PDA

View Full Version : Optimal sorcerer spell list



ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 05:05 PM
I'm sure somebody must have done a thread like this already, but I did a search and I couldn't find one. So after we all read and cogitated on Logic Ninja's Batman thread, I thought about a similar thread for sorcerers and I realized you could get much more exact about what the most useful sorcerer spell list could be.

So here are the rules:
1. We'll use sorcerer level 20. Yes, there will be many spells you might have picked up along the way then retrained away, but doing a complete level 1 to level 20 guide to sorcerers is ... a bit too much. Also, let's not dip into prestige classes. I know that I personally like to take archmage, make a spell a spell-like ability then swap it out, but let's not include that here.
2. Many of you would legitimately say it entirely depends upon what the other party members are playing. For instance, you the sorcerer don't need to waste a precious 4th level spell slot on say dimensional anchor if you know the party cleric has it memorized. So let's remove this obstacle entirely. You are creating this character without knowledge of the gaming group it will be used in. So you don't know the other character classes, or even how many other players there will be. You might even play this sorcerer solo.
3. I also know that the extra spell feat is the sorcerer's best friend. But let's not use that here either. There are some great feat chains for sorcerers that may not have room for it.

So there you have it, a generic level 20 sorcerer. To review:
Level 0) 9 spells
Level 1) 5 spells
Level 2) 5 spells
Level 3) 4 spells
Level 4) 4 spells
Level 5) 4 spells
Level 6) 3 spells
Level 7) 3 spells
Level 8) 3 spells
Level 9) 3 spells

I'm tempted to provide what I think the list would be to start us off, but I think it would be more fun to sit back and see what other people come up with. Remember that though evocation-damage spells cause many on this list to cringe, you could be playing this character solo so there might not be other party members to take care of the things you normally might have let them do.

***********************************

Alright, I've decided to keep track of our collected wisdom in this 1st post here to make the reading easier for others. Alas, I also think it should be core-only, since keeping track of the best spells in all the other books, even with the Spell Compendium tidying things up, seems to be a mammoth effort.

Core Only (assuming alter self/polymorph/shapechange are prohibited)

Level 0) detect magic, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, detect poison, read
magic, mage hand, ghost sound, arcane mark

Level 1) ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease
ken-do-nim: true strike, protection from evil
Bears with Lasers: enlarge person, silent image

ken-do-nim comment: enlarge person & silent image make good wands

Level 2) glitterdust, scorching ray, resist energy, invisibility
ken-do-nim: false life
Bears with Lasers: mirror image

ken-do-nim comment: mirror image doesn't stack with greater invisibility

Level 3) slow, haste, vampiric touch
ken-do-nim: fly
Bears with Lasers: ray of exhaustion

ken-do-nim comment: I take fly here because I don't have overland flight later. Fly for me wins over
overland flight because you can give it to your allies and it allows you to hover. I admit though that ray of exhausion is an awesome sorcerer spell

Level 4) enervation, greater invisibility, solid fog
ken-do-nim: stoneskin
Bears with Lasers: confusion or fear

Level 5) cloudkill
ken-do-nim: teleport, cone of cold, persistent image,
Bears with Lasers: teleport, overland flight, wall of force
Imperious Leader: teleport, telekinesis, ?
Saph: ? (assuming since you took greater teleport you wouldn't have regular teleport)

ken-do-nim comment: I don't take wall of force here because I take prismatic wall later

Level 6) greater dispel magic
ken-do-nim: greater heroism, analyze dweomer
Bears with Lasers: disintegrate, repulsion

ken-do-nim comment: if you take mind blank at 8th then you don't take greater heroism here

Level 7) finger of death
ken-do-nim: project image, limited wish*
Bears with Lasers: spell turning, ethereal jaunt
Saph: greater teleport, limited wish

Level 8) greater shadow evocation
ken-do-nim: Otto's irresistible dance, prismatic wall
Bears with Lasers: Otto's irresistible dance, mind blank
Saph: maze, prismatic wall

Level 9) shades, time stop, dominate monster

* through limited wish, you've given yourself permanent comprehend languages/darkvision/see invisible/arcane sight/tongues, albeit at an xp cost.

I still want to write up more detail about *why* we've picked these spells and go into the combos (project image + solid fog + cloudkill + cone of cold + persistent image + ...)

Shazzbaa
2006-12-24, 05:54 PM
Ooo, I'll keep an eye on this thread.

As for existing thoughts, TLN gave me some sorcerer advice on around page 6 (EDIT: nope, page 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500&page=7&highlight=batman+wizard) ) of his Batman Wizard guide (I asked about playing a sorc or a wiz for beginners, and he gave me some tips for good spells starting out), and there's some discussion of spells on Shneeky's Sorcerous Primer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18751), but that's mostly talking about prestige classes. That's all I'm really familiar with...

EDIT AGAIN: Yaknow what, here's the relevant quote from the Batman thread:

Yeah, for someone new to arcane casters, go for Sorcerer.

I'd say 1/4 of your spells being damage is actually too many. You really don't need that many. Metamagic feats like Empower and Energy Substitution (and eventually the Archmage's Mastery of Shaping) mean you'll have all the damage you ever need. For example, why get Cone of Cold when you can have an energy sub (acid), empowered Fireball in that fifth level slot?

You *do* need spell versatility. Some group spells, some single-target spells. Unlike a wizard, you shouldn't have Grease, Web, *and* Glitterdust. (Glitterdust is a very good sorc spell, BTW, because it has two functions: blinding, and finding invisible things.)

You'll wand single-target spells, group-affecting spells, etc. If you have Slow, don't get Deep Slumber, go for Hold Person.

Get staple-use once-a-day spells like, say, Rope Trick in a wand (of course, it'll have to be a CL 9 wand, more expensive) if you want other spells in their stead.

Good low-to-mid-level spells for sorcerers:

Level 1:
Grease. Useful for a long time in many situations.
Mage Armor. It's your basic long-lasting protection.
Color Spray: pick this one over Sleep, it stays useful longer.
Ray of Enfeeblement: very useful for a very long time.

Level 2:
Glitterdust: two uses, both good.
Flaming Sphere: for its level, an okay damage spell that can deal its damage every round.
Mirror Image: a defensive spell that remains useful for a long time.
Alter Self if you're not afraid of its cheesiness and looking through the MM (and looking like a Troglodyte for the +6 Natural Armor), or Invisibility.
False Life. Hours/level buff that makes you more survivable.

Level 3:
Dispel Magic: c'mon, what kind fo spellcaster can't dispel magic?
Wind Wall: protection from arrows. Useful for a long time.
Magic Circle against Evil: very useful buff, solid duration, gives bonuses vs. evil *and* suppresses charms and compulsions (i.e. the vast majority of enchantment spells). Cast it on your tank. Cast it on your rogue. Stay near one of'em.
Slow: great anti-group spell
Ray of Exhaustion: very useful in synergy with Ray of Enfeeblement, and with lots of spells/day, you could cast both repeatedly. You're limited by spells known, though, so pick carefully (and swap spells out--i.e. remove Dispel Magic and take Greater Dispel Magic when you get higher level spells, swap some other third-level spell in)
Haste: good group buff.
Fireball: if you're doing damage, this is a staple--but I wouldn't take it.

Level 4:
Dimension Door: skip this in favor of Teleport next level. You can use Teleport as a Dimension Door to Dim-Door somewhere that's in sight, after all.
Fear or Confusion: same purpose. These win fights on their own.
Enervation: great when metamagicked (Split Ray is great here).
Invisibility, Greater: you and the rogue will like this.

Level 5:
Hold Monster: the list has been short of single-target eliminators so far.
Teleport: utility *and* a Dimension Door replacement.
Dominate Person or Feeblemind: Depends on whether there's a lot of humanoids you'd like to dominate, or whether you fight spellcasters a lot.
Wall of Force: useful in many situations.

He later adds:

You're right, Scorching Ray over Flaming Sphere, and Fly *is* important at third level. There's a whole lot of goodies at that level, though.

ilovefire
2006-12-24, 07:11 PM
Okay, first things first: this post will assume all core. Now, the absolute best thing for a sorcerer to do is to take illusion spells. Good in combat and out, you can modify most of them based on your situation. The absolute best spells, of course, are Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, for pure utility: yes, there's a chance of disbelief, but being able to mimic any conjuration or evocation spell under X level opens up a ton of options. Now, I dont' have the time right now to make a definitive list, but I will soon.

Jack_Simth
2006-12-24, 07:30 PM
The planar binding route is similar; the ability to Call up the perfect outsider for the job is kinda sweet.

The polymorph line is similar; the ability to become the perfect critter is kinda sweet.

The catch, of course, being that a Sorcerer can maybe do two of the three... and have little room for other utility spells.

Unless, of course, you let Limited Wish duplicate Psychic Reformation to swap out spells known.....

Saph
2006-12-24, 07:50 PM
Remember that in the "What level do your characters start out at?" poll, 75% picked levels 1-5 and 0% have so far picked 15-20. So I dunno how useful a sorcerer template that starts at level 20 is. Plus, missing out Archmage really takes the fun out of being a high-level sorcerer . . .

Anyway, like the quote in Shazzbaa's post said, go for spells with multiple functions like Glitterdust. Make sure you have an even balance between attack, defence, and utility spells, and get scrolls and items for spells you're only going to want occasionally like Tongues.

Thing is, at level 20, Time Stop, Greater Teleport, Irresistable Dance/Forcecage/Maze/Dominate Monster, and your choice of attack spell can deal with nearly anything in a battle anyway. So I don't know how much use the lower-level spells will be, except for fun and defence.

- Saph

Jimp
2006-12-24, 07:57 PM
Remember that in the "What level do your characters start out at?" poll, 75% picked levels 1-5 and 0% have so far picked 15-20. So I dunno how useful a sorcerer template that starts at level 20 is.

