It all starts with...chaos?

[Grinner]

I've noticed that many creation myths always start with an expanse of chaos, darkness, or something of that nature. But why? I understand that imagining the genesis of a single city is difficult enough, nevermind reality itself, but why is it always chaos or darkness?

[holywhippet]

Because order or light implies there is something already there. It there is something already there it isn't the beginning.

[AuraTwilight]

Because Chaos and Darkness are the absence of something.

[Yora]

Modification Myth just isn't the same.

[Mastikator]

It's because people don't understand entropy.

[Yora]

Well, I think in India it has been for a very long time the default assumption that entropy eventually breaks down everything to darkness and chaos. At which point there will be a new creation from that darkness and chaos.

[NichG]

Its interesting because our universe's origin can be thought of as going in the reverse route. Start with a perfect symmetry and then a number of symmetry breakings cause the one unified force to split into a number of distinct forces with corresponding distinct conserved quantities (giving rise to a zoo of different particle types) as the universe's energy scale decreases. Expand from a geometric point into something where spatial relationships have meaning.

[Talvereaux]

It's because people don't understand entropy.

"Chaos" has a very different (and far newer) meaning in thermodynamics than it does in most conversational uses of the word.

[Grinner]

It's because people don't understand entropy.

Would you elaborate?

It seems that most explanations on the subject are usually unhelpfully dense and riddled with semantic ambiguities.


Well, I think in India it has been for a very long time the default assumption that entropy eventually breaks down everything to darkness and chaos. At which point there will be a new creation from that darkness and chaos.

That makes sense, given how prevalent the concept of cycles seems to be in Indian mythologies.


Its interesting because our universe's origin can be thought of as going in the reverse route. Start with a perfect symmetry and then a number of symmetry breakings cause the one unified force to split into a number of distinct forces with corresponding distinct conserved quantities (giving rise to a zoo of different particle types) as the universe's energy scale decreases. Expand from a geometric point into something where spatial relationships have meaning.

But for every Big Bang, is there a Big Crunch?

[JusticeZero]

Not necessarily. There's also the possibility that the universe will increase its rate of expansion until one day, subatomic particles with find their constituent parts to be beyond the event horizon of the edge of the observable universe from each other.

[Serpentine]

I've noticed that many creation myths always start with an expanse of chaos, darkness, or something of that nature. But why? I understand that imagining the genesis of a single city is difficult enough, nevermind reality itself, but why is it always chaos or darkness?Are you talking about real world creation myths, or game ones? For game ones, that's because it's the way it tends to be in real world ones. For the real world ones... well, I'm not sure how much we can talk about it without worrying about the religion rule. Plus it's a big ol' psychoanthrohistorical mess right there. As a very casual, shallow guess I would imagine it has to do with psychological shorthand/metaphor, relating to things like shapeless clay -> shape -> utility, blank canvas -> work of art, etc.
It makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform, and then decayed and mutated (or, perhaps, evolved), became imperfect, to become the current universe... I reckon that'd have some interesting implications.

[The Rose Dragon]

It makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform, and then decayed and mutated (or, perhaps, evolved), became imperfect, to become the current universe... I reckon that'd have some interesting implications.

So, like the origin of Terminus in Freedom City, then.

[Yora]

In the Ancient Lands setting, I based the nature of reality on a rudimentary understanding of the quantum field.
The Void is an infinite and timeless dimension of pure energy that spontaneously creates material planes that curve back on themselves and have a lifetime of several billions of years. After which they then eventually collapse back into pure energy. Very small size and short-lived (some hundred or thousand years) demiplanes also exist. There are no heavens o hells and the like, but some form of consciousneses in the energy field of the Void, called Demons.

