General WoD Discussion #3 Third time's the charm - No wait, that sounds too Exalted

[ocel]

Sigh, ah well, I'll write up a better title for our next discussion thread later. Now without further adieu, let's resume where we left off.

Archive: General Thread: #1: Assemble. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207704)
General WoD Discussion #2: It's time to Celebrate! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250029)

[Turalisj]

So, I really wanna play a Mummy game.

Not just any Mummy game, but one that goes from early Egypt to Modern Day.

[Aux-Ash]

So, I really wanna play a Mummy game.

Not just any Mummy game, but one that goes from early Egypt to Modern Day.

:smalleek:

That's... ambitious...

Several sothic cycles, hundreds of times being raised by the Cult...

And I'm not sure how well it'd work... Mummy works best in modern day fleshed out with plenty of flashbacks methinks. Amnesia is a very central theme after all.

[One Tin Soldier]

Sigh, ah well, I'll write up a better title for our next discussion thread later. Now without further adieu, let's resume where we left off.

Archive: General Thread: #1: Assemble. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207704)
General WoD Discussion #2: It's time to Celebrate! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250029)

Personally, I was fond of Rage Against the (God-)Machine.

[SiuiS]

Personally, I was fond of Rage Against the (God-)Machine.

Funny story, actually. I was able to get ahold of 3rdTsTC-WNtTE!, and asked about the transition. I think they said.. Ah, here it is.


I had to do it, you see? I had to!

Rage against the (god) machine, he was... He wasn't real. He wasn't ever real. He was just a figment of our imaginations, man, holding us in tension. A replacement thread, sittin in my spaces, living my life, getting my words! Do you understand?

So I killed him.

I crept up, and when Rage went to pour some drinks, I smashed in his head. I just... I smashed it. Smashed... There were pieces everywhere. He laughed, he laughed at me. I came back, and he found me, bleeding and naked, and he wore my clothes, had my wife, visited my friends... Rage Against looked down on me, shivering and huddled while I grabbed at the cobblestones and pleaded for just... Just... For just scraps, man! Just for scraps is all! I wanted... Something. And... And he laughed.

Pieces of his skull everywhere... But I kept... I kept smashing. I could still hear him, laughing. Laughing in my head! I was crying, and that cobblestone... I don't remember it being so heavy, y'know? But, like, after it came down a fourth time, I couldn't raise it a fifth. So I took those pieces of his skill, only they were clean and white like something porcelain, and they moved, there was filigree like old black-and-white rotoscope cartoons on the side and they moved like tiny little worms... I took them and I buried them, down at the corner of Smith and Lane.

No one... No one's noticed. Not really. My wife still thinks I'm Rage Against, I guess. And my friends. They always want me to go out and do things I, me, would never do. And sometimes, sometimes, people... They look at me, right? And they get this look. With the eyebrows, like they're confused, disappointed... And they ask, "Where is Rage Against the (god) Machine?" And they smile, and I can hear that laugh again, and I bury Them at smith and Lane, right? I've still got that cobblestone...

So, yeah. Uh, don't ask?

[Mono Vertigo]

... I feel like my Clarity dropped by at least 3 points. And I'm a mortal.

[One Tin Soldier]

Funny story, actually. I was able to get ahold of 3rdTsTC-WNtTE!, and asked about the transition. I think they said.. Ah, here it is.



So, yeah. Uh, don't ask?

Um, ok. I won't. Note to self: don't consult low-Integrity individuals about thread titles.

[Sith_Happens]

Funny story, actually. I was able to get ahold of 3rdTsTC-WNtTE!, and asked about the transition. I think they said.. Ah, here it is.

So, yeah. Uh, don't ask?

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/087/e/1/profile_picture_by_watfaceplz-d4u7trn.png

[sktarq]

Funny story, actually. I was able to get ahold of 3rdTsTC-WNtTE!, and asked about the transition. I think they said.. Ah, here it is.

So, yeah. Uh, don't ask?

That story tastes like a lemon cracker....maybe with a bit of vanilla.


I wish I was joking.

[SiuiS]

Um, ok. I won't. Note to self: don't consult low-Integrity individuals about thread titles.

Ouch XD


That story tastes like a lemon cracker....maybe with a bit of vanilla.


I wish I was joking.

Huh. I get the lemon vanilla, but the cracker part throws me. Ah well. Everyone's synesthesia is different.

Sorry about the Clarity, Musashi! D= guess that's the downside of GMC rules, outside stuff affects you...

[Sir_Mopalot]

So from a few pages back, there was the whole idea of a vampire propelling itself through space by vomiting blood, which I thought was an amusing mental image. Obviously the kind of thrust we were talking about was ludicrously high by RAW, so I decided to derive the "real" numbers. I don't have the book in question, so I figured it out like so:

The Vampire weighs 72 kg "full" of blood.
1 Vitae is .71 L (the average human has 7 vitae of blood and the average human has 5 L of blood.
Blood has a density of 1.06 kg/L, so we have .75 kg of blood per vitae.
I figured the speed at which the blood is ejected is probably about the same as a sneeze, which is about 100 mph, or 44.5 m/s.
Using this calculator (http://www.strout.net/info/science/delta-v/), I plug in the numbers to discover that we have a Delta-V (change in velocity) of .47 m/s.


So the weight of the blood and the weight of the vampire are constants. How fast would the blood have to be ejected to accelerate your vampire up to 2 miles per second? Well, I ran the numbers, and it's just a little under 305,000 meters per second. Or, y'know, just about the speed of light.

This has been "Overthinking Vampire Physics". Please go about your business.

[Mewtarthio]

What if you've got a young vampire who can still feed off animals? Most animals have significantly less Vitae than humans, so you could end up with more blood per Vitae, particularly if you nabbed a large animal, such as a hippo (Don't laugh; ghoul hippopotami are terrifying).

[The Glyphstone]

Normally hippopotami are terrifying. I can't imagine being ghouled makes them any less scary/dangerous/ill-tempered.

[One Tin Soldier]

So from a few pages back, there was the whole idea of a vampire propelling itself through space by vomiting blood, which I thought was an amusing mental image. Obviously the kind of thrust we were talking about was ludicrously high by RAW, so I decided to derive the "real" numbers. I don't have the book in question, so I figured it out like so:

The Vampire weighs 72 kg "full" of blood.
1 Vitae is .71 L (the average human has 7 vitae of blood and the average human has 5 L of blood.
Blood has a density of 1.06 kg/L, so we have .75 kg of blood per vitae.
I figured the speed at which the blood is ejected is probably about the same as a sneeze, which is about 100 mph, or 44.5 m/s.
Using this calculator (http://www.strout.net/info/science/delta-v/), I plug in the numbers to discover that we have a Delta-V (change in velocity) of .47 m/s.


So the weight of the blood and the weight of the vampire are constants. How fast would the blood have to be ejected to accelerate your vampire up to 2 miles per second? Well, I ran the numbers, and it's just a little under 305,000 meters per second. Or, y'know, just about the speed of light.

This has been "Overthinking Vampire Physics". Please go about your business.

I'm pretty sure that the "Speed 1" that the devotion lists is supposed to be character speed, not ship speed. So approximately .3 m/s. If anything, that sounds too slow for a supernatural power that you pay XP for.

[Sir_Mopalot]

The real slap in the face of science, though, is the fact that that's your acceleration per use. Because there's no friction in space. Although I can understand not wanting to introduce vector physics into Vampire.

[Sith_Happens]

And White Wolf was almost ready to unveil Catgirl: the Meowing too. Thanks Playground.:smallsigh:

[SiuiS]

And White Wolf was almost ready to unveil Catgirl: the Meowing too. Thanks Playground.:smallsigh:

That would be an awesome game if they could actually devise a reason for it to exist.

[Lady Serpentine]

That would be an awesome game if they could actually devise a reason for it to exist.

Maybe a fansplat? I know there are three that get semi-regular play on here, so clearly they can be successful.

[Lord Raziere]

That would be an awesome game if they could actually devise a reason for it to exist.

first we just have to figure out what horrible curse they are forever haunted by that makes their life a living hell.

something about catgirls dying to physics discussions? or something science-related….

[Guancyto]

Whatever the fansplat might be, it needs to be compatible with Princess the Hopeful so there can be magical girl catgirls.

FUND IT.

[The Glyphstone]

Would Geniuses be their default antagonist?

[Lord Raziere]

Would Geniuses be their default antagonist?

nope, Geniuses aren't really scientists either. their stuff breaks down in the presence of real science too remember? a normal person breaks down their stuff fast, but a scientist even faster.

[Selrahc]

Normally hippopotami are terrifying. I can't imagine being ghouled makes them any less scary/dangerous/ill-tempered.

It definitely does. Ghouled animals become more placid and submissive until somebody angers their master.

[SiuiS]

It definitely does. Ghouled animals become more placid and submissive until somebody angers their master.

And then your avatar was hilarious

[Mewtarthio]

first we just have to figure out what horrible curse they are forever haunted by that makes their life a living hell.

Mortals that come too close to them suffer severe mental degradation, to the point were they can just coo and babble in babytalk. This renders them incapable of interacting with mortal society except to get affirmations that they are SUCH A CUTE KITTY YES YOU ARE!

[The Glyphstone]

It definitely does. Ghouled animals become more placid and submissive until somebody angers their master.

Note to self: Ban Nosferatu from acquiring sewer-dwelling hippopotami ghouls.

[Lady Serpentine]

Mortals that come too close to them suffer severe mental degradation, to the point were they can just coo and babble in babytalk. This renders them incapable of interacting with mortal society except to get affirmations that they are SUCH A CUTE KITTY YES YOU ARE!

...That's actually exceedingly creepy, but at the same time, it makes three splats that have some kind of thing that makes them incapable of normal interactions with humanity.

[Amechra]

You could base it entirely on proximity. (http://xkcd.com/231/)

Heck, it could work...

[Sith_Happens]

Note to self: Ban Nosferatu from acquiring sewer-dwelling hippopotami ghouls.

Note to self: Start ghouling honey badgers.:smalltongue:

[Lady Serpentine]

You could base it entirely on proximity. (http://xkcd.com/231/)

Heck, it could work...

Still the question of if we want to do that, especially since it's pretty close to Leviathan, but yeah.

[MugaSofer]

This has never stopped anyone before, but what can catgirls do? Beyond worm their way into an astonishing number of fictional universes, because catgirls?