It gives you something to aim for and a plan so you won't end up wasting precious spell selections

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 08:03 PM
Remember that in the "What level do your characters start out at?" poll, 75% picked levels 1-5 and 0% have so far picked 15-20. So I dunno how useful a sorcerer template that starts at level 20 is. Plus, missing out Archmage really takes the fun out of being a high-level sorcerer .

Part of the motivation for this post is that I have a 17th level sorcerer, and we just started using the retraining rules in PHII so I want to map out my spell swap outs so that by level 20 I can reach this list.

And yes, my sorcerer has 2 levels of archmage. It's worth noting that spells like fireball and scorching ray aren't nearly as useful without the archmage energy substitution power because so many things at high levels are fire resistant, not to mention the archmage making spaces power which helps all area of effect spells.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 08:15 PM
Alright, one last rule. We can't use any of the really broken spells that most DMs disallow. Here's the list the Logic Ninja spelled out:

Stinky Cheese: spells that are broken, broken, broken.

Level 2:
-Alter Self: give yourself +6 natural armor, or flight, for 10 min/level with a level 2 spell? Like all the polymorph spells, way too good for its level--not so broken you probably shouldn't use it in a game, though. Combine with the Otherworldly feat for even more cheese.
-Wraithstrike: swift action, make all attacks as touch attacks that round. Ridiculously good for fighter-mages, Power Attack for huge amounts of damage. You can Persist it quite normally in an 8th level slot, or by using various kinds of cheese, and that's when it becomes *completely* broken.

Level 3:
-Shivering Touch (Frostburn): a touch attack, no save, 3d6 dex damage. 3d6! Dex damage! Wanna one-shot a dragon? NOOO problem! Add some kind of reach (Arcane Reach from Archmage, or Reach Spell metamagic) and you can do it from safety. For the love of god, don't resport to this.

Level 4:
-Polymorph: far better than any other spell of its level, and many higher-level spells. The things you can do with this are ridiculous. It's completely broken, so much so WotC has given up on trying to fix it. Just don't use it.
-Celerity (PHB II): this breaks casters worse than they're already broken. As an immediate action casting, gain a standard action, and be dazed on the next round. This means that no matter what, the wizard goes first. Combine with Time Stop to negate the disadvantage of being dazed in combat, or just use it to Teleport out of there or Dimension Door way out of reach.

Level 8:
-Polymorph Any Object: the worst of the lot. Turn yourself into a gold dragon and gain its INT score plus everything else? Come on. Most broken spell in the game.
-Greater Celerity (PHB II): as Celerity, but grants a full-round action.

Level 9:
-Shapechange: CL up to 25 HD monsters. Gain their (Su) special qualities and attacks as well as the (Ex) ones. Completely and utterly ridiculous, as a more powerful Polymorph of course must be. Don't use this.
-Disjunction: both DMs and players avoid it. Use it as a player and you fry the bad guy's loot; use it as a DM and your players lose their magic items and are very upset.
-Gate: so many abuses. So very many. For example, Gate in creatures that can cast Wish as a (Su) ability and make them give you free wishes.

***********

To these I would add ray of dizziness from Spell Compendium. At least the slow spell has a save.

Saph
2006-12-24, 08:17 PM
Part of the motivation for this post is that I have a 17th level sorcerer, and we just started using the retraining rules in PHII so I want to map out my spell swap outs so that by level 20 I can reach this list.

Oh, okay. Well, first question, how high a cheese tolerance does your DM have? As in, how would he react if you took both Shapechange and Time Stop and started using them heavily?

edit: heh, okay, you just answered this one.


And yes, my sorcerer has 2 levels of archmage. It's worth noting that spells like fireball and scorching ray aren't nearly as useful without the archmage energy substitution power because so many things at high levels are fire resistant, not to mention the archmage making spaces power which helps all area of effect spells.

More fun too. Fireballing things all the time is much more interesting if you can choose at every casting between fireball, coldball, acidball, sonicball . . .

- Saph

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 08:32 PM
Alright, so to get the ball rolling, I submit this list.

Spells Known
Level 0) detect magic, message, resistance, ray of frost, detect poison, read
magic, mage hand, ghost sound, arcane mark
Level 1) magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease, protection from evil
Level 2) scorching ray, resist energy, see invisibility, false life, glitterdust
Level 3) slow, haste, fly, vampiric touch
Level 4) stoneskin, wall of fire, greater invisibility, dimensional anchor
Level 5) teleport, cone of cold, improved blink, persistent image
Level 6) greater heroism, imbue familiar with spell ability, analyze dweomer
Level 7) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, project image, limited wish
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Otto's irresistible dance, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Summon Monster IX, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reaving Dispel

Believe me, there were a lot of tough choices there. Like leaving time stop off. But I needed the ability to dispel, yet at 6th level those 3 are all critical. (Analyze dweomer, for those who don't know, can identify cursed items. A must!)

Btw, you use limited wish to give yourself permanent arcane sight, tongues, and comprehend languages. Edit: And when you do so, you use summon monster IX to bring in a lillend that casts harmonic chorus to give another +2 to your caster level.

Turcano
2006-12-24, 08:46 PM
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is not a good spell to learn, as you'd usually only cast it once a day; get that as a scroll instead.

Saph
2006-12-24, 08:53 PM
For the higher levels, I'd go:

Level 7) Greater Teleport, Limited Wish . . . not sure about project image, I'd be tempted to get Finger of Death instead.
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Maze, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Dominate Monster, Reaving Dispel . . . I don't know what Sphere of Ultimate Destruction does, so can't comment on this one.

Dominate Monster is a Will save, Finger of Death is a Fort save, Maze is an Int check . . . that covers a few bases, but you still need something to take out things immune to mind magic or death effects. I don't know if Sphere of Destruction deals with that or not.

I prefer Dominate Monster over Irresistable Dance since it lasts pretty much forever and you get the fun factor of accumulating a zoo of monsters that follow you around and do as you say. There's no reason to take Summon Monster IX, as Dominate does the same job better and clerics and druids can summon anyway.

- Saph

Jack_Simth
2006-12-24, 09:13 PM
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is not a good spell to learn, as you'd usually only cast it once a day; get that as a scroll instead.Nah, just learn Rope Trick - or better, Shades. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is Conjouration(Creation).

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 09:19 PM
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is not a good spell to learn, as you'd usually only cast it once a day; get that as a scroll instead.

Since you cast it every day, the scroll route would be expensive.

Also, it is an excellent retreat spell, so you might use it more than once a day.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 09:20 PM
Nah, just learn Rope Trick - or better, Shades. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion is Conjouration(Creation).

The problem with rope trick at high levels is that enemies can and will find it and enter it. Mordy's mansion is the only foolproof resting spell that I know of. And it does so with style!

ken-do-nim
2006-12-24, 09:31 PM
For the higher levels, I'd go:

Level 7) Greater Teleport, Limited Wish . . . not sure about project image, I'd be tempted to get Finger of Death instead.
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Maze, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Dominate Monster, Reaving Dispel . . . I don't know what Sphere of Ultimate Destruction does, so can't comment on this one.

Dominate Monster is a Will save, Finger of Death is a Fort save, Maze is an Int check . . . that covers a few bases, but you still need something to take out things immune to mind magic or death effects. I don't know if Sphere of Destruction deals with that or not.

I prefer Dominate Monster over Irresistable Dance since it lasts pretty much forever and you get the fun factor of accumulating a zoo of monsters that follow you around and do as you say. There's no reason to take Summon Monster IX, as Dominate does the same job better and clerics and druids can summon anyway.

- Saph

Project image is fantastic. Combine it with greater invisibility and you can project a point into the distance that most cannot see and cast spells from it. Your familiar comes in handy so it can be your real self's eyes and ears.

I prefer Irresistible Dance to maze because it lets you pound on the foe.

Sphere of Destruction allows you to do massive damage per round without casting a new spell. Basically you use up a move action to attack a foe with it. If they fail the fort save they take 40d6, otherwise 5d6. Lasts 1 round/level.

I haven't put a lot of thought into dominate monster, but wouldn't the enemy's magic circle against good suddenly cut off your mind control if they enter it? I can think of a lot of cases where you lose your hordes all at once.

Summon monster IX is a must for sorcerers. Here's a brief rundown of the most useful spells you can cast via it.
Blue slaad - passwall
Lillend - harmonic chorus, healthful rest, undetectable alignment
couatl - all the fun necromancy stuff (ray of clumsiness, enfeeblement, exhaustion, enervation etc. with it first doing assay spell resistance if necessary)
Leonal - heal, fireball, neutralize poison, remove disease, wall of force (at will!), cure critical wounds, etc.
Some other points: summon 2-5 avorals and each can lay on hands for its hits points worth. So if you end up in a party without a cleric, between the avorals and leonal you can be a healing machine, albeit at the cost of your 9th level spells. At least you can do it, though.
Also 2-5 bralanis are useful against iron golems. Each can do a whirlwind blast that cuts through the dr and they can lightning bolt it to slow it.

Turcano
2006-12-24, 10:15 PM
If you really wanted to, you could get MMM as a magic item; an item that casts MMM once a day would set you back 36.4K, while a staff would be slightly cheaper. Shades is a great idea too. In fact, you should seriously consider getting the entire shadow conjuration line. (You could also get shadow evocation if you really wanted to.)

Jack_Simth
2006-12-24, 10:36 PM
The problem with rope trick at high levels is that enemies can and will find it and enter it. Mordy's mansion is the only foolproof resting spell that I know of. And it does so with style!
MMM isn't dispel resistent. And even if they can't get inside, they can still prepare some nasty surprises for you when you get out (the door to a MMM is only invisible, just like the window for a Rope Trick). Granted, the Mansion lets you entertain a lot of guests, and is a bit more stylish, but otherwise? Meh.

