Jade Pheonix Mage help

[ZhanStrider]

So my DM is making a brand new campaign. The odds of death are high! The only books allowed are core and ToB. I am playing a swordsage/jade pheonix Mage who, as far as spell casting goes, basically should function as an anti-Mage warrior. Lots of abjuration. Should I go sorcerer or wizard? Is specializing worth it? And what core/ToB feats should I take to max out a JPM?

[Firechanter]

Oh, seeing a reply in your thread probably got your hopes up? Sorry, I don't know anything off hand. Just tagging this thread because I hope to learn how to properly use a JPM.

At first glance, you lose 3 caster levels (including the Swordsage entry) for a handful of rather gimmicky abilities. It's classed as an Up One PrC but I'm not sure why. Burning spell slots for some minor bonuses on a single attack seems awfully inefficient to me.

Not to rain on your parade,though; maybe someone can enlighten me why JPMs are awesome. =)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Initiator levels are really good-- especially if you take your caster levels first, so you can start with higher-level maneuvers. You can also get back a few of the lost caster levels via stances, if you don't want to spend a feat on Practiced Caster.

Swordsage->JPM seems like the least optimal entry, despite fitting the fluff best. I'd say either Crusader/Sorcerer/JPM or Warblade/Wizard/JPM, due to ability score synergies. As for which... I'd honestly take Crusader/Sorcerer. More spell slots, more defense, more fun.

The really shiny things in JPM are the metamagic strikes-- perform a strike one turn, get a free empower-- or a free Quicken!-- on your next spell. Any number of times per day. Quickening Strike is probably the only way to really do the classic "sword and spell" character, who uses melee and magic to deal death.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'd recommend Crusader over Swordsage for the better BAB. Go something like Crusader 1/Wizard 6/JPM 10. After that, since you're in core, add more wizard or jump into eldritch knight.

[Firechanter]

Swordsage->JPM seems like the least optimal entry, despite fitting the fluff best. I'd say either Crusader/Sorcerer/JPM or Warblade/Wizard/JPM, due to ability score synergies.

Yeah, that makes sense.
Crusader has the drawback that you gain additional maneuvers readied, but not more maneuvers granted. I know this problem from RKV. You end up with 8 maneuvers Readied but still only 2 or 3 Granted, which can really throw a wrench in your combat tactics.

OTOH Crusader has the benefit of proficiency with _all_ Martial Weapons, not just Melee as the other adepts. Just in case if you want to go Eldritch Knight later on. Though that would mean a 4th caster level lost.

So I guess I'd prefer Wizard/Warblade, but Warblade is my favourite adept class anyway so I am a bit biased. ;)

[Darrin]

Yeah, that makes sense.
Crusader has the drawback that you gain additional maneuvers readied, but not more maneuvers granted. I know this problem from RKV. You end up with 8 maneuvers Readied but still only 2 or 3 Granted, which can really throw a wrench in your combat tactics.


Huh? I thought if a PrC gives you another readied maneuver, it also gives you another granted maneuver?

[Firechanter]

If that's the case, I must have missed the rule. Could you point it out to me?

[Xerlith]

I'll put my three pennies here, since I just put together a build for my girlfriend, featuring the said class. Note that this is my personal opinion that I do not want in any way impose on anyone.

First, you need to look at the initiator part of your build. You have two options:
- Burn three of your feats on 2x martial study + Martial Stance (Not good)
OR
- Dip a level in an initiator class (Better).

What you want to do, is milk the most of your caster and initiator level while still having a respectable BAB (but that's not really necessary, since you'll attack once a round most of the time or boost your Attack Bonus with Arcane Wrath... Or both).

Let us see what the dips have to offer:

Warblade. d12HD, +1 BAB, +1 to your Reflex saves (+int, capped by the Warblade level), up to medium armor proficiency, melee martial weapons proficiency, the access to all the nonmagical disciplines (Diamond mind! Iron Heart!), a recovery mechanism that needs you to use up your swift+full attack action, a small skill list. Okay. Next is...

Swordsage. d8HD, +0 BAB, +1 to Initiative, the supernatural school access, most maneuvers known and readied, no way of recovering your maneuvers except a feat tax. Light armor prof, melee martial weapons prof. A skillmonkey though.

Crusader. D10HD, +1 BAB, All martial weapons and armors proficiency, spontaneous maneuver recovery, a damage delaying ability and a +1 to hit if being hit, a mediocre skill list.