The implications for the daily life of the humanoid species that evolve on planets inside the material universes are quite interesting. The entire annihilation of everything that exist is a default assumption about the distant future, so people approach life with an understanding that everything is ending and every attempt at creating something eternal is futile. However, it is not apocalyptic, since there is no expectation of a sudden change and the arrivial of a new world different from the current one. Time and space will just stop existing.
As a result, people focus a lot more on the present and are looking for immediate rewards and success. There is no real sense of hoping for saviors or sitting this life out to gain a reward in the afterlife. Any meaning and value has to be found in the present.
It also created an interesting motivation for demon worshippers. As the demons are beings of the energy field of the void, they are truly eternal and immortal, while all mortal creatures will end, regardless of what tricks they might devise to prolong their life and create a lasting legacy in the world. Only the prospect of becomming a demon or at least part of ones soul becomming a part of a demon provides any chance of immortality and an afterlife.
There's also aberrations, who were created from demons taking physical form during the creation of the material universe. Living deep inside the planets, isolated from the life evolving on the surface, they evolved into optimal form for their native environment very early and have since stoped evolving anymore. Some people worship the aberrations because they have apparently achieved a perfect form of body that can remain from the very beginning of the universe to the very end. Unlike the surface creatures who go extinct and are replaced by other creatures all the time. Worshipping aberrations might get cultists the gift of being granted a perfect form.

[Grinner]

Are you talking about real world creation myths, or game ones? For game ones, that's because it's the way it tends to be in real world ones. For the real world ones... well, I'm not sure how much we can talk about it without worrying about the religion rule. Plus it's a big ol' psychoanthrohistorical mess right there. As a very casual, shallow guess I would imagine it has to do with psychological shorthand/metaphor, relating to things like shapeless clay -> shape -> utility, blank canvas -> work of art, etc.

Both, actually. I guess the lesson to be taken here is that art does in fact imitate life (or is it other art?).


It makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform, and then decayed and mutated (or, perhaps, evolved), became imperfect, to become the current universe... I reckon that'd have some interesting implications.

Yeah, a good writer could definitely do something with that. However, would it be perfectly uniform or perfectly harmonious? Either way, I suppose it could be likened to cars' engines, which are usually perfectly functional in the beginning but eventually break down due to simple wear and tear.

No, it's not a perfect analogy. In a perfect world, things like friction would not be an issue, leaving the question "What introduced these slight imperfections, leading to a increasingly greater imperfections?".*

*Does any of this make sense to you all?

[Yora]

The question why the universe is not perfectly symetrical is one of the biggest current issues in astrophysics. If the Big Bang happened as in the model, there shouldn't be any starts, planets, or galaxies.

[Serpentine]

Yeah, a good writer could definitely do something with that. However, would it be perfectly uniform or perfectly harmonious?Well, the thing about "primordial chaos" is that they're perfect chaos - there is nothing, it is the very essence of changeability and mess and muckiness. A "primordial order" would be the opposite and counterpart to that: perfect sameness, clean, unchanging - until it starts to evolve/decay into the world, of course.
Hmm... Primordial Chaoses tend to be symbolised by oceans and/or dragons/serpents. What would be the embodiment of a Primordial Order?

[Yora]

Maybe a large crystal structure?

The funny thing about chaos is, that at large scale chaos creates a uniformity and order that surpases any attempt to create order artifically.

[Serpentine]

"In the beginning there was everything. Everything was a great crystal of perfect form and consistency. There was light in the crystal, and the light ricocheted back and forth through the crystal until it reached such speed and power that the crystal cracked. From the cracked crystal a shard fell, and that shard formed the earth. Dust sprayed forth and created the heavens..." That sort of thing?:smalltongue:

[LordChaos13]

"In the beginning there was everything. Everything was a great crystal of perfect form and consistency. There was light in the crystal, and the light ricocheted back and forth through the crystal until it reached such speed and power that the crystal cracked. From the cracked crystal a shard fell, and that shard formed the earth. Dust sprayed forth and created the heavens..." That sort of thing?:smalltongue:

To the Worldbuilding forum!! :smallbiggrin:

[jedipotter]

The world now is all about Order. The sun comes up at sets in a cycle. The seasons are set. Things happen in order.