Fizban
2006-12-24, 10:47 PM
How to play a sorceror well:

One good will save spell.
One good fort save spell.
One good reflex save spell.
Heighten Metamagic feat.
Make sure that for the rest of your sorceror career, you cast the spell which targets the enemy's weak save.

One good spell with no save.
One good spell with persistant effects, like Evard's Black Tentacles.
Vampiric Touch, because its functionally a healing spell.
Polymorph.
Consider all bases covered.

As you level up, replace your attack spells with higher level spells, and move the lower level slot into something based around utility.
Remember to take generically useful buffs, like polymorph, then cast them on the entire party. Lots of problems can be solved by casting polymorph four times in rapid repetition.
Bloodline feats are not a bad idea, they give you many more spells known, and add flavor to your character.
Keep an eye out for spells which scale on their own better than normal. Evard's Black Tentacles grapple check scales by caster level, for example.

Remember that you get more out of metamagic than a wizard, because you always have it when you need it.
The best sorcerer advice I've ever seen. The only thing that will ever be constant about DnD is combat, and that advice covers everything you'll ever need for combat.

What you do next, is customize. Pick various buffs and utility spells that you like, since it's all you're ever gonna cast that doesn't kill people. Really once you have the baisics down, it's just choosing your style. Buff allies and kill things, summon things and kill things, do random little wizardly effects (rope trick and stuff) and kill things, it all depends on character and equipment, except for the kill stuff spells.

Shazzbaa
2006-12-24, 10:53 PM
Can we also add a rule that when you mention spells that aren't Core, you say what book they're from? Some people *coughmecough* only have easy access to the Core books and the SRD.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 07:31 AM
Can we also add a rule that when you mention spells that aren't Core, you say what book they're from? Some people *coughmecough* only have easy access to the Core books and the SRD.

Although my goal was to come up with one optimal spell list, I could see as many as 4 lists being useful:

1. Core, all spells allowed
2. Core, but cheese spells forbidden
3. Core + Spell Compendium + PHII, all spells allowed
4. Core + Spell Compendium + PHII, cheese spells forbidden

There are also other spells in the environment books, but I don't own any of those either. :-) All the non PH spells I've used so far have been in the Spell Compendium. I have PHII but it's still new for me.

Obviously it makes a big difference whether you allow the polymorph line of spells. With shapechange, you never need healing again, for instance.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 07:34 AM
MMM isn't dispel resistent. And even if they can't get inside, they can still prepare some nasty surprises for you when you get out (the door to a MMM is only invisible, just like the window for a Rope Trick). Granted, the Mansion lets you entertain a lot of guests, and is a bit more stylish, but otherwise? Meh.

I wonder what happens if MMM is dispelled. Hadn't thought of that. I guess the characters all come tumbling out.

As for setting a nasty trap for you when you come out of the Mansion, we could start a whole other thread on strategies for dealing with that. Summoning a monster to go first, for example, is one.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 08:01 AM
Alright, so using the advice of
(a) shades can substitute for a number of spells like Mordenkainen’s mansion
(b) having one spell that tests each type of save
(c) one good spell with no save
(d) one good spell with persistent effects

We can tweak our list as follows:

Spells Known
Level 0) detect magic, message, resistance, ray of frost, detect poison, read
magic, mage hand, ghost sound, arcane mark
Level 1) magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease, protection from evil
Level 2) scorching ray, resist energy, see invisibility, false life, glitterdust
Level 3) slow, haste, fly, vampiric touch
Level 4) stoneskin, wall of fire, greater invisibility, dimensional anchor
Level 5) teleport, cone of cold, improved blink, persistent image
Level 6) greater heroism, imbue familiar with spell ability, analyze dweomer
Level 7) anti-magic ray, project image, limited wish
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Otto's irresistible dance, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Shades, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reaving Dispel

Notes;
1. Evard’s Tentacles is a fantastic spell, but by level 20 you will probably have swapped it out. The enormous creatures you face at that level will make their grapple checks.
2. I had an earlier thread asking about the best spell to ready an action and interrupt another caster with. Anti-magic ray is it, and it’s nasty! I’m tempted to put that spell into the utter cheese category, because essentially with that spell battles between casters will come down to initiative. At least if you’ve got improved blink on beforehand the enemy has a 50% miss chance.
3. Fortitude save spell: Sphere of Destruction. Will save spell: Greater shadow evocation (force cage, usually). Reflex save spell: cone of cold, though it’s only 5th. All saves: prismatic wall.
4. Good spell with no save: Otto’s dance
5. Spells with persistent effects: persistent image, greater shadow evocation, shades, Sphere of Destruction

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-25, 08:03 AM
Here goes.

Core-Only spell list, at level 20 (i.e. now-useless spells like Sleep have been switched out):

1) Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Grease, Enlarge Person, Silent Image
2) Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Resist Energy (or Alter Self if you don't mind it)
3) Haste, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Vampiric Touch
4) Confusion or Fear, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Enervation (avoiding Polymorph, cheesy)
5) Teleport, Cloudkill, Overland Flight, Wall of Force
6) Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Repulsion
7) Spell Turning, Finger of Death, Ethereal Jaunt
8) Irresistible Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Mind Blank
9) Dominate Monster, Time Stop, Shades (avoiding Disjunction, Shapechange, too cheesy)

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 08:04 AM
I'd also like to point out that limited wish can really save your hide sometimes. Need to slow the enemy down? Use it to create acid fog. Improved blink can save you from grapples, but if you don't have it on beforehand or you are dimensionally anchored, you can cast freedom of movement via limited wish. You can also raise dead with it.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 08:21 AM
Here goes.

Core-Only spell list, at level 20 (i.e. now-useless spells like Sleep have been switched out):

1) Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Grease, Enlarge Person, Silent Image
2) Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Resist Energy (or Alter Self if you don't mind it)
3) Haste, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Vampiric Touch
4) Confusion or Fear, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Enervation (avoiding Polymorph, cheesy)
5) Teleport, Cloudkill, Overland Flight, Wall of Force
6) Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Repulsion
7) Spell Turning, Finger of Death, Ethereal Jaunt
8) Irresistible Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Mind Blank
9) Dominate Monster, Time Stop, Shades (avoiding Disjunction, Shapechange, too cheesy)

The use of mind blank brings up a very good question. Obviously total mental resistance is sweet. No one can do Otto's dance to you, for example. However, it then prohibits you from benefitting from greater heroism, or bardic effects if you happen to travel with one. In the end I decided to leave mind blank out because I felt greater heroism was too important. That +4 morale bonus to hit makes your ray and touch spells more likely to hit. That +4 morale bonus to saves shores up your weak fort & reflex saves. Those temporary hit points help too. Plus, will saves are already your strong save.

Pegasos989
2006-12-25, 08:35 AM
The use of mind blank brings up a very good question. Obviously total mental resistance is sweet. No one can do Otto's dance to you, for example. However, it then prohibits you from benefitting from greater heroism, or bardic effects if you happen to travel with one. In the end I decided to leave mind blank out because I felt greater heroism was too important. That +4 morale bonus to hit makes your ray and touch spells more likely to hit. That +4 morale bonus to saves shores up your weak fort & reflex saves. Those temporary hit points help too. Plus, will saves are already your strong save.

None of those help if you get dominated and use that heroism to attack your allies. ;)

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-25, 08:36 AM
Mind Blank is more for your allies, but it's really worth using it on yourself, too, in many cases.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 09:03 AM
None of those help if you get dominated and use that heroism to attack your allies. ;)

Yeah but you're still having fun and it's all about fun, right?

Seriously though, that's why protection from evil is on the 1st level spell list. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it prevents domination.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-25, 09:05 AM
It suppresses it while Prot. from Evil is on you.

Domination is days/level, so if you get told to, say, "kill your friends", you will start trying once Protection from Evil wears off.

Doc_Outlands
2006-12-25, 09:32 AM
I, for one, would love to see the Sorcerer list done by level, showing original and replacement spells as well.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 09:38 AM
It suppresses it while Prot. from Evil is on you.

Domination is days/level, so if you get told to, say, "kill your friends", you will start trying once Protection from Evil wears off.

Okay, I can work with that. So you've given yourself permanent arcane sight by this point, and you see an aura on yourself of the enchantment school that you know you didn't put there. Gasping in horror, you cast analyze dweomer and examine yourself and realize you have a suppressed dominate spell active. Next you cast reaving dispel on yourself to get it off. What's so neat about reaving dispel is that you can put the spells back on that you want to keep. So if you dispel your own permanent arcane sight you just reave it, essentially not dispelling it. Okay, okay, in core only you don't have reaving dispel. Um, is there a spell out there that specifically cancels enchantments, like a dispel enchantment? Or when you cast say greater dispel magic on yourself, can you choose not to remove the spells you want to keep?

Saph
2006-12-25, 10:08 AM
Okay, okay, in core only you don't have reaving dispel. Um, is there a spell out there that specifically cancels enchantments, like a dispel enchantment?

Yup, Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm).

You probably won't need it all that often, (unless you go up against non-blaster enemy casters a lot) so you could just keep a scroll of it lying around. But if you don't have a cleric or paladin in the party, it might be worth taking it in place of Cone of Cold or something.

- Saph

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 10:23 AM
Yup, Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm).

You probably won't need it all that often, (unless you go up against non-blaster enemy casters a lot) so you could just keep a scroll of it lying around. But if you don't have a cleric or paladin in the party, it might be worth taking it in place of Cone of Cold or something.

