[PrC] Over-Sized Master

[Roderick_BR]

Based on some comments about huge weapons, I decided to make a PrC
based on it:

Edit4: 01/17/2006 - reduced it to 3 levels again. It just gives you a sort of Powerful Build for one weapon.
Edit3: 12/29/2006
Edit2: 12/27/2006
Edit: 12/26/2006
Over-Sized Sword Master
The Over-Sized Sword Master
{table=head]Level|
Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Parry
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Improved Monkey Grab
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Greater Monkey Grab
[/table]

The OSM is basically a warrior specialized in huge weapons, not normally used by creatures of his size.
All bonuses are valid for a weapon the character chooses when taking this class.

Hit Die: d10

Requeriments:
To qualify to become a OSM, a character must fullfil all the folowing criteria.

Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Weapon Focus in the choosen weapon, Power Attack, Monkey Grip, Combat Expertise
Abilities: Strenght 13, Inteligence 13

Class skills
(I'm lazy right now, but it's all the Fighter skills)
Skill points at each level:2+ Int modifier.

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the OSM prestige class.
Weapons and Armor proficiency: The OSM gains no aditional proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Parry: While wielding his weapon of choice, the OSM gains a +2 shield bonus to his AC.
Improved Monkey Grab: The OSM can use versions of his weapon one size categoy bigger than him, taking only a -1 penalty to his attack rolls.
Greater Monkey Grab:The OSM can use versions of his weapon one size categoy bigger than him, taking no penalties to his attack rolls.


Well, there it is. Sorry if the text is confusing or any typos. What you guys think: Too powerful, too weak, any suggestion will be accepted.

[ilovefire]

a human fighter can qualify for this at third level, and take the first level in this class at fourth level. Fix that. otherwise it looks allright.

[Roderick_BR]

Yes, that's exacly what the class is for, so you can get it early. If it sounds too overpowered, I can still change it. Thanks.

[magic8BALL]

I like the idea of a "get in quick, get out quick" PrC, but I dont like how the bonuses negate the prerequisites.

If you have monkey grip, you can already wield a large longsword in 1 hand! Why would i use it in two?

I know this has changed the Class a lot, but I feel a character gets more out of it, as this builds on the prereqs.

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Power Attack, Dodge, Monkey Grip, Weapon Focus (any sword)
Abilities: Strenght 15+, Dexterity 13+

Skills, BAB, Saves as Fighter

lvl Ability
1 Improved Dodge +1
2 Improved Monkey Grip
3 Greater Monkey Grip, Improved Dodge +2

Weapon and Armor Proff.
The OSSM gains no weapon or armor proff's.

Improved Dodge
Since the OSSM does not uses shields, he learns how to improve his defensive maneuvers in battle. The +1 dodge bonus to the AC granted by the Dodge feat is valid for all attacks in a round, instead of only one attacker. An OSSM using a shield loses this benifit. At level 3, the dodge bonus to AC increases to +2.


Improved Monkey Grip
You only take -1 to attack rolls when useing a sword 1 size catagry larger than you. You may also use a sword two sizes larger, but at a -4 penalty.

Greater Monkey Grip
You only take no penalty to attack rolls when useing a sword one size catagry larger than you. You may also use a sword two sizes larger, but at a -2 penalty.

[Roderick_BR]

Thank you 8Ball :) the way you used it works great :D
I admit I didn't get well how the Monkey Grip work in 3.5, a friend explained me, but I think he didn't say it well. Making improved/greater versions works fine :)

[Gralamin]

Allow monkey grip OR powerful build (racial trait of half-giants)

[Fizban]

Why not just ditch monkey grip alltogether and make it as simple as possible:

1st: Big Weapons: the character may wield weapons made for creatures one size larger than himself as normal. Ex: a human could wield an ogre's greatsword in two hands just like a human's greatsword
2nd: Bigger Weapons: as Big Weapons, but up to two sizes larger.
3rd: REALLy Big Weapons: as before, but up to three sizes larger.

Tack on some str prerequisites, (maybe 15, 17, and 19 respectively) to keep some version of realism-ish-ness-notreally.
Or just make them into feats. Monkey grip is overcomplicated anyway, I don't see why you couldn't just take a feat and wield one size larger. With a str prereq, it's still worse than Weapon Specialization, and huge-tastic weapons are so much easier to penalize (cramped spaces? no 20' sword for you!)

[Khantalas]

I actually ditched Monkey Grip altogether and added Powerful Build as a feat. However, it created some confusion when it came to goliath-specific PrCs: dwarves with Powerful Build could easily qualify when there wasn't a racial prerequisite.