[Lady Serpentine]

Panther Line:

Those of the Panther Line are quiet and attuned to the shadows, seeing better than most catgirls in darkness; though they have poor colorvision in such conditions, they may ignore up to a 2-die penalty for poor lighting, and gain the benefit of the 8-again rule on all Stealth checks.

Those of this Line have an affinity for [Contract/Discipline/etc. Equivalent - Name?] of the Hunter, and three main Litters [Placeholder - Again, name?] they may fall under.

[Sir_Mopalot]

Maybe worming themselves into fictional universes is what they do? Maybe a super-expanded version of Changeling's Talecrafting?

[Lady Serpentine]

Maybe worming themselves into fictional universes is what they do? Maybe a super-expanded version of Changeling's Talecrafting?

Hm... Be hard to make a game around that, though. I dunno, might work, but... Still. How would you do that, really?

[Lord Raziere]

maybe they break the laws of physics in various ways?

like defy gravity and do various other stunts that wouldn't work in the real world, like the stuff that science nerds like to point out wouldn't work and thus metaphorically kill a catgirl when they do.

so when scientists point out that a catgirl shouldn't be able to do that…their powers fail? hm, might be too narrow for WoD...

[MugaSofer]

Maybe worming themselves into fictional universes is what they do? Maybe a super-expanded version of Changeling's Talecrafting?
Hm... Be hard to make a game around that, though. I dunno, might work, but... Still. How would you do that, really?

Meta-template? A template that applies over other Major Templates? Someone did mention Catgirl Princesses, after all.

In other news...


Hello, Playground!

Regrettably, our Genius: the Transgression play-by-post game might come to a halt now that our ST left - thanks to him being so sick he can't crawl out of the bed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16056576&postcount=182) -, and we have no loose players to fill in.

Hence, we are looking for a nWoD Storyteller who could run it for us. In the above link, the precedessor offered the notes to those who ask. Here are the links (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287372) to our current threads and character sheets.

The group itself is long-going(all the more reason to not let it go to waste), though a large bunch of immigrants from other roleplaying sites joined recently, myself included. Wonders take time to design, so we'd be really dissapointed to scratch the whole shebang... you know, I will stop avoiding the issue. Should someone not come along soon, we'll turn into sad mutant chemo-zombie pandas for all eternity.

http://lolfunnymeme.com/wp-content/uploads/sadpanda.jpg
He's all gears on the inside. A terrible, fluffy curse.

You don't want that, do you?

Anyone interested?

[darkhunterjag]

Note to self: Start ghouling honey badgers.:smalltongue:

Oh dear god...

[Mono Vertigo]

On the list of horrifying things to ghoul, I'd add:
- mosquitoes
- spiders
- chimpanzees
- more spiders crows
- baboons
- spiders spiders spiders scorpions

[The Random NPC]

On the list of horrifying things to ghoul, I'd add:
- mosquitoes
- spiders
- chimpanzees
- more spiders crows
- baboons
- spiders spiders spiders scorpions

Don't forget snakes, they do bashing and and equal amount of Vitae damage to vampires.

[CN the Logos]

Best things to ghoul:

Grizzly bears: They're already pretty tameable compared to other large predators and capable over running thirty miles an hour in addition to their massive strength. One with magical powers is almost hilarious overkill.

Shark (tiger preferred, but any sufficiently large species will work): You're undead, so you can hide underwater indefinitely. Hide a large sarcophagus in an underwater cave or something hard to casually find, then set a ghouled tiger shark or three to guard you while you sleep.

Bearshark: If you can convince your ST to let you convert Vicissitude to NWoD using the V:tM conversion guide, this would probably be the best thing ever. Blame any resulting Masquerade breeches on mad scientists. :smallcool:

...On a quasi-related note, my wife finally saw Jaws for the first time a couple of months ago, and conversation after the movie led us to an epiphany. It's the same shark in all four movies. Bruce somehow acquired the slasher template (given some allowance for homebrew emulating the slasher ability to return for sequels despite being totally killed onscreen), or is possibly bound to an especially confused Geist. He explodes when defeated because the ST is using a Dudes of Legend style hack that causes evil beings to explode when defeated.

(This has been another episode of Random Thoughts with CN the Logos. Tune in next [whenever] to hear me rant about how blood-bathing, harvesting, and maybe being a patchwork (wo)man should really be a merit rather than a template. :smalltongue:)

[Lady Serpentine]

...Masquerade breeches...

*giggles*

"Yes, I really am Mr. Secrecy-pants. Your point?"

Ahem.

On a different note... There was actually a surprisingly positive response amongst my friends to making Catgirl as a serious thing. Is anyone else actually interested in that idea?

[Yuki Akuma]

On a different note... There was actually a surprisingly positive response amongst my friends to making Catgirl as a serious thing. Is anyone else actually interested in that idea?

Catgirl: the Meowing would be a hilarious fansplat.

I'm not sure about it being a 'serious' thing, but it should definitely be a thing. :smalltongue:

[Lady Serpentine]

Catgirl: the Meowing would be a hilarious fansplat.

I'm not sure about it being a 'serious' thing, but it should definitely be a thing. :smalltongue:

Mm. Not entirely serious, no. The Kith-equivalents are Litters, at this point, for instance. On the other hand, it is still a fairly dark thing, in some ways, and we're trying to not just make it a joke-splat.

There's actually a bit of work done at the moment, if you'd like to see it?

[Turalisj]

Catgirl: the Meowing would be a hilarious fansplat.

I'm not sure about it being a 'serious' thing, but it should definitely be a thing. :smalltongue:

Like Princess? :smalltongue:

[MugaSofer]

You know what this conversation needs? Another random quasi-humorous fansplat idea!

In Voice: The Temptation (title needs work) you play a split personality/not!goetic demon. Maybe you were put into an artifact via magic, maybe you're the shattered remains of someone who saw a little too much of the WoD. Maybe you're the poor sod who ended up carrying all the other PCs around in his head.

In other words, you play Gollum. All of you.

(The requisite party-name would be a "body" or "collective", with a vague note that they tend to band together in the same unfortunate individual for company, since generally nobody else can hear them and they get lonely. And maybe try to evoke a sense of unlocking pre-existing potential for the powers, somehow?)

Shamelessly ripped off - I mean, inspired by this (http://wso.williams.edu/~msulliva/campaigns/john/index.html), which is copyrighted, so I guess that could possibly be an issue.

[Sir_Mopalot]

Mm. Not entirely serious, no. The Kith-equivalents are Litters, at this point, for instance. On the other hand, it is still a fairly dark thing, in some ways, and we're trying to not just make it a joke-splat.

There's actually a bit of work done at the moment, if you'd like to see it?

I'd take a look, dunno if I have any good ideas.

[illyahr]

Bastet. No seriously, cat-folk werecreatures in WoD are called Basted.

You could also read the Hengeyokai book. It has Kitsune (were-foxes) and those would be pretty easy to mod into cat-girls. :smalltongue:

[Lady Serpentine]

Bastet. No seriously, cat-folk werecreatures in WoD are called Basted.

You could also read the Hengeyokai book. It has Kitsune (were-foxes) and those would be pretty easy to mod into cat-girls. :smalltongue:

Beat you to it. There's already a Bastet Litter. :smallwink:

As for the Hengeyokai book, bit harder. That takes acquiring it, you see.

[lightningcat]

Bastet. No seriously, cat-folk werecreatures in WoD are called Basted.

You could also read the Hengeyokai book. It has Kitsune (were-foxes) and those would be pretty easy to mod into cat-girls. :smalltongue:

Bastet
Not Basted. Important difference

[Lady Serpentine]

Bastet
Not Basted. Important difference

You mean the difference between the guy talking about that 'Cat basted' that just broke his jaw and a reference to the Egyptian goddess of warfare?

[Amechra]

Does anyone know if there is a God Machine hack for the Dark Hero template? I've been looking for one, and I've not been able to find one.

[illyahr]

Bastet
Not Basted. Important difference

I got it right the first time I typed it. :smalltongue:

Kitsune are actually pretty cool. They don't regenerate like werewolves do (all damage is aggravated) but they are immune to silver and they don't cause chaos when they transform in public. Most people just assume they are cosplayers. :smallbiggrin:

[SaurOps]

I got it right the first time I typed it. :smalltongue:

Kitsune are actually pretty cool. They don't regenerate like werewolves do (all damage is aggravated) but they are immune to silver and they don't cause chaos when they transform in public. Most people just assume they are cosplayers. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, non-bashing damage is lethal for the foxes, and they make sure to never transform in public because of the lack of Delirium induction. So speaketh the production text of the W20 Changing Breeds book.

[The Random NPC]

Actually, non-bashing damage is lethal for the foxes, and they make sure to never transform in public because of the lack of Delirium induction. So speaketh the production text of the W20 Changing Breeds book.

Wait, aren't there only 3 types of damage, bashing, lethal, and aggravated?

[The Glyphstone]

Wait, aren't there only 3 types of damage, bashing, lethal, and aggravated?

Yeah. I think, if I parsed it right, he's saying that Kitsune simply don't take Aggravated damage at all no matter the source - if it's Bashing, it's Bashing, otherwise it counts as Lethal.

[illyahr]

Yeah. I think, if I parsed it right, he's saying that Kitsune simply don't take Aggravated damage at all no matter the source - if it's Bashing, it's Bashing, otherwise it counts as Lethal.

I must've remembered that wrong. Ok, they don't take aggravated damage (unless the souce normally deals aggravated, such as crushing), but they can't regenerate wounds so they take damage like humans.

As for the Delerium thing, it depends on the ST. My wife ran a Kitsune who left her ears and tail out for comfort. She wore a hairband with holes in it for the ears so everyone she met just assumed she was dressed up. :smallbiggrin:

[Leliel]

Hey, Guildhalls of the Deathless, the first sourcebook for Mummy, is out on PDF. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/119830/Guildhalls-of-the-Deathless?term=guildhalls+of)

If you're a fan of Mummy, you should probably get it. Gives the guilds much-needed depth and character, and then some.

[SaurOps]

I must've remembered that wrong. Ok, they don't take aggravated damage (unless the souce normally deals aggravated, such as crushing), but they can't regenerate wounds so they take damage like humans.

Aggravated is non-bashing. It gets shunted to lethal for the foxes, because it wouldn't matter anyway. The only time this setup changes is when a fox activates that Gift that allows them to regenerate like a Garou.



