New DM with a few little homebrew ideas for a LOW-op game.

[Tegu8788]

I've been wanting to dip my toes into DMing for a while now, and I have a few people who are interested in playing. One has never played any sort of RPG outside of Kingdom Hearts, the other experienced in Pathfinder but only one game of 4e that ends because of a bad DM. I am to play a fun game, and I don't expect any kind of cheese, I let one player dabble with the builder, so far her Warden has Str 15.


So, I'm trying to think of a few ways to make things a bit more fun, and easy, for them. Besides the normal of allowing an extra expertise feat free and using inherant bonuses, I'm considering also allow a free non-combat feat to everyone per tier, letting everything character builder legal into play, and maybe even giving them a large point buy than normal. I'm not certain on the last one.

As someone that enjoys options I'm inclined to let them start at above level 1, but I don't want to over complicate things. Does anyone have any tips about these matters?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, what tips do you want?

A free expertise feat is probably the most common houserule in 4E, and makes characters more diverse. Inherent bonuses eliminate the need for a christmas tree of magical items. A warden with strength 15 is just not a good idea, regardless of optimization level; missing often is needlessly frustrating. Non-combat feats don't really do anything, so adding them won't unbalance anything either. Allowing everything in the charbuilder is the default state of the game anyway. And finally, point buy really doesn't make much of a difference, since the only stat that really matters is your primary, which can't go higher than 18 +2 racial anyway.

The game is more fun above level 1, indeed it's pretty boring below level 5 for anyone who's not a first-time player. Other than that, you should generally avoid houseruling unless you know the system well, but note that "higher point buy" and "inherent bonuses" and "allow all books" aren't houserules.

[Gavran]

I don't really like the sound of 15 STR warden either, but I'm going to repress the power-gamer in me and say that you should just be very observant of how they're doing in fights. If they miss too often, lower monster defenses. If they're getting creamed, lower monster damage. If it's both, use lower level monsters than normal. I don't think there are any hard rules that can bring a low-op group to a standard level of play, but it should be doable with encounter tweaking. Lots of work for you, of course, but these are the things we do for our beloved players. <3

Personally I would avoid altering /their/ power levels too much while you find the balance.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't really like the sound of 15 STR warden either, but I'm going to repress the power-gamer in me and say that you should just be very observant of how they're doing in fights. If they miss too often, lower monster defenses. If they're getting creamed, lower monster damage. If it's both, use lower level monsters than normal. I don't think there are any hard rules that can bring a low-op group to a standard level of play, but it should be doable with encounter tweaking. Lots of work for you, of course, but these are the things we do for our beloved players. <3

Sure. But if the other players have figured out this very basic step and are starting with a 20 primary ability, then you've got a problem that you can't adjust monsters to both the normal players and the weak player. There's really no reason ever to have a 15 primary; just tell the player to make it at least an 18.

[Gavran]

A fair point, and probably the only real solution provided the other players make better choices.

[Tegu8788]

The Warden thought intelligence would be smart to have. While true, its not optimal. Which is one reason I'm tempted to increase the point buy. Would 28 be too much? 30? 26?

I will work to get at least an 18 into strength, so she can fight well. This would be more of a story telling game than beating the bad guy type thing, but a story about missing all the time is no fun.

[Gavran]

I think standard point buy ought to be fine, but that you should explain to each player the importance of their primary (maybe secondary, too). I don't think low-op power selection and such will have as big of an impact, and I don't think you need to build all the characters, but setting them up with a good foundation is probably important.

[Kurald Galain]

The Warden thought intelligence would be smart to have.
It's not. Wardens get absolutely zero benefit from having intelligence. You're allowed to play a smart character without a genius-level int score, but if the player wants a smart defender allow me to recommend the Swordmage.

The thing is that picking your stats for RP purposes and having them all in the 10-14 range doesn't mesh with 4E.

[tcrudisi]

The Warden thought intelligence would be smart to have. While true, its not optimal. Which is one reason I'm tempted to increase the point buy. Would 28 be too much? 30? 26?

I will work to get at least an 18 into strength, so she can fight well. This would be more of a story telling game than beating the bad guy type thing, but a story about missing all the time is no fun.