[Pegasos989]

Why not just ditch monkey grip alltogether and make it as simple as possible:

1st: Big Weapons: the character may wield weapons made for creatures one size larger than himself as normal. Ex: a human could wield an ogre's greatsword in two hands just like a human's greatsword
2nd: Bigger Weapons: as Big Weapons, but up to two sizes larger.
3rd: REALLy Big Weapons: as before, but up to three sizes larger.

Tack on some str prerequisites, (maybe 15, 17, and 19 respectively) to keep some version of realism-ish-ness-notreally.
Or just make them into feats. Monkey grip is overcomplicated anyway, I don't see why you couldn't just take a feat and wield one size larger. With a str prereq, it's still worse than Weapon Specialization, and huge-tastic weapons are so much easier to penalize (cramped spaces? no 20' sword for you!)

Wtf? Noonnoononononononononononononononono...

Wield 3 categories larger weapons?
"I am enlarged fighter, my greatsword's base damage is 8d6"
"I am enlarged TWF fighter with warmace in each hand, I have 8d6 base damage of each weapon"

[Moribundus]

Wtf? Noonnoononononononononononononononono...

Wield 3 categories larger weapons?
"I am enlarged fighter, my greatsword's base damage is 8d6"
"I am enlarged TWF fighter with warmace in each hand, I have 8d6 base damage of each weapon"

One word:
Exactly.

[Roderick_BR]

Hmm... no, I think Powerful Build is too powerful as a feat. That's why I made a prestige class, even if too small.
I once played a paladin with Monkey Grip with a huge-sized FullBlade. With the penaulties, with a single feat, it become too powerful. I think a 3 level PrC keeps thing a bit more balanced, allowing the character to reduce the penalties.

[jlousivy]

requirements: BAB +5, power attack, strength 15+
skills: same as fighter
HD: D10
saves: good fort, poor will/reflex
lvl 1: weapon focus (weapon you are proficient with)
lvl 2: over-sized weapon(weapon w/ weapon focus)
lvl 3: improved over-sized weapon(weapon w/ weapon focus), 2 handed defence
weapon focus-the feat, this weapon will determine the weapon usable by 'over-sized weapon'

over-sized weapon- allows you to treat your 'favored' weapon as a weapon size one lower with a -4 penalty
ie: you could wield a medium longsword as a small longsword, you could wield a large greatsword as a medium greatsword
improved over-sized weapon- same as over-sized weapon but no penalty
2 handed defence- your weapons are so large that your enemies have a hard time getting past them, +2 shield bonus to AC

[Pegasos989]

Hmm... no, I think Powerful Build is too powerful as a feat. That's why I made a prestige class, even if too small.
I once played a paladin with Monkey Grip with a huge-sized FullBlade. With the penaulties, with a single feat, it become too powerful. I think a 3 level PrC keeps thing a bit more balanced, allowing the character to reduce the penalties.

How did you get huge sized greatsword? Large race? (Because, you are aware that monkey grip and powerful build do not stack, right?

[Roderick_BR]

How did you get huge sized greatsword? Large race? (Because, you are aware that monkey grip and powerful build do not stack, right?
It was a Fullllade. If you get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for Fullblade, you can use it as normal, otherwise, you need to be Large sized to use it as a normal Greatsword. Since I had also Monkey Grab, I used a Fullblade one size bigger, receiving a -2 to attacks.
Don't ask me, my friend made that calcs :smalltongue:

Anyway, if the PrC gets too confusing, we could just use the Fullblade. My idea here is to have others weapons too. I forgot to add to the description, that it's not only for swords.

[The Demented One]

[Scrubbed]

NO!

Now, moving past that...well, to be honest, I myself am not really fond of the ridiculously-huge-weapons style of play, but I won't hold that against you. The improve dodge ability doesn't really fit with the class...that's more something I would give to a Rogue or Swashbucklerish PrC, not a meatshield class. If you want, maybe you could improve on fighting defensively for him, or let him gain a shield bonus when wielding an oversized weapon? Also, expanding it some - to 5 levels, maybe even 10 - would certainly give you more room to develop the concept, which I think the class could use.

[magic8BALL]

Well I see heaps of stuff that over powered, underpowered, and plain broken.

Powerful build is WAY too powerful to be a feat.

Monkey Grip is NOT complicated: You you a weapon 1 size catagry larger than yourself exactly as you would wield it as though it were your size, but you take -2 on attacks. (Human witha Large longsword in one hand, a greataxe in two, a dagger as a light weapon, etc). Be aware that you cannot Monkey Grip in your off hand, including double weapons (but that shouldn't affect this PrC).