- Saph

Ah, excellent! Yes a scroll sounds right, or you could use limited wish if you didn't have one handy.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 10:30 AM
Okay, time to tweak the non-core spell list based on the following facts:
1. You can make see invisible permanent
2. Anti-magic ray makes dimensional anchor not as important

Spells Known
Level 0) detect magic, message, resistance, ray of frost, detect poison, read
magic, mage hand, ghost sound, arcane mark
Level 1) true strike, ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease, protection from evil
Level 2) scorching ray, resist energy, invisibility, false life, glitterdust
Level 3) slow, haste, fly, vampiric touch
Level 4) stoneskin, wall of fire or solid fog, greater invisibility, enervation
Level 5) teleport, cone of cold, improved blink, persistent image
Level 6) greater heroism, imbue familiar with spell ability, analyze dweomer
Level 7) anti-magic ray, project image, limited wish
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Otto's irresistible dance, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Shades, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reaving Dispel

Notes: through limited wish + harmonic chorus (through your lillend from the shades spell), you've given yourself permanent darkvision/see invisible/arcane sight/tongues at 22nd level

Spells you'd typically imbue in your familiar: invisibility, enervation, fly, ray of enfeeblement, vampiric touch, teleport.

Pegasos989
2006-12-25, 10:41 AM
Level 1) magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease, protection from evil

No magic missile. It is nice that it hits everything but 5d4 +5 just doesn't help at those levels. Disguise self might come handy at some point, charm person if you can boost the save dc (like heighten spell) or something fun, like enlarge/reduce person...

Logos7
2006-12-25, 10:45 AM
I've yet to see Grease earn it's keep, Unless the wool is pulled over the eye's of some unexpecting Dm.

The Thing has a Save at 11+ Caster Mod that isn't hard for even the one without a good reflex save to make at least a signficant portion of the time and cannot be shapped around allies without metamagic

as well when an area it's overcome by a flat DC 10 Balance check for half speed,

Its not worth waiting for the Natural 1's to fail saves like colour spray because all it inflicts is going prone.

All this for the surposed versatility that a Balance check that *may* be modified according to situation *at dm's disgression*. I've Played with it , I've Dmed it, and when it's run like in the Book watch all those players cry for selecting this stupid spell.

Logos

Pegasos989
2006-12-25, 11:25 AM
I've yet to see Grease earn it's keep, Unless the wool is pulled over the eye's of some unexpecting Dm.

The Thing has a Save at 11+ Caster Mod that isn't hard for even the one without a good reflex save to make at least a signficant portion of the time and cannot be shapped around allies without metamagic

What kind of spellcaster does not have metamagic? Besides, heighten spell helps with the save


as well when an area it's overcome by a flat DC 10 Balance check for half speed,

Its not worth waiting for the Natural 1's to fail saves like colour spray because all it inflicts is going prone.

All this for the surposed versatility that a Balance check that *may* be modified according to situation *at dm's disgression*. I've Played with it , I've Dmed it, and when it's run like in the Book watch all those players cry for selecting this stupid spell.

LogosMost monsters have poor balance modifier. A large amount of monsters will fail reflex save or balance check (only one is needed for them to stay in the area).

Any balancing character without atleast 5 ranks in balance (few have) is also flatfooted when balancing. (EDIT: If I remember correctly, not only FF characters are sneak attackable but they can't take AoOs for example. Cast it under enemy fighter and watch the fun.)

Grease is one of the best low level spells... I think the logic ninja said something along the lines of arcane caster without grease being like fighter without weapon.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 12:31 PM
What kind of spellcaster does not have metamagic? Besides, heighten spell helps with the save

Most monsters have poor balance modifier. A large amount of monsters will fail reflex save or balance check (only one is needed for them to stay in the area).

Any balancing character without atleast 5 ranks in balance (few have) is also flatfooted when balancing. (EDIT: If I remember correctly, not only FF characters are sneak attackable but they can't take AoOs for example. Cast it under enemy fighter and watch the fun.)

Grease is one of the best low level spells... I think the logic ninja said something along the lines of arcane caster without grease being like fighter without weapon.

We had a previous thread on this. It all hinges on whether you consider someone "balancing" who does not attempt to move. If you don't move, you have to make a reflex save while you stand in the grease, but you don't have to make a balance check unless you move. So if you are not making balance checks, are you subject to the "balancing" condition? Some DMs will say yes, others no.

For DMs that say no, grease is still useful. For one, you can grease an object. The trick I read on this board (I won't take credit) is for the fighter to do a disarm, then you grease his weapon so he can't pick it back up again. But my favorite trick (which I will take credit for) is to use grease in combination with Otto's dance. With the save at -10 for Otto's, failing it becomes pretty likely. Then you've got a big monster on the ground, at a combined -8 on its armor class and invoking attacks of opportunity every turn.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 12:35 PM
No magic missile. It is nice that it hits everything but 5d4 +5 just doesn't help at those levels. Disguise self might come handy at some point, charm person if you can boost the save dc (like heighten spell) or something fun, like enlarge/reduce person...

How did that get in there? Boy is that embarassing. Sorry, I'd copied and pasted in my sorcerer's spell list, and he's still got spells on there he needs to swap out.

The answer for me is true strike. If you don't have true seeing, you need to be able to get past concealment/mirror images/high touch ac with your ray attacks. I have amended my post to reflect this.

Fizban
2006-12-25, 05:38 PM
Just wanna throw in some thought process I've been thoughting:

At high levels, you're lower level spells known are just weak spells, they're spell effects that you build up with metamagic. Sculpt spell lets you pump up the area of spells like grease and other 1st's, and shape them around allies for only a +1 level adjustment. There's plenty of other effects you can use on low level spells: empower/maximize, split ray (which should really be called double ray), reach spell and energy substitution if you eschew archmage, the list goes on past my memory. Heighten spell then increases the DC by as much more as you want to spend. Sure a cube shaped heightened glitterdust isn't as good as many higher level spells, but it's still a shapable save or be blinded with adjustable save DC.

Hope I got my point across in that mess.

Edit: not to mention the spells from Complete Mage that let you cast two lower level spells at once, more combining of spell effects to create just what you need when you need it.

Jimp
2006-12-27, 08:35 PM
Bumped!
Just wondering why this thread receives such limited interest. I would have thought that at least a few people would share their preferred spell lists.

ImperiousLeader
2006-12-27, 10:16 PM
As nice as these lists are, one should consider one's feats at the same time as you build your spell list. If you don't have Heighten Spell (And shame on you for that then), avoid low level spells with saving throws (actually, avoid most spells that allow saves), if you don't have room for an energy substitution feat, make sure your elemental spells aren't from the same element.

I'd point out that the Spell Compendium has Scintillating Sphere, a spell that functions exactly like fireball, except it does electrical damage and unlike fireball and lightning bolt, does not say it sets objects on fire/melts them. Since I like Scorching Ray, I invariably pick Scintillating Sphere over Fireball, so I have two different elemental attack spells without resorting to an Energy Substitution feat.


Spells Known
Level 0) detect magic, message, resistance, ray of frost, detect poison, read
magic, mage hand, ghost sound, arcane mark
Level 1) true strike, ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease, protection from evil
Level 2) scorching ray, resist energy, invisibility, false life, glitterdust
Level 3) slow, haste, fly, vampiric touch
Level 4) stoneskin, wall of fire or solid fog, greater invisibility, enervation
Level 5) teleport, cone of cold, improved blink, persistent image
Level 6) greater heroism, imbue familiar with spell ability, analyze dweomer
Level 7) anti-magic ray, project image, limited wish
Level 8) Greater Shadow Evocation, Otto's irresistible dance, Prismatic Wall
Level 9) Shades, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reaving Dispel

Ray of Frost? Are you joking? Where's prestidigitation, a poor man's wish spell?

I'd swap Cone of Cold for Telekinesis. One should always have Telekinesis, it's too darn versatile.

No Greater Dispel Magic? Madness, madness I say.

If you can use Dragon Magic, consider "Wingblast" over "Fly". It's better for Sorcerers, because it allows you to fly, and can replicate Gust of Wind and Obscuring Mist, giving you three spells for the price of not being able to buff your allies with flight.

In general, if you've got access to splatbooks, look for combo spells, Dragon Magic/i], [i]Player's Handbook II and Complete Mage all offer spells that can replicate the function of a couple of Core spells, making them more flexible.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-27, 10:55 PM
Ray of Frost? Are you joking? Where's prestidigitation, a poor man's wish spell?

I'd swap Cone of Cold for Telekinesis. One should always have Telekinesis, it's too darn versatile.

No Greater Dispel Magic? Madness, madness I say.


I have been planning on summoning the energy to actually put explanations next to each spell; I think that would make the whole list much more understandable as I have what I call "spell theory" about choosing spells that solve problems as opposed to picking spells that are cool.

Ray of Frost solves the problem of "probing". For instance the DM says, "There is a brownish blob in the corner. It is not moving." You could throw/shoot a projectile at it, but that may not prove anything. If it is a creature and not just a red herring, it may have dr or be immune to physical weaponry entirely. So nail it with a simple energy spell and see if it reacts. It is not as if you have anything better to do with 0 level spells. Ray of Frost also solves the problem of "annoying". As in, you want to injure something without seriously hurting it. Torturing, for instance.

I've never used prestidigitation, what can I do with it? I'm sure we could drop one of the other level 0 spells if it's really useful. I am certainly not going to claim that I am up on every spell that's out there.

You may be right about telekinesis, perhaps you could go into your favorite uses of that as well. I like to have one non-fire area of effect damage spell in there, which is why I go with cone of cold. It works well with project image.

