The IFCC are lying (clearly) in 897

[1chapelcredit]

I'm sure this must have been discussed when the strip first came out, but now that the Elf is about to return to the land of the living, it seems like an appropriate time to bring it up. There is a lot of discussion right now centered around "when will the IFCC choose to take Vaarsuvius out of the picture again?" and "how will the IFCC being able to incapacitate V whenever they choose affect his/her usefulness/emotional state/hair style?"

All legitimate questions, but they really hinge on the assumption that Director Lee was telling V the truth about only being able to temporarily withdraw his soul, instead of being able to use his body (and presumably his powers) for their own purposes. But this seems like a pretty unreasonable assumption, given that 1. they have lied to V before, 2. they are, you know, evil... 3. we know that V didn't read the contract, 4. it would be a pretty useful lie, and 5. it would be a lot more interesting, plot-wise.

So much of the latest discussion has been about whether or not V will tell Roy and the rest of the team. If he does explain everything, no doubt they will think of losing V at a crucial time as the worst case scenario, when the true worst case scenario might be getting a disintegration to the back at a crucial moment, the use of V's high-level caster status in manipulating the Ritual, the return of Darth V (but this time REALLY evil), or something even worse.

Am I'm missing some evidence that leads us to believe Lee is telling the truth?

[strijder20]

Well, Lee is Lawful Evil for starters. I'm sure he's going to avoid lying when he has other options.

[1chapelcredit]

Well, Lee is Lawful Evil for starters. I'm sure he's going to avoid lying when he has other options.

I thought about addressing this up front, but decided against it. Tarkin is lawful evil too, and has set-up his entire kingdom based on intricate lies. Lots of lawful evil characters lie. Good one's too, for that matter... Pretty much everybody but Paladins, unless there's a counter example I missed.

[Rakoa]

All that he said was that they can't put a soul into V's body. He never said that they cannot otherwise manipulate V's body for their own purposes...

[luc258]

If I remember correctly when V made the deal the wording was his/her soul will be spending some time with each of the IFCC. This is exactly what happened. Possession is not exactly what that said.

From a story point of view I think this is also about showing how something that sounded relatively harmless (being out for a couple of hours max) in exchange for ultimate arcane power was something really, really bad in retrospect.

That is my opinion, that does not mean your idea is wrong of course. We will find out in time.

[Rakoa]

If I remember correctly when V made the deal the wording was his/her soul will be spending some time with each of the IFCC. This is exactly what happened. Possession is not exactly what that said.

From a story point of view I think this is also about showing how something that sounded relatively harmless (being out for a couple of hours max) in exchange for ultimate arcane power was something really, really bad in retrospect.

That is my opinion, that does not mean your idea is wrong of course. We will find out in time.

I don't think we should trust what an IFCC pawn has to say on the matter.

[luc258]

I don't think we should trust what an IFCC pawn has to say on the matter.

We are all IFCC pawns, some just don't know that they are.

[Amphiox]

I thought about addressing this up front, but decided against it. Tarkin is lawful evil too, and has set-up his entire kingdom based on intricate lies. Lots of lawful evil characters lie. Good one's too, for that matter... Pretty much everybody but Paladins, unless there's a counter example I missed.

Yeah, but Lee is not some flawed mortal trying to live up to the requirements of the Lawful Evil alignment who may or may not earn brownie points for trying. He's a Devil. A being if pure unadulterated Lawful Evil.

Devils in most depiction never lie. The speak truths in deceptive ways, but the words themselves are never false.

[Winds]

Devils in most depiction never lie. The speak truths in deceptive ways, but the words themselves are never false.


Which carries over here to some degree. The IFCC pull lies of omission very well. Most majorly and recently: they took V's soul while V lived. They only implied that would wait until after death...just as they only implied that V's body would be in stasis. Unless they say specifically and completely that they won't use V's body at all, I'd say the original theory is believable.

[Porthos]

Devils in most depiction never lie. The speak truths in deceptive ways, but the words themselves are never false.

Erm the term "The Father of Lies" comes to mind.

Not that we can really get into a discussion about that here, of course. But I consider that a pretty big counter-example. :smallsmile:

'sides when it comes right down to it, IMO there is little functional difference between deception and lying. Other's mileage may vary though.

