DEX 22
CON 13 (raised from 12 at level 4)
INT 20
WIS 15
CHA 17

Current Feats are:
Improved Initiative
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Improved Toughness (bonus feat from GM)

Pretty much all the books are available, but I haven't been looking into prestige classes or anything outside of the normal classes, because the GM's story has been awarding us powers as we level up according to the plot. There's nothing to say we can't go into other classes though. Though I don't think he'd be keen on anything too unusual.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum will allow you to put your int to use by adding it to AC and attack/damage. At level 3, also adds int to dex and str checks.

[pilvento]

With those feats and lvl not only i insist on going Rouge6/Swash 4 then PRC or more Swash.

You qualify for einhander feat for more ac and nice defensive tricks.

Complete warrior for Swash
Player handbook 2 for tactical feats

[vendur]

Got a wizard? maybe you can lobby him/her into picking up the awesomeness of greater invis. Should be just about the point where your arcane casters should be getting that spell level.

[Gavinfoxx]

Find a Level 8 or 9 Dread Necromancer, with the feats Corpsecrafter, Bolster Resistance, Nimble Bones, and Hardened Flesh, who has a Deadwalker's Ring, and an altar to an evil god, to make you Necropolitan.

That gives you:

+2 Natural Armor
+4 Initiative
+10' land speed
+4 Enhancement to Strength
+4 Enhancement to Dexterity
+6 Hit points per hit dice, with a D12 hit dice (you would reroll all but your first, which would be maxxed, as you are a player character)
+4 Turn Resistance
Undead type
Necropolitan racial features

[tyckspoon]

If you're only using one weapon, definitely get something in that other hand - a masterwork (or Mithral/Darkwood) Buckler or Light Shield has no penalties and can provide an inexpensive source of 3ish more points of AC depending on how much you can spend on it.

If you can retrain more than just your latest level, Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3 would give you a couple more levels of d10 Hit Dice and let you apply your Intelligence to your damage. I wouldn't suggest going deeper than that, most of the Swashbuckler class features are not impressive and they're missing some of the skills you probably want from being a Rogue. (Note that Swashbuckler gives Weapon Finesse as a bonus at 1st level - since you already have this, inquire with your DM about retraining your Finesse selection or choosing something different with the Swashbuckler bonus feat.)

You can also try investing in other magic items; an Amulet of Tears (Magic Item Compendium) is fairly inexpensive and can give you 12 temp HP up to 3 times a day as a Swift action, for example.

[Darrin]

Another trick: Take the Planar Touchstone feat (via Planar Rogue levels if need be), link it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and get the Luck Domain power.

If you know you're very close to leveling up, make sure you DO NOT use your Luck Domain power that day. When you level up and roll for HPs, and of course you roll a "1", use your Luck Domain to reroll it.

[gorfnab]

Fistful of D6: Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)
I recommend going, taking into account your previous levels: Rogue 6/ Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler (see if your DM will let you trade out the Weapon Finesse for a different feat like Craven, pick up Daring Outlaw feat) 3/ Swordsage (this gets you Wis mod to AC and Dex mod to damage if you take the feat Shadowblade, Assassin's Stance gets you 2d6 more sneak attack, Gloom Razor feat gives you some interesting combat options) 2/ Swashbuckler (see Daring Outlaw feat) 8

[Chronos]

Make your hit points irrelevant, by making sure you never get hit. Make sure you never get hit, by making sure you never get targeted. Make sure you never get targeted, by never being seen or heard. This is the way of the rogue.

[Alefiend]

Make your hit points irrelevant, by making sure you never get hit. Make sure you never get hit, by making sure you never get targeted. Make sure you never get targeted, by never being seen or heard. This is the way of the rogue.

This FTW. To survive, you've got to play like a coward smart and tactical.

Don't draw attention to yourself unless you're doing some big bluff/intimidate/diplomacy thing along with your shout of "Stand and deliver!" (The Highwaymen's Local will rescind your union card if you don't say this at least once a session.)

When things go wrong, as they always will, your big burly fighter friends should be waiting to charge in ahead of you and get the enemies' attention by hitting them in their faces. This should give you enough distraction to Stealth out of there and position yourself for some back door lovin' stabbin'.

Don't be ashamed of squealing like a frightened child and sprinting in the other direction if you need to make your own distraction and/or break line of sight. An opponent who runs in sphincter-dilating terror is generally assumed to not be a threat anymore, and that's where you can shine.

[Nagukuk]

The above posts about retraining to add swashbuckler lvls etc, are all good ideas

Also

Look for some miss chance. AC is good but usually investing in it too heavily does not pay off.

UMD a wand of mirror image, have a wand chamber added to your current or next weapon, and you always have it in your hand.

UMD any other wands you can get your fingers on...

heck even a wand of bears endurance would be handy in the short term

Or as stated above go with invisibility/greater for miss chance and sneak attack chance.

There is a displacement spell,, but I don't remember the lvl.