As for the Delerium thing, it depends on the ST. My wife ran a Kitsune who left her ears and tail out for comfort. She wore a hairband with holes in it for the ears so everyone she met just assumed she was dressed up. :smallbiggrin:

There are too many ways for that to go wrong for it to be commonplace. Such as if the wind blows past and reveals that you have no human ears under your hair and/or that your tail is actually growing out of your spine, for example.

[illyahr]

Aggravated is non-bashing. It gets shunted to lethal for the foxes, because it wouldn't matter anyway. The only time this setup changes is when a fox activates that Gift that allows them to regenerate like a Garou.

No, lethal is non-bashing. Aggravated is damage that is un-soakable. It is so full-body painful that it can't be ignored. Werewolves take aggravated damage from silver as it is extremely toxic to them, a vampire can't resist damage from sunlight because it burns them to ash, etc.

[Lady Serpentine]

No, lethal is non-bashing.

All damage that is not bashing is non-bashing damage. That is, in fact, what 'non-bashing', as a term, would mean. Where are you getting that only Lethal counts...?

[SaurOps]

No, lethal is non-bashing. Aggravated is damage that is un-soakable. It is so full-body painful that it can't be ignored. Werewolves take aggravated damage from silver as it is extremely toxic to them, a vampire can't resist damage from sunlight because it burns them to ash, etc.

Except that many other sources of aggravated damage - fire and acid, for example - can be soaked by Garou in their more resilient shapes. Unsoakable is an entirely different thing, a qualifier or rider which can include bashing and lethal damage.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So in a few months I play to start a longish-running Hunter the Vigil chronicle about a small town in Texas, which is totally not inspired by my own early life or anything.

I want to get a lot of possible plot hooks set up beforehand, so I was wondering if anyone had any creative ideas for semi-rural World of Darkness monsters and creepies that they'd like to share. Some of my current ideas include:

-A small clan of vampires posing as otherwise perfectly friendly local rich folk (they got kicked out of a much larger city a few decades ago and don't have the numbers to go back yet. Kind of like everyone who buys a McMansion.)
-Local spiritualist author who actually is a witch
-Little kids going off into the woods and coming back with extremely detailed Narnia fantasies
-The Long Night causing trouble as rival hunters
-Redneck pawnbrokers. Don't go into the basement.
-Something with werewolves seems mandatory but I know nothing about either version
-Wal-mart

It's a bit thin, now that I look at it, so some help would be nice.

[illyahr]

Except that many other sources of aggravated damage - fire and acid, for example - can be soaked by Garou in their more resilient shapes. Unsoakable is an entirely different thing, a qualifier or rider which can include bashing and lethal damage.

Ok, my mistake on that one.

My initial point was that Kitsune aren't weak against anything like werewolves are weak against silver. They don't have the defensive abilities of other werefolk, but they don't have any supernatural weaknesses either. I did mention in a previous post that they don't take aggravated damage unless the source itself deals aggravated. I gave the example of crushing, but fire and acid deal it also.

[Lady Serpentine]

Hm... Stat up a thing with a corporeal form, but the Possession and Terrify Numina, adapted to run on normal stats. Make it so the corporeal form only manifests after it's been forced out of someone. Depending on the theme you want to go for with it, make it vulnerable to either blessed or cold iron weapons.

I'd suggest using Resolve+Manipulation for the first and Presence+Manipulation for the latter. Terrify, of course, only works when its body comes out of someone.

Make it size four or so, give it two points of natural armor (scales, tough ones) and claws (maybe 2L?).

That work?

Edit:

It's not mechanically complete, of course. But I think it should be a good basic outline to fill in.

[Sith_Happens]

It's not mechanically complete, of course. But I think it should be a good basic outline to fill in.

An outline for what? I don't see any recent posts asking about scaly monsters that possess people.:smallconfused:

[illyahr]

An outline for what? I don't see any recent posts asking about scaly monsters that possess people.:smallconfused:

I think she was trying to provide a Big Bad for Nerd-o-Rama's Hunter: the Vigil campaign.

[MugaSofer]

So in a few months I play to start a longish-running Hunter the Vigil chronicle about a small town in Texas, which is totally not inspired by my own early life or anything.

I want to get a lot of possible plot hooks set up beforehand, so I was wondering if anyone had any creative ideas for semi-rural World of Darkness monsters and creepies that they'd like to share. Some of my current ideas include:

-A small clan of vampires posing as otherwise perfectly friendly local rich folk (they got kicked out of a much larger city a few decades ago and don't have the numbers to go back yet. Kind of like everyone who buys a McMansion.)
-Local spiritualist author who actually is a witch
-Little kids going off into the woods and coming back with extremely detailed Narnia fantasies
-The Long Night causing trouble as rival hunters
-Redneck pawnbrokers. Don't go into the basement.
-Something with werewolves seems mandatory but I know nothing about either version
-Wal-mart

It's a bit thin, now that I look at it, so some help would be nice.

Firstly, the all-important question: is this town on a hellmouth?


Secondly, werewolves! Ah, werewolves. They are a touch bland. In this version, at least, they're half-Spirit and generally interact with and derive their power from Spirits, acting as sort of border patrols ensuring the spirit world and our own dont screw each other up too much; and Spirits are awesome, so use them and maybe have a werewolf cameo.

Thirdly ... let's see, I don't know a whole lot about the area in question, but are there farms? Weird farms are a good bet.

Working through the splats, you can always stick in some God-Machine Infrastructure, although that might be a bit too heavy for your poor hunter group, drowning out everything else.

Does "witch" here mean "awakened Mage" or one of the various less-OPed alternatives?

The Bridge to Terabithia hook is good, and if you have access to Changeling you'll know there's an astounding amount of variety contained therin; although I'm not sure how well that integrates with Hunters.

Prometheans should be kept rare, but as a one-off thing, "a Promethean shows up" is a good plot all on it's own.

Mummies don't exactly fit the concept, but other dead things ... angry Ghosts are simply, core, and effective; just declare something an Anchor, stat it up and away you go.

Then there are fan splats, which probably fit better in Hunter than most games, since the anything-could-be-out-there angle works well. I, personally, love Genius: the Transgression with a burning passion, and an isolated madman building twisted blasphemies of science is fun. Also, it's fairly good for doing random weirdness.

Leviathan cults are good, even if the creatures themselves wouldn't fit ... actually, come to think, Mummy cults are a big thing so you could have one of those, but Leviathan cults are more sort of fitting for the setting?

Don't use Princess in a Hunter game.

I think there's a Dragon fansplat? That seems like it would go well with hunters, and hey, I'm sure there could be one chained up in someone's basement (dragons can also be done with Changeling, Genius, Werewolf, Leviathan and Mage, possibly more.)

</longanswer>


An outline for what? I don't see any recent posts asking about scaly monsters that possess people.:smallconfused:

You know, I was just about to ask that. Wrong thread? Missing some context from the beginning?

Cool though, whatever it is.

[SiuiS]

No, lethal is non-bashing. Aggravated is damage that is un-soakable. It is so full-body painful that it can't be ignored. Werewolves take aggravated damage from silver as it is extremely toxic to them, a vampire can't resist damage from sunlight because it burns them to ash, etc.

Which world of darkness are we talking, here?

[Lady Serpentine]

You know, I was just about to ask that. Wrong thread? Missing some context from the beginning?

Cool though, whatever it is.

The latter, I think; I was offering up an idea for a creepy thing that could serve both as a combat challenge (armored beast that hops between bodies) and plot hook (something's making these people go crazy and (for instance, going for a larcenous fey angle) steal jewlery from places) for Nerd-o-Rama, as was guessed a little up-thread.

Glad you liked it, by the way~

[Neverman]

I want to get a lot of possible plot hooks set up beforehand, so I was wondering if anyone had any creative ideas for semi-rural World of Darkness monsters and creepies that they'd like to share.

Try thinking outside the box. The things you've listed are mainstays of World of Darkness, but the players will eventually figure out what they're dealing with and that will put them at ease. You can use anything from other gamelines that's not a main splat: Ghosts, Gargoyles, Homunculi, Spirits, Claimed, Abmortals, Hobgoblins, Angels, Demons, anything from mage. Also, you can take any story you know, supernatural or not, file the serial numbers off and throw it in.

For instance:
That brain-dependent villain from Sliders? How would he work in low tier enviorment? A disgruntled veteran could find a way to prolong his life by stealing souls. He would leave sociopaths and catatonics in his wake. The characters could see a beloved NPC slide into madness. The investigation would lead to the characters old army friends, who could be his first victims, or know how he got to be the way he was. He would work as an Abmortal or Tremere Lich.

That one monster from Final Fantasy series? It deals damage propportional to number of monsters killed by the player. In World of Darkness it would seek out killers and inflict on them the same wounds the have once killed with. He would function as a dangerous asset or an ironic threat. It could be a Hobgoblin, or just about anything else.

The baddie from Phantasm? This higher tier villain moves from town to town and kills them off, ships off the reanimated bodies of the inhabitants and moves on. The film series has lots of strangeness and unique visuals. You can reliably stat him, but you never get to know just what he is. You can make him fold, but you can never kill him. Also, by becoming a challenge you help him keep boredom at bay. He might want to stay in touch.

[The Glyphstone]

Some of the sideline books are great for this - Antagonists, Mirrors, Second Sight, Immortals - odd things outside of the Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Changeling dominance quartet of NWoD, but already formatted up in NWoD-friendly rules. A Blood Bather, for instance, could make for a delightfully creepy and horrifying antagonist.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Wow, that's a lot more advice than I was expecting. Thanks, guys. I'll work with these ideas, and definitely take a look at the expanded splats for weirder monsters. I do recall now that my most metagamey player has done Requiem LARP, so I'll stick to the one set of Vampire villains and try to confuse him with the more obscure stuff. A proper Hunter game should be about forcing the players and characters both to learn new terrifying stuff from scratch, right? Well, a proper Tier 1 one. Two specific notes to the biggest post:


Firstly, the all-important question: is this town on a hellmouth?


I said it was in Texas, right?


Don't use Princess in a Hunter game.

Of course not, then I'd have to let my wife play one.

[Selrahc]

Some of the sideline books are great for this - Antagonists, Mirrors, Second Sight, Immortals - odd things outside of the Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Changeling dominance quartet of NWoD, but already formatted up in NWoD-friendly rules. A Blood Bather, for instance, could make for a delightfully creepy and horrifying antagonist.

Skinthieves is another one.