I left greater dispel magic off because I took reaving dispel, so the problem of dispelling magic is solved (albeit at the cost of a 9th level slot). Each of the other 3 6th level spells I've identified solve major problems.
Greater heroism is a fantastic buff, both for you and the party.
Analyze dweomer solves 3 problems: item identification, trap solutions (when they are of arcane nature), and the under-appreciated know-every-active-spell-on-your-enemy.
Imbue familiar with spell ability solves the get more actions per round problem. Your familiar can cast true strike, affecting you, then you use your empowered enervate later in the same round.
In a core-only campaign where imbue familiar with spell ability isn't around and neither is reaving dispel, greater dispel magic is a no-brainer.

Skyserpent
2006-12-27, 11:15 PM
I've never used prestidigitation,

Guh... ga.... .... WHAT!?

Dude... Prestidigitation does so much stuff... It can make food taste great to get on peoples good sides. It can CLEAN ANYTHING You never have to bathe again, Spoon of Sustenances taste like apples. It's just like he said. Poor Man's wish.

Emperor Tippy
2006-12-27, 11:38 PM
It can also change the color of your clothes. Running from the town guard with a black cloak on? 6 seconds later it's white. And 6 seconds after that someone else's becomes black.

ImperiousLeader
2006-12-27, 11:46 PM
I missed Reaving Dispel. That's a good one, but I always struggle with the idea of using a 9th level slot for dispelling.


I've never used prestidigitation, what can I do with it?

Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) It's more a question of "what can't I do with it?" At it's basic level, it's the ultimate flavour spell, but used creatively, it' can be quite potent. Tricksy things like making food taste like poison (or vice versa), Colouring clothes for the fashionable (or for disguise purposes) sorc, cleaning and soiling objects for fun and profit, etc. It's just a fun spell with many possible applications. I don't consider it a combat spell, but it is a great roleplay spell.


You may be right about telekinesis, perhaps you could go into your favorite uses of that as well.

Combat Maneuvers, especially if your familiar casts the spell, since you don't lose actions concentrating. Grapple, trip or disarm opponents, using your caster level and casting stat in place of BAB and STR. Telekinesis is also good for triggering traps.


Imbue familiar with spell ability solves the get more actions per round problem. Your familiar can cast true strike, affecting you, then you use your empowered enervate later in the same round.

I don't think this works, True Strike is a personal spell, if a familiar cast it, it would gain the benefits of True Strike, not you. That's not to say Imbue is a bad spell, it's a great way to get around the Sorcerer's inability to quicken, and it's less cheesy than Arcane Spellsurge.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-28, 07:37 AM
I missed Reaving Dispel. That's a good one, but I always struggle with the idea of using a 9th level slot for dispelling.



Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) It's more a question of "what can't I do with it?" At it's basic level, it's the ultimate flavour spell, but used creatively, it' can be quite potent. Tricksy things like making food taste like poison (or vice versa), Colouring clothes for the fashionable (or for disguise purposes) sorc, cleaning and soiling objects for fun and profit, etc. It's just a fun spell with many possible applications. I don't consider it a combat spell, but it is a great roleplay spell.



Combat Maneuvers, especially if your familiar casts the spell, since you don't lose actions concentrating. Grapple, trip or disarm opponents, using your caster level and casting stat in place of BAB and STR. Telekinesis is also good for triggering traps.



I don't think this works, True Strike is a personal spell, if a familiar cast it, it would gain the benefits of True Strike, not you. That's not to say Imbue is a bad spell, it's a great way to get around the Sorcerer's inability to quicken, and it's less cheesy than Arcane Spellsurge.

Well okay I'm all for any 0-level spell that you still find yourself casting at level 20. Heck, I've only used ray of frost a few times for the needs I described; needs that are met perfectly by a 750 gp wand of magic missiles.

Telekinesis sounds intriguing, but the problem of immobilizing a foe is best solved by greater shadow evocation forcecage. Disarming it does not do, though. I also like the idea of your familiar doing that to people.

When a wizard/sorcerer casts a spell with personal range, he can share it with his familiar. So it makes sense that a familiar casting a likewise spell can share it with his master. I've never seen a DM rule otherwise.

Oh ... and reaving dispel is so much fun to use on enemy clerics to pick up their divine favor/divine power/righteous might combo for yourself. They all stack with Tenser's Transformation too, if you want to go really wild. You can use limited wish to cast that.

tarbrush
2006-12-28, 08:04 AM
When a wizard/sorcerer casts a spell with personal range, he can share it with his familiar. So it makes sense that a familiar casting a likewise spell can share it with his master. I've never seen a DM rule otherwise.


I disagree. And I suspect a lot of other people would too. It says that wizards casting spells can share them with their familiars, it does not say that familiars casting spells can share them.

Also, this may be handy
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183763

ken-do-nim
2006-12-28, 10:18 AM
Okay folks, I've updated the first post to summarize what we've talked about so far. If I've got something wrong, just PM me and I'll fix it.

ClericofPhwarrr
2006-12-28, 11:47 AM
Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) It's more a question of "what can't I do with it?" At it's basic level, it's the ultimate flavour spell, but used creatively, it' can be quite potent. Tricksy things like making food taste like poison (or vice versa), Colouring clothes for the fashionable (or for disguise purposes) sorc, cleaning and soiling objects for fun and profit, etc. It's just a fun spell with many possible applications. I don't consider it a combat spell, but it is a great roleplay spell.


And my personal favorite: playing music while the party is marching. It reminds me of our group's gnome beguiler, who'd use the dancing lights spell to alleviate his boredom. (And attempt to distract the balor, but that didn't go so well. :smallbiggrin:)

Calin
2007-02-25, 11:00 AM
Just was wanting to give this thread a little love in the hopes ken-do-nim will eventually get around to writing his "spell theory" to accompany the list. I'd be eager to read some of the combos and feats involved.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-25, 12:36 PM
Just was wanting to give this thread a little love in the hopes ken-do-nim will eventually get around to writing his "spell theory" to accompany the list. I'd be eager to read some of the combos and feats involved.

Well since you asked nicely, how can I refuse? I'll write more later tonight, after the kids go to bed.

Yahzi
2007-02-25, 02:26 PM
Level 1) ray of enfeeblement, shield, grease
ken-do-nim: true strike, protection from evil
Bears with Lasers: enlarge person, silent image
Yes, "Bears with Lasers" is my favorite first level spell. Although I don't know what "kend-do-nim" is; that must be from a splat book?

:smallbiggrin:

Seriously, great thread. I imagine this would be a big help to DMs making sorcerer NPCs.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-25, 08:00 PM
These should be helpful:
1) spells that remove an enemy from combat: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=815

2) solid utility spells: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=822

Sorcerers should focus on spells that don't become obsolete, while maximizing utility and minimizing redundancy.

Also, Logos7, I hope I can change your opinion on Grease (once I get my spell component pouch back, anyway).

ken-do-nim
2007-02-25, 09:18 PM
The bulk of this post is going to have to wait until my brain returns to working order; I've been down with a nasty head cold the past week.

Let me first rename spell theory to spell-choosing methodology. It's basically a 3 step program to picking your spells.
1. Identify what problems you want your arcane caster to solve.
2. Identify what spells, feats, and items solve those problems.
3. Identify what spells from that list solve multiple problems, or work well together (synergy).

The idea is to instead of flip through books and say, "Gee, this looks neat, let me take that" to know that you are taking a given spell because it solves the need for x, y, and z. A sorcerer must avoid redundancy. You can probably start to see why wizards are more powerful than sorcerers, because wizards decide, "What problems do I want to solve today", as opposed to only picking at leveling up time. If they know they are going into a crypt with lots of undead, they can memorize appropriate spells. Sorcerers don't have that luxury. They have to pick the most flexible spells - or take feats to make those spells flexible.

So first we should define all the possible problems. Naturally not all of these problems can be solved via arcane magic, but most can. In general, I suggest defining problems not too vaguely and not too specifically. For instance, "I need a way to protect my allies" is too vague. If you take a spell that boosts an ally's saving throws, it may not help in a situation where they need damage reduction or more hit points. On the other hand, you don't need to be too specific like "I need a spell that gives my ally damage reduction". Chances are, giving an ally a concealment bonus would be just as good. So I'd word it as "I need a way to protect my allies from taking physical damage."

I'll start on the list of problems/needs tomorrow night ... I promise.

Edit: There's also a step 4, which is playtesting. Some spells might seem good on paper, but it turns out for whatever reason that they don't work in game. Perhaps your DM makes a ruling that nerfs the spell, or perhaps the 1 round casting time negates its usefulness, or perhaps you've chosen a fortitude save spell whose primary targets usually have high fortitude saves.

Stevenson
2007-02-25, 09:33 PM
Hm. Of course, this is 20th level, so I'm assuming you have some sort of meatshield. So abjurations, while still effective, don't have as much use. However, you should probably go for some form of scrying at some point, because it's insanely useful.

Oh, and obscuring fog is a must for beating a hasty retreat as well as just beating the stuffing out of people when they can't see, often using glitterdust along with it.

Calin
2007-02-25, 11:54 PM
I'm looking forward to it, Ken.

Lidjis
2007-02-26, 12:23 AM
What the hell, here is mine, core only, no cheese allowed
1- magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, silent image, enlarge person, true strike
2- scorching ray, invisibility, glitterdust, mirror image, rope trick (im too cheap for the wand)
3- heroism, wind wall, haste, slow, dispel magic
4- enervation, solid fog, fear, dimensional anchor
5- overland flight, teleport, dominate person, baleful polymorph
6- repulsion, mass suggestion, true seeing
7- waves of exhaustion, ethereal jaunt, reverse gravity
8- prismatic wall, otto's dance, greater shadow evocation (force cage and contingency, mostly)
9- foresight, timestop, summon monster 9

Thrawn183
2007-02-26, 02:29 PM
Am I the only one who's feeling the love for Displacement? A question: can a sorceror choose to learn lower level spells instead of higher ones? If instead of learning a fourth level spell, could I pick up another third level one?

