What tier would this class be?+Other theoretical questions [Archive]

Yuki Akuma

2013-09-14, 10:41 PM

What tier would this class be?

4.

Would you ever dip this as a caster and lose caster levels?

No.

What feats would you go for?

Martial Study, Shape Soulmeld, feats that grant SLAs, etc. Anything to actually have something interesting to do. :smalltongue:

You could probably make an... okay Incarnum user with this chassis. Better than a Soulborn anyway.

Amphetryon

2013-09-14, 10:41 PM

Yeah, Tier 3 I'd say. You can go pretty far with those skills, and be a good melee beatstick, but you don't have spells. You do not have spells. You cannot be Tier 2 if you do not have spells.

By mid-late game, when other Classes get access to Haste, Flight, significant BFC like Solid Fog, and status effect mitigation, I expect the example Class would feel more like T4 than T3, simply because its abilities were marginalized or relegated to "how much have you invested in UMD/UPD?"

Rubik

2013-09-14, 10:48 PM

I'd say it straddles the line between T3 and T4, depending on what skills and feats are taken.

If you go after all the best skills and throw in incarnum feats and Martial Study/Martial Stance, it could be a low T3. Anything else is basically T4.

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 10:53 PM

Bonus feat every feat, think of all those prcs you could qualify for

Rubik

2013-09-14, 10:57 PM

Are the bonus feats like fighter feats, where you have to qualify, or are they like monk bonus feats, where you don't?

If it's the latter, it might just hit really high T3. Maybe. If you build well.

tyckspoon

2013-09-14, 11:06 PM

The last time this came up I think the general consensus was Tier 3 with intelligent selection of Incarnum/Binding/Initiator feats, although there was some argument that strong physical base + skillmonkeying was enough on its own to qualify.

Con_Brio1993

2013-09-14, 11:07 PM

Snowbluff

2013-09-14, 11:07 PM

I'd say T3. The Factotum gets by on a similiar deal, and much of that class can be replicated in 20 feats.

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 11:18 PM

F] a bonus feat (not just fighter but must meet prereqs) every level.

Are the bonus feats like fighter feats, where you have to qualify, or are they like monk bonus feats, where you don't?

If it's the latter, it might just hit really high T3. Maybe. If you build well.

You just chewed someone out in my own thread for not understanding PSI like abilities and manifesting, and you missed that Rubik ? :P

Snowbluff

2013-09-14, 11:26 PM

You just chewed someone out in my own thread for not understanding PSI like abilities and manifesting, and you missed that Rubik ? :P

To be fair, he never figured out why I was confused.

Rubik

2013-09-14, 11:36 PM

You just chewed someone out in my own thread for not understanding PSI like abilities and manifesting, and you missed that Rubik ? :PI was hoping you'd changed your mind. :smallcool:

To be fair, he never figured out why I was confused.Oh, I know exactly why you were "confused." :smallannoyed:

Snowbluff

2013-09-14, 11:38 PM

Oh, I know exactly why you were "confused." :smallannoyed:

Oh? It sounds like you have something to say, Rubik. Do you know what confuses me?

gurgleflep

2013-09-14, 11:42 PM

I've got a question! What if you were to tack on powers from the psychic warrior to it?

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 11:47 PM

I was hoping you'd changed your mind. :smallcool:

:

On what, this isn't my thread, and the other one was a rules question not a...umm opinion .

I've got a question! What if you were to tack on powers from the psychic warrior to it?

psychic warrior is already tier 3 , if you added this and psychics points/powers I think you could make an argument for a low tier 2.

Snowbluff

2013-09-14, 11:50 PM

I've got a question! What if you were to tack on powers from the psychic warrior to it?

Pretty much what Cyberdragon said. The extra feats could be spent to greatly improve the powers known and other abilities, allowing for a potential tier bump.

Does anyone know some gamebreakers for PsiWar that are really feat intensive? They have Metamorphic Transfer as an option...

avr

2013-09-14, 11:50 PM

Tier 3, and if I were making an eldritch knight gish or similar I might well dip a level in it despite losing the caster level. "Might" because warblade exists.

Edit: for the original version. Add psychic warrior powers and I assume PP and you can probably do something ridiculous with metapsionic feats which'd make it tier 2.