Now then, to see what each of them is worth:

Warblade - you gain a +1 BAB which is most needed, a good HP bonus, a +1 to your reflex save and a great deal of maneuvers to choose from. It all seems nice, until you realize that you need to spend a standard action to recover them. For an attack - or to do nothing. You are also a caster .You need your actions. You have better things to do with your actions. Also, a swift action tax makes you unable to benefit from your Arcane Wrath on that attack. Or cast a quickened spell. Or (etc)...

Crusader - A +1BAB, good hp bonus as well, less maneuvers to choose from, but you get Devoted Spirit! One of the two disciplines that JPM progresses, and since you do not have any need for Desert Wind (Since your spells do the things it does - and do them better), it's a good choice.
Also, your maneuver recovery is random, of course, but also does not impose any action tax. And a random thing from a list of awesome is still awesome. (not my quote :smalltongue:) And if you really don't have any good maneuver available... Remember? You are a caster too. Cast something.

Swordsage - you get no bab, a feat tax (Adaptive Style) to be able to recover your maneuvers at all... A +1 to Initiative is nice, but not something you can't live without. Overall, I think it's the worst option, since all it really gives you is a rogue-like skill access. And Desert Wind. Which JPM progresses. But really, cast a fireball and call it a day.

CASTER PART

Core only. Great.

Meaning Bard, Wizard or Sorcerer.

You will lose at least two or three caster levels.

Go wizard if you want more tactical options, more skills, versatility, etc.

Go sorcerer if you want to have moar damages from your Arcane Wrath. That's it.

Go bard, if you want to be the party-face and support... And don't care really about your spellcasting, but want to get up-close and personal.

The point?

Get over the "synergies" the Initiator and Caster classes offer. They are Ackbar.

Wizard's strictly better than Sorcerer. More so because you need all the spell levels you can get. The slower Sorcerer progression is what kills him here.
Bard is good only for specific builds.

You do not need high DCs on your maneuvers. You need them on your spells.
Maneuvers are for when you want to get close and personal and mess stuff up. Not crowd-control people.

Overall, my personal best are:

Balanced fighting-casting

Human Paragon1/Wizard1/Human Paragon +2/Wizard+1/Crusader1 (or Warblade, a bit worse, but not that bad of an option)
- loses 2 caster levels, but gets +4 BAB, 4th caster level and 2nd level maneuvers.)

OR

Warblade1/Wizard3/Crusader1/Wizard +1
If you're starting at lvl1, this gives you the amazing survivability of a Warblade, wide 1st level maneuver choice, then you hop on to your casting cart and snatch 2nd level Crusader maneuvers (Which are nicer than the Warblade ones. Or 1st level Crusader's maneuvers)

For a bard?

Crusader1/bard4/crusader+1 gives you great support capabilities, with your White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers, bard music and spells. 4th initiator level, 4th caster level. Charisma synergy (Yeah, I know. :smalltongue:). Sadly, the Aura Of Perfect Order stance needs a Lawful alignment. Ah, well. You'll be sitting in the Mystic Phoenix anyway.

All of the above lose two caster levels.

Heavy-casting?

Wizard 5/Crusader1.
That's it. 3rd Initiator Level, level 3 spells (Haste!).

What's wrong with it? You play your first 5 levels like a squishy caster, plinking your crossbow from behind, then go up close and personal when casters begin to become overpowered. And then you lose two caster levels in a row. Ouch!

Bard 5 fares better in the earlies, but a Bard is better off snatching the build above.

Heavy fighting? Hah.

Warblade3/Wizard2/Warblade+1/AbjChamp1. You go in a level later, but have 6 BAB, good HP, int to reflex and autoextended abjurations which completely offset your low Caster Level. You also gain the ability to snatch +19 BAB and 19th caster level (at the price of Emerald Immolation though), but only 7th level spells.
Only if Complete series are considered core by your DM, though. :smalltongue:

If not, go with the Bard above(er). Use your spellcasting as last resort.

EDIT: Hey, would be this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) allowed?

My standard question: Why core only?

[nolongerchaos]

The bit about PrCs and granted maneuvers is on pg 96 under the heading Marital Adepts in the bolded section labled Maneuvers Readied.

[Firechanter]

The bit about PrCs and granted maneuvers is on pg 96 under the heading Marital Adepts in the bolded section labled Maneuvers Readied.

Ooer. Indeed. Thanks, that's great!

(goes to change a build)

[Grod_The_Giant]

a recovery mechanism that needs you to use up your swift+full attack action, a small skill list.
Minor nitpick: it's only a standard action.


