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Aard_Rinn
2013-09-15, 03:42 AM
Sorry if I forgot any of the letters - please just assume that the alphabet soup was implied... Trigger warnings for (brief, non-explicit) mention of rape below the jump.

So I've been DMing games occasionally for my school's GSA for a few years now - college level - and I've had a good time of it. Now I'm trying to get a campaign going, but I'm having some issues with one of my players.

R is 38, and a biologically male transgender woman. (I'm 18, btw.) She's been in several of my games, one of my more consistent players, and also one of my more experienced - although she does VtM and Second Edition, and I do 3.5, she's still a big help, if a bit rulesy for my taste.

However, I have an issue with R.

She has a very... particular character, one that I'm not really that comfortable with DMing. She enjoys playing young (14-18) female characters, usually elves or catfolk, who have been enslaved and only recently escaped, but who are still 'broken' from their captivity. She prefers them to have clear signs of their previous status, like collars or brands, and the backstories often have a kind of... rapey subtext, I guess you could call it? I pulled her aside at the first game I DMed with her, and said that that particular aspect of things was a hard limit for me, and I wouldn't DM a rape victim character, and she said that that wasn't her intent, but it's pretty clearly implied in the backstory, although she does usually reign it in.

However, this whole thing makes me really, really uncomfortable. I feel bad, because if R was bio!fem, I don't think I would have an issue with it. But the fact remains that, despite the leotards and skirts she wears, when I look at R I see a balding middle-aged man, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

A big part of this, I feel, is my own personal hang-ups. I've let bio!fem players play characters with back-stories that were far more explicit when it came to sexual abuse - it's never made me feel uncomfortable like this; but I've also never felt uncomfortable with my other trans- players. At the same time, I am DMing for a GSA - I don't want to tell someone, "No, you can't play this character because I am not comfortable with your gender choices," but at the same time, this isn't something I'm going to get used to. I've DMed this character eight or nine times, and it still skives me out.

Also, I feel like the game is being used to deal with some issues that I'm not really comfortable dealing with. The collar gives me very strong bondage overtones, and there is an enforced master-slave element that I'm not sure I can handle, especially when the characters are young girls. At the same time, R is very resistant to suggestions to play a different character - I managed to convince her to play a slave-courtesan, rather than a low-ranked slave, once, but she was irritated by the lack of limitations and controls placed on the character by her owners.

None of my other players have voiced concerns about this to me, but I've only got one player who's played with R and I more than once. I need to know how to handle this - I don't want to have to deal with this character; it makes me uncomfortable in ways that I shouldn't have to feel in what's supposed to be a safe and supportive group, to the point I almost would rather not DM if I have to DM her, but at the same time, I feel like I should also be supportive - it's pretty clear that, whatever the hangups she's got that make her repeat this same character over and over, it's pretty major for R. And I don't want to be excluded from the GSA if everybody feels I'm being transphobic - we had someone coming to the Pride Room last year that we wound up needing a restraining order against because he wouldn't stop shouting transphobic slurs at some of our members, and it's kind of left everyone a bit defensive about that...

Any suggestions?

Exediron
2013-09-15, 04:12 AM
Note: I'm an asexual, not any of the rest - so if you want to ignore this, feel free.

First off, I think one thing should be clear; if an element of a person's character or of the game itself makes any of the players uncomfortable - and that includes you the DM, you're playing too - it doesn't belong in that game. If your player is aware that you are not comfortable with her character and she still insists on playing that character, then I think you are well within your rights to cease playing with this person. If she doesn't respect your feelings enough to avoid something she knows makes you uncomfortable, she doesn't sound like someone you need to play with.

If, however, you haven't explained that this character makes you uncomfortable - if you prefer to sit on your feelings to keep from offending others, and I can understand that - then you need to have a talk with her and let her know how uncomfortable you feel. She may very well not be aware of it. The reason it makes you uncomfortable (and your mention that it is only because of her gender choice) need not come up - it makes you uncomfortable, that's that. If another player came to you and told you that this character made them uncomfortable you, as the DM and moderator of the game, wouldn't hesitate to do something about it - don't treat yourself worse than your players.

