Morale

[Yora]

I think I want the old morale system back, but in a form that works along the lines of the d20 rules.

What do you think would be a good way to do it?

One way would be a Will save against fear. But that would only account for a panicked rout, I think the original morale system in AD&D was also meant to stand for calling a retreat if the monsters realized the fight was going bad for them.

[Spuddles]

How's morale work?

[Yora]

Basically, when the enemies have good reason to consider abandoning the fight, like 25% of them dead, 50% of them dead, or their leader killed, the GM rolls 2d10. If the number is larger than the morale score of the enemy, they try to escape from the fight.

[Killer Angel]

I think I want the old morale system back, but in a form that works along the lines of the d20 rules.

What do you think would be a good way to do it?

One way would be a Will save against fear. But that would only account for a panicked rout, I think the original morale system in AD&D was also meant to stand for calling a retreat if the monsters realized the fight was going bad for them.

IMO, to roll for morale, works for tabletop games. In D&D, it's a DM's call: it happens that enemies try to escape / retreat, when the tide of the fight is turning against them, without the need to roll for anything.

[Yora]

I like to have some degree of randomness to maintain the notion that the players are not handed success on a plate.
Having the PCs in a tough fight and then just suddenly saying "the monsters turn around and run away" would probably feel cheap for the players when done more than a handful of times. It's not a hard won victory if you can expect the GM to end the fight for you.

Deciting when there is a good time for a morale check is certainly something that can be decited by the GM depending in the situation, and even in AD&D, there was just a short list of guidelines what those situations might be.
But if the enemy actually does flee or surrender should have a random element to it that is (nominally) out of the GMs arbitrary descision. (You can always fudge it, of course, but the players should expect that the dice make the descision at least most of the time.)

[Firechanter]

I'd love to have a functioning Morale mechanic in the game; I've looked for one and tried to write one myself, but never came up with anything satisfactory.

However, in the last game I participated in, when we killed the leader of a hobgoblin gang, I asked the DM if he'd check for morale on the rest of the gang. He did roll something, probably Will saves -- result was that one kept fighting, one routed (e: and was killed by the AoO), and two lost a round trying to figure out whether they should fight or break. I liked his call, but forgot to ask whether he was actually making proper rolls after a certain mechanic.

Personally, as a GM, I settled on just winging it, but just for the lack of a working rule.

[Cicciograna]

Have you checked Heroes of Battle? There are rules to handle morale and rallying checks. I've never used them so I can't give account on their usefulness, but they look very similar to what you described.

[Yora]

I think the most important thing would be to make the system simple so it can be applied on the fly without having to calculate a complex morale score for the enemies.

The main question is probably if morale should be rolled for a group or for each enemy individually. Another option might be to sometimes split the enemies into two or more groups. For example a group of 2 ogres and 7 goblins. The ogres are unlikely to flee just because the goblins are running away.

Let's say 4 of the goblins are killed and both the goblins and the ogres make a morale check each. The ogres having a higher morale make the check, while the goblins fail and run. This would cause the ogres to make a second morale check since their allies abandoned them.

Have you checked Heroes of Battle? There are rules to handle morale and rallying checks. I've never used them so I can't give account on their usefulness, but they look very similar to what you described.
I found this one, not sure if that's the one from HoB:

When a creature loses 50% of its hit points or 50% of its allies are dead, it has to make a DC 20 Will save against fear.
On a failed save, the creatures fear category increases by one degree from normal to shaken, from shaken to frightened, or from frightened to panicked.

I guess that would work. Though I would also apply +/- 2 or 4 circumstance modifiers to the roll depending on the situation. Like +2 when the enemies outnumber the PCs 2 to 1 or +4 when the enemies defend their home.

[Firechanter]

I'm not really happy with the HoB morale checks. They may be better than nothing, though.

Let me recap the basics:

* PCs don't roll Morale checks. The players decide when to fight or retreat.
* A creature has to make a morale check = Fear Save DC 20, when it falls below 50% HP, OR when its unit has suffered 50% casualties.
[Note how DC20 is nigh-impossible to make for lowlevel creatures/NPCs.]
* failing a morale check the first time makes you Shaken, the second time Frightened (so you already try to flee), if you fail a third check you become Panicked.
* there are additional modifiers to your Save bonus, such as if one side outnumbers the other; if the unit/creature is fatigued or exhausted etc.