[Lord Raziere]

hey guys, I think I got a good intro to catgirl: the meowing:


Introduction:
You are a glitch in reality. the normal physical laws of the universe don't apply to you. Well at least some of them. you can defy gravity, bend light, and other such things. Except your also a glitch in reality. your not exactly hated by the universe or anything, but you aren't exactly supposed to be a part of its functioning. your a bug in its vast system, but your not harmful unless you choose to be. The real problem is that there is a force of beings who like the universe to function properly. We do to, but they are kind of like the physics police. Literally. They go around making sure that the laws of physics is enforced and keep everything from being too glitchy and buggy- because if it becomes too buggy, their only choice will be to cause The Great Reset, thus causing reality to return to normal functioning but basically killing everyone in the process and replacing us with different people, and no one wants that, but the alternative to the Great Reset is the universe being destroyed, no continuation at all.

this physics police? are there for a good reason: all the other glitches in reality. We are not so bad compared to the various other glitches out there. these other glitches do things like teleport halves of people into random places, or turn the ground the walk on into molten lava, and thats the physical stuff, the subtle ones screw peoples minds up and drive them insane. However the physics police are not discriminating. We catgirls? are also glitches, physics criminals, whatever you want to call us, and they want to wipe us out like all the other glitches. We are caught between a rock and hard place. On one hand there are harmful glitches screwing up reality, on the other are physics police who think we are no better. We are basically caught in the middle of a war for reality, and one side sucks, the other won't let us join them.

On the other hand though, be too flagrant with reality-defying tricks and you start screwing up stuff. You might cause an alleyway to suddenly become this weird inward spiral, or an insane copy of a person to come into existence, or chunks of a car to suddenly stop existing, or people to suddenly switch heads, things that aren't supposed to happen at all, for no rhyme or reason because of your glitches. Every time you use your glitchy tricks, it causes ripples through reality and disrupt its natural processes, if those ripples are too big the disruption turns nasty.

Of course the physics police have ways to clean that up and make sure things get back to normal, but the fact of the matter is that they are still cleaning up your mess, and every time they have to do so they mark it down as another crime to punish you for. Thus perpetuating the physics police assumption that we are just as bad as the guys who do such things intentionally. So, keep it on the down-low. Every time you do stuff like that, you make it harder for the rest of us.

How do we solve this problem you ask? We don't know. We are just criminals of reality in all of our black markets, underground dealings and freedom in the shadows. We are just trying to get by and enjoy our strange glitchy existence. Sure solving this great cosmic problem of glitches and the proper functioning of reality is great and all, but most of us have to deal with the day-to-day stuff like getting things done for the Gravitus Mafia or avoiding the Gangs of Entropy. Sure its an existence full of distrust, violence and conflict, but its also an existence where we can do cool tricks and gain cool trinkets and items that your normally would not have- like these here boots? they allow me to walk on walls. Sometimes all this glitching turns up stuff like this and we snag it before it can be repaired by the physics police. illegal glitch goods, very profitable in catgirl markets.

wait what? Your asking how I became a catgirl? eh, well see every experience is different. some catgirls claim they are fully formed from nothing, some claim they were once human, but here is the thing, since we are living glitches, we don't actually know what the real experience is. Those glitches extend to our memory. The moment you glitched into a catgirl could either be the time you were born with all the memories of a human that never was, or when a human got glitched and got all their memories erased or replaced. We just know that we are here, that we are glitches and that we are not supposed to be here. join the club. For some, the glitches even extend to their ID's and such, so how can we trust any of it?

[SaurOps]

Which world of darkness are we talking, here?

The talk was about W:tA.

[Neverman]

I do recall now that my most metagamey player has done Requiem LARP, so I'll stick to the one set of Vampire villains and try to confuse him with the more obscure stuff. A proper Hunter game should be about forcing the players and characters both to learn new terrifying stuff from scratch, right? Well, a proper Tier 1 one.
Feel free to share the juiciest tidbits from the sessions. I, for one, recharge by feeding off second-hand traumas.

[SiuiS]

The talk was about W:tA.

Good thing I asked, then. I was gonna make a fool o' mesel'.

[MugaSofer]

hey guys, I think I got a good intro to catgirl: the meowing:


Introduction:
You are a glitch in reality. the normal physical laws of the universe don't apply to you. Well at least some of them. you can defy gravity, bend light, and other such things. Except your also a glitch in reality. your not exactly hated by the universe or anything, but you aren't exactly supposed to be a part of its functioning. your a bug in its vast system, but your not harmful unless you choose to be. The real problem is that there is a force of beings who like the universe to function properly. We do to, but they are kind of like the physics police. Literally. They go around making sure that the laws of physics is enforced and keep everything from being too glitchy and buggy- because if it becomes too buggy, their only choice will be to cause The Great Reset, thus causing reality to return to normal functioning but basically killing everyone in the process and replacing us with different people, and no one wants that, but the alternative to the Great Reset is the universe being destroyed, no continuation at all.

this physics police? are there for a good reason: all the other glitches in reality. We are not so bad compared to the various other glitches out there. these other glitches do things like teleport halves of people into random places, or turn the ground the walk on into molten lava, and thats the physical stuff, the subtle ones screw peoples minds up and drive them insane. However the physics police are not discriminating. We catgirls? are also glitches, physics criminals, whatever you want to call us, and they want to wipe us out like all the other glitches. We are caught between a rock and hard place. On one hand there are harmful glitches screwing up reality, on the other are physics police who think we are no better. We are basically caught in the middle of a war for reality, and one side sucks, the other won't let us join them.

On the other hand though, be too flagrant with reality-defying tricks and you start screwing up stuff. You might cause an alleyway to suddenly become this weird inward spiral, or an insane copy of a person to come into existence, or chunks of a car to suddenly stop existing, or people to suddenly switch heads, things that aren't supposed to happen at all, for no rhyme or reason because of your glitches. Every time you use your glitchy tricks, it causes ripples through reality and disrupt its natural processes, if those ripples are too big the disruption turns nasty.

Of course the physics police have ways to clean that up and make sure things get back to normal, but the fact of the matter is that they are still cleaning up your mess, and every time they have to do so they mark it down as another crime to punish you for. Thus perpetuating the physics police assumption that we are just as bad as the guys who do such things intentionally. So, keep it on the down-low. Every time you do stuff like that, you make it harder for the rest of us.

How do we solve this problem you ask? We don't know. We are just criminals of reality in all of our black markets, underground dealings and freedom in the shadows. We are just trying to get by and enjoy our strange glitchy existence. Sure solving this great cosmic problem of glitches and the proper functioning of reality is great and all, but most of us have to deal with the day-to-day stuff like getting things done for the Gravitus Mafia or avoiding the Gangs of Entropy. Sure its an existence full of distrust, violence and conflict, but its also an existence where we can do cool tricks and gain cool trinkets and items that your normally would not have- like these here boots? they allow me to walk on walls. Sometimes all this glitching turns up stuff like this and we snag it before it can be repaired by the physics police. illegal glitch goods, very profitable in catgirl markets.

wait what? Your asking how I became a catgirl? eh, well see every experience is different. some catgirls claim they are fully formed from nothing, some claim they were once human, but here is the thing, since we are living glitches, we don't actually know what the real experience is. Those glitches extend to our memory. The moment you glitched into a catgirl could either be the time you were born with all the memories of a human that never was, or when a human got glitched and got all their memories erased or replaced. We just know that we are here, that we are glitches and that we are not supposed to be here. join the club. For some, the glitches even extend to their ID's and such, so how can we trust any of it?


I'm getting strong Mage: the Ascension vibes. Only without the bits of Mage I don't like ... I kind of want to see the Seers written up from this reality moderators POV.

EDIT: Incidentally, has anyone done a reskin of Werewolf to fill the "wizard" slot occupied by Mage? I mean, you'd have to replace the shapeshifting, but the rest seems like it would go well with an old-school warlock type.

[Cirrylius]

Leviathan cults are good, even if the creatures themselves wouldn't fit ... actually, come to think, Mummy cults are a big thing so you could have one of those, but Leviathan cults are more sort of fitting for the setting?

Something washes up from the gulf. And then gets up and starts walking inland.

...or are eldritch oil-spill-awakened abominations too passe?

[Lord Raziere]

I'm getting strong Mage: the Ascension vibes. Only without the bits of Mage I don't like ... I kind of want to see the Seers written up from this reality moderators POV.


Son, don't compare us to them. Ours is a legitimate authority. Granted by the Physicals themselves, prime embodiments of the laws of our universe. The Seers of the Throne are just another glitch. But a pervasive and powerful one. Their abilities seem to be flexible beyond belief, and it has highly specific variants upon itself. We are thinking that they are not just a glitch, but a reality virus. Some other reality out there decided to infect our universe with them, unleash it onto our reality and turn us all into some alien "magic" using race or beings, by our theories. They may be a disease trying to uphold the status quo, but just because the disease is dormant don't mean it ain't harmful. Just means you got to get rid of it faster before its roots spread too far.

Me I like the universe as it is. Stable and peaceful. We don't need no dang chaotic forces changing up the place and screwing up gravity. I mean screw with that too much and you might just make a black hole dang it! and then we all die.

and if they claim they are trying to defend the world from an even worse order, well, we got to find those glitches as well and get rid of them just like them Seers. Supposedly a glitch that thinks all of this is a lie or something, how can all this be a lie? This is the physical universe! you lived in it all your life! I bet they are trying to get rid of this "lie" and replace with their own "truth" which is actually converting everything to their glitchy virus ways. Its a hard job, being apart of the Physics Police, but we got to do it. We got to enforce how the universe really is and keep it from being destroyed by all monsters and infected people wishing to screw it up.

Thing is, these glitches are probably the hardest to fight. Their powers are far greater than we ever encountered, and they manipulate those powers to ludicrous flexibility. Its baffling really, most glitches are like one-or-two trick ponies yeah? Even the catgirls tricks aren't so flexible with what they can do.
The upside is that they can't seem to glitch things in the open without what they intend to do going wrong. Odd, but at least its not things going wrong because of their success like most glitches.
If we weren't already focusing our manpower elsewhere on more immediate threats...

[The Random NPC]

STUFF

That's sounding a lot like SUPER!Hunters...

[Lord Raziere]

oh.

hm.

well that sucks.

but then again….many of the more higher Conspiracies would be taking advantage of what Physics Police consider glitches, and would pretty much try to get rid of them too. they are pretty much all physics criminals to them.

though maybe they're not human? like, they are more like robotic beings that can disguise themselves as humans to move discretely to do their jobs...