I'm afraid that's where my advice has to stop, because I don't actually understand why this specifically is a problem for you - I honestly don't see how it makes a difference who the player is in a situation like this. Would you feel uncomfortable with a straight male playing a young female character with a troubled past? A female playing a young abused male? If the answer to these is also yes, then perhaps you do in fact need to broaden your gaming horizons. I personally feel that no character concepts should be barred to a player simply because their own gender - physical or else - does not align with that concept. If the part that makes you uncomfortable is the (perceived or real) personal significance of this character to your player, then that is another matter entirely, and I can understand better why that would put you off. But that's not what it sounded like from your post.

Savannah
2013-09-15, 04:26 AM
Have any of the characters with more explicit backgrounds been in a group that R has played in? In other words, would she have any reason to believe you're singling her character out because of her? Regardless, I'd approach her outside of the group and explain your discomfort with the character due to the character's background and age, leaving out that R herself has anything to do with it. If R is not aware that you have allowed comparable characters in the past, I'd just leave it out (and don't allow any similar characters by other players in the future). If she is aware of other comparable characters, I'd say that it's finally reached a point where you're just not comfortable with any character with that background (and then follow through and ban them by other players). Either way, the fair solution seems to be to ban all characters with similar backstories, otherwise you are singling R out and she has reason to be unhappy with you.

I don't usually advocate being untruthful to your players, but this really seems to be a situation where skirting around the fact that R herself is a part of the problem would be the most diplomatic solution.

(Disclaimer: I am not trans*, if you're looking for advice from trans* players specifically.)

originalginger
2013-09-15, 03:48 PM
I am prefacing this post with a clarification - I have DMed for a variety of gender identity players with a variety of characters of all gender identities or none, and rarely shy away form heavy or controversial subject matter in my gamers. One of the PCs in my current game is an escaped slave, as a matter of fact.

That said, here is my take:
A middle aged person, male, female, or neither, TG or no, wanting to play a teenage character is a bit strange anyway, but overlookable if the intentions are benign and there is a story reason for it. Adding a seemingly sexual and/or abusive subtext to that character's back story is creepy as hell, and should rightfully be unwelcome in most games, unless it is called for in the setting (which would almost certainly be a setting far too heavy for the vast majority of players, who are there to have fun, not tackle social issues)

Were I DMing this game, the player would be required to make an age-appropriate and story-appropriate character, or be ejected from the game.

As the DM, it is at it's core your game, and while you should be accommodating to players choices in character creation and RP, you have the right to veto characters for any reason or none at your discretion.

Edit - Short version/further clarification:
Teenage character = probably okay if supported by story. Abused character = probably okay if supported by story. The juxtaposition of the two played by a much older player = Would take one hell of a convincing justification story wise, and has high potential for uncomfortable role play situations for the other players, and frankly feels kinda creepy and pervy.

Yuki Akuma
2013-09-15, 06:29 PM
This character concept is incredibly skeevy no matter who is playing it.

I'm seriously surprised you've put up with eight or nine variations on the same concept.

Exediron
2013-09-15, 06:58 PM
A middle aged person, male, female, or neither, TG or no, wanting to play a teenage character is a bit strange anyway...

Why? Because people in role-playing games always play characters that are physically similar to themselves? No wait, that's the opposite of what they usually do. Playing a teenaged character isn't like having a teenaged significant other. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I don't see why it needs story support.

originalginger
2013-09-15, 07:18 PM
Why? Because people in role-playing games always play characters that are physically similar to themselves? No wait, that's the opposite of what they usually do. Playing a teenaged character isn't like having a teenaged significant other. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I don't see why it needs story support.

I didn't say it was wrong in and of itself, only that it was strange.

All characters need story support, every single one, no matter the race, class, or age, and no matter who is playing the character. A player should choose his or her character for a reason and have at least some semblance of a concept, and that reason and concept should align with the setting and tone of the game. If it doesn't, than it is an incomplete character, nothing more than a sheet of paper covered in numerical stats and essentially meaningless words.