Also cloak of displacement/greater for miss chance. but more gold.


also, don't be afraid to use missile weapons against your foes. You may be a "swashbuckler" type but you don't always have to melee. Fling some daggers use a hand xbow or two (rogues are proficient) etc.

ask the DM if you can switch your base Con with your Base wisdom (as the HP disparity is making you fret.) It will hurt your will save a bit but boost your hp by 16 at lvl 8 shifting the bonus from +1 to +3

[Prince Raven]

Let your allies soak up the damage, they can take it. In my previous group we had a half-orc barbarian with high con that would always have enlarge person cast on him, my halfling rogue spent a lot of the time in fights around his ankles trying not be noticed.

[rot42]

I like to mitigate the "nothing but ones for HP" problem by houseruling that you get half your HD size free and roll for the other half. Taking a level of Fighter would give 5 + d5 + Con HP, or Rogue would get 3 + d3 + Con. It narrows the hit point spread within a class, but it does yield higher totals.

The Amulet of Tears mentioned above would pretty much bring you to effective HP parity. A Shadowy Diadem from Dragon Magic is one of the cheapest sources of a good miss chance from an item. What urbane bandit could resist the shadows themselves rising up to preserve her aura of mystery (and skin). Panic Buttons from Complete Scoundrel can get you out of a tight spot with a Swift action boost to Tumble or Move Silently or a short range teleport.

If you have invested skill ranks in Use Magic Device, a number of spells provide temporary hit points (or anything else you might fancy). Heart of Earth from Complete Mage is quite nice in that regard, but access to fourth level spells is pretty pricey. A wand of Swift Invisibility (Spell Compendium) is quite affordable, though, and worth carrying in a wand chamber (Dungeonscape).

The feat Combat Panache from PHB II allows a once per combat ability to play dead (and rise up and strike your foes in their squishy backsides). It is available as a Fighter feat, but does require significant ranks in Perform.

[Scythal]

As said before, try to retrain weapon finess (because swash 1 will give it back) for craven.

Then, you're actually rogue 6/X 1, so go Swahbuckler 8, that leave you 6 levels.
If you don't use the XP penalty, go rogue +2, fighter 4.

For feats, if you go close combat, get the Two weapon fighting chain, combat reflexes, vexing flanker (phb 2), darkstalker (lord of madness), daring outlaw.

Try to always flank your target so that you get a +6 to hit (flank, improve flanking(swash8) and vexing flanker), it will help your 3rd attacks actually hit and maybe your 4th.

Try to get true death crystals and wands of golem strike, and appart from that, classic rogue stuff.

[lilwolfe006]

This FTW. To survive, you've got to play like a coward smart and tactical.

Don't draw attention to yourself unless you're doing some big bluff/intimidate/diplomacy thing along with your shout of "Stand and deliver!" (The Highwaymen's Local will rescind your union card if you don't say this at least once a session.)

When things go wrong, as they always will, your big burly fighter friends should be waiting to charge in ahead of you and get the enemies' attention by hitting them in their faces. This should give you enough distraction to Stealth out of there and position yourself for some back door lovin' stabbin'.

Don't be ashamed of squealing like a frightened child and sprinting in the other direction if you need to make your own distraction and/or break line of sight. An opponent who runs in sphincter-dilating terror is generally assumed to not be a threat anymore, and that's where you can shine.

^This was much needed today! (Hectic day at work.) Hilarious. And helpful!

I think a few levels of Swashbuckler is what I am leaning toward. Especially if I can swap out the one weapon finesse for craven. The int bonus on the damage is a nice perk too.

Will keep looking into better sneaky-sneak tactics. Opt for being good at movement and hiding so as not to be targeted so much. Then I'll throw the big thugs at the baddies.

Thanks all!

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. Reading the problem I think I'm going to reference Admiral Fischer... even though he was wrong in life, in game it works out much better. "Speed is armor" he said, suggesting that if something was too fast to get decisively caught in battle, it didn't matter how fragile it was.

Rather than try to hulk up the Rogue, I might suggest going for that angle instead. Your HP is low, and generally there's no much you can do about it. Pick up a level of Barbarian for a d12 next level, and rage for an extra +1 per level? Well, on top of what you're already doing it. But the point is that you're not going to get a lot of mileage doing that, generally speaking. I'm sure there's some trick I'm not thinking of. Beyond turning yourself undead and hoping you get lucky on the unmodified d12s.

But as a rogue you probably could go for optimizing Stealth and Speed. As much as mounted combat in general is mocked and considered a poor choice... Speed is the advantage it gives you. If the enemy can only go 30' per round, and you have a 60' per round movement rate via mount? Grab your bow and go whittle him down.

But stealth is probably the better option for you, as, at least with Stealth, you can make better, easier use of your sneak attack. You have to play like an older edition Thief, rather than the familiar rogue. Don't just flank and stab to maximize, but lurk, hide, and take advantage of ranged sneak attacks to pop someone in the back of the head. You can only do it every other round... but it's easy to optimize skill checks. Picking up a feat like Darkstalker is gravy. Soon, sure, you might be squishy... but your enemies have to FIND you. And even if they know what square you are in? That miss chance of not being able to spot you is much better than maxing AC (Though if you can do both, do so). The low HP shouldn't matter when they can't touch it.