[SiuiS]

I'm getting strong Mage: the Ascension vibes. Only without the bits of Mage I don't like ... I kind of want to see the Seers written up from this reality moderators POV.

EDIT: Incidentally, has anyone done a reskin of Werewolf to fill the "wizard" slot occupied by Mage? I mean, you'd have to replace the shapeshifting, but the rest seems like it would go well with an old-school warlock type.

I bent the nWoD engine to approximate an D&D game, making gifts into a druid/bard thing. With pledges, arcana, gifts, and the possibility of contracts, I could probably cover just about everything in 3.5 while simultaneously making combat a more gritty and painful thing to go through.

[Turalisj]

I was going to suggest Shinobi: the Honor, but then it occurred to me that Changeling could be re-purposed into a ninja-style game.

[Kesnit]

I recently started running a V:tR Dark Ages (actually around the 1450s) game with my group. The NPCs are all based on PCs from a prior game with a different group. (My current players know that.)

Though I did not set out to do this, my players are overthinking the situation and tying themselves in knots. I have a hard time keeping from laughing when they go off on these tangents.

In the prior game, the then-PCs overthrew the Prince and killed him. I decided to ret-con that and have them leave him alive, but put level-2 blood bonds on the prior prince. (He controlled the docks, so was useful.) One of them took over as Prince, and named a Sheriff and Hound.

My players are twisting their minds are several things.
(1) Why did the new Prince leave the old one alive?
As I said, originally, they didn't. Though that was in large part because the previous party knew the original Prince is a Gangrel, so assumed he would be stacked for combat. He wasn't. He's of a Gangrel bloodline that claims a territory and gains supernatural benefits over that territory. Almost all his XP went into the bloodline discipline. He had no Resilience, and only 2 dots of Protean. They killed him in one round.

(2) Why is there no Harpy or Master of Elysium?
The real answer to this is the amusing part. I forgot about those titles when I set up the NPCs in the city. Once the players started wondering about it, I couldn't really go back and say "Whoops, I forgot."

(3) The Prince sent his Ghoul to invite the PCs to the formal court during the first game. "What does it mean that he's sending his Ghoul to do his work?"
It made sense in my mind. The Ghoul is the Prince's personal servant. He was actually, in a way, personally inviting them.

(4) Why does the Dockmaster (the old Prince) defer so much to the new Prince?
This question actually makes a lot of sense, since they don't know about the forced blood bond.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Something washes up from the gulf. And then gets up and starts walking inland.

...or are eldritch oil-spill-awakened abominations too passe?

Well all the Captain Planet villainy going on down there couldn't have helped whatever horrible beasts were living in there. Although when I think "Gulf of Mexico" and "monsters", I actually think 65 million-year-old space horrors...

[Cirrylius]

Well all the Captain Planet villainy going on down there couldn't have helped whatever horrible beasts were living in there. Although when I think "Gulf of Mexico" and "monsters", I actually think 65 million-year-old space horrors...

*Leviathan drags self inland, gapes in astonishment upon hearing about the gulf spill*

Waitwaitwait... they think that all that black stuff... was rotten plants and dinosaurs and stuff??

*PPPPFFFFHAAAHAAAA....*

Dude, I was down there a LONG time. America's sure gonna be pissed when it finds out that it just inadvertantly participated in the world's biggest moneyshot video EVER.

[SaurOps]

*Leviathan drags self inland, gapes in astonishment upon hearing about the gulf spill*

Waitwaitwait... they think that all that black stuff... was rotten plants and dinosaurs and stuff??

*PPPPFFFFHAAAHAAAA....*

Dude, I was down there a LONG time. America's sure gonna be pissed when it finds out that it just inadvertantly participated in the world's biggest moneyshot video EVER.

Hydrocarbon fossil fuels are too old to be dinosaurs. The mineral fuel resource that's the right age to be contemporary with the dinosaurs? Uranium. Specimens of the sauropod formerly known as Seismosaurus included some that could be easily found by going out at night with a UV lamp, because they would fluoresce under the lamp.

[Cirrylius]

Hydrocarbon fossil fuels are too old to be dinosaurs. The mineral fuel resource that's the right age to be contemporary with the dinosaurs? Uranium. Specimens of the sauropod formerly known as Seismosaurus included some that could be easily found by going out at night with a UV lamp, because they would fluoresce under the lamp.

...'kay?:smallconfused:

[Lord Raziere]

Various Hunter things:

I recently realized: Night Stalkers, Spirit Slayers, Witch Finders….they are all references to Ghost Busters.

I'm thinking of two compacts:

Secrenet is a paranoid compact that sees their conflict with the supernatural as a guerrilla or other kind of war, and basically tells its members to follow a bunch of rules to fight the supernatural: never reveal your identity, not even to other members (so wear a mask and code name at all times), never fully trust any information about the supernatural (because its often unreliable and prone to be only consistent within a small subset of the wider system) and do anything necessary to win the war, and that the war isn't won until they are all dead.

the secret identity thing is not to hide them from the public, from the supernaturals. They know that in the information age, that they can look up the Hunters on the internet and know who they are and come and eliminate them, so to make sure that doesn't happen, they hide their name and face as a defense mechanism.

Unfortunately, because of their paranoia and hiding their identity and not trusting information, they are not really united well. They don't know if any of the other people around them are really human or just infiltrators. They can't form bonds of unity, and each cell is basically on its own aside from the information that is given to them. Furthermore they don't know if the information they have is a plant by the supernaturals. The entire set up is basically supposed to make sure that the supernaturals can't kill them all, but it also makes the organization untrustworthy and full of "need-to-know" information, to the point where no one really even knows how big Secrenet actually is, or if its truly being controlled by humans…

Weirdies is a compact of psychics, second sighters and other people with strange minor abilities. They see themselves as humans but with some extra talents added on rather than inhuman, and are partially a support group for people with such abilities, and partially a group to use their powers to fight against the real monsters of the world. They come together to basically help each other work through their supernatural problems and try to use the abilities they have for the better.

However they have problems with distinction. For one thing they have trouble separating people with real minor abilities from the quacks, mostly in the case of people whose abilities are not obvious or visually seen, such fake weirdies are eventually rooted out, but it can take some time. On the other hand, they sometimes get real monsters or witches or other such beings trying to join (either through ignorance of what their abilities are or because they left their society behind) and they are left with a conundrum: such people are undeniably powerful, but they are still the monsters whose abilities make them a little TOO inhuman to technically be a Weirdie. Do they accept them anyways? or do they kill them for foolishly walking into it? Furthermore, how do you tell the difference between a psychic who can throw fire and a witch who knows fire magic?

Furthermore, there are factions within the Weirdies: the Champions believe themselves to be supernaturally powered to protect humanity and therefore allowed to do anything in its defense. The Elite on the other hand believe themselves to be above humanity, and want to negotiate with the monsters for greater power, believing them to be beings that more relatable to them than normal humans- the best defense is being friends with them. The Sourcists believe that something must have given them their abilities and go looking for what granted them their powers, wishing to harness this source themselves, some to share it amongst humanity to increase the defense against the monsters, others to harness it to gain the power themselves for selfish means or to use it to wipe out the monsters for good.

Furthermore, while they are a true support group that genuinely cares for its members, they often are mistaken as just another secret supernatural society by other Hunters and therefore hunted like them. They have few allies amongst the more regular Hunters, and some of the hardliners don't even see the difference between them and rest of the supernatural. Nevertheless, they try to keep themselves on the side of humanity most of the time.

[123456789blaaa]

So I was reading up on BrightHammer 40K (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Setting:Brighthammer_40,000/1st_edition#Nurgle)recently and was wondering if anyone had done or thought of something similar with WoD? Basically "flipping" the darkness of WoD around and creating a World of Light*. For example, the Inferno book would instead be called Empyrean and would be about angels. The concept of Inferno and demons would be a sidebar on a page in one of the later chapters. As another example, The Book of Spirits splatbook is filled to the brim with not-so-great spirits and even the spirits that aren't inherently bad still screw you over in some way. In the World of Light this would be reversed. The spirit of fear becomes a spirit of courage, the spirit of greed becomes a spirit of Charity etc. You guys see where I'm going with this? It's probably unlikely that people have built mechanics for this but I kind of wonder what the world would be like...?

*Except for Prometheans. They stay exactly the same.

[WitchSlayer]

My ST actually did make a World of Light an alternate universe, some games have ended with characters going to the World of Light.

[comicshorse]

So I was reading up on BrightHammer 40K (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Setting:Brighthammer_40,000/1st_edition#Nurgle)recently and was wondering if anyone had done or thought of something similar with WoD? Basically "flipping" the darkness of WoD around and creating a World of Light*. For example, the Inferno book would instead be called Empyrean and would be about angels. The concept of Inferno and demons would be a sidebar on a page in one of the later chapters. As another example, The Book of Spirits splatbook is filled to the brim with not-so-great spirits and even the spirits that aren't inherently bad still screw you over in some way. In the World of Light this would be reversed. The spirit of fear becomes a spirit of courage, the spirit of greed becomes a spirit of Charity etc. You guys see where I'm going with this? It's probably unlikely that people have built mechanics for this but I kind of wonder what the world would be like...?

*Except for Prometheans. They stay exactly the same.

I've just got a horrible feeling WoL Vampires would be all Twilight-y :smalleek:

Now Changeling, having accepted the invitation of the gentle and benevolent Keepers to enter Arcadia and learned the ways of magic and wisdom you have returned to the drab mundane world to bring magic to its inhabitants and enrich their lives
(Though thinking about it this may be how some Loyalists view the situation anyway)



My ST actually did make a World of Light an alternate universe, some games have ended with characters going to the World of Light.

Don't go into the light :smallsmile:

[Sir_Mopalot]

Now Changeling, having accepted the invitation of the gentle and benevolent Keepers to enter Arcadia and learned the ways of magic and wisdom you have returned to the drab mundane world to bring magic to its inhabitants and enrich their lives

So.... Princess: The Hopeful?

[Selrahc]

World of Light: All of the comforting lies that people tell themselves are true. The world isn't arbitrary, people will band together and work for a better tomorrow, hard work and perseverance will be enough to do anything, justice is blind, bad things only happen for a reason, wanting something enough will make it happen, the people we look up to aren't prone to having embarrassing or harrowing personal lives....

A completely alien place.

[MugaSofer]

Mortals are about discovering the magical world all around us, just out of sight.

Vampires would be bringing the Blessing to a chosen few; but they have to maintain the masquerade lest foolish, mundane humanity turn against them. Mary Sues. Obvious counterpart: Twilight.