A character below standard starting age needs an especially convincing story, since it isn't really normal and generally quite irresponsible to send a kid out onto the battlefield. There are reasons to have a young character, "chosen one plots" are a good example, as is an unwilling soldier thrown into circumstances beyond their control, such as a "city under siege" situation. Both of those examples, and pretty much any other I can think of would be story driven, and require DM approval and careful consideration.

Premier
2013-09-15, 07:29 PM
Honestly, the entire issue is being blown way out of proportion. What 99.9% of all RPG groups would do is the DM would say "Dude, that's some seriously creepy ****, and there's no way I'm allowing underage rape slave victim characters in my game about Conan and Gandalf fighting Dracula. If you have personal issues along those sorts of lines, then I encourage you to talk to a psychiatrist, but I'm categorically not allowing you to ruin my and my players' game sessions by dumping your psychoses on us." (or something of the sort), and that would be the end of that. And 99.9% of DMs would be right, because that's the normal reaction to someone who's trying to turn someone's sword & sorcery RPG sessions into some weird outlet for their personal demons.

Mr Beer
2013-09-15, 07:34 PM
If you don't like the creepy sexual subtext, you're within your rights to veto the character. Stepping away from the whole transgender thing for a moment, a middle aged person is waving their particular fetish in the face of an 18 year old, that's not cool IMO.

IMO the limit on sexuality in tabletop RPGs should roughly be "whatever doesn't gross people out", I think this crosses that line.

I'm a straight male FWIW but if I put this into context, I'm roughly the age of your player. Let's say I was into being dominated by women and my GM is an 18 year girl, I wouldn't roll up a character called "Queening A Plenty" and expect that to fly. Actually I wouldn't do that under any circumstances but I think it's doubly inappropriate here.

Yuki Akuma
2013-09-15, 07:38 PM
a middle aged man (or woman if you prefer)

Don't do this.

Mr Beer
2013-09-15, 07:40 PM
Don't do this.

.............

ok

JusticeZero
2013-09-15, 08:18 PM
It sounds like you are unnerved by the juxtaposition of the S&M elements, abuse, and a young character. Honestly, combining the first two or the first and last creeps me out a bit too. You do have the right to say "Look, that makes me uncomfortable." I mean, seriously, you have multiple COMMON PTSD triggers there. Just say no, you cannot play that sort of character again, and use words like "uncomfortable" and "trigger" in your explanation. Most people with backgrounds similar to a lot of people in the group you are describing should notice anyone trying to avoid those triggers and back you up. You really don't even need to explain your reasons, since a lot of the reasons to object to those things are not explainable in polite company. Though you probably should have spoken up earlier about it, honestly. You do have a right to avoid having people make you uncomfortable in your own freaking game, and there are a lot of people in the world who have extremely good reason to be very much not okay with that concept. You may have already lost players to it, and never been told.

ScionoftheVoid
2013-09-15, 08:26 PM
The weirdest thing about this for me is that you've accepted similar characters from other players, honestly.

I agree that it's probably best to just disallow that kind of backstory in general (preventing similar issues from coming up again and cutting out any singling out of someone), as well as talking to your player in private and apologising but saying that you're not comfortable having rape backstories in your games any more. I'm really not sure if you should bring up the fact that it's her character in particular that have led to that discomfort.

(I, tentatively, identify as a transgender woman myself, for the record.)

Roxxy
2013-09-15, 08:46 PM
I think the first rule of adult themes in RPGs should be that if somebody is uncomfortable with something, cut it out. This is very important. For example, I personally see rape, molestation, and subjecting children to horrid fates as a useful story device for my villains. Many, many players are highly uncomfortable with such themes in their games. If one of them is in my group, I need to exclude those elements from that session, regardless of whether or not I happen to like using them. I would apply this same logic to this situation. Somebody is disturbed by the themes, so they should be excluded.

For context purposes, I'm a young transgendered woman, and I'd be rather uncomfortable with an underaged BDSM themed character, regardless of the age or gender of the person playing that character. I think the fact that it doesn't seem to be condemned is what we get me. I take nasty elements like this further than R in my games, but I paint it in a "the ones responsible for this need to pay" light, not a "this is what I like" light, which is the light she seems to be using.

