Trying to build an encounter

[molten_dragon]

If you're currently playing in my Skull and Shackles campaign, STAY OUT!

I'm currently running Skull and Shackles using 3.5 rules for my gaming group, and we're getting close to the end. I've made some changes to the final book for those of you who are familiar with it. Basically they'll depose the Hurricane king first, and the battle with the Chelish armada will come after. So the fight with Druvalia Thrune will be the final battle of the whole adventure path. That being said, I want it to be suitably epic. The NPCs as they're written are definitely not enough to give my players a challenge.

The party consists of the following characters, all will be level 15 when they hit this encounter.

Druid
Sorcerer/Stormcaster
Cleric
Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker

There are also two players with leadership, so there are two cohorts, a cleric (mostly a healbot) and a warblade. The cleric also usually has a few skeletons in a bag of holding he pulls out for tough fights. I think currently he has 3 or 4 cyclops skeletons.

All of them are at least moderately optimized.

They'll be fighting a large-scale naval battle before the final showdown, but that uses different rules, so basically they'll enter the big fight fresh with full resources, and that will be their only fight for the day.

So far here's what I've got planned.

Their main enemy will be the Chelish admiral who is a Tiefling Wizard 2/Master Specialist 7/Malconvoker 9. Before the fight she uses draconic polymorph to turn into a pit fiend. Her main schtick will be summoning and battlefield control.

Her bodyguard is a level 14 paladin of tyranny.

I'm also planning to have some kind of devil that she would have bind with Greater Planar Binding before the fight (Both sides know this fight is coming a few weeks in advance). My initial thought was to have it be a pit fiend, but I wasn't sure if that would be too overwhelming or not.

What do you think, is a pit fiend along with the other stuff going to just slaughter them or should it be okay, since it's basically a party of 6 optimized characters? If not a pit fiend, what would you suggest. For flavor reasons it needs to be a devil.

[molten_dragon]

Bumping once in the hopes someone will offer some assistance.

[John Longarrow]

I'd have something like a 12th level wizard/sorcerer IMP for assistance.

Plus she's got to take Leadership and have a 16th level cohort (Just like the paladin should have their 12th level cohort).

Say the big bad wizard goes with a gish build cohort, and the paladin an 11th level cleric/1st level crusader? Gish build goes in with the paladin, imp supports with spells, cleric provides combat healing/support.

[PraxisVetli]

Pit Fiends are pretty ferocious, that seems a little over the top.
Mariliths are good at DPS, feed in those Multiweapon fighting feats and they become mobile chainsaws.
A hyped up Bebilith can be terrifying as well, and they're designed to be "pets/servants" so having in binded/bound would fit your story.
...some Astral Driftmetal barding...

[molten_dragon]

Pit Fiends are pretty ferocious, that seems a little over the top.
Mariliths are good at DPS, feed in those Multiweapon fighting feats and they become mobile chainsaws.
A hyped up Bebilith can be terrifying as well, and they're designed to be "pets/servants" so having in binded/bound would fit your story.
...some Astral Driftmetal barding...

For story reasons it has to be a devil, not a demon. Maybe a barbed devil? They're fairly dangerous. I just don't want everything to end up getting killed by the action economy before they're a threat.

Maybe instead of one CR 18-20 devil I'll go for a couple CR 14-15 ones. That'll help even out the action economy and make it a little bit less of a game of rocket tag than between the party and a pit fiend.

Then again, if I do that, there's going to be a LOT of critters on the board for that last fight, since she's going to be doing a lot of summoning.

[molten_dragon]

I'd have something like a 12th level wizard/sorcerer IMP for assistance.

Plus she's got to take Leadership and have a 16th level cohort (Just like the paladin should have their 12th level cohort).

Say the big bad wizard goes with a gish build cohort, and the paladin an 11th level cleric/1st level crusader? Gish build goes in with the paladin, imp supports with spells, cleric provides combat healing/support.

It makes no sense to have the two of them waste a feat on leadership when I can just have whatever minions I want to have there.

Having a mid-level cleric there to provide buffs and healing during the fight isn't a bad idea though.

[Runestar]

Can polymorph turn you into a pit fiend? It should have a 15HD limit. A cornugon might be a more reasonable choice. One or two should also make for a decent planar binding choice. I find pit fiend too troublesome for the PCs at this stage (because of its regeneration and high AC).

Either that or give yourself 9th lv spells, and use shapechange to turn into a pit fiend.

You technically need to at least be a conjuror3 to qualify for master specialist. Also, what alignment is your tiefling? I ask since I recall that Malconvoker requires that you not be evil.

The bodyguard also seems a tad weak. A lv14 npc vs 4 lv15 PCs? At least make him 18th lv. Trust me - classed npcs are a lot weaker than their cr lets on.

What kind of monsters are we looking at here? I don't see many of the monsters you can summon as really having much of an impact in the fight, given their cr. They would be little better than speed-bumps while your casters pelt the PCs with spells.

So the real battle would still be between the PCs, vs a conjurer, bodyguard, and bound fiend. The rest is really just "difficult terrain".

[Keld Denar]

A pair of Cornugon's could be what you need, rather than a single Pitty. With their respectable AC, regeneration, and best if all, reach and some nasty feats, they will be tough enough. I'd imagine neither the zerker not the druid will fail the save vs the stun from the chain, but Imp Sunder will probably make things uncomfortable for the zerker and Imp Trip might for both of them. Don't forget that they have Dispel Good and Chaos at will, and that both of those spells are first and foremost buffs that give +4 AC and saves

[molten_dragon]

Can polymorph turn you into a pit fiend? It should have a 15HD limit. A cornugon might be a more reasonable choice. One or two should also make for a decent planar binding choice. I find pit fiend too troublesome for the PCs at this stage (because of its regeneration and high AC).

