Ruby Knight Vindicator Help me

[MindSculptor]

So I basically got the chance to go back to a game that I was formally playing and I get to make a new character. I want to go RKV. Paladin4/Crusader1/RKV10...

Someone please give me a good guide to this with a good breakdown on where I should start with feats and what not. This is 3.0 by the way.

I will be starting at level 3.
I would like an extensive guide but I cannot find one.

PLEASE HELP!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ta-da (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4330)!

Also, do you mean 3.5? ToB is a 3.5 book, not 3.0. I don't know how well advice will back-convert.

[Firechanter]

I find that Quick-Guide not so particularly helpful. As I recently said in another RKV thread (not touching Paladin entry though) it mainly keeps repeating "You get this special and of course you immediately know what to do with it".

For Paladin4/Crs1/RKV, I suppose you'll use that Divine Impetus to spam your Battle Blessings at twice the speed.

If you go this route, bear in mind that your maneuver progression is noticeably delayed. You'll probably want Thicket of Blades, and unless you take a feat for that, you'll only get that at level 10. Well, still not too bad.

Too bad you can't take Mystic Fire Knight for additional spell slots and CL -- but that would require giving up Turn Undead, which you need to enter RKV.

Which reminds me, you might consider adding in a level of Cloistered Cleric and swap all your domains for Devotion feats. And then you could also take Mystic Fire Knight. ;)

Some feats you will want:

- Power Attack: Bread and Butter
- Combat Reflexes: so you can be good at lockdown. Of course you take a Reach weapon.
- Extra Granted Maneuver: a must-have for any Crusie build
- Stand Still: this is how you actually do lockdown. (Forget that Trip nonsense.)
- Battle Blessing: cast Paladin spells as Swift Action instead of Standard.
[and this is particularly interesting when you can get an additional Swift Action]
- Travel Devotion: move as Swift Action, then Full Attack. [see above]
- Robilar's Gambit: you may not be as well suited for a Retaliation build as a pure Crusader, but still better than most others.

Whoops, with the standard D&D progression without flaws that will already take a Human to level 15.

RKV is pretty MAD, particularly if you want to make use of your built-in Lockdown potential. You can more or less dump Int (you'll have to skip Knowledge Devotion), and only need limited Wis since you can use an item to get it up to 14.

When you're done with RKV, you might consider proceeding as Fist of Raziel, and take another Crusader level at the right point to get a high-level stance.

[MindSculptor]

Okay, at level three paladin, what 3 feats should I take first?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Power Attack, probably? The feats you really need are Battle Blessing, Quicken Spell, DMM and maybe Extra Turning or Practiced Spellcaster, none of which are accessible to you until after level 4. So if there's anything you want, levels 1 to 3 are the time to get it.

[MindSculptor]

DMM? Sorry I'm a newb. There's you can tell me that doesn't teach me something...

[Firechanter]

Okay, at level three paladin, what 3 feats should I take first?

I'd go for Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, provided you are going to be the party's Defender. Next, add Extra Granted Maneuver.


DMM? Sorry I'm a newb. There's you can tell me that doesn't teach me something...

"Divine Metamagic" from Complete Divine. Allows you to apply a certain Metamagic without increasing spell slots, instead you pay with Turn Attempts.

However, I strongly advise against DMM, Quicken or otherwise. You're a Paladin, you don't need to Quicken any spells. Either your spells are Swift anyway, or you reduce them from Standard to Swift with Battle Blessing. That's much better and cheaper than Quicken.

What you should take, however, is Practised Spellcaster, because your CL is atrocious.

(Note: you'd take DMM Quicken with a Cleric 4 entry. Then you could spam your combat buffs real fast -- say, as fast as a Paladin with Battle Blessing.)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

DMM is Divine Metamagic, which you might want for things like Extend Spell. I wasn't thinking when I said Quicken, pardon me. Battle Blessing covers that. The Divine Metamagic feat allows you to cover the level adjustment applied by metamagic feats by using Turn Undead attempts. The most well-known application of this is Persistent Spell. Persistent Spell lets your spell last 24 hours and uses a slot 4 levels higher. By giving up four Turn Undead attempts for the day, you could cast a Persistent Divine Favor out of a 1st level slot.

Edit: if you take Firechanter's advice and go Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, you could do worse than using two Flaws to also pick up Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness.