Aard_Rinn
2013-09-15, 08:50 PM
Just to clarify, there is no explicit mention of rape in this character's backstory. It's more a strong emphasis on master-slave relationships, and then bondage elements like the collar - especially when the character is so young, and the interest is in a "broken" victim, rather than, say, a strong character overcoming a tragic past. But those things tend to imply sexual abuse, at least to me, especially when the character is young and female - no offense to guys, but an abused male slave tends to make me think more rebellious scamp or defiant rebel; an abused female slave makes me think rape victim, although I understand that boys can be raped too.

A big part of my concern is also my GSA. I'm worried about the way other people, R in particular, will view this - I don't think it's appropriate, but at the same time, our GSA can be very hostile if they feel like someone's being attacked for their identity, and we've had serious issues with transphobia recently; I don't want to be ostracized from the group because people who don't play with us decide that I'm being unfair to R because she's trans, even though her character is much different in scope than those I've allowed. I rely on the GSA for support, too, even though I'm not out to them as asexual yet - I'm worried that being thought of as a straight ally makes me more prone to being thought of as biased and an outsider, and R has been in the GSA for almost four years longer than I have... They'd probably support her over me, if it came down to it.

One Step Two
2013-09-15, 09:09 PM
I managed to convince her to play a slave-courtesan, rather than a low-ranked slave, once, but she was irritated by the lack of limitations and controls placed on the character by her owners.

Just to throw my two cents in here, if R is asking you, or other members of your group to play out the master role for their character, then that's certainly crossing a line if you're unwilling in the matter.

kidnicky
2013-09-15, 09:18 PM
Honestly, the entire issue is being blown way out of proportion. What 99.9% of all RPG groups would do is the DM would say "Dude, that's some seriously creepy ****, and there's no way I'm allowing underage rape slave victim characters in my game about Conan and Gandalf fighting Dracula. If you have personal issues along those sorts of lines, then I encourage you to talk to a psychiatrist, but I'm categorically not allowing you to ruin my and my players' game sessions by dumping your psychoses on us." (or something of the sort), and that would be the end of that. And 99.9% of DMs would be right, because that's the normal reaction to someone who's trying to turn someone's sword & sorcery RPG sessions into some weird outlet for their personal demons.

Agreed 100%. Find some other group to play with. I'm killing goblins with swords,not acting out your bizarre perversions.

Mr Beer
2013-09-15, 09:39 PM
A big part of my concern is also my GSA. I'm worried about the way other people, R in particular, will view this - I don't think it's appropriate, but at the same time, our GSA can be very hostile if they feel like someone's being attacked for their identity, and we've had serious issues with transphobia recently; I don't want to be ostracized from the group because people who don't play with us decide that I'm being unfair to R because she's trans, even though her character is much different in scope than those I've allowed. I rely on the GSA for support, too, even though I'm not out to them as asexual yet - I'm worried that being thought of as a straight ally makes me more prone to being thought of as biased and an outsider, and R has been in the GSA for almost four years longer than I have... They'd probably support her over me, if it came down to it.

You may want to talk to the GSA informally first about this if you think it's going to be a problem, but reasonably the transgender thing should not come up at all.

If I was you, I wouldn't be first to mention it at any point. If you say, without prompting "It's not about you/her being TG", that will make people think "It's totally about me/her being TG". I would also take a strong line on any suggestion that this is where you're coming from. Blanket denial, it's not true in any way, there is no truth to that at all, etc.

Bottom line is, you have every right to ban uncomfortable quasi-sexual themes from your game. The reason is simply that it's not appropriate.

Honestly, if you want to give this the right political spin, you should cite your visceral distaste for rape culture/patriarchal oppression/(unwilling) female bondage. This "broken spirit" stuff is rather nasty icing on the cake, the character has not rebelled in any way and is not providing a positive role model for other players.