[Jade_Dragon]

1. they have lied to V before

When?:smallconfused:

[Klear]

Yeah, but Lee is not some flawed mortal trying to live up to the requirements of the Lawful Evil alignment who may or may not earn brownie points for trying. He's a Devil. A being if pure unadulterated Lawful Evil.

Devils in most depiction never lie. The speak truths in deceptive ways, but the words themselves are never false.

I'm too tired to check now, but have the relevant things been said by Lee himself? It might be interesting to go back and see what was said by Lee (which, presumably, is all true) and what by the other fiends.

[mhsmith]

If I remember correctly when V made the deal the wording was his/her soul will be spending some time with each of the IFCC. This is exactly what happened. Possession is not exactly what that said.

From a story point of view I think this is also about showing how something that sounded relatively harmless (being out for a couple of hours max) in exchange for ultimate arcane power was something really, really bad in retrospect.

That is my opinion, that does not mean your idea is wrong of course. We will find out in time.

Is it really bad though? There was no way that OOTS could have held on to the gate long term, so it was either team evil or team tarquin. And tarquin (possibly dishonestly) already said he'd have destroyed the gate anyway. At least so far, the consequences or giving the fiends soul time have been fairly light.

[Porthos]

All that he said was that they can't put a soul into V's body. He never said that they cannot otherwise manipulate V's body for their own purposes...

Pretty much. The exact words (and when it comes to people like the IFCC and Tarquin, paying attention to exact words is somewhat important) were:

:vaarsuvius:: I see your game now. You shall posses my empty body, and with it seize the Gate for yourselves!

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: What? No, that's ridiculous.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul into it would be a gross violation of our contract.

There are at least two outs. One is the one mentioned above. The other is yanking V's soul out when there just happens to be someone else around who might take it over.

:vaarsuvius: (upon seeing his body inhabited by another): This is scandalous! You said that you wouldn't put another soul in my body!
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: And we didn't.
http://i.imgur.com/McWr6Zt.png: We have no control over <Whomever>'s actions, even by implication.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: It's not our fault that someone else seized an opportunity when they saw it.
http://i.imgur.com/McWr6Zt.png: I suggest you take problems out on <Whomever> when you get back. I've heard it can be quite a liberating experience to work out your frustrations that way.

[Tock Zipporah]

I'm sure this must have been discussed when the strip first came out, but now that the Elf is about to return to the land of the living, it seems like an appropriate time to bring it up. There is a lot of discussion right now centered around "when will the IFCC choose to take Vaarsuvius out of the picture again?" and "how will the IFCC being able to incapacitate V whenever they choose affect his/her usefulness/emotional state/hair style?"

All legitimate questions, but they really hinge on the assumption that Director Lee was telling V the truth about only being able to temporarily withdraw his soul, instead of being able to use his body (and presumably his powers) for their own purposes. But this seems like a pretty unreasonable assumption, given that 1. they have lied to V before, 2. they are, you know, evil... 3. we know that V didn't read the contract, 4. it would be a pretty useful lie, and 5. it would be a lot more interesting, plot-wise.

So much of the latest discussion has been about whether or not V will tell Roy and the rest of the team. If he does explain everything, no doubt they will think of losing V at a crucial time as the worst case scenario, when the true worst case scenario might be getting a disintegration to the back at a crucial moment, the use of V's high-level caster status in manipulating the Ritual, the return of Darth V (but this time REALLY evil), or something even worse.

Am I'm missing some evidence that leads us to believe Lee is telling the truth?

They never once lied to V about anything. Never. They just let V make whatever assumptions he wanted, and decides not to correct him on them. That's not lying.

If they said they can't control the body, then that as they say is that. The question is, what else DIDN'T they say?

[Porthos]

If they said they can't control the body, then that as they say is that. The question is, what else DIDN'T they say?

They didn't even go that far. They simply said they couldn't put another soul into it.

...

V really is bad at asking follow up questions. :smallbiggrin:

[DaggerPen]

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: OK. Well, this all seems in order, so I guess I'll - oh! Wait. You seem to have made a mistake right here.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png: What?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: I'm Chaotic.