The opposite of the Morale check is the Rally check, which is essentially a modified CHA check, also against rather high DCs (20-30); for example you can remove the Shaken condition from all who can hear you with a DC20 check.

--

Evaluation:
As I see it, it's very easy to fail a Morale check and very hard to make a Rally check, so if you use this in day-to-day adventuring, your Encounters have just become 50% easier (since PCs are not subject to Morale).

On the other hand, what's missing is a trigger "Leader has fallen" - that should pretty much always trigger a Morale check.

Some of the modifiers don't make a lot of sense; for example they only account for numerical superiority or inferiority, so a party of four level 11 PCs might wade through enemy lowlevel armies like reapers during harvest, apparently untouchable, and those NPC soldiers would still get a huge bonus to their morale checks even after they've witnessed that party wiping out half of their unit without breaking a sweat.

--

What I'd do differently:

Triggering circumstances:
* Leader has fallen, is captured or fleeing
* Sudden losses (say, 25% in a single round)
* Heavy losses (50% total)
* Allies are fleeing

Also, lower the base difficulty (not sure to what DC, maybe 10?), factor in more modifiers.

For example,
* Leader still present and inspiring his troops
* We can't hurt them! - cancels numerical superiority bonus and incurs a penalty
* They can't hurt us! - the opposite.
* also, each of the Trigger conditions incurs a separate and stacking penalty.

Thoughts?

[Zombimode]

I think I want the old morale system back, but in a form that works along the lines of the d20 rules.

What do you think would be a good way to do it?

One way would be a Will save against fear. But that would only account for a panicked rout, I think the original morale system in AD&D was also meant to stand for calling a retreat if the monsters realized the fight was going bad for them.

I liked the fact, that morale rules where in AD&D. It help to shape my outlook as a DM to play NPCs/monsters as being with a sense of self-preservation.
But even having played and run 2nd ed for extensively for 6-7 years, I have only rarely actually used the morale rules, even though I always included a line about morale checks in my encounter notes.

Now, after three years after making the switch to 3.5 I still have not missed a morale stat. Maybe its a function of experience but I think I can judge pretty good when it is time to flee/back down/surrender for the NPCs/monsters.
I get what you're saying that player may feel getting a cheap victory if there is no roll involved, but in my experience, if your decisions on the enemies morale is reasonable, most players won't feel that way. They may even find your world, adventure and NPCs more compelling because of it.

I think that a simple roll AD&D style might be a bit to simple and could produce results that are contrary to what you had in mind for the NPCs/monsters in question (the might be the reason, why I rarely used the system).
Bandits/Robbers typically don't want to fight at all (they just want your stuff) and thus have a rather different fighting/fleeing behavior than bully type who actually like to fight, but don't want an actually challenging fight, and both are radically different to a warband that actively wants to hurt and kill you.
Maybe you can devise a system to accommodate all of these and many more, but I personally find it easier to make a judgment call in the moment that takes all those fiddly motivations and outlooks into consideration.

[Amphetryon]

<Large block of text regarding Morale rules>

Thoughts?

My first thought is that those percentages you gave are the most fiddly bits; 25% of a large force seems like it should have a different effect on Morale than "4 Hobgoblins confront the PCs and Lidda dispatches one with a lucky crit," for example.

[Yora]

I think the trigger conditions should be left largely undefined and mostly to the GM to be based on the specific circumstances of the fight. 50% losses, 75% losses, and death of the leader or most powerful creature of the group would make good guidelines for reference, but in the end it should probably be a GM descision.
Tactical retreats would be an entirely different thing and be a conscious tactical descision of the enemy leader. The GM can decide to do this at any point it seems to be a good idea for the enemies.

3.5e does have a kind of morale mechanic with the frightened and panicked conditions, but those have always seemed to be unneccessarily overly complicated. Checking for getting shakened first and then checking again for frightened seems to be more dice rolling and bookkeeping that I want to.

The DC 20 will saves really only makes sense if you are going to have to failed saves. The average group of goblins, orcs, and even ogres will fail that save 95% of the time. But DC 10 gets too easy pretty soon.
One alternative for a single check would be DC 10 + average party level. That will still lead to lots of retreats, but after all the entire point is that enemies don't want to die and will run away when victory seems impossible and death guaranteed. There shouldn't be anything wrong with the majority of fights ending with a fleeing enemy.

[Firechanter]

@Amph: yeah, that's certainly true.

