Surprise round discussion

[oOReikaOo]

I've started a thread elsewhere but honestly, when your looking for rule lawyers, this is where you come.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q5vq?Need-help-understanding-surprise-round#24

The question is , when does surprise round ACTUALLY start?

Scenario: No one else around , in stealth behind a target. Would summoning a weapon via an ability that requires a standard action count as your surprise round, OR has combat not even been initiated at this point and the actual surprise round start when you use said weapon to stab said target?

*edit* assuming target is unaware

[Kafana]

The surprise round is the round where combat starts, anything done before that is out of combat.

[Diarmuid]

In theory, a surprise round is the first round where at least 1 member of the opposing forces becomes aware of the other force.

If the actions of those who become aware of the other side do not call attention to themselves, they could take multiple rounds of actions where the other group/members dont actually do anything.

To adjudicate that (assuming I have players who can appropriately not meta-game) I would have everyone roll initiative and just have those not aware of the combat/threat simply take whatever actions/inactions they normally would under those circumstances and apply spot/listen/etc checks as needed to keep checking for awareness.

[Curmudgeon]

In theory, a surprise round is the first round where at least 1 member of the opposing forces becomes aware of the other force.
More specifically, it's when at least one character rolls initiative. (You can become aware of lots of things without going into combat timing; that happens whenever you notice someone on the road into town, for instance.) If you're surprised, you don't get a chance to roll initiative in the surprise round. Until you roll initiative you can't take initiative-dependent actions like Ready.

[Raendyn]

Well, as ppl said the surprise round is when something happens and you have to roll initiative, but not all members of all sides are aware of the upcoming battle.
If all are aware of everyone else then there is no surprise round.

That means that they must have spotted you, and that either them or you try to take an offensive action.

Note that, there are specific restrictions about readying an action out of combat.

Now, I see what you wanna do, you wanna walk behind/around them then summon your blade, slice them and unsummon it.
If enemies are aware of you, then they can also be cautious about you or not, with a spot check they can notice you summoning the blade, if they do you roll initiative, those that havent seen you dont participate in this round and its a surprise round. if all see your blade(and your motives) then there is no surprise round.
If ppl see you, but they don't think that you are gona attack(they dont read your motives) then they are not entitled to roll initiative and so your blade summoning didnt took any combat action, same happens if noone sees you at all.
If this happens then they roll spot when you try to attack and you folow the same procedure, those that spotted you can roll initiative, if not everyone spotted you then there is surprise round.
If noon espotted you and you attack then they roll initiative and the normal round 1 begins after you attack.