You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon).

[Xerlith]

True, my bad. Still, this makes you effectively miss a round. From the optimisation point of view, that's not good.

Also, I hope I didn't mess up any build up there. I'm pretty sure I didn't forget about any good combination, maybe except involving a Spellsword level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True, my bad. Still, this makes you effectively miss a round. From the optimisation point of view, that's not good.
No, it makes you effectively a normal melee combatant-- plus stance-- for a round. You can still make full attacks.

[ZhanStrider]

I'd recommend Crusader over Swordsage for the better BAB. Go something like Crusader 1/Wizard 6/JPM 10. After that, since you're in core, add more wizard or jump into eldritch knight.

Sadly, I'm already a Swordsage. I also am trying to get some ShadowHand manuevers before I go JPM so that's where I plan to stay. I think wizard looks better honestly. Are there any feats that might help out that are ToB or Core?

[Xerlith]

is your second highest stat Dexterity?
Grab Shadow Blade, fight with a Shadow Hand weapon, while in SH stance you'll get dex to damage. Then, when you get Mystic Phoenix stance, override your stance with it. You'll be always considered in the SH stance, gaining you dexterity to attack AND damage while reaping the benefits of much better Mystic Phoenix.
EDIT: Wait. If you're already in the game... How are you going to decide your highest mental stat to cast off? :smallconfused:

EDIT2:

No, it makes you effectively a normal melee combatant-- plus stance-- for a round. You can still make full attacks.
Yes, but you lose out on mobility if you full-attack. I'm not saying it makes you do nothing. I'm saying it gimps your utility and damage output. Especially the fact you cannot cast any spell.

[ZhanStrider]

is your second highest stat Dexterity?
Grab Shadow Blade, fight with a Shadow Hand weapon, while in SH stance you'll get dex to damage. Then, when you get Mystic Phoenix stance, override your stance with it. You'll be always considered in the SH stance, gaining you dexterity to attack AND damage while reaping the benefits of much better Mystic Phoenix.
EDIT: Wait. If you're already in the game... How are you going to decide your highest mental stat to cast off? :smallconfused:

Well mystic pheonix makes you "forgoe" the original stance ability. My mental stats are the same, so it's unimportant. But dex is actually my HIGHEST stat.

[Xerlith]

Believe me, it works. The benefits != whole stance.

[Talionis]

Well mystic pheonix makes you "forgoe" the original stance ability. My mental stats are the same, so it's unimportant. But dex is actually my HIGHEST stat.

Well if it became important, I wonder if Mystic Phoenix stance would count as a Shadow Hand Stance for the purposes of Shade Blade feat? To get Dex to damage?

[Xerlith]

This is exactly what I said. It overrides the benefits (only), so RAW you are still considered being in the Shadow Hand stance. So you still apply your Dex to damage. If not, throw books at the DM until you do.

[Firechanter]

If you need to argue it: why does the description not simply say "You gain a special Stance, which is called so-and-so, and grants this and that benefit"?
I'd say the reason is that you still technically _count_ as being in the previous stance, for exactly that type of feat or ability that requires you to be in a certain stance.

[Xerlith]

A random idea I forgot to mention before - go bard into JPM. Grab Knowledge Devotion. Have fun.

[John Longarrow]

ZhanStrider

What are your current stats?
Also, what levels/classes do you already have?

Those will give a good idea what you are starting with. Also, are you planning to go mostly melee, mostly spells, or going gish?

[Roguenewb]

Swordsage into JPM isn't the end of the world, though you could have done slightly better.

Why play a JPM? Because the manuevers allow you to keep the Martial part of the Gish up, effectively at no further cost. A normal melee combatant is powered by feats and stacking. ToBs however, do not have that problem, thus their versatility. A normal Gish has to balance a feat chain, plus casting, plus pre-reqs. Using ToB for your martial gish side makes this easier, freeing up more feats and class levels. Since their is only one ToB Gish class, JPM ahoy. Also, the flavor is very strong, so if you like that flavor its awesome, and the class feels pretty sweet to play, and knocking a couple points off your power helps in a lot of groups. Wraithstrike->Power Attacked Divine Surge triggering Empowered strike for next turn is pretty freaking cool.

[ZhanStrider]

This is exactly what I said. It overrides the benefits (only), so RAW you are still considered being in the Shadow Hand stance. So you still apply your Dex to damage. If not, throw books at the DM until you do.