So it is easy to say that ''in the long ago before time'' things were pure chaos: Up was Down, Right was Left, Dogs and Cats were living together.....

[GolemsVoice]

It makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform, and then decayed and mutated (or, perhaps, evolved), became imperfect, to become the current universe... I reckon that'd have some interesting implications.

It's actually an ongoing theme in literature, religion and philosophy. The perfect, often "natural" state that got corrupted, often by human nature being what it is, and decayed into the state we see now. This is often combined with the idea that it can either be ideal again, or that humanity can at least achieve some sort of better state that is almost as it was before.


Also, keep in mind that in most creation myths in roleplaying games, things like entropy or any sort of scientifical theory doesn't matter. Often the beginning is quite literally magic.

[Serpentine]

It's actually an ongoing theme in literature, religion and philosophy. The perfect, often "natural" state that got corrupted, often by human nature being what it is, and decayed into the state we see now. This is often combined with the idea that it can either be ideal again, or that humanity can at least achieve some sort of better state that is almost as it was before.If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I'd say that's different to the chaos of before existence. The "golden era" thing is (almost?) always shortly after Creation, when everything is wonderful and perfect and then mortals go and screw it up. This is the Primordial Chaos of before Creation, before there are any created beings to screw anything up.

[Scow2]

I've always imagined it's because Chaos is antithetical to Civilization, which is the force of Order. From people living like wild animals, changing their behavior moment to moment, to people working together to build massive cities and monuments, marching in lockstep together to expand its influence, and living by strict routines.

[NichG]

The question why the universe is not perfectly symetrical is one of the biggest current issues in astrophysics. If the Big Bang happened as in the model, there shouldn't be any starts, planets, or galaxies.

I'm kind of surprised that this is a big question. I mean, spontaneous symmetry breaking is a well-known phenomenon elsewhere in physics. Even outside of that, if you look at for example the ground-state packing of objects with central-force interactions, the ground state will break the symmetry and you'll get a lattice of some sort instead.

All it takes is any source of fluctuations that don't obey the symmetry intrinsically and you fall off the (unstable) symmetric state into a broken symmetry state. Is there any particular reason why we'd expect that e.g. quantum mechanical vacuum fluctuations should be spherically symmetrical?

[Talvereaux]

Would you elaborate?

It seems that most explanations on the subject are usually unhelpfully dense and riddled with semantic ambiguities.

Entropy is best described in layman's terms as "used" energy. Its ability to do work has been depleted, and it will never be usable again. Entropy is both inevitable and irreversible.

It's sort of an esoteric subject because entropy doesn't affect us at all in day to day living. Earth is not an independent system, as it constantly receives new energy from the sun, but it does have severe ramifications for the fate of the universe as a greater entity, implying that one day in the far future, the universe may run out of usable energy and no longer be able to sustain any sort of chemical reaction.

This sort of ties in to "disorder" or "chaos" as it's used in thermodynamics, where it refers to disorder or unpredictability on a microscopic level, which leads to energy being unusable (read as: entropy).

But like I said in my earlier post, it's entirely off topic because when people talk about "chaos" in science, they're referring to a very different concept than they are in conversational English or especially in mythology.

[Beelzebub1111]

Monotone female voiceover:
"In the beginning...there was One. One was perfect, immovable and beautiful. but at some point, time began. One aged and fell and fractured and became many. The rot of time turned perfection into the world we live in today"

[Saidoro]

On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform.
What you're describing is probably closer to perfect chaos than perfect order. Perfect order would probably be something closer to generic D&D land's assumed early history. You start out with the four infinite, planes each containing one of the four possible states of existence and each separated from each of the others by the greatest possible distance(the astral plane, that is). Then, some entity comes along and takes some of each of those states and mixes them together, using them to create life and land and faith and all manner of more interesting things by doing so. As a side effect the elemental planes are contaminated with one another and form all of the unique features that make them something other than flat masses of undifferentiated matter.