Oh, and grease is awesome! If you have complete mage you might want to look at incendiary slime. 2nd level spell that works the same as grease until you also add in some fire damage.

okpokalypse
2007-02-26, 02:41 PM
I would recommend putting in Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PHB-II) as a 3rd Level Spell. It's Ranged Touch, Untyped Damage, bypasses SR and has no Save. It's also got Medium Range, so by the level you're talking about, you can use it from about 300' away.

1d8+8 Damage / Arrow. 5 Arrows at CL 17. Maximized, that's 80 Damage. It also includes a Bull Rush feature, DC 29 Strength Check (for 5 Arrows).

If one were to make this the offensive focus of their PC, and took Arcane Thesis (Melf's), Maximize and Twin Spell - they could do 160 Damage w/ an 8th Level Slot (Or 120 w/ Maximize & Empower from a 6th Level Slot if you prefer a lower spell level). If you're using Celerity cheese (and it is cheese) that's 320 Damage done.

I find this spell to be invaluable against proto-typical BBEG's since they all seem to have SR 30+ and Ludicrous Saves... You can't underestimate No SR, No Save and Untyped Damage. The only way this spell loses it's usefulness is if you're going against something with a 30+ Touch AC.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-26, 02:45 PM
How's Unicorn Arrow better than Orb of Force? 15d6 = 52.5 average; the arrows are a little more (62.5), but you're making *five* ranged touch attacks--more, with Twin Spell. Some of them will miss; even a touch AC of 15 or so ensures that. Even one missing will make the average damage less than Orb of Force.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-26, 03:03 PM
Well, the Orb of Force is 4th level, no? Not that I can ever sem to find enough 3rd level slots for all the good spells at that level (although 4th is probably the second worst level in terms of the "spells I want" to "spells known" ratio).

Single-target damage is really really weak, though, especially against BBEGs (unless you burn a ton of feats on Arcane Thesis). You'd be better off buffing the party at low levels, or using no-save, no-SR debuffs on the guy, or just casting Assay Spell Resistance (combined, if necessary, with Arcane Mastery, to always beat any SR no more than 20 above your CL). If you're casting 8th level spells, though, you should be able to do much crazier things than just 160 damage/spell. At those levels, your melee people can do hundreds of damage for you--if you set them up for it. If you're busy trying to do their job, the BBEG will go to town on the party.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-26, 09:30 PM
Right uh, well, err, back to our show. Problems to solve:

Slowdown one enemy
Slowdown a bunch of enemies
Damage a bunch of enemies
Damage one enemy
Weaken a bunch of enemies
Weaken one enemy
Improve allies' ability to do damage
Keep you & your allies from taking physical damage
Keep you & your allies from taking energy damage
Keep you & your allies from failing saving throws
Long-distance communication
Long-distance transportation for you & your whole party
Get away from danger
Get whole party away from danger
Provide safe resting place
Heal yourself & your allies
Identify magic
Identify cursed magic
Determine which foes are the strongest
See remotely / scrying
Make sure enemies can't get away
Detect traps
Set off traps without harming party
Free ally from grapple
Provide food & rations
Cure diseases
Neutralize poisons
Restore ability penalties & damage
Restore negative levels
Raise the dead
Learn ancient legends without somebody to tell you them
Alter someone's mind
Improve your allies' skills

I'm sure I'll think of more, so I'll be back...

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-26, 09:47 PM
"Magic" should really be subdivided into "magic items" and "ongoing spells", because you should be able to detect and ID both kinds.

Others:
End ongoing spell effects
Short-distance (tactical) movement and mobility
Convert foes to allies
Neutralize enemies (both lethally and nonlethally)
Handle foreign environments (eg underwater)
Avoid enemies

ken-do-nim
2007-02-26, 09:54 PM
"Magic" should really be subdivided into "magic items" and "ongoing spells", because you should be able to detect and ID both kinds.

Others:
End ongoing spell effects
Short-distance (tactical) movement and mobility
Convert foes to allies
Neutralize enemies (both lethally and nonlethally)
Handle foreign environments (eg underwater)
Avoid enemies

Thanks man! We may also want to be more specific about enemy types, like defeat undead & constructs. Otherwise you may take a mind-affecting spell for the purpose of defeating opponents and end up stuck.

Others:
Deal with opponents with high spell resistance
Gain access to knowledge skills you don't have
Deal with invisible opponents
Deal with illusions
Deal with concealed opponents
Deal with cover
Open locks
Figure out how complicated magical devices work
Know somebody's powers (both inactive & currently active)
Communicate privately

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-26, 11:30 PM
Oh yeah, here's a couple key ones:
Gain more actions for yourself
Gain more actions for your allies
Take away enemy actions

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 11:08 AM
How's Unicorn Arrow better than Orb of Force? 15d6 = 52.5 average; the arrows are a little more (62.5), but you're making *five* ranged touch attacks--more, with Twin Spell. Some of them will miss; even a touch AC of 15 or so ensures that. Even one missing will make the average damage less than Orb of Force.

Orb of Force caps at 10d6. All the Force effects do lesser damage because the damage type is so rarely resisted. So it's a 4th Level Spell that does 60 Maximized (Force) v. a 3rd Level Spell that does 80 Maximized (Untyped) + a Bull Rush. Keep in mind that there are also some ways to prevent Force Damage.

Also, don't under-estimate the effect of multiple attack rolls. If you're making 10 Attack rolls, and you hit on 2+, you're likely only going to short yourself 16 Pts of Damage every other casting. With the Orb spells, you just do nothing when that miss happens. I'm one who much rather prefers the consistency. Even with a run of bad rolls I'll land 70% of the arrows v. a total miss on the Orb spell.

Also, as a statistical side note: Just because the Orb is more likely to do Total Damage doesn't give it a better damage ratio over time. It's still the same % miss / hit Ranged Touch either way.

In the end, the only advantage I see is that the Force spell can strike incorporeal creatures without fail.

As for touch AC, a high level Sorc should have his +10 BAB, and at least a +5 from Dex (w/ Item Boosts). Some (rare) items also boost ranged (touch) attacks - so it's rather easily possible to have a base attack with Ranged Touch of +20. If you've got divine buffers in the group (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful: +3/+3) and Melee'rs with group buff items (Standard of Heroism: +2 Attacks, Skills, Saves) then that can get to +25 or more rather quickly.

Very few enemies will ever have a Touch AC over that.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 11:34 AM
Single-target damage is really really weak, though, especially against BBEGs (unless you burn a ton of feats on Arcane Thesis).

Arcane Thesis has no feat Pre-Reqs other than Knowledge: Arcane - 9 Ranks (6th Level). So you only need to burn 1 Feat to essentially "signature" a spell for cheaper meta-magic. And it applies to all Meta-Magic (Except Heighten) for that given spell, not 1 feat per Meta-Magic power. It's actually very nice when all is said and done.


You'd be better off buffing the party at low levels, or using no-save, no-SR debuffs on the guy, or just casting Assay Spell Resistance (combined, if necessary, with Arcane Mastery, to always beat any SR no more than 20 above your CL).

Yes, but in doing so takes time. If you're looking for a spell that lets you start doing unresistable damage in your 1st action without preping to get past SR and Saves, Melf's Unicorn Arrow is it.


If you're casting 8th level spells, though, you should be able to do much crazier things than just 160 damage/spell. At those levels, your melee people can do hundreds of damage for you--if you set them up for it. If you're busy trying to do their job, the BBEG will go to town on the party.

Again, it depends on the type of BBEG in question. If you're fighting something Colossal with a 60+ AC (Most if it Natural) and High SR & Saves - you've got the best weapon. When going against an enemy with a high enough AC to force your Melee guys to abandon Power Attacks and only land 2 hits a round, they're not doing all that much damage anymore.

The reason I promote this spell so frequently is that I've been using it for some time now, and it's pulled my butt (and the group's) out of the fire many, many times. In particular, having a Quicken, Rod and allowing the Celerity Spells in one campain I was in allowed me to do the following against a Great Wyrm Red after the Tank dropped in 2 Rounds (Really Good DM rolls):

Melf's Unicorn Maximized & Empowered (Swift - Rod) = 120 (No 1's)
Melf's Unicorn Maximized & Twinned (Standard) = 160 (No 1's)
Greater Celerity
- Melf's Unicorn Maximized & Empowered (Swift - Rod) = 120 (No 1's)
- Melf's Unicorn Maximized & Twinned (Standard) = 128 (Two 1's)

So there was a total of 30 Attack Rolls, and I rolled 2 1's - making it a little over miss average vs. a Touch AC of 2 :). I did 528 Damage, Finishing it off (we had knocked off maybe 180 of it's HP before that).

I'm sure there are other, equally efficient ways of doing things - but this is just one very effective way that I'd had first-hand use of, and I've yet to experience something better overall, that works as effectively in as many situations.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 11:45 AM
Thanks man! We may also want to be more specific about enemy types, like defeat undead & constructs. Otherwise you may take a mind-affecting spell for the purpose of defeating opponents and end up stuck.

Others:
Deal with opponents with high spell resistance
Gain access to knowledge skills you don't have
Deal with invisible opponents
Deal with illusions
Deal with concealed opponents
Deal with cover
Open locks
Figure out how complicated magical devices work
Know somebody's powers (both inactive & currently active)
Communicate privately

A lot of times whole ranges of these "needs" can be covered through taking the Arcane Disciple Feat from Complete Divine. One could take domains that give them multiples useful spells - provided they've got the Wisdom to cast them.

Things like taking on the Healing Domain is of easily obvious benefit - but that's a one dimensional aspect. Something like the Good Domain provides a lot of differing Protections (Prot Fr Evil, Magic Circle, Holy Aura) , Offense (Dispel Evil, Smite Evil, Blade Barrier, Holy Word) and even has a Pseudo-Healing spell (Aid) and Summon Spell (Summon Monster IX).