[Firechanter]

Almost, except DMM Persist eats 7 Turn Attempts per spell, not 4. (Persist increases the slot by 6 levels, plus 1 TU extra.)
Also you need Extend Spell as prereq, so that's 3 feats already, plus probably Extra Turning to pay for it -- four feats for a Divine Favor that doesn't do all that much for the Paladin, due to bad CL. In short, not worth it in this case.

[MindSculptor]

So, my dex mod is 0... That makes combat reflexes useless... What should I prioritize as far as my stats? I have str 18 dex 10 con 17 int 12 wis 13 cha 15...

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Almost, except DMM Persist eats 7 Turn Attempts per spell, not 4. (Persist increases the slot by 6 levels, plus 1 TU extra.)
Also you need Extend Spell as prereq, so that's 3 feats already, plus probably Extra Turning to pay for it -- four feats for a Divine Favor that doesn't do all that much for the Paladin, due to bad CL. In short, not worth it in this case.

No, it's not. It was an example to illustrate how it worked. Divine Favor is a first level spell that Persist applies to. DMM Persist isn't a good option for a Paladin because of Battle Blessing, but DMM Extend can be useful.

And while CARc's printing is the most recent and thus controlling, in FRCS it's +4 and that's the one I looked at (because my copy of CArc is in a box from moving). So yeah, it's 5 TUs in that example, 7 if you're using CArc.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So, my dex mod is 0... That makes combat reflexes useless... What should I prioritize as far as my stats? I have str 18 dex 10 con 17 int 12 wis 13 cha 15...

I would certainly switch Int and Dex. You aren't going to be particularly skillful, no matter what you do.

[Firechanter]

So, my dex mod is 0... That makes combat reflexes useless... What should I prioritize as far as my stats? I have str 18 dex 10 con 17 int 12 wis 13 cha 15...

Ouch, I might say. The Crusader's shtick is defending, and that's hard to do if you can't control who's getting past you. Can't you shuffle around the stats? With these rolls, I'd do something like use the 10 for Int, 12 for Wis and then arrange the 13 and 15 to taste between Dex and Cha.

Unless you can get odd-bonus ability enhancer items, use your levelups to make the odd numbers even, and put the final two into Str. Pick up a Wis +2 item in good time (around level 10 should do).

If you're stuck with Dex 10, well, then you can kick out Stand Still as well, but I'm really a bit at a loss what to advise you there, as you'll have a hard time doing your Defending job.

--

Edit:
As your first Crusader Stance, pick up Iron Guard's Glare. Later, pick up Thicket of Blades. Both help you keeping the baddies away from your friends.

[MindSculptor]

I can do whatever you advise.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You could also switch Dex and Cha (or Dex->Cha, Cha->Wis, Wis->Dex) and use your level 3 feat on Serenity, a feat from Dragon 306 and the Dragon Compendium, which replaces your Cha mod to Divine Grace, Smites, Turn Undead and Lay on Hands with your Wis modifier. That'd reduce your dependence on multiple attributes all the way down to 4.

If it were me I'd go with 18 Str, 15 Dex, 17 Con, 12 Int, 13 Wis and 10 Cha, and go with Firechanter's feat suggestions. Use a flaw to take all 3 at level 1 (Shaky is probably a good one here) and Serenity at 3.

[MindSculptor]

I'd love a beginner's guide to his track I'm on. I appreciate the input you guys have given me. I'll try to follow it as best I can. A reach weapon is needed for the lockdown though? Like some kind of long spear or something?

[Firechanter]

Yes right, I hadn't realized Serenity also applies to the number TU attempts. Yeah then that makes sense. If you can fit the feat in (not every DM allows flaws), distribute the stats as Quickly advises. Otherwise, put the 10 in Int.

Oh, and your Smite will be rather useless, unless you take Fist of Raziel in late-game. Consider swapping that out for an ACF.

[MindSculptor]

Wait... That's 4 feats... Standstill, combat refl, power attack and serenity?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yeah. If your DM allows, you can get up to two extra feats at level 1 by taking Flaws. Flaws are like negative feats. For each flaw you take, you get an extra feat (max two, though, and only at level 1. And some DMs don't like them so check with yours). Since your three main feats can all be taken at level 1, you can use a Flaw to pick all of them up at once, leaving your level 3 feat available for Serenity, which isn't available before then.

As far as ACFs that lose Smite, Holy Judge gives you FE (Devils).