Of course intelligence is smart to have. (Bah dum tsh)

I wouldn't worry too much about the players, though. Make sure they start with at least a 16 (with a +3 prof weapon) or an 18, and they'll be fine. Yeah, if they are low-op, you might be throwing monsters that are a level lower than expected, but so what? It only really makes a difference if one person does know how to optimize somewhat while the other doesn't. If they are all equally bad then it's easier on you.

Beyond that, it almost feels like you are trying to go, "If I give them more power, they'll like the game more!" Don't worry about that, either. Let them play. After a few sessions, you can find out if they want to ramp things up or keep them as-is. If they want to ramp things up, then you can find out if they want to go to a higher level or just get some of those freebies you were talking about. (Perhaps you could find a way to give them free training in the game.)

[dariathalon]

Yeah, I'd definitely avoid the trap of giving them more power. If anything, dial back the difficulty level at first.

First thing I'd do is give them a session or two to get used to the rules before they build their characters. Make some very simple (AVOID YOUR HYBRID FIXATION :smallwink:) sample characters done the right way. Give them to the players (probably a good idea to make sure someone in the group has a character similar to the type someone else wants to run) and then run a session to just get used to the rules. Run them through a couple of encounters, maybe a skill challenge or two, throw in all the typical sorts of things. Tell the players what you're doing up front, and if you really want to you can even tie this back into one of the first few adventures.

After the learning session(s) have everyone build their characters. Then you can say things like "remember how Bob's fighter had a strength of 18 that he used for almost everything. Your warden is kind of like that and will need strength a lot. You probably want to build that up a few points higher. And see how he didn't use his int for much, maybe that's a place you can take a few points from."

Give them the normal base-line amount of power. If you give them more power, they won't learn how to play without the boost and they'll always expect it. If you need to it is okay to lower the encounter difficulty down some until they get used to the game.

I'd still say to start them at level one, and if they are getting used to it quickly level them quickly to start so that they can get into the good stuff faster. This will also give them more frequent options to trade things out. Heck, you might even want to give them the chance to after each of the first few levels do a complete rebuild. Let them know that the option probably won't always be there, but it is there as a safety rope if they made some really bad decisions to start.

[Excession]

Maybe just use a standard array for stats to start with. 16/16/31/11/10/10/8 is perhaps a better option than the one presented in PHB1. Alternatively, I've been tempted to use something inspired by 4e Gamma World:

No racial bonuses to stats.
Your class defines your primary stat (some classes choose from 2). Put an 18 in that.
Pick a secondary stat. Some classes define this, others get to choose. Put a 16 in that.
Roll 4d6b3 straight down for the other stats.

A balance between simplicity, balance, and randomness.

[Tegu8788]

Of course intelligence is smart to have. (Bah dum tsh)

Beyond that, it almost feels like you are trying to go, "If I give them more power, they'll like the game more!" Don't worry about that, either. Let them play. After a few sessions, you can find out if they want to ramp things up or keep them as-is. If they want to ramp things up, then you can find out if they want to go to a higher level or just get some of those freebies you were talking about. (Perhaps you could find a way to give them free training in the game.)

I suspect that I have fallen into that trap, which is one of the reasons that I wanted to ask those that know better than me. Incorporating boosts later on intrigue me, as I would like to reward good RP.


Yeah, I'd definitely avoid the trap of giving them more power. If anything, dial back the difficulty level at first.

First thing I'd do is give them a session or two to get used to the rules before they build their characters. Make some very simple (AVOID YOUR HYBRID FIXATION :smallwink:) sample characters done the right way. Give them to the players (probably a good idea to make sure someone in the group has a character similar to the type someone else wants to run) and then run a session to just get used to the rules. Run them through a couple of encounters, maybe a skill challenge or two, throw in all the typical sorts of things. Tell the players what you're doing up front, and if you really want to you can even tie this back into one of the first few adventures.

I'd still say to start them at level one, and if they are getting used to it quickly level them quickly to start so that they can get into the good stuff faster. This will also give them more frequent options to trade things out. Heck, you might even want to give them the chance to after each of the first few levels do a complete rebuild. Let them know that the option probably won't always be there, but it is there as a safety rope if they made some really bad decisions to start.

I am looking to find a few pregens, that will not be hybrids. The Warden player saw that on the builder, but I steered her away from that. I love hybrids, but good ones. I don't want to see bad hybrids played. I think I will use the pregens to do practice encounters, and then kill them off in a fight. Big Bad introduced, and hook planted.