Werewolf would be guarding the fragile ecosystem of the Spirit World from mundane intrusion. Preachy and holier-than thou; always right. Obvious counterpart: oWerewolf.

Mages would get their power from Not!Hell. The Seers serve Demon Princes. The Abyss becomes a Wall defending reality from intrusion; by using your powers, you risk weakening the Wall, which could lead to Bad Things. Edgy "anti-heroes". Obvious counterpart: all those dumb 90's antiheroes.

Changelings, as has been mentioned, returned from bounteous Arcadi to spread joy and magic in our dull world. Obvious counterpart: oChangeling.

Prometheans combine alchemical science with mortal humanity; they're about perfecting and improving oneself into Limit Breaking. Y'know, like alchemy. Obvious counterpart: transhumanism.

Geists had a NDE so now they help out Heaven with death-related services on Earth. Collecting lost souls, helping people returning for one last goodbye, and helping release people from their pain, as it were. Obvious counterpart: angels. This may be a it close to playedstraight!Geist, I'm not that familiar with it.

Mummies are about incredibly ancient beings, filled with the summed wisdom of their society, returning to teach us their lessons. Maybe, I dunno, Doctor Who-esque stuff? I'm not familiar with Mummy either.

Demons rebelled against the not!Devil, instead of not!God. Or maybe they work for a benevolent God-Machine as elite agents (elite because they have free will and personalities.) I'm having trouble avoiding overlap with stuff I already used.

For bonus points, introduce this to a regular WoD game, and they're all subtly, monstrously evil; they only sound good. For example, Mummies' ancient wisdom is all about learning your place: ground beneath the heel of the Gods. Death is, y'know, bad (this is easy to swing, albeit strangely unusual) and so are Geists. Demons are, essentially, the Angels of the God-Machine. Vampires don't really care about mere human lives. Also, they have good, but evil-sounding equivalents of the PCs enemies (Seers of the Throne = the Church? Plenty of good and bad vibes to nick).

[123456789blaaa]

More stuff:

Instead of The Beast vampires would all have The Man (I'm open to a new name) inside of them. This is an innate force of civility and reason in every vampire. So for example, two vampires meeting each other for the first time must struggle against feeling peaceful and calm towards the other vampire

Belials Brood (who need a new name) would be a pacifistic group of angel-worshippers all about embracing The Man. They preform acts of profound moral and physical peace in order to obtain a communion with The Man and empower it.

In Mage, the oracles would be the ones obviously in the Supernal and the Exarchs would be the ones who have seemingly disappeared. I'm unsure on how to handle the Abyss. I do know that it's "intrusions" would manifest in ways that are the opposite of terrifying and entropic.

In Werewolf, the positions of the Forsaken and the Pure would be reversed. There would be immensely powerful beings of Virtue from the Empyrean that are the WoL counterparts to the Maeljinn. Wounds would not exist. In there place would be areas in the Shadow that are created by extreme ...um good behaviour? Pleasantry? Whatever the antonym for atrocity is.

This is fun! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Created a thread over in the general discussion section of the WoD forums.

[SiuiS]

GMC and MERITS.


Familiars. Familiars, by the book, are limited to rank 1. This means that a fmiliR is now no longer capable of holding a conversation?

Ghost familiar. You get a thinking, talking ghost. Except a rank 1 ghost isn't thinking and talking. It's the "play a scene over and over" kind of ghost.

I'm thinking the requisite familiar merits would then have to grant a familiar an artificial, honorary rank just for that, with a note on still bein limited in scope to the mechanics of Rank 1, else wise. Alternately, the Potent Familiar merit, instead of giving arbitrary XP converted through somearcaneprocess to a fair amount, lets the familiar gain rank and be rank 2 at start, possibly with a note that just like his own power stat, the mage can spend merit dots or XP to boost the supernatural tolerance stat of the familiar. Basically a merit that turns a mechanical advantage/living equipment into an actual cohort and side kick. The difference between Allies and True Friend.

So the familiar merit grants you a familiar, makes you an Anchor/Resonant, and lets you spend XP on the familiar's attributes and numen. Adding potent familiar raises the cap and allows you to spend XP in the familiar's Rank and Influence as well.


Alternately alternately, spend those three dots on True Friend and get a spirit.

[MugaSofer]

Familiars. Familiars, by the book, are limited to rank 1. This means that a fmiliR is now no longer capable of holding a conversation?

Well, if it's a ghost. According to some pre-GMC RAW, yeah.


Ghost familiar. You get a thinking, talking ghost. Except a rank 1 ghost isn't thinking and talking. It's the "play a scene over and over" kind of ghost.

I'm thinking the requisite familiar merits would then have to grant a familiar an artificial, honorary rank just for that, with a note on still bein limited in scope to the mechanics of Rank 1, else wise.

I don't think that needs a whole rank. Just a note that the "Rank 1 ghosts aren't sentient" doesn't apply to Familiars.

Although that's kinda a dumb rule anyway. Rank-1 entities are about human average, dicewise, so I don't know why ghost ones were excluded.


Alternately, the Potent Familiar merit, instead of giving arbitrary XP converted through somearcaneprocess to a fair amount, lets the familiar gain rank and be rank 2 at start, possibly with a note that just like his own power stat, the mage can spend merit dots or XP to boost the supernatural tolerance stat of the familiar. Basically a merit that turns a mechanical advantage/living equipment into an actual cohort and side kick. The difference between Allies and True Friend.

... how would that work? Different ranks have mutually exclusive Attribute scores, Numina counts; and they hit Godlike at only supernatural tolerance 5.


So the familiar merit grants you a familiar, makes you an Anchor/Resonant, and lets you spend XP on the familiar's attributes and numen. Adding potent familiar raises the cap and allows you to spend XP in the familiar's Rank and Influence as well.

I like this solution.

Isn't it ... the same as pre-GMC?


Alternately alternately, spend those three dots on True Friend and get a spirit.

... a spirit that can't have any mechanical effect, right?

(If you want a high-Rank "familiar" I'd suggest Mentor, for the record.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Rank 1 ghosts aren't sapient because ghosts aren't people. Even high rank ghosts aren't fully sapient like you'd expect a human to be - even the most powerful ghosts get stuck in rote behaviours and reliving their life and/or death, and have faulty memories.

[SiuiS]

Although that's kinda a dumb rule anyway. Rank-1 entities are about human average, dicewise, so I don't know why ghost ones were excluded.


No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".



... how would that work? Different ranks have mutually exclusive Attribute scores, Numina counts; and they hit Godlike at only supernatural tolerance 5.


Where are you getting mutually exclusive? That doesn't make sense; you get 1-4 numen per rank. Rank 1 and 2 could have the same numen count, and you divide total dots between attributes; there's no minimum.

You also missed "lets you get to level 2", and seem to have read "removes cap entirely" instead. That's ludicrous, I agree.


I like this solution.

Isn't it ... the same as pre-GMC?


No. Pre-GMC, they couldn't gain rank, for one thing.



... a spirit that can't have any mechanical effect, right?

(If you want a high-Rank "familiar" I'd suggest Mentor, for the record.)

Why no mechanical effect? That's silly. A true friend human, vampire, werewolf or changeling could be fine, but a spirit isn't? It would have the same effect as any other NPC that really likes you and has powers. Familiar gets you the benefit of mana/essence conversion and sympathy, which you don't get with true friend. It does say the merit covers mentor, allies, contacts and retainer all in one, after all.

[Leliel]

No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".

Actually, bolded part's wrong. They're quite capable of holding a conversation in the First Tongue according to Werewolf, they're just not particularly deep thinkers.

Also, Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

[MugaSofer]

Rank 1 ghosts aren't sapient because ghosts aren't people. Even high rank ghosts aren't fully sapient like you'd expect a human to be - even the most powerful ghosts get stuck in rote behaviours and reliving their life and/or death, and have faulty memories.

Suddenly I am enlightened.


No they're not. Rank 1 spirits are specifically animal-intelligence at best, and rank 1 ghosts are slide shows. There's no basis for them being human-average except "their attributes have the same max as a human".

"Animalistic" does not equal "animal-level intelligence at best".

However, I was in any case referring strictly to their attributes - they have around the same Attribute spread as a human, which is useful for grokking how difficult a challenge they'll pose in various situations.


Where are you getting mutually exclusive? That doesn't make sense; you get 1-4 numen per rank. Rank 1 and 2 could have the same numen count, and you divide total dots between attributes; there's no minimum.

If you purchased Ranks separately, either you would have to change the caps, or they would have to give you Attribute and Numina increases. I'm pretty sure. I'll have to recheck my copy of GMC, but I recall noticing that they don't overlap.


You also missed "lets you get to level 2", and seem to have read "removes cap entirely" instead. That's ludicrous, I agree.

Ah, I didn't realise you intended to allow players to only purchase a single Rank. Of course, allowing them to buy Imperial-level Familiars would be insane, but I inferred you would simply not address the issue / cap at five, like the rules do.

Actually, how do Spirits increase in Rank? I know it's supposed to be a result of devouring other Spirits, but it doesn't happen every time they do, right?


Why no mechanical effect? That's silly. A true friend human, vampire, werewolf or changeling could be fine, but a spirit isn't?
A Familiar could be covered under True Friend, yes, but you would still need the Familiar Merit. Are you perhaps thinking of the "Guardian Angel" Merit?


Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

I guess maybe we weren't giving them enough credit, huh? This seems like it works fine.

[SiuiS]

Actually, bolded part's wrong. They're quite capable of holding a conversation in the First Tongue according to Werewolf, they're just not particularly deep thinkers.

Also, Mage has rules for Ghost Familiars in Summoners, and its specifically stated that they become more independent and intelligent as a result of binding-more like the people they were when alive and quite capable of independent thought (one of them even has decided he should have moved on a long time ago, but can't because of the bond).

GMC specifically over-rules this, though, and straight says that rank 1 spirits are barely able to hold conversation. I think they are making rank 1 spirits more like motes.

I may be misremembering now though, it's been a bit of time.


"Animalistic" does not equal "animal-level intelligence at best".

I know. I think it actually calls out lack of conversing as a thing, though.


If you purchased Ranks separately, either you would have to change the caps, or they would have to give you Attribute and Numina increases. I'm pretty sure. I'll have to recheck my copy of GMC, but I recall noticing that they don't overlap.