Rubik

2013-09-14, 11:51 PM

On what, this isn't my thread, and the other one was a rules question not a...umm opinion.Meh. I'm tired. Sorry for the confusion.

psychic warrior is already tier 3 , if you added this and psychics points/powers I think you could make an argument for a low tier 2.Adding some skills and feats and BAB won't make it T2. Strong T3, yes. VERY strong T3. But it's not game-breaking enough for T2 unless you really pushed yourself into the psion's niche -- which you can already do, if you try hard.

The Mentalist

2013-09-14, 11:53 PM

psychic warrior is already tier 3 , if you added this and psychics points/powers I think you could make an argument for a low tier 2.

Yes, but what if you tacked True Namer onto it?

Snowbluff

2013-09-14, 11:55 PM

Yes, but what if you tacked True Namer onto it?No change would happen. Gate is considered to come too late for Truenamer to matter.
Tier seven. :smalltongue:

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 11:57 PM

Psicrystal Affinity, and Psicrystal Containment. This allows the character to start combat with two psionic foci

The blind fight line

All those lovely Ithaillid feats

Tashalatora

Crafting feats

You can waste feats for shield ward

Make all those grapple feats finally

And I think still have room for few others

Grod_The_Giant

2013-09-14, 11:59 PM

Hard to say. If you pick lots of Incarnum or Martial feats, then sure, you're probably T3, but at that point, you're really playing a cut-rate meldshaper/initiator, so why not run the real thing?

Damage is easy via combat feats. Out of combat... well, you get tons o' skills. You can do most things, and do them more easily than a T4, but you don't have actual spells or class features, so OTHER T3s will be better at their schticks than you.

Call it "Tier 3.5," alongside the Warblade, Duskblade, Warmage, Rogue, and other classes that people endlessly argue about the tier of.

psychic warrior is already tier 3 , if you added this and psychics points/powers I think you could make an argument for a low tier 2.
Nah. You'd get a stronger T3, sure, but you don't have 9th level spells, so you're not hitting the sheer game-breaking power of a T2.

I'd say T3. The Factotum gets by on a similiar deal, and much of that class can be replicated in 20 feats.
Ehh... Factotum gets a lot of unique stuff, Cunning Surge and the casting at the top of the list.

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 11:59 PM

psion's niche -- which you can already do, if you try hard.

You have over 27 feats to accomplish whatever build you want...I think teir 2 with how many feat chains you want to build with, is more then possible.

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 12:04 AM

]
Ehh... Factotum gets a lot of unique stuff, Cunning Surge and the casting at the top of the list.
Cunning surge, maybe. Replicating spells? Definitely doable in 20 feats.

avr

2013-09-15, 12:07 AM

If 9ths are all it takes, Psychic Warrior might be tier 2 already. Some lower level psi powers can be augmented to be effectively 9th (see: Astral Construct) and can be acquired via Expanded Knowledge. A feat every level just makes getting them more practical.

gurgleflep

2013-09-15, 12:08 AM

Okay... how about if we used casting as a skill? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277622)

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 12:09 AM

T1, probably.

If 9ths are all it takes, Psychic Warrior might be tier 2 already. Some lower level psi powers can be augmented to be effectively 9th (see: Astral Construct) and can be acquired via Expanded Knowledge. A feat every level just makes getting them more practical.

I am not sure Astral Construct is that good. Although...

More questions, guys. What powers augment to broken versions of themselves?

Tvtyrant

2013-09-15, 12:10 AM

This is one of the best entries into Chameleon ever. Not Cleric good, but still amazing. So many feats you can build off of, and the ability to absolutely rock in combat.

Rubik

2013-09-15, 12:21 AM

This is one of the best entries into Chameleon ever. Not Cleric good, but still amazing. So many feats you can build off of, and the ability to absolutely rock in combat.It'd certainly be good in gestalt.

Tvtyrant

2013-09-15, 12:22 AM

It'd certainly be good in gestalt.

Yeah, in Gestalt almost everyone who isn't going Incarnate would probably take this. Good passives for everything and nothing to lose by going into an active class.

CyberThread

2013-09-15, 12:34 AM

T1, probably.

I am not sure Astral Construct is that good. Although...

More questions, guys. What powers augment to broken versions of themselves?