[Firechanter]

A reach weapon is needed for the lockdown though? Like some kind of long spear or something?

Yeah, but not really a long spear, rather a Glaive, Ranseur or Guisarme. I actually prefer the Glaive, because with Stand Still we don't need Trip or Disarm bonuses, but damage is always good to have.

You want a Reach weapon to 1.) threaten a wide area, so enemies can't simply bypass you, and 2.) so they actually draw AoOs when they approach or try to bypass you.
Fit your armour with armour spikes so you also threaten adjacent squares.

The best weapon of all is the Spiked Chain, but that costs an extra feat. Maybe you can fit that in later, when everything else is covered -- it's not crucial to the build.

BTW, shaping a Pally-RKV is really rather easy; recently I designed a melee-centric Clr/Crs/SS/RKV and that was a bit of a pain. ;)

For maneuvers, focus on White Raven mainly and some Devoted Spirit. RKV also gives access to Shadow Hand but for a Pally build I'd pretty much ignore it.

Be sure to pick up Mountain Hammer, and White Raven Tactics. Go from there, but avoid further Stone Dragon maneuvers, most of them are crappy.

[MindSculptor]

What if I can't take the flaw.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Then go 18 Str, 15 Dex, 17 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis and 12 Cha and drop Serenity. At 4 increase Dex, at 8 increase Con and at 12 increase Wis.

[MindSculptor]

Man, so complicated... haha I have power, CR, and Stand Stand Still with that last set of attributes you advised.

[Firechanter]

Good.
BTW, you might want to consider taking _6_ levels of Paladin before entering RKV. That will actually buff your spellcasting and improve your maneuver choice, because you can take Thicket of Blades 2 levels earlier. However, your RKV specials come in 2 levels later, so it's always a tradeoff.

If you do that, though, don't forget to trade in your other useless Paladin abilities: trade the Special Mount for a Divine Spirit, described in Dungeonscape.
And make sure to get rid of Remove Disease; basically _anything_ else is better than that. I like Spellshatter from Mystic Fire Knight, though Haste from Wary Swordknight also sounds nice.

Oh and be sure to bump Wis up to 14 on level 8, so you get your 2nd-level spell asap. Con can wait until level 12, I'd say.

Looks like you're set!

[MindSculptor]

I think I am going to stick with my first plan. It seems it keeps getting more and more complicated. I just want a fun character to play. A feat selection path would be nice if one of you guys could give one to me through level 20. I just don't want to end up wasting a feat on something I'm never going to use... And I guess the spells won't he hard to figure out after my character starts to develop... Any suggestions? Should I pick up practiced spellcaster at level 4.

[Firechanter]

Do you get a feat at level 4?
Normally not, but maybe you are using a houserule for increased feat progression. For example, we play with the PF progression (feat every odd level).

I'm not sure about Practised Spellcaster -- basically it's a good feat, but it really depends if you think you need longer buff durations. I'd probably put that off until later.

Anyway, for the standard feat frequency, I'd do this:

R: Power Attack
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Stand Still
6: Extra Granted Maneuver
9: Travel Devotion
12: Robilar's Gambit
15: Practised Spellcaster
18: Battle Blessing

Though that is by no means set in stone; you could argue for shuffling around the latter 4 feats in practically any way. For instance, I put in Battle Blessing very late, because you are getting most of your spells very late. Whereas Travel Devotion will be useful to you the instant you get it.
Robilar's Gambit at level 12 because that's the earliest you can take it.

You could also say, Retaliation is not my cup of tea, so kick out Robilar and take in, for instance, Extra Turning, so you get more mileage out of your RKV abilities.
(Also, be sure to pick up a Rod of Nightstick (from Libris Mortis) when you can afford it for 4 extra turn attempts.)

So in short: take the feats exactly as written up to and including level 6. From then on, you can shuffle or substitute what you think makes the most sense at the time.

[MindSculptor]

Thanks a lot Firechanter and Quicken. I really appreciate what your advice. I might message later if more questions come up! For now I think I'm at least set for the next few levels... And I meant to say 4th feat, not 4th level. Excuse me...

[Firechanter]

You're welcome, always glad to help more aspiring RKV brethren on their way to glory and kickassery. ^^ Don't hestitate to ask if more questions turn up.

[MindSculptor]

Any level 4 spell choice recommendations for my role as tank?