Throw books at him? DONE. Actually, totally brilliant. I applaud.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If ACFs are on the table, Martial Wizard can help you pick up the prerequisite Martial Stance/Study feats needed a little quicker, if you want to stay single-classed so as to keep that extra caster level (though it's not necessarily recommended); or, you could just use the Fighter bonus feats to do something else that's useful.

[Douglas]

If ACFs are on the table, Martial Wizard can help you pick up the prerequisite Martial Stance/Study feats needed a little quicker, if you want to stay single-classed so as to keep that extra caster level (though it's not necessarily recommended); or, you could just use the Fighter bonus feats to do something else that's useful.
If you don't have a base martial adept class you don't have a maneuver recovery method. I would strongly recommend against that.

[ZhanStrider]

ZhanStrider

What are your current stats?
Also, what levels/classes do you already have?

Those will give a good idea what you are starting with. Also, are you planning to go mostly melee, mostly spells, or going gish?

I'm currently a level 1 swordsage, and im planning mostly melee (intending to make good use of Arcane Wrath class feature) with most of my spellcasting to be to deal with other spells (abjur. dispell magic ect)

I was originally thinking Sorc4/swordsage 6/10 JPM because I could Arcane Wrath like nuts an not lose my important spells, but now I'm thinking Wizard 3/swordsage 7/jpm 10.

[ZhanStrider]

ZhanStrider

What are your current stats?
Also, what levels/classes do you already have?

Those will give a good idea what you are starting with. Also, are you planning to go mostly melee, mostly spells, or going gish?


Stats are
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 14

[Xerlith]

Do not rely on the Arcane Wrath too much. It is a nice attack roll boost, but the damage quickly becomes redundant. And your higher level slots should not be used to fuel it... Too often.
Seeing your stats, I'd say your best bet is going Swordsage1/Wizard4/Swordsage+1/JPM10/Wiz+2/SSage +2. 16BAB, 7th level spells, 9th level maneuvers. Minor AC boost thanks to wisdom.
Still talking core-only, yes?

[ZhanStrider]

Do not rely on the Arcane Wrath too much. It is a nice attack roll boost, but the damage quickly becomes redundant. And your higher level slots should not be used to fuel it... Too often.
Seeing your stats, I'd say your best bet is going Swordsage1/Wizard4/Swordsage+1/JPM10/Wiz+2/SSage +2. 16BAB, 7th level spells, 9th level maneuvers. Minor AC boost thanks to wisdom.
Still talking core-only, yes?

Yeah, sadly core only.

[Xerlith]

Then I'd say the build above is optimal. You sadly cannot have both nines without homebrewing/cheese, so I think for a martial-heavy, short on splatbooks (Abjurant Champion, why art thou not here? :smallfrown:) it's okay. Grab some Devoted Spirit goodness from the JPM, since the desert wind part can be mostly overriden and overshadowed by your Wizard side.

[ZhanStrider]

Swordsage into JPM isn't the end of the world, though you could have done slightly better.

Why play a JPM? Because the manuevers allow you to keep the Martial part of the Gish up, effectively at no further cost. A normal melee combatant is powered by feats and stacking. ToBs however, do not have that problem, thus their versatility. A normal Gish has to balance a feat chain, plus casting, plus pre-reqs. Using ToB for your martial gish side makes this easier, freeing up more feats and class levels. Since their is only one ToB Gish class, JPM ahoy. Also, the flavor is very strong, so if you like that flavor its awesome, and the class feels pretty sweet to play, and knocking a couple points off your power helps in a lot of groups. Wraithstrike->Power Attacked Divine Surge triggering Empowered strike for next turn is pretty freaking cool.

The flavor is a large part of why I'm taking the class. What do you think "knocks a couple points iff your power"?

[Myrddin0001]

If you have a SSage base can you, through JPM levels, gain Devoted Spirit maneuvers even though SSages don't have auto access to them?

[John Longarrow]

I was originally thinking Sorc4/swordsage 6/10 JPM because I could Arcane Wrath like nuts an not lose my important spells, but now I'm thinking Wizard 3/swordsage 7/jpm 10

Have you thought about Swordsage1/wizard 3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +1/JPM?

5th+ character level gives you some nice maneuvers as a crusader. Having auto-reset combat from Crusader can also free up swordsage maneuvers for the fun boosts and counters.

[ZhanStrider]

Further, About the "Emerald Immolation" Class feature. It seems pretty cool, deal damage in an awesome way AND get fully regenerated. Though I am wondering why does the text specify "this ability is the equivalent of a 9th level spell"?