Why not binders, with that unlimited summon online add on. and astrals are...odd

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 12:39 AM

Yeah, in Gestalt almost everyone who isn't going Incarnate would probably take this. Good passives for everything and nothing to lose by going into an active class.
If I didn't have any synergies in mind, I would use it.

Why not binders, with that unlimited summon online add on.

Wait, what are you asking? :smallconfused:

avr

2013-09-15, 12:41 AM

T1, probably.

I am not sure Astral Construct is that good. Although...

More questions, guys. What powers augment to broken versions of themselves?
Augment Astral Construct to get a 9th level construct, and you have something functionally equivalent to Summon Monster IX. Which is 9th level, if not brokenly 9th level. It's just the simplest example which sprang into my head.

Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) bears a disturbing resemblance to Time Stop, especially when augmented.

Ego whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) may never equal 9ths, but it does augment nicely. Same for Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm).

Control Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlAir.htm) augments to something a lot like Control Winds.

OK, aside from damaging spells there's only a couple which augment to the equivalent of a 9th level spell.

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 12:45 AM

Augment Astral Construct to get a 9th level construct, and you have something functionally equivalent to Summon Monster IX. Which is 9th level, if not brokenly 9th level. It's just the simplest example which sprang into my head. It's a strong power, don't get me wrong, but SM IX is probably better because you can bring creatures with SLAs. IIRC, Astral Construct isn't that good.

Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) bears a disturbing resemblance to Time Stop, especially when augmented.
Hmm... this is good.

OK, aside from damaging spells there's only a couple which augment to the equivalent of a 9th level spell.:smallfrown:

It's not looking like a T2, then.

Rubik

2013-09-15, 12:46 AM

Metamorphosis alone is capable of making something seem awfully close to T2, even at high levels.

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 12:48 AM

Metamorphosis alone is capable of making something seem awfully close to T2, even at high levels.
Yeah, I've already pointed out Metamorphic Transfer. Close, but 1 thing is not quite enough, as you've said.

CyberThread

2013-09-15, 01:22 AM

Wait, what are you asking? :smallconfused:

I was pointing out that binders with unlimited summoning, count as tier 2.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2013-09-15, 01:38 AM

I'm voting T3.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Let's see. Definitely capable of filling many roles pre-creation. Definitely capable of performing many functions post-creation. I can't see this being that much worse in combat than a Crusader or Warblade, which are solidly T3. Fighters, Scouts and Barbarians are T4 and it's strictly superior to all three.

gooddragon1

2013-09-15, 02:07 AM

CyberThread

2013-09-15, 02:16 AM

I love this theorycrafting. So I'll add some more...

What if it fully advanced casting or manifesting like a PRC does and didn't count as multiclassing for xp penalties due to multiclassing. Would you dip in it? How much? With what? What PRC's does it beat out and which ones doesn't it beat out? Other speculation?

Oh we already go that, it is called legacy champion :P

The Mentalist

2013-09-15, 02:17 AM

What if it fully advanced casting or manifesting like a PRC does and didn't count as multiclassing for xp penalties due to multiclassing. Would you dip in it? How much? With what? What PRC's does it beat out and which ones doesn't it beat out? Other speculation?

We name it Gish in a Box and declare it a wonderful casting PrC (free metamagic on a better frame is nice). It would become pretty broken though, Wizards and Clerics get no class features and this chassis is better in every way, if it advanced spell-casting and gave every metamagic feat + metamagic reducers (through 19 bonus feats) it would be too far. Though I would pay to see Wizard 1/This Class 9/Incantatrix 10 (note, this should never see play, it would be painfully broken.)

Rubik

2013-09-15, 02:19 AM

I love this theorycrafting. So I'll add some more...

What if it fully advanced casting or manifesting like a PRC does and didn't count as multiclassing for xp penalties due to multiclassing. Would you dip in it? How much? With what? What PRC's does it beat out and which ones doesn't it beat out? Other speculation?Assuming you needed one level of a casting or manifesting class, there's no reason you would ever need more than one level of anything other than PrCs and druid.

I don't count wilder because, why?

The Mentalist

2013-09-15, 02:19 AM

Oh we already go that, it is called legacy champion :P

But that doesn't give a bonus feat every level without the Dark Chaos Shuffle. It's also not a perfect chassis for a class.