Draconic polymorph has a hit die cap of 20, not 15. And she's an outsider, so she can take outsider forms.


You technically need to at least be a conjuror3 to qualify for master specialist. Also, what alignment is your tiefling? I ask since I recall that Malconvoker requires that you not be evil.

Our group plays with a houserule that you can enter a prestige class the level you meet the requirements, not the level after.

And malconvoker is normally non-evil, but I'm reflavoring it a bit for her since it fits the storyline perfectly. Basically instead of being good and tricking evil fiends to work for her, she's evil, and bargains with them.


The bodyguard also seems a tad weak. A lv14 npc vs 4 lv15 PCs? At least make him 18th lv. Trust me - classed npcs are a lot weaker than their cr lets on.

I thought about maybe adding another level or two onto the bodyguard, but I worried that 2 CR 18s and a CR 20 would be too overwhelming. Maybe I'll up the bodyguard's level and tone down it down from a pit fiend to a horned devil.


What kind of monsters are we looking at here? I don't see many of the monsters you can summon as really having much of an impact in the fight, given their cr. They would be little better than speed-bumps while your casters pelt the PCs with spells.

So the real battle would still be between the PCs, vs a conjurer, bodyguard, and bound fiend. The rest is really just "difficult terrain".[/QUOTE]

Her best summons will be the Fiendish Tyrannosaurus, the Barbed Devil, and the Colossal fiendish monstrous spider. They're going to be buffed pretty heavily due to the malconvoker and master specialist abilities, plus any buffs she casts, so I'm hoping they'll contribute to the fight some. At the very least they'll be big bags of hit points.

[John Longarrow]

Molten_Dragon,
A little tongue in cheek regarding using a real feat for Leadership. More that you need enough targets that present as real targets to keep the PCs from just punching through and killing your main badguy.

In general, having a couple mid level spell casters around to provide support (buffs, healing, area control) will go a long way towards keeping the party from just ganking your main spellcaster.

Toss in a couple damage dealers that can keep the parties casters in check and you start having a decent fight without overwhelming the PCs.

You can also toss in a crew of low level road blocks (read fighter type with tower shield) that can cut down on the speed the party advances. 20 5th level marines won't harm the party, but they can be a mobile piece of terrain that funnels the parties actions while covering for their boss.

[PraxisVetli]

For story reasons it has to be a devil, not a demon. Maybe a barbed devil? They're fairly dangerous. I just don't want everything to end up getting killed by the action economy before they're a threat.

Maybe instead of one CR 18-20 devil I'll go for a couple CR 14-15 ones. That'll help even out the action economy and make it a little bit less of a game of rocket tag than between the party and a pit fiend.

Then again, if I do that, there's going to be a LOT of critters on the board for that last fight, since she's going to be doing a lot of summoning.

Well, I'm looking in the Fiendish Codex, and the Xerfilstyx islooking like a good all-around nuisance. Fast Healing, some DR, a bit of casting (Power word Blind, Insanity, others), moderate melee, a Con Drain grapple and a breath weapon to boot!
Otherwise, them Cornu's really do look nice.

And sorry bout the bebilith, my bad.

[molten_dragon]

Well, I'm looking in the Fiendish Codex, and the Xerfilstyx islooking like a good all-around nuisance. Fast Healing, some DR, a bit of casting (Power word Blind, Insanity, others), moderate melee, a Con Drain grapple and a breath weapon to boot!
Otherwise, them Cornu's really do look nice.

And sorry bout the bebilith, my bad.

I do like that Xerfilstyx. I think I'm going to go with one of those and a Cornugon. That gives me a couple of defenders with a varied set of abilities that due to DR and regeneration should stick around for a few rounds at least. That'll give the PCs 4 main enemies to fight, which should hopefully keep it interesting without making it completely unbeatable.

[Runestar]

Molten_Dragon,
A little tongue in cheek regarding using a real feat for Leadership. More that you need enough targets that present as real targets to keep the PCs from just punching through and killing your main badguy.

In general, having a couple mid level spell casters around to provide support (buffs, healing, area control) will go a long way towards keeping the party from just ganking your main spellcaster.

Toss in a couple damage dealers that can keep the parties casters in check and you start having a decent fight without overwhelming the PCs.

You can also toss in a crew of low level road blocks (read fighter type with tower shield) that can cut down on the speed the party advances. 20 5th level marines won't harm the party, but they can be a mobile piece of terrain that funnels the parties actions while covering for their boss.

The issue I have with your suggestion is that I find high-lv combat already takes long enough as is, without bogging it down with mooks that can't really contribute to combat anyways. Where possible, I think it might be better to rely on as few npcs as possible. 3 seems to be the magic number here.

At this point in time, the enemy spellcaster can pretty much shape the battlefield using her own spells. Maze the enemy cleric, forcecage the fighter, use walls spells to divide and conquer.

[John Longarrow]

Runestar

If this is supposed to be a challenge for a powerful party, scaling back the number of bad guys while upping their power can drag the fight out much longer than easy to run, easy to move low level mooks.

If the players are good and the DM is using a lot of spell effects, working out what areas are under what conditions, who has Line of sight on what, and trying to keep track of which spells end when can take longer than moving 20 pieces and rolling 20 dice.

Trick is to have mooks that don't really count for combat strength but do count as an easy to track piece of terrain. 20 guys with tower shields who move and provide cover is very quick to run. Should only take a couple minutes (until they are destroyed) per round.

It also leaves the characters in the fight, unlike having the BBEG take OUT players (maze/force cage) that leaves players sitting there with nothing to do until the effect ends. Goal is to keep the players involved.