The Luck Domain is another phenominal diverse group of spells to add to a Sorcerer spell list: Entropic Shield, Aid, Protection from Energy, Freedom of Movement, Break Enchantment, Mislead, Spell Turning, Moment of Prescience, Miracle!

(Note that Miracle lets you duplicate any spell (on any spell list) of 7th level or less with no XP Cost - So very useful for a limited Spell's known caster)

IMO - a Feat that add's 9 Spells to your limited repotoire is always a good choice, even if only 4 or 5 of them are spells you might see yourself using.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-27, 12:59 PM
A lot of times whole ranges of these "needs" can be covered through taking the Arcane Disciple Feat from Complete Divine. One could take domains that give them multiples useful spells - provided they've got the Wisdom to cast them.

Things like taking on the Healing Domain is of easily obvious benefit - but that's a one dimensional aspect. Something like the Good Domain provides a lot of differing Protections (Prot Fr Evil, Magic Circle, Holy Aura) , Offense (Dispel Evil, Smite Evil, Blade Barrier, Holy Word) and even has a Pseudo-Healing spell (Aid) and Summon Spell (Summon Monster IX).

The Luck Domain is another phenominal diverse group of spells to add to a Sorcerer spell list: Entropic Shield, Aid, Protection from Energy, Freedom of Movement, Break Enchantment, Mislead, Spell Turning, Moment of Prescience, Miracle!

(Note that Miracle lets you duplicate any spell (on any spell list) of 7th level or less with no XP Cost - So very useful for a limited Spell's known caster)

IMO - a Feat that add's 9 Spells to your limited repotoire is always a good choice, even if only 4 or 5 of them are spells you might see yourself using.

<Sits in stunned disbelief that there is a feat that good. Granted, you say that the sorcerer has to have the requisite wisdom, but hell yeah I'll get a +6 wisdom device if I can get that many new spells on my list. I'm definitely cracking open my copy of Complete Divine tonight and checking this bad boy out. My sorcerer is level 17, still time to take this one!>

Anyway, I'll return to this thread later tonight or tomorrow night with the ways I've thought up to (a) meet many of these needs with a sorcerer's spell list (and feats, obviously!) and (b) the combinations of spells that can make your sorcerer all the more effective.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-27, 01:09 PM
Um. Arcane Disciple does NOT give a Sorcerer spells known! It *lets him learn them* with his normal level-up spells known. It's terrible for a sorcerer.
Also, you need a wisdom of 10+Spell Level to cast each Arcane Disciple spell, AND you can only cast each 1/day. It's absolutely horrible for sorcerers.

It's okay for casters like Beguilers and Warmages, whose Spells Known equals their entire spell list, but still not all that great.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-27, 01:36 PM
Um. Arcane Disciple does NOT give a Sorcerer spells known! It *lets him learn them* with his normal level-up spells known. It's terrible for a sorcerer.
Also, you need a wisdom of 10+Spell Level to cast each Arcane Disciple spell, AND you can only cast each 1/day. It's absolutely horrible for sorcerers.

It's okay for casters like Beguilers and Warmages, whose Spells Known equals their entire spell list, but still not all that great.

Thanks Bears. Ah, sanity returns to the universe. Wait, there's still shapechange...

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 01:43 PM
Um. Arcane Disciple does NOT give a Sorcerer spells known! It *lets him learn them* with his normal level-up spells known. It's terrible for a sorcerer.

Also, you need a wisdom of 10+Spell Level to cast each Arcane Disciple spell, AND you can only cast each 1/day. It's absolutely horrible for sorcerers.

It's okay for casters like Beguilers and Warmages, whose Spells Known equals their entire spell list, but still not all that great.

Ahh, you're right in the first aspect. We've got it house-ruled that it adds to spells known since if it's just added to spell list, and not spells known - how on earth would a Wizard ever find an Arcane scroll of Heal to add it to his repotoire? If he took this feat at L18, that would mean he'd have to forsake learning 9th level spells (as he levels) to just get 6 of the lower-level healing spells known. It's just counter-intuitive.

The Wisdom effect isn't too big a deal when all is said and done. Having a 13 base Wis and +6 Wis item by the time you can cast 9th level spells is trivial. And the 1/day restriction ain't that bad. It's the utility that's added which is the big factor. I mean, if you need more than one Miracle a day, or your Sorcerer is being called on to Primary heal, and not just do it in a pinch, there's a bigger problem :).

Btw - Did I change your stance on the usefulness of Melf's compared to the Orb of Force?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-27, 01:50 PM
I... actually hadn't realized the Orb of Force was 10d6 not 15d6. That does change things after level 10, yeah.

Edit: Arcane Thesis is Made Of Cheese, though, so I don't really count it. Same--but moreso--for (Greater) Celerity. :P

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 01:58 PM
I... actually hadn't realized the Orb of Force was 10d6 not 15d6. That does change things after level 10, yeah.

Edit: Arcane Thesis is Made Of Cheese, though, so I don't really count it. Same--but moreso--for (Greater) Celerity. :P

Oh, I completely agree the Celerity Spells are immense cheese, as is Anticipatory Strike (Psionic), Divine Meta-Magic and Natural Spell. All major cheese, that if removed, might serve to make casters just a bit more reasonably balanced.

However, I don't think Arcane Thesis is in that category. In fact, I find it a nice way to allow arcane casters to almost have signature spells - which went the way of the dodo after D&D v2.5.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-27, 02:20 PM
Arcane Thesis has no feat Pre-Reqs other than Knowledge: Arcane - 9 Ranks (6th Level). So you only need to burn 1 Feat to essentially "signature" a spell for cheaper meta-magic. And it applies to all Meta-Magic (Except Heighten) for that given spell, not 1 feat per Meta-Magic power. It's actually very nice when all is said and done.
Sure, but if you really want to *ahem* maximize it, you need some combination of Empower, Maximize, and Twin, generally. Those feats are a waste for any sorcerer that doesn't bother with damage--especially if you need to spend feats qualifying for a PrC.

You get 7 feats (8 if human), and you know that two are going to Quicken and Rapid Metamagic. Sculpt Spell is almost as necessary (you can skip it if you're going for Archmage, but that takes even more feats), and that leaves 4-5 feats total, ever. Arcane Thesis can put up some impressive numbers, but being an arcane caster isn't about the numbers.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 03:52 PM
Sure, but if you really want to *ahem* maximize it, you need some combination of Empower, Maximize, and Twin, generally. Those feats are a waste for any sorcerer that doesn't bother with damage--especially if you need to spend feats qualifying for a PrC.

You get 7 feats (8 if human), and you know that two are going to Quicken and Rapid Metamagic. Sculpt Spell is almost as necessary (you can skip it if you're going for Archmage, but that takes even more feats), and that leaves 4-5 feats total, ever. Arcane Thesis can put up some impressive numbers, but being an arcane caster isn't about the numbers.

PHB-II Sorcerer Option, MetaMagic Specialist. You give up a familiar for being able to use Meta-Magic without increasing the casting time of your spells. As someone who's not fond of familiars, this made me very happy, and freed up a feat.

Maximize, Empower, Twin, Arcane Thesis () + 3 or 4 More. Not bad really.

As for me, I like to always have 1 "Annihilate" button for when things aren't going well. My Thesis'd Melf's is that for me, and it's yet to let me down.

EDIT:

I'm not fond of Quicken as a Meta-Magic Feat. I much prefer to get the Rod and use it that way. I've found that if I have it as a Feat, I'll maybe use it 3 times a day at most because of the +4 Spell Level boost.

I instead keep 3 Rods of it (Lesser, Normal, Greater) and have the Quick Draw feat to grab & use the appropriate one as needed. Sure, it may not be the most efficient use of a feat when all is said and done, but it's one I've enjoyed, and never felt hindered by.

Thinking of it mechanically, the earliest a Sorcerer can use Quicken is at L10 (5th Level Spell Slots for 1st Level Quickens). By that point, you should be able to have a Lesser Quicken Rod. By L16 (8th Level Spell Slots for 4th Level Quickens) you should similarly have a Quicken Rod, if not already have a Greater Quicken Rod.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-27, 05:06 PM
Metamagic specialist is nice, but it's only 3 + int mod times/day. That's not a lot, especially if you want to use Heighten to keep lower level save spells competitive (which really helps with the whole limited spells known thing). Now, you can just give up your move action a lot, but that's not exactly safe.

As for Quicken, those rods are really, really expensive. It's almost 300,000gp to get all three. You can reasonably pick up the lesser rod no sooner than level 12 (unless you want to spend more than half your money on it, or you're way above WBL), although, to be fair, that's about when you really want to pick up Quicken anyway. You're more likely to actually get the lesser rod around levels 14-15, though, especially since a cloak of charisma +6 costs the same, and you probably want that first. And note that the feat doesn't actually overlap with the Greater Rod, since that boosts spells to a minimum virtual level of 11 (not that you can reasonably afford the greater rod until the last couple levels anyway).

Generally, I find myself short on cash far more often than I'm short on spell slots, so Quicken tends to work a lot better than rods of Quicken. If your DM tends to give out more treasure than WBL suggests, then Rods of Quicken start to look a lot better. In my experience, campaigns are generally below WBL, not above it, so I'd rather spend a feat + spell slots than a feat + cash, to get my 2 spells/round.

Hallavast
2007-02-27, 05:40 PM
The spell matrix tree is also a nice alternative to quicken spell at higher levels.

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-27, 06:01 PM
Well, if we're talking about spells to duplicate Quicken, Arcane Spellsurge and (Greater) Arcane Fusion are both excellent options (Arcane Spellsurge is probably broken, honestly).