Powerful build and Monkey Grip arn't even the same thing! Powerful build considers you one size catagry larger than you actually are if it is benificial to you. Nothing stops a Goliath taking Monkey Grip, as Powerful Build and Monkey Grip DO stack(In fact a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter with Monkey Grip, Exoctic Weapon Proff' Warmace, and a few levels in Exotic Weapon Master deals out the damage like no other). My point is that Powerful Build should not be a substitute for Monkey Grip.

With respect to expanding the class, this is more of a "how do we make the Monkey Grip feat better?" exersise, not "Lets get a halfing weilding a Colosal greataxe".

Sure, change the dodge prereq and Improved dodge ability to a sheild bonus equal to OSSM levels or somthing, that makes heaps of sence.

With respect to jlousivy's responce... over-sized weapon is worse than monkey grip... monkey grip is ANY weapon, and -2, not your -4.

[Fizban]

Wtf? Noonnoononononononononononononononono...

Wield 3 categories larger weapons?
"I am enlarged fighter, my greatsword's base damage is 8d6"
"I am enlarged TWF fighter with warmace in each hand, I have 8d6 base damage of each weapon"
1: I said simple, not balanced
1a: Fine, space it out over 5 or 10 levels, with no other features, now it's baisically just costing you a bunch of feats. Hey look at that. Meh, I don't like crazy big weapons anyway.

So right now, a halfling wielding a longsword sized for a human uses both hands and takes a -2 penalty. With monkey grip, he uses one hand and takes a -2 penalty. Well doesn't that just suck. The rules don't like people using oversized weapons, I say just make your oversized weapon a spec'd out exotic weapon.

Use powerful build as a 1st level only feat and get a fullblade, rediculous damage but it still cost you two feats and it's a very specific weapon in a specific size, you'll have to choose between using the shiney new loot and wasting the feats or selling the loot for less and having your sword custom enchanted. Not to mention that a Fullblade sized for a large character is probably outside the starting gold for a 1st level char where it would be most problematic, and still hard enough to find for the next few levels.

[Roderick_BR]

Okay, I added some changes based on what some people suggested. It's still a "low level" class, but it has better explanation about the feats, a better defense skill, no dodge, and you need to attribute it to only one weapon. I can't add more levels. because frankly I don't know what to add.

[erewhon]

Well I see heaps of stuff that over powered, underpowered, and plain broken.

Powerful build is WAY too powerful to be a feat.

I concur. Even as a racial feature, approach with caution.



Monkey Grip is NOT complicated: You you a weapon 1 size catagry larger than yourself exactly as you would wield it as though it were your size, but you take -2 on attacks. (Human witha Large longsword in one hand, a greataxe in two, a dagger as a light weapon, etc). Be aware that you cannot Monkey Grip in your off hand, including double weapons (but that shouldn't affect this PrC).Also correct!


Powerful build and Monkey Grip arn't even the same thing! Powerful build considers you one size catagry larger than you actually are if it is benificial to you. Yuppers.


Nothing stops a Goliath taking Monkey Grip, as Powerful Build and Monkey Grip DO stack(In fact a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter with Monkey Grip, Exoctic Weapon Proff' Warmace, and a few levels in Exotic Weapon Master deals out the damage like no other). YEEEEHAW! I like the way you think! :) Even though Warmace makes me itch.... Nothing like a 4d6 weapon in BOTH hands. Toss in the right Exotic Wepon Master tricks, and it gets UGLY.


My point is that Powerful Build should not be a substitute for Monkey Grip.Yup! One is a racial feature, and rightly so, the other is a feat.


With respect to expanding the class, this is more of a "how do we make the Monkey Grip feat better?" exersise, not "Lets get a halfing weilding a Colosal greataxe". I happen to think Monkey Grip is just fine, and your example above should be making people soberly reconsider as well. :)


Sure, change the dodge prereq and Improved dodge ability to a sheild bonus equal to OSSM levels or somthing, that makes heaps of sence.Interesting. I hate three-level PrC's in general, so it'd be easy to "stretch" this to five or better ten levels using a shield bonus every other level or the ilk.


With respect to jlousivy's responce... over-sized weapon is worse than monkey grip... monkey grip is ANY weapon, and -2, not your -4.Yeah, a LOT of the Epic feats have been over-run by "feat creep." The ELH needs a serious overhaul.

[Behold_the_Void]

Shouldn't parry be a shield bonus, not an armor bonus to AC?

[ArmorArmadillo]

I feel like this class is too powerful.
The abilities amount to +2 to AC, +1 to Attack, and +1 to Attack; each equivalent to a feat (Parry equivalent to two feats)

Standard Ftr progression would give you one feat every two levels, but this class gives you these feats every level. A small boost in overall power in exchanged for specialization is okay for PrCs, but this is twice as strong as the Base Class, and it's benefits are usable in almost any encounter.