[Mastikator]

Would you elaborate?
[snip]

I should've been more specific. Most creation stories either imitate mythological/religious explanations or because they're trying to do "realism" but don't understand what it means that entropy always increases.
I omitted the first because I figured someone would ninja me with it.

[Serpentine]

What you're describing is probably closer to perfect chaos than perfect order. Perfect order would probably be something closer to generic D&D land's assumed early history. You start out with the four infinite, planes each containing one of the four possible states of existence and each separated from each of the others by the greatest possible distance(the astral plane, that is). Then, some entity comes along and takes some of each of those states and mixes them together, using them to create life and land and faith and all manner of more interesting things by doing so. As a side effect the elemental planes are contaminated with one another and form all of the unique features that make them something other than flat masses of undifferentiated matter.That is one possible version, but personally I prefer the "in the beginning there was an infinite diamond" variety.
edit: Hmmm... That could even possibly give a reason for diamonds being the material component of resurrection spells. You have to use a shard of of the stuff from which all creation formed, the very embodiment of true perfection, to restore a creature to its personal physical perfection. It would/could make death an aspect of chaos, of the decay and change that broke down the Primordial Crystal - but which in turn allowed the evolution of life.

[Honest Tiefling]

I have no idea, but I'd wager a guess it has to do with the fact that ancient people really didn't understand the world around them, and attributed unpredictable, often disastrous, phenomenon to chaos. And if chaos is nature, then the opposite would be civilization. If I am not mistaken, Greek, Egyptian, Norse and possibly Zoroastrian mythology all had the Civilization/Chaos dichotomy. And since chaos usually got associated with the creative/fertility aspect, that one is first while civilization has to be created from nature (like a city being built.)

I could be talking out of my *** however.

[Scow2]

That is one possible version, but personally I prefer the "in the beginning there was an infinite diamond" variety.The problem with "perfect diamond" is that a Diamond is just a singular entity. The one he suggested is closer to Perfect Law than just a big stupid rock - it's "In the beginning, everything had a distinct place, and everything was in its place." - like a big box of LegoTM bricks all neatly sorted and put away. Then "Chaos" happens when the kids open the box, and start building with the pieces - 2x4's stuck on baseplates, and connected to cylinders, 1x1, 1/3 "flat" bricks, 2x1's, and cones! Heads and Feet attached to torsos! Everything is mixed up, and... hey, that castle actually looks pretty cool, with the spaceship flying over it - essentially, it starts everything from order, and creation is caused by that order getting mixed up and defined by the changes, while 'traditional' mythology starts with everything being random chaos, and then an outside force (Namely deities) bringing order to the assorted scattered parts.

It also neatly sidesteps the "Everything was better/perfect" götterdämmerung going on.

[Serpentine]

What could be more perfect and ordered than a single infinite of infinite uniformity?

Like I said, you're not wrong, they're just different interpretations. But for me, the counterpart to an infinitely changing primordial ocean of chaos is most accurately (so far) embodied by an infinitely invariable primordial crystal of order. We're talking pre-creation here: "everything exists and has its place" feels more slightly post-creation to me.

[Shalist]

BBC to the rescue: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22261742)


The idea of entropy is fundamentally an intuitive one - that the Universe tends in general to a more disordered state.

The classic example is a dropped cup: it will smash into pieces, but those pieces will never spontaneously recombine back into a cup. Analogously, a hot cup of coffee will always cool down if left - it will never draw warmth from a room to heat back up.

But the idea of "causal entropy" goes further, suggesting that a given physical system not only maximises the entropy within its current conditions, but that it reaches a state that will allow it more entropy - in a real sense, more options - in the future...

...Further simulations showed how the same idea could drive the development of tool use, social network formation and cooperation, and even the maximisation of profit in a simple financial market.

