What is the toughest thing an E6 party can face?

[Tvtyrant]

Assuming that the party cannot gain access to fourth level or higher supernatural abilities (spells, powers, mysteries, etc.) what is the highest CR foe an E6 party could face? A Gelugon seems a little over the top, while an Iron Golem seems like a fairly easy foe.

[The Mentalist]

They can incapacitate (though not kill, no Wish) Big T

[bekeleven]

They can incapacitate (though not kill, no Wish) Big T

Correct. They can "beat" anything that's a giant melee beatstick, and bonus points if it can't fly.

But that's just one of the ways the CR system is borked. Any optimized party can beat any ground-based melee enemy at level 5+.

[A_S]

If you're generous with available sources, infinite feats make metamagic stacking pretty powerful. For instance, a Sorcerer with Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic (for several metamagic feats), Easy Metamagic (ditto), and Metamagic School focus could cast an Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeating Reach Split Ray Energy Admixed Searing Combust as a level 3 spell 3/day. I'm not sure exactly what that lets you take out, but it's probably not level-appropriate.

[123456789blaaa]

I remember a challenge on these boards where different E6 teams competed to see which ones could take out a balor. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

[Platymus Pus]

Assuming that the party cannot gain access to fourth level or higher supernatural abilities (spells, powers, mysteries, etc.) what is the highest CR foe an E6 party could face? A Gelugon seems a little over the top, while an Iron Golem seems like a fairly easy foe.

Heroic fantasy eh?

In combat, a gelugon prefers to let its minions engage foes in melee so that it can hang back and appraise the foe's tactics, strengths, and weaknesses. The ice devil supports its minions with its spell-like abilities, always taking care to avoid impacting its minions in the area of effect of its spells—this not from any sense of camaraderie, only a cold and logical truth that its allies can survive longer in a fight if they are not exposed to friendly fire.
Very Powerful for his CR and smart, could overkill.

The Iron golem is only easy because it's stupid, it's touch ac is low.
Everything else looks nice. But stupid won't do.

A thanadaemon looks interesting however.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I remember a challenge on these boards where different E6 teams competed to see which ones could take out a balor. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

It's right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998).

[Platymus Pus]

It's right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998).

That's crazy.
So much for unbeatable.

[Just to Browse]

That is a true testament to human ingenuity. I love people.

[Zombimode]

Assuming that the party cannot gain access to fourth level or higher supernatural abilities (spells, powers, mysteries, etc.) what is the highest CR foe an E6 party could face? A Gelugon seems a little over the top, while an Iron Golem seems like a fairly easy foe.

Depends on your question in specific.

Do you ask how tough a creature an actual play-at-the-table E6 party with real people can overcome?

Or do you ask what a party of 4 characters created under the E6 restrictions could theoretically overcome?


The answer would be extremely different for each question.

People have already pointed to the Balor challenge. This would be an answer to the second question. But I would wager that if you would actually confront the overwhelming majority of E6 parties with a Balor, they would just die without even a glimpse of hope.

[TiaC]

That thread inspired me, so I made an entry. Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=657186) it is. Unkillable without soul-destruction, and able to possess the Balor 80% of the time.

[ben-zayb]

It's right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998).

The moment I saw this post, that thread was the first thing in my mind. Not only is the Balor beatable, but there are plenty of ways to do so! I personalky like the one where they whack a stunned balor with HIS OWN VORPAL SWORD. Simply hilarious and brilliant. Props to SwordGuy's clever strategy too.

[Tvtyrant]

Depends on your question in specific.

Do you ask how tough a creature an actual play-at-the-table E6 party with real people can overcome?

Or do you ask what a party of 4 characters created under the E6 restrictions could theoretically overcome?


The answer would be extremely different for each question.

People have already pointed to the Balor challenge. This would be an answer to the second question. But I would wager that if you would actually confront the overwhelming majority of E6 parties with a Balor, they would just die without even a glimpse of hope.

More the former. The Balor issues is that you have builds and teams devoted to kill the Balor, while I want to know what level of monster would be okay to throw at the party regularly and without a ton of build up.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My E6 party has taken on encounters as high as CR15 without explicit preparation, but these are either "big beatstick" creatures or "masses of mooks" endurance tests. By contrast, if I were to throw. A CR15 Green Dragon at the party (and I did, albeit with the Xorvintaal template to eliminate its spellcasting), or even a CR11 Hezrou would slaughter the same party if played intelligently. The Hezrou, in particular, would recognize that no mere mortal can withstand their Blasphemy, and just paralyzes them all for 1d10 minutes, no save, and then gleefully culls their souls with a series of coup de graces.

Following the demon line on down, I would pause for consideration before including a Bebelith (CR10), and a Vrock (CR9) would be a difficult encounter, if played intelligently, even for a well-constructed party at the table.

So you might have to typify what an at-CR encounter might entail.