The other thing you should mention is that you felt bullied into allowing these characters, given R's immediate strong negative reaction to being asked to tone it down. You're 18, she's 38. You've been pushed into this by a person who has leveraged their age advantage over you in order to act out an unpleasant and highly incorrect fantasy.

narelith
2013-09-15, 09:54 PM
It's perfectly reasonable to be put off by this character. That she's transgender doesn't enter into the equation: a character like you've described has to be convincing to work within a game, and it doesn't sound like this character (or the eight or nine iterations thereof) is convincing.

I'll nth the advice that you should talk to your GSA without bringing her gender into the discussion. After the issue is resolved, I think you should figure out why this is a problem with R but there is no problem with other women having more explicit backstories. Is it this backstory in particular? What elements of it? That way in the future, you can have a hard and fast understanding of what you will or won't do.

Mr Beer
2013-09-15, 10:24 PM
The fact that she's on her 9th iteration of this theme is pretty damning as well. If it had been all bluff dwarf fighters/shining paladins/snobby elf mages up to now and she threw in one nervous post-rape furry that's one thing, but if it's every damn time? C'mon.

Rhynn
2013-09-15, 11:31 PM
One's sexuality-related preferences and kinks aren't really something anyone not in a sexual or maybe-eventually-sexual relationship with one should deal with. Basically, R needs to keep it out of the game. If multiple characters fit that type (with clearly sexual subtext), it's obviously the player's kink, and it's really inappropriate to inflict it on strangers. (Or even friends if they're not comfortable.)

Tell R to stop, explain why ("your sexuality doesn't belong in the game and I'm not interested in it"), vet her characters (decline or refuse characters with obviously sexual or sexualized elements, don't just "suggest" a different character), and if none of that works, kick her out (after talking with the other players, I guess). Just, uh, don't quite word it like Premier did. :smallamused: I mean, he's spot on about the idea, but given your situation, that wording would be unnecessarily inflammatory...

It seems really simple to me: trans or not, no player gets to make others uncomfortable by bringing crap into a game that doesn't belong there, like catgirl sex slave characters. That sort of crap is usually the province of cellar-dwelling neckbeards who lack the social acuity to keep it to the appropriate Internet chatrooms. It shouldn't have anything to do with the player: I'd be creeped out by that kind of character from middle-aged men or young women (or that's what they said, I wouldn't know), and actually have been... (And somewhat worse.)

Whoever you talk to first (and second, and last, etc.) make sure you make clear what the issue is: "So R keeps creating the same traumatized bondage/domination teenage girl sex slave character in my games, and it's making me uncomfortable, because I don't think that sort of sexualized content belongs in the games. I would prefer if she stopped." Don't speculate about R's reasons, don't get personal stick to the offensive behavior: the characters.

Mastikator
2013-09-15, 11:38 PM
You're not in the wrong to be uncomfortable with rape and slavery. And you're not in the wrong to be peeved with a player that has 9 characters that are virtually the same.

If you don't want to mention the former then talk about the latter. Ask for more range. "Lets try something different today". I think the DM has the right to make such a demand on a player, even if it wasn't a theme you were uncomfortable with.

Honest Tiefling
2013-09-15, 11:44 PM
I don't want to be ostracized from the group because people who don't play with us decide that I'm being unfair to R because she's trans, even though her character is much different in scope than those I've allowed.

Pardon me for assuming, but is the reason you allowed other sexual abuse victims is because the story was presumably more focused on overcoming the trauma and becoming stronger? Because I would be immensely uncomfortable with R's character concept, because its ah...Well, its basically sexualizing rape. So I would also agree that the person is bringing kinks to what I assume is NOT an orgy or erotic gaming night, but also doing so in a way that would likely really creep out anyone who had that sort of trigger.

I guess this goes to show that women can be neckbeards as well.

TaiLiu
2013-09-16, 12:22 AM
.............

ok
If the ellipses represent confusion, Yuki Akuma was stating that it's rude to call a woman a man.

Mr Beer
2013-09-16, 12:24 AM
If the ellipses represent confusion, Yuki Akuma was stating that it's rude to call a woman a man.

The ellipses represent conforming to the 10 character limit.