1-3 numen per rank, and attributes overlap a very little bit between rank 1 and 2. You're right though, on inspection there is a bigger difference than I initially accounted for.



Ah, I didn't realise you intended to allow players to only purchase a single Rank. Of course, allowing them to buy Imperial-level Familiars would be insane, but I inferred you would simply not address the issue / cap at five, like the rules do.

Heh. In nWoD, you could spend all your merit dots and starting XP on the potent familiar merit, getting a tiny godling anyway.


Actually, how do Spirits increase in Rank? I know it's supposed to be a result of devouring other Spirits, but it doesn't happen every time they do, right?

Mechanically, I don't know. I would borrow the locus rules wholesale, myself.


A Familiar could be covered under True Friend, yes, but you would still need the Familiar Merit. Are you perhaps thinking of the "Guardian Angel" Merit?


Would it be required?

GMC changed Hollow/Sanctum/Etc. to "safe Place", and allows for special rules for individual splats. All splats now use the same merit for their hideaway; Safe Place is beefed up Security/Wards/Spirit Guard/Bound Ghost, size is based on resources (or presumably the appropriate social merit, just like any other object one gets from resources). The Mystery Cult merit functions pretty identically to end-game status in a mage order, and could also be used to achieve Entitlements and Legacies.

It stands to reason that "Familiar Bond" would allow a mage to buy the True Friend merit with a familiar, rather than a human.

[/quote]
I guess maybe we weren't giving them enough credit, huh? This seems like it works fine.[/QUOTE]

My concern is with the idea that the GMC rules changes take precedence, meaning that a lot of the old rules no longer account for the new baseline assumptions.

[MugaSofer]

Heh. In nWoD, you could spend all your merit dots and starting XP on the potent familiar merit, getting a tiny godling anyway.

That sounds cool, I'll have to check the mechanics on that.


GMC changed Hollow/Sanctum/Etc. to "safe Place", and allows for special rules for individual splats. All splats now use the same merit for their hideaway; Safe Place is beefed up Security/Wards/Spirit Guard/Bound Ghost, size is based on resources (or presumably the appropriate social merit, just like any other object one gets from resources). The Mystery Cult merit functions pretty identically to end-game status in a mage order, and could also be used to achieve Entitlements and Legacies.

It stands to reason that "Familiar Bond" would allow a mage to buy the True Friend merit with a familiar, rather than a human.

Not really, unless "Familiar Bond" is the name of a separate Merit to "Familiar", which I haven't heard about.

True Friend means this character won't die and won't betray you. That's it. You want them to help you? Get your self Allies, maybe, or Retainer.

I can actually see Spirit Ally or something as a separate Merit to Familiar Bond, though, because hey, what if I want a Spirit that helps me for some other reason?

Or, alternately, it could simply be True Friend with a note that if you want them to do anything, here are the XP costs for Familiar abilities. And ... something about being able to feed them Essence through the bond? I'm pretty sure that's a thing.

[SiuiS]

Not really, unless "Familiar Bond" is the name of a separate Merit to "Familiar", which I haven't heard about.

Familiar bond is the Spirit Arcanum spell which is required to get a familiar. Casting the "get a familiar" spell requires you to spend the XP to also buy the Familiar merit.


True Friend means this character won't die and won't betray you. That's it. You want them to help you? Get your self Allies, maybe, or Retainer.

then why is Allies one of the listed rolled-in merits of True Friend?

[MugaSofer]

Familiar bond is the Spirit Arcanum spell which is required to get a familiar. Casting the "get a familiar" spell requires you to spend the XP to also buy the Familiar merit.

Ah, thanks. I assumed it referred to the magical bond between you and your familiar. I think my point stands, though.


why is Allies one of the listed rolled-in merits of True Friend?
It isn't.

It is mentioned as one of the Merits you could use for any mechanical benefits your True Friend might also be providing. True Friend does not give you those Merits for free, unless I'm misreading my inexplicably-impossible-to-copy-and-paste-from PDF.

[Theorac]

Hi, guys. I've not seen an auto crossbow yet, so what is a good firearm to get in VtM 20th ED? My melee character got owned, so Im checking out a ranged combat character for a change. Additionally, should I bother with suppressors?

[Gauntlet]

Hi, guys. I've not seen an auto crossbow yet, so what is a good firearm to get in VtM 20th ED? My melee character got owned, so Im checking out a ranged combat character for a change. Additionally, should I bother with suppressors?

You don't have to be a combatant, you know- a lot of VtM characters rely on Presence or Dominate to make fights end before they happen, or just avoid them altogether. However, if you do want to blow people up, you have a couple options:

Pistols: Don't do much to vampires, but pretty good against humans/mages/etc and you can get a license for them if you're in the US (people tend to look at you a whole lot more funny if you're walking around with a crossbow)

Shotgun: Not very legal, but it'll make basically anyone think twice about going for you. Works best with Potence (no recoil for me) and Obfuscate (again with the legality thing). Dragonsbreath rounds if you want to get real dangerous.

Crossbow: Traditional one. Not easy to reload and you need to be good at it. Particularly useful if you have Thaumaturgy or some other way of blessing your quarrels. Also you get looked at funny in the street.

Thaumaturgy: Being a wizard is ranged combat, right? Being a Tremere shoehorns your character concept a bit though, so I'd think carefully about it and don't just do it because you want to be ranged.

Flare Gun: Personal favorite if you're vampire hunting. I'd recommend having a high courage. They only fire one shot and aren't easy to hit with, but a flaming ball of magnesium will wreck a lot of people's days.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah basically if you want to ruin a lowbie Vampire's day cheaply and hilariously, use a flaregun. Just make sure you and anyone on your side can make the Rotshrek check yourself.

(Lowbie as in inexperienced, not low-gen, obviously. What genius decided that going down a number should be a good thing?)

[Turalisj]

Anyone else have the idea for an SCP-Foundation based NWoD game? The PC's are all Hunters, with the various SCPs being different supernaturals, the supernatural's enemies, and the various items throughout the splats.

It just occurred to me that Mummy Relics fit the bill very well, with the blessing/curse dual nature that they have.

[Theorac]

Based on your input, it would seem that Brujah has a good mix of powers? We are starting to go against Vampires, plus the occasional werewolf and firearm users.

[The Glyphstone]

For a facemelter combat wombat, Brujah is one of the best options, yes. Potence and Celerity in-clan, and Presence as the odd-man out for when you don't actually want to melt faces. Just watch your temper, because if you frenzy, those combat powers can end up being a problem. Beating a guy bloody, or even beating/stabbing him to death, is a lot less Masquerade-breaching than gorily tearing him limb from limb with your bare hands, which a sufficiently Potent Brujah in uncontrolled frenzy could easily do to a mortal.

[Mephisto]

Anyone else have the idea for an SCP-Foundation based NWoD game? The PC's are all Hunters, with the various SCPs being different supernaturals, the supernatural's enemies, and the various items throughout the splats.

It just occurred to me that Mummy Relics fit the bill very well, with the blessing/curse dual nature that they have.

The Foundation is pretty much Cherion Group with slightly better intentions.

[The Glyphstone]

The Foundation is pretty much Cherion Group with slightly better intentions.

I'd say more like part Aegis Kai Doru and part Cheiron Group...the way AKD uses relics matches up with Safe-grade SCPs better than the thaumatechnological grafts that Cheiron implants into its field agents (The Foundation has D-class for their experiments, they don't experiment on agents in most cases), but the CG's 'research for research's sake' is closer to the Foundation than AKD's more outwardly benevolent goals.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd use Aegis Kai over Cheiron, because of the mechanical synergy between Relics and SCPs, and rewrite their fluff to focus on containment over using supernatural artifacts against the supernatural evils.

[Sith_Happens]

(Lowbie as in inexperienced, not low-gen, obviously. What genius decided that going down a number should be a good thing?)

Gary Gygax.

[Theorac]

What are some 'safe' flaws to take? Never bothered to take any before this since I wasn't sure which ones the Storyteller can use to screw over my team as well.

I'm a Brujah this time. Sneaking around, hacking, guns, convincing people these are not the droids they are looking for are the main focus of my character.

[Lady Serpentine]

Safest is probably Dwarf - it can be an advantage in some situations, rather than just a straight drawback, depending on your game.

Other than that... Depends. What're you looking at doing with the character?

[SiuiS]

What are some 'safe' flaws to take? Never bothered to take any before this since I wasn't sure which ones the Storyteller can use to screw over my team as well.

I'm a Brujah this time. Sneaking around, hacking, guns, convincing people these are not the droids they are looking for are the main focus of my character.

... Why would you want a safe flaw? The point of a flaw is to cause trouble for bonus XP. No trouble, no XP.

[Lady Serpentine]

... Why would you want a safe flaw? The point of a flaw is to cause trouble for bonus XP. No trouble, no XP.

I think the idea is 'one that can get XP without being really nasty'; get bonus XP without being crazy risky.

[Nerd-o-rama]

... Why would you want a safe flaw? The point of a flaw is to cause trouble for bonus XP. No trouble, no XP.

This is OWoD, where you get your bonuses from taking flaws up front in the form of Freebies/Bonus Points/whatever. Minmaxers could take flaws that aren't really flaws to make more powerful characters, like the game was not some imbalanced mess where you don't even have to try to break the game and is only good for the setting and premise anyway.

[SiuiS]

This is OWoD,.

Ah, okay. That explains it, yes.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

If I were to try to make a V:tR game for one player, roughly what changes would I have to make to make it, well, viable. I'd definitely have to focus the challenges to the one player's benefits, but I don't want to do that too much. Would it be best to just give them one or two NPC coterie members? Then my issue is just to make the other coterie members supporting characters... Make them do what the one player (a beginning player) doesn't want to do...

Thoughts on running one-player V:tR games? Or one-player other White Wolf games, if they'd be easier (but my player like vampires so I'm fairly certain she wouldn't be interested in the other lines)

[Nerd-o-rama]

If I were running a one-player WoD game, I'd make the story focus on the character's particular strengths, interests, and personal story line. Keep combat generally light (unless they want to play P&P Legacy of Kain or something, then just let them do stuff to be awesome) and focus on a personal holy-poop-I'm-a-creature-of-the-night journey.

This is what the books tell you to do anyway, it's just easier when it's not five dudes going in eight different directions and arguing over pizza.