I mean, really, that seems fitting, doesn't it? Lee takes his time first, sticking strictly to the letter of the contract. Nero takes his time second, sticking to the pattern. Then, when we're sure that that's all the fiends can do, Cedrik shows us the "chaotic" part of "chaotic evil," takes control of V's soul, and violates the Abyss out of that contract.

[TRH]

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: OK. Well, this all seems in order, so I guess I'll - oh! Wait. You seem to have made a mistake right here.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png: What?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: I'm Chaotic.

I mean, really, that seems fitting, doesn't it? Lee takes his time first, sticking strictly to the letter of the contract. Nero takes his time second, sticking to the pattern. Then, when we're sure that that's all the fiends can do, Cedrik shows us the "chaotic" part of "chaotic evil," takes control of V's soul, and violates the Abyss out of that contract.

I'm pretty sure that Cedrik's the one who used his soul time right here, so that's not quite happening. That said, if some random soul winds up possessing V later, who wants to lay odds on it being Haerta?

[DaggerPen]

I'm pretty sure that Cedrik's the one who used his soul time right here, so that's not quite happening. That said, if some random soul winds up possessing V later, who wants to lay odds on it being Haerta?

Wait, really? I thought it was Lee. If it was Cedrik, that's my whole theory out the window.

EDIT: Shoot! It was Cedrik! :smallredface: I mean, I guess Nero could still bend the rules, but that's less satisfying.

I do think that they can still find a way to possess V's body, but the rationale for doing so is no longer the same. Darn.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Mmmm... *noncommittal noises*

If they could do things like that without a contract, it seems kind of strange that they would wait so long to do so. Holding out on some of their tricks to lull V into a false sense of security seems right, but unnecessary if booting her out and seizing her body indefinitely was ever really an option.

I can see them reserving the right to suspend the corporeal body protection service, though.

[Tock Zipporah]

They didn't even go that far. They simply said they couldn't put another soul into it.

...

V really is bad at asking follow up questions. :smallbiggrin:

V is overconfident in her assumptions of his own intellectual superiority.

[mrzomby]

When?:smallconfused:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html and

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

are two times when they lied to V, Yellow text isn't the one who lied for anyone interested.

[JSSheridan]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html and

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

are two times when they lied to V, Yellow text isn't the one who lied for anyone interested.

Also in 884. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html)

Edit: What are you talking about DQ? *cough*

[Domino Quartz]

Also in 884. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303239)

Your link is a link back to this thread.

[Fish]

They didn't even go that far. They simply said they couldn't put another soul into it.
No, they didn't even say that.

They said putting another soul in that body would be a violation of their contract ... but they didn't say they wouldn't violate said contract.

[Forikroder]

I'm sure this must have been discussed when the strip first came out, but now that the Elf is about to return to the land of the living, it seems like an appropriate time to bring it up. There is a lot of discussion right now centered around "when will the IFCC choose to take Vaarsuvius out of the picture again?" and "how will the IFCC being able to incapacitate V whenever they choose affect his/her usefulness/emotional state/hair style?"

All legitimate questions, but they really hinge on the assumption that Director Lee was telling V the truth about only being able to temporarily withdraw his soul, instead of being able to use his body (and presumably his powers) for their own purposes. But this seems like a pretty unreasonable assumption, given that 1. they have lied to V before, 2. they are, you know, evil... 3. we know that V didn't read the contract, 4. it would be a pretty useful lie, and 5. it would be a lot more interesting, plot-wise.

So much of the latest discussion has been about whether or not V will tell Roy and the rest of the team. If he does explain everything, no doubt they will think of losing V at a crucial time as the worst case scenario, when the true worst case scenario might be getting a disintegration to the back at a crucial moment, the use of V's high-level caster status in manipulating the Ritual, the return of Darth V (but this time REALLY evil), or something even worse.

Am I'm missing some evidence that leads us to believe Lee is telling the truth?

so your just assuming hes lieing because you think itd be cool if they took over his body?

so by (clearly) in your title you mean (not clearly at all)?


They said putting another soul in that body would be a violation of their contract ... but they didn't say they wouldn't violate said contract.

because there incapable of violating a contract the contract is whats giving them power violating it removes there power over V

[Klear]

Is it really bad though? There was no way that OOTS could have held on to the gate long term, so it was either team evil or team tarquin. And tarquin (possibly dishonestly) already said he'd have destroyed the gate anyway. At least so far, the consequences or giving the fiends soul time have been fairly light.