@Yora: it would be useful to have at least some _guidelines_ for trigger conditions, but you have a point, there are probably many factors that are impossible to capture in hard and fast rules, so you always need some DM fiat.


3.5e does have a kind of morale mechanic with the frightened and panicked conditions, but those have always seemed to be unneccessarily overly complicated.

The Morale checks from HoB aside, I'm not aware of any nonmagical way to actually inflict those conditions on enemies, except for highly specific builds as the Fearsome Samurai. For everyone else, using Intimidate to demoralize an opponent only causes Shaken, costs an Action and does not stack.

As for the Save DC, somehow factoring in the relative levels would surely be a good idea. Also, keep stacking penalties in mind.

Let's have a look at a fine example of morale in combat:

Charge of the Rohirrim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdojmRR9r0)

1st minute: sheer number of enemies causes Rohirrim to become Shaken. Orcs briefly become Shaken because of enemies in their flank, but are immediately rallied by their leader and are Steady.
2nd minute: Pep talk by the King. Rohirrim are Rallied, recover from Shaken, back to Steady.
2:10-2:20: Another Rally. Cry Havoc! Rohirrim now Eager (Heartened).
2:30: Bards start their Inspire Courage. :smallbiggrin:
3:00: Orcs still Steady, archers fire volleys. Minor losses fail to impress Rohirrim. No morale change.
3:30: Orcs realize their impending doom. Become Shaken, even Wavering before the first blow is struck.
3:45: the Charge connects. Sudden losses. Orcs botch their second Morale check, immediately become Frightened / Broken and are now Routing. (Rohirrim use their Knight-Protector Supreme Cleave to plough through enemy ranks. :smallwink: )

(You may have noticed that I am using the morale conditions of the Total War series. Easily the best implementation of morale I've seen in a game.)

[Killer Angel]

I like to have some degree of randomness to maintain the notion that the players are not handed success on a plate.
Having the PCs in a tough fight and then just suddenly saying "the monsters turn around and run away" would probably feel cheap for the players when done more than a handful of times. It's not a hard won victory if you can expect the GM to end the fight for you.

I'm not suggesting anything of this.
I don't think an enemy will run away if the odds of fight are still balanced, and I'm not saying that a DM should have the monsters run away before Killing some PCs.

But if the Group faces a random encounter with 4 demons and butchers 3 of them without breaking a sweat, i don't need any roll for the fourth to escape.

If the group makes a surprise attack agains an orcish garrison, and more than half of the orcs are dead and the Group is still in good conditions, the orcs still alive will try to run away, to regroup and fight another day... even if the commander was ordered to resist 'til the last one, i can see the commander and some guards fighting again, while a bunch of orcs will escape.


I think the trigger conditions should be left largely undefined and mostly to the GM to be based on the specific circumstances of the fight. 50% losses, 75% losses, and death of the leader or most powerful creature of the group would make good guidelines for reference, but in the end it should probably be a GM descision.
Tactical retreats would be an entirely different thing and be a conscious tactical descision of the enemy leader. The GM can decide to do this at any point it seems to be a good idea for the enemies.

Precisely.

[Jon_Dahl]

I have this:

Morale check is always a DC 15 Will save. If the check fails, the entire unit scatters and routs, or optionally surrenders if fleeing seems futile. Successful check means that their resolve is not shaken and they fight to the death. Each unit only gets one morale check per fight.

Units with low morale:
- Roll if the fight is going poorly and the leader is killed
- Roll if half of the unit is lost and the majority of opponents are still fighting
- Roll if the fight is going poorly and quarter is offered

Average units:
- Roll if the fight is going poorly, half of the unit is lost and the leader is killed
- Roll if 3/4 of the unit is lost and more than half of opponents are still fighting
- Roll if the fight is going poorly, half of the unit is lost and quarter is offered

Elite units:
- Roll in hopeless situations
- Roll if 3/4 of the unit is lost, more than half of opponents are still fighting and quarter is offered

Note: Units with no leaders automatically qualify for the "the leader is killed" clause. Therefore designated leaders make the unit stronger when it comes to morale.

[Thrudd]

I fall in the camp of wanting more randomness, with the DM acting as much of an impartial referee as possible. Play monsters and NPC sensibly, they will use smart tactics when it is appropriate, but I like having the dice tell us what happens whenever possible.