Assuming you needed one level of a casting or manifesting class, there's no reason you would ever need more than one level of anything other than PrCs and druid.

On that note, quadruple 9s + 4 attacks/round.

Snowbluff

2013-09-15, 09:05 AM

I was pointing out that binders with unlimited summoning, count as tier 2.
o.0

I would say it's because they never have a limit, and that they get access to spells through summons.

I love this theorycrafting. So I'll add some more...

What if it fully advanced casting or manifesting like a PRC does and didn't count as multiclassing for xp penalties due to multiclassing. Would you dip in it? How much? With what? What PRC's does it beat out and which ones doesn't it beat out? Other speculation?

I'd pay 4 feats for that. It's like Ruathar on steroids.

Chronos

2013-09-15, 06:16 PM

Quoth QuickLyRaiNbow:

Fighters, Scouts and Barbarians are T4 and it's strictly superior to all three.
It's certainly strictly better than Fighter, but Scout and Barbarian both have abilities that you can't get through feats, so it's not strictly superior to them. It might be generally superior to barbarian (piling on enough bonus feats could probably eventually give you more damage than rage does), but I don't know if it's even generally superior to scout: Trapfinding, camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight are all pretty important for a skillmonkey.

limejuicepowder

2013-09-15, 08:30 PM

Not perfectly on topic, but does anyone else think this class would terribly boring?

Rubik

2013-09-15, 08:36 PM

Not perfectly on topic, but does anyone else think this class would terribly boring?More so than the fighter? Pheh.

Nettlekid

2013-09-15, 08:38 PM

Not perfectly on topic, but does anyone else think this class would terribly boring?

Not really. It looks a bit boring on paper for having no proper class features, but there are builds based entirely around skill use that are pretty fun, or complex feat chains like Fighters. Jack B Quick is a Fighter 20, not boring, and this would be like that with more skills. It might not be as flavorful as say, Rogue or Ranger, but it could be made interesting enough.

The Mentalist

2013-09-15, 08:44 PM

Not perfectly on topic, but does anyone else think this class would terribly boring?

The original class presented it would depend on how you built it. You could do some very cool things with 20 additional feats that would grant you some interesting things to do. It would be something that someone who wasn't quite experienced with could build to be really a drag to play though.

Personally I think it would be cool to build better warrior archetypes with it, there are some cool things you could do with those Tactical and Style feats in complete Warrior, a Paladin with a dip in this class (actually probably the other way around) would rock with some Divine Feats and Extra Turning, it really does depend on how you build the class, it has mutable class features and that can make something really cool and unique or it can make a character with Weapon Focus three times and Toughness. I would honestly look at good Fighter builds as a starting place for interesting things you can do with this and remember that it can do at least two of those trees (giving you perhaps something like a Commando Ranger, ranged and TWF specialization [which is an archetype no class can really pull off all that well because both trees are so feat intensive] or refluffed Incarnum feats would make an interesting character (particularly if you can get Totemist Soulmelds) would make a very cool savage warrior type. You can of course make an epic skill monkey, [and Skill Tricks would be fun to add to this because you have the points for them]) there are a lot of ideas that spring to mind and I may actually formalize some of these builds just as thought experiments. This class is basically a perfect example of a healthy seperation between fluff and crunch, this class can be anything you really want it to be (I even think it can pull off some minor casting) but it really does make you do the work to make it interesting.

Rubik

2013-09-15, 08:45 PM

Not really. It looks a bit boring on paper for having no proper class features, but there are builds based entirely around skill use that are pretty fun, or complex feat chains like Fighters. Jack B Quick is a Fighter 20, not boring, and this would be like that with more skills. It might not be as flavorful as say, Rogue or Ranger, but it could be made interesting enough.Think "Lucid Dreaming + Diplomacy + Iaijutsu Focus + Quick Draw + alchemical items."

limejuicepowder

2013-09-15, 10:43 PM

Yeah I suppose. There is something nice about the "clean slate." I also think it would work well to depict heroic figures who boast huge and varied skillsets.

Still, I find something asthetically displeasing about the lack of obvious weak spots. Later game play would not be nearly as rewarding either as other char gain prc capstones and this char gains something they could have gotten at 6th level.