Hold on a second. What did they prevent?

- V convincing the order not to destroy the game outright and study it a bit first, because of the world inside.

- Tarquin taking over the gate, which he would then proceed to study before possibly blowing it up.

- Xykon taking over.

Two out of three interested parties would like to study the gate, and that is what was prevented.

[BroomGuys]

I'll just point out a detail that people have missed before. There is no contract for V to have failed to read: "And that's basically it. If you accept the deal that we've outlined verbally, touch the blue orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) (emphasis mine). Unless touching the blue orb magically transferred V's signature to an unseen contract, V never signed any kind of contract, so the only agreement is the one they verbally outlined.

I, for one, think the reading that makes the most sense is to expect that they were telling the truth about this and won't be able to take direct control over V's body while they have V's soul. They allowed V to make the incorrect assumption that they couldn't take his soul before he died, but they never even implied that was the case; they just didn't correct V's faulty assumption. With this, it makes sense to say that V's body is something they don't get in the deal, so I'm inclined to think that it's true.

[The Kind Knido]

I'm sorry, but can someone point me to where it stated the IFCC's alignments and how we know that Lee is LE?

All I remember about these guys is that they each represent an evil alignment, appear occasionally to contribute next to nothing, and love to have some of the character around because they're lonely or something. I'm not really sure how they're even influencing anything.

If they saved V from Girard's Gate, that has to mean they want him to destroy the final gate, but considering the Paladins were a bunch of lying jerks, what's even the point? We've seen that having these rifts isn't really a problem aside from them expanding. It's perfectly simple to close them of again with proper magic.

[Heksefatter]

Pretty much. The exact words (and when it comes to people like the IFCC and Tarquin, paying attention to exact words is somewhat important) were:

:vaarsuvius:: I see your game now. You shall posses my empty body, and with it seize the Gate for yourselves!

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: What? No, that's ridiculous.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul into it would be a gross violation of our contract.

There are at least two outs. One is the one mentioned above. The other is yanking V's soul out when there just happens to be someone else around who might take it over.

:vaarsuvius: (upon seeing his body inhabited by another): This is scandalous! You said that you wouldn't put another soul in my body!
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: And we didn't.
http://i.imgur.com/McWr6Zt.png: We have no control over <Whomever>'s actions, even by implication.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3227/leedsg.png: It's not our fault that someone else seized an opportunity when they saw it.
http://i.imgur.com/McWr6Zt.png: I suggest you take problems out on <Whomever> when you get back. I've heard it can be quite a liberating experience to work out your frustrations that way.

Wow, we have IFCC-icons now.

Also, the above makes perfect sense to me. The IFCC are more manipulative and deception than baldfaced lies.

[Heksefatter]

I'm sorry, but can someone point me to where it stated the IFCC's alignments and how we know that Lee is LE?

All I remember about these guys is that they each represent an evil alignment, appear occasionally to contribute next to nothing, and love to have some of the character around because they're lonely or something. I'm not really sure how they're even influencing anything.

If they saved V from Girard's Gate, that has to mean they want him to destroy the final gate, but considering the Paladins were a bunch of lying jerks, what's even the point? We've seen that having these rifts isn't really a problem aside from them expanding. It's perfectly simple to close them of again with proper magic.

I gather that the Giant wrote it in an introduction to one of the books. Something to the effect that Lee was a somewhat less lawful devil, Cedrik was a somewhat less chaotic demon and that in any case, they weren't really supposed to have distinct personalities. I haven't purchased the book in question myself - shame on me! - but I've seen it mentioned on the forums.

It has been implied in the strip, though. Recall how Sabine told V how Lee made the plans, Cedrik sprung them when his gut told him to and Nero kept the two of them working together.

In short, Lee was the methodical planner, Cedrik was intuitive and Nero balanced them. This implies lawful, chaotic and neutral. And no, of course it doesn't prove it.

Also, we see Lee's inbox being full of Empire of Blood soldiers. The Empire of Blood is lawful evil. Again no proof. Just an implication.