"While there were hints from a variety of other fields such as cosmology, it was so enormously surprising to see that one could take these principles, apply them to simple systems, and effectively for free have such behaviours pop out," Dr Wissner-Gross said...

edit:


edit: Hmmm... That could even possibly give a reason for diamonds being the material component of resurrection spells. You have to use a shard of of the stuff from which all creation formed, the very embodiment of true perfection, to restore a creature to its personal physical perfection. It would/could make death an aspect of chaos, of the decay and change that broke down the Primordial Crystal - but which in turn allowed the evolution of life.
Or the opposite of that. Life is chaos, change, renewal, and of course, decay/entropy. When you die, you leave all that behind, your soul ascending to a more perfect state of being, drawn forward to the next step of its journey to rejoin the Primordial Crystal. Forcing a soul back into its mortal shell requires taking a symbol of perfect, timeless order -- the diamond -- and smashing it into powder, much like how life itself once splintered free of the primordial order at the dawn of creation.

[Arcas Corricol]

It's dramatic, it's a cliche, it works

It's classic, even real world religions have creation myths based on this this should be a sign that it works, this should be an indication and an influence in the first place

[Lord Raziere]

Heh.

My creation myth for my setting, isn't about chaos or order. Well, at least in my interpretation, it is about… well see for yourself:


The world wasn't always like this.
Long ago, before the current era, before all that we know and all that we fight against, the world was a very different place from Omnigalaxia. Most would claim that the world use to be better, that we have fallen from some shining era of utopia where magic and power was greater, where a golden age extended across worlds and made dreams into reality. That some cataclysm wiped it all out and caused the current mess that we call a world today.

Most are completely wrong.

The world…used to be a dark and lonely place. At the dawn of time, there was no shining cities, no utopia, no gods or whatever other cosmic entities you care to name, there was no great age of creation and rulership by the cosmic entities and there was no cataclysm that wiped it out.
The world, was in fact quite simple, and quite bleak. It was small, a lonely understated thing drifting in the void. There were few inhabitants- maybe ten at most- of this small place, this grey and black place devoid of any other colors. The beings that lived there…felt that their lives were always missing something but could not place what. They searched throughout this grey, deserted world and called themselves only The Wanderers, for the Wandered everywhere searching for something, anything that was what they were missing.
Their existence felt empty. Forever they would search and they wouldn't even find each other. The world was also empty, it had food but it was tasteless, they had vision but nothing worth looking at, and their desolation seemed eternal. They didn't even know what it was they were looking for, or why. However they couldn't find it, despite their many eternities of searching.

One day, one of these Wanderers finally snapped and and cried to the heavens
"I wish!"
and in that moment that Wanderer realized that what he desired was desire itself. And thus the world exploded into a million colors as it expanded beyond the speed of light, and thus did he suddenly he hear not only sound but tone, not only ate but tasted, not only saw but observed, not only touched but felt, not only thought but imagined, not only searched but desired, wish, loved, hated, wondered, despaired, raged.

Not only did the Wanderers merely exist- they started to live.
And so the Wanderers their desires and emotions so many, did they explode into millions of beings who scattered themselves across all the cosmos to fulfill them, one for every desire in all of existence. This was no cataclysm, this was the dawning of all things, this was not creation, this was revelation, realization of purpose and imagination. It was the discovery of dreams.

This was Alpha Genesis.


for some reason, I like this one the best. :smallsmile:

[Leliel]

Not necessarily. There's also the possibility that the universe will increase its rate of expansion until one day, subatomic particles with find their constituent parts to be beyond the event horizon of the edge of the observable universe from each other.

And then to confuse the issue, the result would be a pure quantum state of random chaos...which has a possible chance of suddenly erupting into a new universe because quantum physics are like that, ad infintium.

EDIT: Or something called a Poincare recurrence happens. I don't feel like reading Wikipedia about it right now.

[The Oni]

I for one love the idea of Perfect Diamond Universe - since diamonds represent life, crystalline structures represent order, and such a universe would explain how diamond dust is somehow a key component in all the world's most powerful spells.