I would import the 1e/OSRIC morale table pretty much as-is, in fact this is what I plan to do for my own setting. It is all in 5% increments, so super easy to convert into d20 modifiers.

Base morale for most monsters is 50% (DC 11), plus 5% (-1 DC or +1 to the roll) per HD.
Morale checks are made when the DM deems it appropriate, such as the fight is obviously being lost, leader is killed, etc, but never more than twice in a single battle as a general guideline. If a monster/NPC passes two morale checks, it will not be shaken.

Per friend killed, surrendered or fled +5% (+1 DC)
Own side taken 25% casualties +5% (+1)
Numerical inferiority +10% (+2)
Own side taken 50% casualties +15% (+3)
Own side greatly outnumbered (2-1 or more) +20% (+4)
Own leader hors de combat +25% (+5)
Per foe killed, surrendered or fled -5% (-1)
Own side inflicted 25% casualties -5% (-1)
Numerical superiority -10% (-2)
Own side inflicted 50% casualties -15% (-3)

The DM can add additional modifiers for various circumstances and personalities of monsters, of course.

I the morale check fails by 25% or less, the monsters make a fighting retreat. If it fails by 26-50%, the monsters are routed and flee. Fail by more than 50%, and they surrender. Of course, a monster's intelligence is taken into account with this guideline, so a creature that knows it can't escape will not try to flee and might surrender instead.

converting the base morale to d20, the +1 per HD can either be added to the roll, or subtracted from the DC. The other modifiers are all added or subtracted from the DC exactly as shown. Fail the roll by 1-5 and it is a figthting retreat, 6-10: flee, 11+: surrender.

I don't like using the will save, because I don't feel like the wisdom scores of most monsters really reflects their personality as combatants. If anything, in a lot of cases lower wisdom means they don't have enough sense to know when to stop fighting, it shouldn't mean they run away more often. Orcs, for instance. They have -2 on their will saves, while kobolds and goblins have no modifier. I know orcs will run away from a strong opponent, are not well orgnaized, and can be intimidated by strength, but I wouldn't say they are more likely to run away than their smaller monster cousins. Ogres also have normal will saves, no modifier. So they will run away as often as goblins will? If we are going to make such modifications to the morale/will save so as to override whatever the monster's wisdom bonus or penalty is, then why even bother calling it a will save? I will just call it a morale check, and make special modification if a monster is particularly cowardly or brave beyond what is described by their HD. I will ditch the statuses of "shaken", "frightened", "stirred" for these purposes, it is just too much to keep track of. A one time check and pass/fail with immediate result is simpler. The morale modifiers may be a little fiddly, but they are fairly simple and only apply to one roll.
For large combats, I would roll for units of participants rather than individually. That would have to be another DM decision, depending on how many dice they want to roll. Or make one roll, and apply it to every creature but adjust for varying HD so that the same roll might cause goblins to run away, but not an ogre, for example. This I haven't decided yet, will have to see how fatiguing/time consuming it is. I think it should be less so than in 1e with the percentiles, since there is slightly less math to do.

I would like to find a way to implement the Intimidate skill to force a morale check or at least modify it. I would make it a swift action, rather than a standard action, so it can be done on the same round as an attack. However, I would only allow this to happen once per combat (per fighter): either you are successfull at initimidating the enemy or you aren't, there's no retries (first impressions are everything). The skill check could be modified according to how many opponents the player has dropped so far, and maybe a little extra if they have dealt a critical hit. I don't know what the base DC should be, 20 probably. A success could either force creatures to make a morale check if the DM deems it appropriate, or give a +5 to their morale DC on the next check. I am not sure if this should be limited to primary combat classes only...at first I think so, but then I can definately see a wizard or other caster throwing a big spell that blows some people up, saying something scary, and causing everyone to run away. So not decided on that yet.

[Soupz]

I've used morale a bit, as is, directly from Advanced D&D. Quoted from the Advanced D&D DM's Manual:


The first (and best) way to handle morale is to determine it without rolling any dice or consulting any tables. This gives the biggest range of choices and prevents illogical things from happening. To decide what a creature does, think about its goals and reasons for fighting.


First, do not check morale every round of combat.

So the rules as is say to guess and not to do it all the time. Advanced monsters had morale numbers to roll on a d20 and I just import those (or guess a number based on some close equivalent monster), along with all the other things I miss from the old games, like monster sex habits and prices on harvested organs.