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-03-07, 07:21 PM
It's okay for casters like Beguilers and Warmages, whose Spells Known equals their entire spell list, but still not all that great.

Why so? I'm currently making a Beguiler, and getting the Travel domain spells would seem to be a fantastic boon for him. He'd gain access to Longstrider, Locate Object, Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Find the Path, Greater Teleport, Phase Door, and Astral Projection. The only one of these already on his spell list is Phase Door. Since none of these spells has a save DC, I only have to make sure my wisdom is high enough to cast them, which can be done over time.

Admittedly, I'd have to pump 8 skill points into Knowledge: Religion, but since I'm looking at having 8+int skill points per level with my current build, that doesn't seem to be a huge problem.

And if not this, what would you recommend?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-07, 07:55 PM
Why so? I'm currently making a Beguiler, and getting the Travel domain spells would seem to be a fantastic boon for him. He'd gain access to Longstrider, Locate Object, Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Find the Path, Greater Teleport, Phase Door, and Astral Projection. The only one of these already on his spell list is Phase Door. Since none of these spells has a save DC, I only have to make sure my wisdom is high enough to cast them, which can be done over time.

Admittedly, I'd have to pump 8 skill points into Knowledge: Religion, but since I'm looking at having 8+int skill points per level with my current build, that doesn't seem to be a huge problem.

And if not this, what would you recommend?
Well, generally, because it means you need to raise wisdom (along with INT, CHA, DEX, and CON), and you can only cast those spells once/day. Beguilers are the best-suited to the feat, though.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-07, 10:01 PM
PS: I do intend to return to this thread, but work has been consuming all my time. Real life ... yuck!

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-08, 11:25 AM
I like the sorcerer but on a side note the UA Spellcaster variant is so much nicer straight 20 levels throwing in a few extra feats and both arcane and divine spell lists for choosing known spells and so many other classes are getting spontaneous casting in some form now (occassionally almost or as good or better than a comparable spontaneous casting sorcerer of comparable level via feats or PRCs usally with better HD, SPs and other specials).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

For purposes of this thread use a core sorcerer with Arcane Disciple as it is written up in Complete Divine (Choose a Diety and then select a domain availbable to clerics of that Diety (This is Important for Inititate of Mystra Domain)).

IMO the feat as written Specifically Nerfs the sorcerer because the sorcerer is Not Limited in casting any other "Known Spell" from his spell list to Only Once a Day and the reason so many people house rule it for their campaigns. However sticking to the rules as written.

There are several options like taking Arcane Disciple for One Domain:

I'm not aware of Any Core Luck and Spell Domain Dieties (If there are Pantheon Clergy though) so there are several interesting domains but in particular for sorcerers:

Initiate of Mystra from Players Guide to Faerun and "Choosing" Any Spell and Any Spell Greater as Known spells because the Feat also Makes the Domain spells as "Known" Spells. It just gives the sorcerer with their limited known spell lists a lot more spell flexibility under the thread limitations for casting useful lower level spells in conjuntion with a few minutes and a spell book).

Also Not Cheese IMO as Mystra has Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards in her Clergy without Any Cleric levels over the years in many sources like the Magister of Mystra Meleghost Necromancer 13 Arcane Devotee 5 in Waterdeep City of Splendors. Don't see why most Magic Dieties wouldn't have the same Domain either ie Initiate of "......." God of Magic.

The Two spells require spell books but it is nice for sorcerer versatility and the useful occassional and limited daily use spells like Identify (Downtime usually), Mage Armor or Extended Mage Armor (Before starting the Adventure (Dress like a Monk not a Wizard)), Rope Trick (Rest Time at the end of the day) as per this thread restrictions could be worth a level 3 daily spell use. The Arcane Bardic Cure Light and Cure Moderate spells might be considered Cheesy.

The occasional use Explosive Runes, Illusionary Script, Secret Page, Water Breathing, Remove Curse, Scrying, Contact the Other Plane, Fabricate, Mord's Faithful Hound, Overland Flight Permanency (Before Limited Wish levels), Sending, Stone Wall, Illusions...........
------------------------------------------------------------------

If you don't play in FRCS or worship Mystra consider the Luck Domain for Miracle or the Spell Domain for Any Spell and Any Spell Greater.

Leveling up the Spell Domain would be more useful particularly if you house rule Domain spells as Special Known spells which are only usable as normal "Known" spells if chosen or once a day with the Domain (Good for that single daily use Mage Armor, Silence, Break Enchantment, the occassional daily Limited Wish casting or a second casting of Break Enchantment or Greater Anyspell), Anti Magic Field, (Swap out MDJ for something (Miracle Maybe for this thread) particularly nice if you use casting lower spells with a higher level daily casting option). Level 18 Luck Domain the way to go IMO.

Miracle almost worth casting it Only Once a Day with Wisdom despite the Feat cost for daily Versatility without Experience Cost.

Depending on which Domain you chose cast the Domain spell or spells into a Ring of Theurgy. Now they are usable as Known Spells for 20,000 GP Market and Charisma Not Wisdom Based Saves.

Personally I would allow Miracle to put the Arcane Variant of Any Spell and Any Spell Greater into the ring.

Unluck Level 3 from Spell Compendium is interesting despite Will save as oponent takes worst of rolls each round (att, dam, and save)

Since we are not using Polymorph in this thread. Kiss of the Vampire Level of 7 now in spell compendium because it provides multifple benefits:

DR10/magic, enervation, vampiric touch, charm person and gaseous form (shouldn't use against clerics as you are treated as if undead).
--------------------------------------------------

On a side note since sorcerers have a very limited known spell list and limited feats.

In general most PCs use the same general damage spells repeatedly. Instead of using several limited feats for meta consider learning a few meta spells leveling up and using those feats for other things like Improved Initiative (Casting first enhances survivability), Craft Wonderous (Really nice with MotAO or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep still not bad with other party spell casters, (scrolls and NPC casters just a little more record keeping)), Leadership (It can get you that Wizard NPC magical crafter cohort instead of taking crafting feats), Quick Draw if Meta Rods are commonly available in your campaign (With a CL 17 to craft not available to BBEGs or Players in All campaigns), Educated, Precocious Apprentice, Mercantile Background and Super Feats like Spell Fire Wielder is really for several useful SU abilities plus it is nice with True Strike at low levels+ with a decent Con for a Flamestrike type attack, God Sight and Hidden Talent with Astral Construct or Psionic Charm and getting level PP bonus for Charisma come to mind:

Augmented Summon Monster spells vice standard (No spell level adjustment like most feat augmented spells (personally I don't see why the sorcerer couldn't know the variant as a minor bone to the sorcerer as few will know more than two or three and certainly not a game breaker)). If you think it is to cheesy look at it this way a sorcerer could simply purchase an augmented Summon Monster Scroll from a Thaumaturgist or Specialist Conjurer and learn it that way as an improved variant of a same level spell.

A few ideas leveling up:

Augmented Summoning for Sorcerers even if scrolls must be purchased in game.

Arcane Variant of Level One Spell Compendium Spells Divine Sacrifice (Extra Damage) or Sign (long Initiative Bonus)

A level 2 sculpted Grease is a lot more useful than plain Grease and a 150 GP scroll should be available to learn it from at the worst and there is always the possibility of casting it augmented with Shadow Conjuration.

Arcane Variants of Any Spell and Any Spell Greater for sorcerers.

A level 3 Acid Ball or Sonic Ball vice Fireball.

Level 4 Shadow Conjuration Good General Purpose Utility Spell despite 20% if Saved Against so:

(***Always Summon 5 Augmented SM3 Monsters for combat and have target and engage different opponents increasing the odds of save fails particularly against low will save types), Phantasmal Steed (Nice quick casting alternative to Fly and Overland Flight for speed and duration), No Cost Sepia Snake Sigil, Web, Melf's Acid Arrow, Sculpted Grease, Extended Mage Armor, Extended Mount, (Great for Quick casting of Create magic Tattoo*** for party members Spell Compendium and Improved Mage Armor (Player's Guide to Faerun)), (Bands of Armor, Corpse Candle, Mage Armor (+6) Spell Compendium), Dimension Jump (Extended) vice taking Dimension Door for short jaunts). (SM, Grease and Web are good alternative to Slow for Slowing down opponents as Will Save Negates Slow and Shadow Conjuration Creation still has a 20% chance of working which is better than Zero with multiple creatures.

*** Shadow Conjuration is almost worth it just for Create Magic Tattoo from the Spell Compendium Level 2 (Duration 24 Hours (48 hours if Extended casting as a Level 3 Extended Conjuration Spell so now back to full spell casting if party waited a day along with Buff like Extended Mage Armor) by CL13+ with No Costs: SR10+1 per 3 CLs, +2 Ability Enhancement, +1 CL, +2 to Att, +2 to Saves, +1 to AC deflection with a Max of 3 Tattoos a character.

Level 3 Dragon Skin from the Spell Compendium Nat Armor increase and energy resistance nice with Mage Armor, Greater Mage Armor or Improved Mage Armor and a Ring of Counter Spells "Dispel Magic".

At mid levels (10-15 or so) a level 5 a quickened magic missile (Basic general purpose almost always hit first strike with Improved Initiative Feat and Sign is nice), an empowered Acid ball or Sonic Ball and so forth is also nice as you level up (You can scupt them for a level 6 spell effect).

Greater Shadow Conjuration: Acid Fog, Emergency Planar Binding, 5 Augmented Summon Monster 6 (Target Individually for save failures and engaging multiple oponents also good for slowing down opponents), Leomunds Secure Shelter (Camoflaged in Spell Compendium) Wall of Stone, Mord's Faithful Hound, Cloud Kill, Major Creation, Wall of Stone or Iron, Evards Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Minor Creation, Teleport and Dimension Door just from the PHB and 60% if make save.

Shades has already made the list.