[The Kind Knido]

I gather that the Giant wrote it in an introduction to one of the books. Something to the effect that Lee was a somewhat less lawful devil, Cedrik was a somewhat less chaotic demon and that in any case, they weren't really supposed to have distinct personalities. I haven't purchased the book in question myself - shame on me! - but I've seen it mentioned on the forums.

It has been implied in the strip, though. Recall how Sabine told V how Lee made the plans, Cedrik sprung them when his gut told him to and Nero kept the two of them working together.

In short, Lee was the methodical planner, Cedrik was intuitive and Nero balanced them. This implies lawful, chaotic and neutral. And no, of course it doesn't prove it.

Also, we see Lee's inbox being full of Empire of Blood soldiers. The Empire of Blood is lawful evil. Again no proof. Just an implication.

Interesting. What, may I ask, is the book you refer to that has the introductory material you mention?

[Heksefatter]

Interesting. What, may I ask, is the book you refer to that has the introductory material you mention?

If I recall correctly, it has got to be the one where the IFCC is introduced. That would be Don't Split the Party, which is also the most recently published strip compilation.

I can say for sure that it isn't Start of Darkness or Origin of the PCs as I've got those.

[Synesthesy]

However, LEe is Lawful Evil, CEdrick is Chaotic Evil, and NEro is Neutral Evil. The name themselves said what is their alligment.

[Heksefatter]

Interesting. What, may I ask, is the book you refer to that has the introductory material you mention?

Here is the actual quote, spelled out on Tv Tropes:

For the record, the devil is Lee (yellow), the daemon is Nero (purple), and the demon is orange (Cedrik). Don't put too much stock in their dialogue as an indicator of alignment and thus which fiend is which. The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, and devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, an slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even). I intentionally wrote their dialogue without much regard for which of the three was saying it, therefore. With only a few exceptions, I wrote the words the way they fit into the panels, and then colored them to match whichever fiend was closest to that speech balloon.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=0000000000000000000004ov&page=559

The quote has been referenced on the forums here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15867123&postcount=57

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15365136&postcount=10

[The Kind Knido]

However, LEe is Lawful Evil, CEdrick is Chaotic Evil, and NEro is Neutral Evil. The name themselves said what is their alligment.

Fair enough.

[Dodom]

If the fiends could just lie about what their contracts imply and take more than what the loopholes in the wording itself allow, then what would stop them from acting on people who never had a contract with them in the first place? Why wouldn't they just lie people into contracts in the first place? "If you DON'T want to lend us your soul in exchange for our help, touch the blue orb. - HAHA THE BLUE ORB MEANT YES, SUCKER!!!"

[Kish]

If they saved V from Girard's Gate, that has to mean they want him to destroy the final gate, but considering the Paladins were a bunch of lying jerks, what's even the point? We've seen that having these rifts isn't really a problem aside from them expanding.

You're assuming a great deal there, going from "there are no lethal Snarl tentacles emerging from the open rift over Gobbotopia" to "the rifts are totally harmless." And...

It's perfectly simple to close them of again with proper magic.
Building the gates to begin with took an epic-level divine and epic-level arcane spellcaster. Xykon could do one-half of building new gates, if for some reason he chose to; there's no indication of anyone alive able to do the divine half of rebuilding the gates.

[Forikroder]

You're assuming a great deal there, going from "there are no lethal Snarl tentacles emerging from the open rift over Gobbotopia" to "the rifts are totally harmless." And...

Building the gates to begin with took an epic-level divine and epic-level arcane spellcaster. Xykon could do one-half of building new gates, if for some reason he chose to; there's no indication of anyone alive able to do the divine half of rebuilding the gates.

redcloak with the mantle might be able to pull it off

[King of Nowhere]

the ifcc guys strike me as quite sporty. they wouldn't cheat in such a manner, and up until this point they always played fair - according to a certain definition of fair - and their behaviour has been nothing but correct. I really see no reason to think they're blatantly lieing on something, and i have every reason to believe they are saying the truth. they are probably still keeping something out, but suddenly controlling V's body seems out of the table.

the arguments to the contrary strikes me very much like plot theories, where the "truth" of the conspiracy has already been decided, every evidence to the contrary is assumed as a lie, every lack of evidence is treated as positive evidence, every logical argument is assumed to be a form of mind control to "make you believe what they want you to believe". In short, I'm not buying it.