[Grinner]

It's classic, even real world religions have creation myths based on this this should be a sign that it works, this should be an indication and an influence in the first place

That's actually what triggered the question. It's just weird that so many use the same seed.

I've been thinking about it more, though. It seems that they're usually in some way related to the Ancient Greeks and their beliefs.


Heh.

My creation myth for my setting, isn't about chaos or order. Well, at least in my interpretation, it is about… well see for yourself:

*snippy*

for some reason, I like this one the best. :smallsmile:

That...is amazing. :smalleek:

How much money do you need to make this a thing?

[Segev]

In L5R, the creation myth surrounds Nothing.

This is an entity.

Before all else, there was Nothing.

Nothing was lonely, and desired companionship, so it created the universe.

But wherever there is something, there is not Nothing, and so Nothing became afraid.

In its regret at its act of creation, it began to seek to destroy it all.


Thus was the creation of all that there is - including the Lying Darkness which was once Nothing - is rooted in the three great sins: Desire, Fear, and Regret. Samurai must endeavor to avoid all three lest they suffer a downfall similar to the end of Nothing.

[veti]

On the other hand, though, in the gaming context, it'd be quite interesting to see the opposite case: a universe that (according to myth) started out "perfect", in perfect order, all exactly the same and uniform, and then decayed and mutated (or, perhaps, evolved), became imperfect, to become the current universe... I reckon that'd have some interesting implications.

That has been done, by possibly the most famous fantasy worldbuilder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB) ever.

It does indeed have some interesting implications. Unfortunately, the myriad later writers who have borrowed from this work mostly didn't recognise those as implications of this origin, and they transcribed some of those consequences wholesale into their own works, while completely missing the bit that they're consequences of.

[Lord Raziere]

That...is amazing. :smalleek:

How much money do you need to make this a thing?

Thanks, but I have no idea. I'm still working on this setting, and since its supposed to be infinite? it kinda can't ever be finished. its kind of ambitious but…all the same, Omnigalaxia is probably my best work so far.

which reminds me, I should really show my stuff to more people. and get over the fear of criticism while I'm at it.

still, thanks. its sort of supposed supposed to capture something of what its all about, I think.

[Segev]

Many creation myths, historically, don't start with "nothing" or "chaos" or the like; they are just origins for the locality in which man happens to dwell. The Norse, for instance, believed that a great ox licked an enormous frozen salt-block, and the ice and salt flakes fell from the rasp of its tongue to form the islands and fjords of Midgard.


The same setting my orcs and elves described elsewhere are from, the races don't even remember the actual origin myth(s), though their gods do. The races are individually bloodline-descended from their pantheons, but the world itself came about from something else:

A god and goddess were wed, and happy together. But then something happened, and the god was destroyed in body and broken in mind. With her vast power, the goddess lovingly gathered the fragments of her husband's soul, but could not remake him; to do so directly would be to diminish him as only an echo of her own memories of who he was.

She lay down and let her body become the land of a new world, and her loving heart warmed the fragments of his being. The largest became powerful entities, child-like or born as adults as is their nature, these first few would eventually, along with their first children with each other, become the progenitor gods of their descendents' pantheons. The smallest of fragments she took unto herself and nurtured with her own body, using them to provide life individual from her own to flakes she shed. These became the spirits that make up magic of the world, and make up the animist nature of its objects, plants, etc.

The mortal races, born of the unions of the gods, are flakes and fragments of the shattered god, and are each cherished by the wife-who-mourns. As they grow, so, too, does that breath of life within them. Their souls grow stronger.

And that is how the world came to be: it is the body of the wife-who-mourns, whose own soul wanders it and nurtures things in the background and is mother and wife to many of the most ancient of its gods.

[Serpentine]

That's actually what triggered the question. It's just weird that so many use the same seed.

I've been thinking about it more, though. It seems that they're usually in some way related to the Ancient Greeks and their beliefs.Do you mean in literature or in myth? Cuz the primordial chaos concept is far, far older than the Greeks.