TaiLiu
2013-09-16, 12:25 AM
The ellipses represent conforming to the 10 character limit.
Ah! My apologises, then.

originalginger
2013-09-16, 12:37 AM
Giving R the benefit of the doubt, maybe she's interested in a character arc centered around a someone recovering from personal trauma...

Even if that were the case, there are appropriate an inappropriate ways to approach that idea. Escaped slave fleeing a racist nation, former prisoner of war dealing with post traumatic stress from terrible torture, once respected noble framed for horrible crimes and forced into exile, I have all of those in my current campaign. The difference is the game is held in private among close friends, not at a college in what I take to be a "sign-up-to-play" situation, and the setting and characters were developed by the group together to make a cohesive party with compatible concepts that everyone is comfortable with and approves of.

Heavy themes definitely have a place in RPGs, but these things must be approached with care and implemented with mutual respect for each other's feelings. R clearly isn't displaying due care when dealing with such a highly sensitive topic, and seems to be disregarding the feelings of at least one member of the group.

Vitruviansquid
2013-09-16, 12:39 AM
If you hadn't mentioned the restraining order incident, I would've said something like, "Look, you and R are probably both reasonable people who want everyone to get along and have fun. Why not go to R privately and tell her you don't feel comfortable with her character, and here's why. You don't have to be an uncompromising, ironclad jerk about it. Make sure R knows you want to be accommodating and supportive, and you're certainly not out to attack her identity."

But since you mentioned that the GSA can be hostile and has been on edge due to recent harassment, I'm not going to offer that advice because I don't think it's still particularly applicable. :|

The Fury
2013-09-16, 12:45 AM
Even if that were the case, there are appropriate an inappropriate ways to approach that idea. Escaped slave fleeing a racist nation, former prisoner of war dealing with post traumatic stress from terrible torture, once respected noble framed for horrible crimes and forced into exile, I have all of those in my current campaign. The difference is the game is held in private among close friends, not at a college in what I take to be a "sign-up-to-play" situation, and the setting and characters were developed by the group together to make a cohesive party with compatible concepts that everyone is comfortable with and approves of.

Heavy themes definitely have a place in RPGs, but these things must be approached with care and implemented with mutual respect for each other's feelings. R clearly isn't displaying due care when dealing with such a highly sensitive topic, and seems to be disregarding the feelings of at least one member of the group.

You're absolutely right. R should definitely be approaching this far more conscientiously than she is. I only offered that as a reason because I like to think that R's not being creepy on purpose.

I deleted my message after reading something from the OP that indicated my hypothesis was wrong and unhelpful.

originalginger
2013-09-16, 12:56 AM
You're absolutely right. R should definitely be approaching this far more conscientiously than she is. I only offered that as a reason because I like to think that R's not being creepy on purpose.

I deleted my message after reading something from the OP that indicated my hypothesis was wrong and unhelpful.

I see. To be clear on my end, I wasn't meaning my reply to seem adversarial in any way, only expanding on what you said with my own thoughts. Honestly, despite what I might have said in this thread at various points, I would probably allow the character in my own group, and can imagine a number of RP opportunities that could arise. I also know that such a character would rightly be inappropriate for almost every group, and really, speculation on motivation aside, R should really know it too if she is as experienced with gaming as the OP implied.

The Fury
2013-09-16, 01:02 AM
I see. To be clear on my end, I wasn't meaning my reply to seem adversarial in any way, only expanding on what you said with my own thoughts. Honestly, despite what I might have said in this thread at various points, I would probably allow the character in my own group, and can imagine a number of RP opportunities that could arise. I also know that such a character would rightly be inappropriate for almost every group, and really, speculation on motivation aside, R should really know it too if she is as experienced with gaming as the OP implied.

Nor did I interpret it as adversarial. I only noticed that you replied to my message after I had deleted it. I figured I at least owed you an explanation as to why I did it.
I assure you, I wasn't offended by anything you said; I only noticed replies from the original poster that seemed to indicate what I said wouldn't have helped.

Roland St. Jude
2013-09-16, 01:10 AM
Sheriff: Locked for review.