[warrl]

There is only a verbal contract. And this is a world with scrying and divination, where exactly what was actually said can be determined. So, they cannot possibly have lied about the contract during negotiations - V. agreed to what was actually said and ONLY to what was actually said.

As noted, they are not responsible for what V. assumed was said.

Breaking the contract - if it is even possible for them to do so, that would have repercussions. At the very minimum, the contract would become null and void at the instant it is broken. So if they arrange to have V.'s body possessed, they lose any remaining time to take V.'s soul into custody, and V. is free to return to the mortal realm and reoccupy the body. That's the MINIMUM.

[Porthos]

redcloak with the mantle might be able to pull it off

Minor SoD Spoilers:

:redcloak: (talking to Xykon about building a new Gate to replace the now destroyed Lirian's Gate: Maybe if we were both epic level, but we'd still have to research how to do so, and that could take years of study! Maybe decades!

So, no, the Crimson Mantle is not good enough.

[1chapelcredit]

There is only a verbal contract. And this is a world with scrying and divination, where exactly what was actually said can be determined. So, they cannot possibly have lied about the contract during negotiations - V. agreed to what was actually said and ONLY to what was actually said.

As noted, they are not responsible for what V. assumed was said.

Breaking the contract - if it is even possible for them to do so, that would have repercussions. At the very minimum, the contract would become null and void at the instant it is broken. So if they arrange to have V.'s body possessed, they lose any remaining time to take V.'s soul into custody, and V. is free to return to the mortal realm and reoccupy the body. That's the MINIMUM.


This is an excellent point, and one that I missed on re-reading those strips; there is only a paper 'pre approval' letter, not an actual paper contract. In fact, the IFCC even makes a point of saying they don't need a contract.

Since they did lie to V several times (as has already been pointed out) in their original verbal exchange, it might not be possible to know what precisely constitutes the "verbal agreement" that V agreed to, though I'm sure somebody could put together the bullet-point clauses.

Nonetheless, nowhere in their discussion about the contract did they stipulate that they couldn't possess V's body, or that they couldn't 'allow' (read: arrange) for it to be possessed. Which is why I said they were lying in 897: Lee says that possessing V's soul would be a gross violation of their contract, and assuming we have the full conversation on record (we may not), that simply isn't true; it was actually never addressed.

[BenjCano]

Breaking the contract - if it is even possible for them to do so, that would have repercussions. At the very minimum, the contract would become null and void at the instant it is broken. So if they arrange to have V.'s body possessed, they lose any remaining time to take V.'s soul into custody, and V. is free to return to the mortal realm and reoccupy the body. That's the MINIMUM.

Just as a matter of curiosity, who would enforce that? What would happen if a demon or a devil or a deamon broke a binding contract with a mortal? How could the mortal go about getting redress of grievance? I'm just thinking about Darth Vader's line to Lando: "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it any further."

[BroomGuys]

Just as a matter of curiosity, who would enforce that? What would happen if a demon or a devil or a deamon broke a binding contract with a mortal? How could the mortal go about getting redress of grievance? I'm just thinking about Darth Vader's line to Lando: "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it any further."

It may well be that they aren't even able to do so; perhaps the physical laws of the multiverse prevent fiends from acting on the mortal plane in any way other than making a deal with mortals, perhaps the gods will be all up in their business if they try to do anything they aren't allowed to. Whichever is the case, it seems pretty clear that breaking their deal is not an option for acting on the mortal plane. Otherwise they could just take someone's soul willy-nilly, then put Haerta in their body and cast Familicide on a 1st-level commoner that happens to be related to anybody they want out of their way, whenever they want.

[King of Nowhere]

Since they did lie to V several times (as has already been pointed out) in their original verbal exchange, it might not be possible to know what precisely constitutes the "verbal agreement" that V agreed to, though I'm sure somebody could put together the bullet-point clauses.



Actually, as far as I know, when talking about the big deal, they never directly lied. Lie by implication, yes. by omission, of course. they told V that they weren't intersted in him personally, but that wasn't part of the discussion of the deal. when actually discussing business, they never directly lied to the best of our knowledge.