You should consider making this a 5 level PrC and stagger the benefits across levels.

Furthermore, you should reduce Parry to +1, as +2 is a huge bonus for such a class so easy to access.

Finally, on a purely favor side, I don't think you should restrict the class to two-handed weapons, as I think it would be nice for a character to wield a massive sword in his right hand while keeping his left free.

[Roderick_BR]

Armadillo, my Parry feature is equivalent to the Feat "Twin Swords" from Forgotten Realms that gives you +2 to AC when fighting with two weapons.
The others two levels are indeed, +1 and +1, but they are just reducing the penalty of another Feat, that you need to get anyway.
Hmm... I can change it to any weapon.

@Void: You're right, I'll change it soon.

@Erewhon: I"m already looking for ways to give it more levels. I just don't want it to be taken too late, or it'll be a bit useless in higher levels.

[Fizban]

The Twin Sword Style feat is old 3.0 now though, it's been split into Two-Weapon Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense) and the Improved version (apparently not in the SRD...)

[Khantalas]

The Twin Sword Style feat is old 3.0 now though, it's been split into Two-Weapon Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense) and the Improved version (apparently not in the SRD...)

I will correct you. Twin Sword Style has been revised in 3.5, in PGtF. It is now a regional feat, and grants a dodge bonus. Not a shield bonus like Two-Weapon defense.

EDIT: It appears that I was wrong. It grants a shield bonus, but it's greater than what Two-Weapon Defense grants. There is a disadvantage, though. Well, you have to read it to see what it is.

[Fizban]

Bwuh!? That's what I get for not reading all of PGtF. Hey look, two-weapon defense still sucks. I thought they had justified it's suckiness by making it unique, but nope, Twin Sword Style got updated, and Improved buckler defense makes it completely obsolete.

[Roderick_BR]

Hmm... okay, I can add 2 more levels, and use those CombatStyle Feats as class features. Would that work? I'll just add the Combat Expertise as requisite, and bump the Base Attack requisite up a bit.
Actualy, I'll leave the first Feat as a 1st level feat, and make it a requisite for this class, leaving the improved and greater versions as class features. I plan in making others classes that can use it too.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Okay, now the class is even better. 5 levels of pure feats, I'm wondering why anyone would not want to take this class. In fact, even if you didn't use a large weapon, it would still get a full progression of fighter feats. This class needs either some dead levels or more specialized features to really be balanced.

[Roderick_BR]

Thanks. I left the first level blank because I dont know what to put there. Maybe I should let the 3rd level empty? And as I was suggested, it works for one choosen weapon. I need to remember to add it when I do a review.

[erewhon]

Thanks. I left the first level blank because I dont know what to put there. Maybe I should let the 3rd level empty? And as I was suggested, it works for one choosen weapon. I need to remember to add it when I do a review.


Leave the first level stone empty, is my advice. :)

If folks want this level of goodness (and trust me, this is GOOD) then they should be willing to suffer a bit for it.

And, honestly, that's no worse than what Fighters have anyway. :D

Oh, and I'd call it Weapon Overlord or something. Much shorter to say, and doesn't tie the PrC to swords.

[Roderick_BR]

Alright, took off one of those features, and added a skill bonus for balance (they need to balance huge weapons) and one bonus for grapple checks (they get expert in holding large things).
I think that's it for now then.

[magic8BALL]

A nice, all rounded class here.

Suggest give +1 to grapple and balance at lvl 2, and increase to +2 to both at lvl 4? I like the combat tactics... read on that thread for more...

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think this class has shaped up pretty well, although I don't get the grapple bonus: How can someone specializing in huge weapons grapple? (Holding a weapon and a person are amazingly different.)

The only other issue I might have would be that the Monkey Grip tree is just a little too boring. You might consider dropping the 5th level Monkey Grab (You'll always take a -1 penalty with larger weapons, it should never be exactly as easy to use as a normal sized weapon) and replace it with an "Oversized Weapon Trick," wherein you can choose from a list of special abilities making use of your large weaponry.

Oversized Reach (Ex): As a swift action, you can extend your large weapon's reach by 5 feet, although it can no longer attack adjacent opponents. You can switch back as a swift action.

Overpowering Weapon (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit with your large weapon, you increase the extra damage dealt by your strength modifier by an additional multiplier.

[Roderick_BR]

I thought about using reach, but that would let the character a bit powerful, as he would have a lot more critical hits. The grapple bonus, is just to fill up space really. It's more a joke class than a serious one. That's why by the end you have no penalty at all. Like the Tempest is now, I guess.
I'll think about these suggestions.
Thanks :)