Plus, there is the fact that if they actually could put temporarily some soul into another body, then they could just make deals with first level commoners and have them be possessed by haerta or one of the others. there are surely plenty of commoners who would have no problem whatsoever to renting their bodies for a while, provided they are adequately compensed and nothing bad is done to them ad maybe their families. true, they would have 4 hp, but with a bunch of protection spells it won't matter too much. iff they could do that kind of thing, they could easily take haerta's soul into V, destroy the whole order in a few rounds (with what haerta's dc on saves ought to be, probably a single banshee's wail will do the trick), then destroy the gate. Storywise, it would give too much power to the ifcc.

Speaking of story-wise, rich complained several times that he often has to write V out of scenes because his spells would ruin the desired outcome. with the ifcc, now he has the perfect tool to do so without having to come up with some contrieved contingency. there is no reason, from this meta-story perspective, to do any more than that. having the bad guys capable of putting an epic caster in the middle of the party at any time would hardly serve a narrative purpose.

[Zmeoaice]

If the fiends could just lie about what their contracts imply and take more than what the loopholes in the wording itself allow, then what would stop them from acting on people who never had a contract with them in the first place? Why wouldn't they just lie people into contracts in the first place? "If you DON'T want to lend us your soul in exchange for our help, touch the blue orb. - HAHA THE BLUE ORB MEANT YES, SUCKER!!!"

Presumably while they are evil, they want as many customers as possible. If people think they aren't getting a square deal, they probably won't make one.

[Bulldog Psion]

It may well be that they aren't even able to do so; perhaps the physical laws of the multiverse prevent fiends from acting on the mortal plane in any way other than making a deal with mortals, perhaps the gods will be all up in their business if they try to do anything they aren't allowed to. Whichever is the case, it seems pretty clear that breaking their deal is not an option for acting on the mortal plane. Otherwise they could just take someone's soul willy-nilly, then put Haerta in their body and cast Familicide on a 1st-level commoner that happens to be related to anybody they want out of their way, whenever they want.

A very good point. I'd vote for "the laws of the universe," myself.

[BenjCano]

It may well be that they aren't even able to do so; perhaps the physical laws of the multiverse prevent fiends from acting on the mortal plane in any way other than making a deal with mortals, perhaps the gods will be all up in their business if they try to do anything they aren't allowed to. Whichever is the case, it seems pretty clear that breaking their deal is not an option for acting on the mortal plane. Otherwise they could just take someone's soul willy-nilly, then put Haerta in their body and cast Familicide on a 1st-level commoner that happens to be related to anybody they want out of their way, whenever they want.

I find it amusing that even chaotic evil beings like demons would be forced to be essentially lawful with regards to their dealings with mortals.

[consectari]

I don't suspect the IFCC will set up a situation where they take V's soul, giving someone else the chance to possess his/her body (in a completely innocent, what a terrible coincidence sort of way). It would be faithful the letter of what they've said, I just don't think it's what the Giant has planned.


Hypothetically speaking though, if they did, it would create a very interesting situation because the body would still be under IFCC protection and therefore very difficult to stop.

Edit:
Another thought hit me. Does the IFCC "protection" extend to preventing other souls from occupying the body? Could say, Roy's dad jump in and take it for a spin? The IFCC have no contractual control of the body or Eugene's soul. Could they do anything more than keep the body from coming to harm?

[Fish]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say the IFCC may not claim all of their time by the end of the story, or that not all of their debt will be claimed to interrupt V. It's possible that the 3-odd minute debt will simply go unclaimed.

Why? Just a hunch.

There is more dramatic tension in knowing the IFCC still can interfere, than in knowing that they can't. So I estimate that Rich will save one of those debts for the very, very end of the dramatic conflict ... and not use it.

Maybe something like this:

[After the world is saved, Vaarsuvius's soul is taken down to see the fiends.]

IFCC: Welcome back, Vaarsuvius. Congratulations. We didn't think you had it in you.
:vaarsuvius: Huh?
IFCC: Come on, you didn't really think we were trying to destroy the universe. That would be silly. We were trying to get you to save it for us.
:vaarsuvius: Why didn't you simply say so?
IFCC: You wouldn't have listened.