[Grytorm]

Do people like Changling the Lost's book Equinox Road? I've started reading it and so far I just don't like it. Something about the rules and the description just feels wrong to me*. Looking at it the book introduces and explains a lot of things that existed in the 4 seasons books but the way it goes about it seems weird. When you guys play changeling do you ever use the rules for Changelings morphing into the true Fae at Wyrd 10? When creating a new Contract do characters go through the process presented?* Last do you use the rules presented for how the True Fae work or do you just go with whatever seems best for the story?

* Same thing with Geist: the Sin Eaters, I didn't enjoy the book at all.
* For the contract thing I think what I don't like about it is that it doesn't from just reading the rules feel like the rules present how a new contract should be made. It seems to formalized what needs to be done.

[One Tin Soldier]

I love Equinox Road. Nothing to do with any of the reasons you mention, though. To be honest, I didn't even remember that there was a Contract creation system in there. I just really like the section describing the True Fae, their otherworldly politics, and Arcadia.

[MugaSofer]

ER's fluff is great; the mechanics seem like they could have done with some polishing, though. (That said, I've never run a Changeling game :smallfrown: let alone one using Equinox Road.)

[Grytorm]

Yeah, I've reached the third chapter. Since what I saw in the first two the only other thing I really didn't like was the Charmed Circle. I just hate the idea of them. Other than that for the stuff about how faerie works so far in the third chapter I don't really like the idea of Names and Titles, but I kind of like how titles can be invested into Props or Realms. It definitely is useful for playing as the Gentry but for an actual game of Changeling it seems somewhat like authorized storyteller fiat. Although in some ways having fiat authorized does empower a gamemaster to use it. I'm not certain though if I actually like the idea of the Gentry being explained like they are, and that perhaps answers shouldn't have been given for how they work.

Edit: I'm also thinking about Promethean again. Every bodies favorite game that nobody plays. But if by some stupidity I ever GM a game of Promethean I have more than one story idea. Hooray.

[Silus]

Ok, so I've this...let's call it a self-appointed mission. It involves busting into a possibly hostile controlled mansion to retrieve a cursed painting and possibly rescue the kidnapped homeowners.

Hostiles are likely werewolves.

I'll likely be on my own as this would technically be counted as illegal and needlessly violent by the three other party members (A lawyer for the Italian mob, a Dirty Harry style cop, and a Catholic Priest with shades of Hellsing's Alexander Anderson).

Current idea is to get ahold of high-end body armor, sew in bullet proof plating, make oodles of silvered bullets, see if I can't get some blessed, and come strapped with: 4 Tek-9s (or similar weapons), a pair of Glock 17s, an AK-47, a sawed off shotgun, and a pair of custom crafted weapons that are, essentially, Ballistic Fists from Fallout New Vegas (double barrel sawed offs mounted on the wrists and shot via pressure plate on the knuckles. Punch to shoot.).

So on a scale from 1 to invade Russia in the winter, how bad is this idea?

[The Glyphstone]

Oh god you have Gunknuckles.

Sorry, Ballistic Fists. Those (a set of brass knuckles with contact-primed shotgun shells, so basically the same thing) actually showed up in a troupe LARP game a friend of mine attended (once). It's now a running semi-joke in our social circle.

[sktarq]

And why not they are easy to make. 3-4 bang stick heads (from your local dive shop) welded to the brass knuckles. Easy.

As for good idea to land war in Asia issue. it would be in large part based on how many expected hostiles and how many points you have various skills. - Would also recommend a full nomex fire suit and flares. If things go pear shaped light the building on fire and run.

also put on matrix theme when you first have to draw weapons.

Also a Siaga may be good here. Its a AK47 reset to fire shotgun shells. Alternate it between slugs and 00buck for happy fun times. Also shotguns are easier to make you own custom ammo for.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as your actual plan goes, get moar silver. See if you can glue/weld/sew silver studs or plates over your body armor, retribution for getting clawed. Get some silver caltrops or floor spikes, spread them liberally everywhere you go or have been - protection from charges, and defense against being flanked/snuck up on.

[Vertharrad]

Hope your storyteller doesn't take a particular Garou gift or maybe it's a ritual that turns silver into just another weapon to them...it's a 7 pointer but wow does it negate silvers impact against them. Other than that you look solid on the rest of it.

[Sith_Happens]

So on a scale from 1 to invade Russia in the winter, how bad is this idea?

This is Hunter, right? The splat where half your powers come from being near the other PCs? And you want to go it alone?

[The Glyphstone]

Hope your storyteller doesn't take a particular Garou gift or maybe it's a ritual that turns silver into just another weapon to them...it's a 7 pointer but wow does it negate silvers impact against them. Other than that you look solid on the rest of it.

He didn't actually specify if it was NWoD or OWoD. Silver Tolerance only exists in Apocalypse/OWoD, so it could be a problem there if he's playing Reckoning and not Vigil.

[SaurOps]

Hope your storyteller doesn't take a particular Garou gift or maybe it's a ritual that turns silver into just another weapon to them...it's a 7 pointer but wow does it negate silvers impact against them. Other than that you look solid on the rest of it.

You're conflating details. There's no ritual, but there is that aforementioned Merit (Gifts don't have point values), and also Luna's Blessing, which alleviates some silver problems while the moon is visible and can make silver work against the wielder on full moons. And Luna's Avenger, which turns the Garou into silver. And an Ahadi Gift from the upcoming W20 Changing Breeds that allows you to switch your weakness between gold and silver as long as you are vulnerable to only one of them (Mokole are out of luck).

[comicshorse]

As Napoleon put it 'always prepare your retreat' 'cause it would be embarrassing having shot a load of werewolves to death to be caught by the SWAT response trying to carry a picture out the door

[MugaSofer]

Clearly, you should disguise yourself as a werewolf and sneak them out.

Oh man is there an actual Tactic "Cheesy monster disguise"?

(More seriously, I would be very leery of going up against massively superior numbers in a WoD game. Are you using the GMC Armour rules? Do you have access to some kind of Autofire or other pseudo-multiple-attacks?)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Even if you die, you basically just wrote the next big supernatural action film, so make sure your next of kin gets the film rights.

[Mewtarthio]

You're outnumbered and outgunned (or outfanged, as the case may be). Your only advantage is surprise. What you need is intel. Don't go charging in until you know exactly what you're up against.

I don't suppose you could try chucking in some incindiaries in hopes of destroying the painting, could you? Any plan where you don't have to get out alive is much more likely to succeed.

[The Glyphstone]

You're outnumbered and outgunned (or outfanged, as the case may be). Your only advantage is surprise. What you need is intel. Don't go charging in until you know exactly what you're up against.

I don't suppose you could try chucking in some incindiaries in hopes of destroying the painting, could you? Any plan where you don't have to get out alive is much more likely to succeed.

There are apparently hostages he needs to rescue too. Otherwise burning down the house would be Plans A through Y, in ascending order of 'amount of fire needed'.

[Turalisj]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/demon-the-descent-prestige-edition

Kickstarter up.

[PhallicWarrior]

One of my players found the fansite for Leviathan: the Tempest, and wants to play one. Is there a more centralized source for it, like a Genius-style ebook, I can refer him to? Something less diffuse than an entire wiki, preferably.


For that matter, is the Leviathan stuff even playable? I haven't looked at it too closely.

[sktarq]

Hostiles are likely werewolves.
So on a scale from 1 to invade Russia in the winter, how bad is this idea?

Just thought of it. Do you have a clue about their totem spirit? bans would be good but even type and thus what it might be able to effect.

[MugaSofer]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/demon-the-descent-prestige-edition

Kickstarter up.

Whoo, it has a preview PDF!


One of my players found the fansite for Leviathan: the Tempest, and wants to play one. Is there a more centralized source for it, like a Genius-style ebook, I can refer him to? Something less diffuse than an entire wiki, preferably.


For that matter, is the Leviathan stuff even playable? I haven't looked at it too closely.

Funny, I thought there was a PDF version, but it seems I was thinking of a different fangame.

I've seen people imply it was playable, but you might want to try making a few practise characters first.

[Silus]

You're outnumbered and outgunned (or outfanged, as the case may be). Your only advantage is surprise. What you need is intel. Don't go charging in until you know exactly what you're up against.

I don't suppose you could try chucking in some incindiaries in hopes of destroying the painting, could you? Any plan where you don't have to get out alive is much more likely to succeed.

Well destroying the painting is a valid option, but I got me a critical failure on a roll a few games back which translates to the DM damn near forcing me to play my character as an obsessive that must get ahold of one of the paintings to put on eBay for some quick cash. Otherwise I'd be firebombing the house and shooting anything that escapes.

As far as I know, it's currently one man with a Russian accent (the last Russian accented man we dealt with was a werewolf). Plan is to run intel until we have as good of an idea as we can, then see about cutting the power for the house/block (It's in the "rich" part of town) and shutting down the nearby cell towers so the cops aren't called on us. After that it's just shooting anything that's furry and fighting dirty.



(More seriously, I would be very leery of going up against massively superior numbers in a WoD game. Are you using the GMC Armour rules? Do you have access to some kind of Autofire or other pseudo-multiple-attacks?)

Armorer is allowed, and we've got someone with quite a few dots in Resources. Also got two people with ties to the Malleus Maleficarum, so we may have help on that end. Maybe.


As Napoleon put it 'always prepare your retreat' 'cause it would be embarrassing having shot a load of werewolves to death to be caught by the SWAT response trying to carry a picture out the door

As stated above, the idea is to cut lines of communication with the outside. And, if we can, get the cop that's in the crew to spread the word that there's an op going on and that all calls from that area should be ignored. Or something.


He didn't actually specify if it was NWoD or OWoD. Silver Tolerance only exists in Apocalypse/OWoD, so it could be a problem there if he's playing Reckoning and not Vigil.

It's actually NWoD, sorry for not specifying earlier :smallredface:


This is Hunter, right? The splat where half your powers come from being near the other PCs? And you want to go it alone?

Well at least two of the four others would balk at the idea, seeing as one is a lawyer and the other is a cop, and it's generally considered illegal to break into a house, kill ~90% of the people and steal a painting worth hundreds of thousands, if not millions (and is also cursed). The Malleus Maleficarum priest may be easier to convince, and I'm not sure where our politically-aligned-Hunter stands on the issue. But as of right now, it's a solo mission.


As far as your actual plan goes, get moar silver. See if you can glue/weld/sew silver studs or plates over your body armor, retribution for getting clawed. Get some silver caltrops or floor spikes, spread them liberally everywhere you go or have been - protection from charges, and defense against being flanked/snuck up on.

It's gonna be a real kick in the face should they turn out to be vampires instead...:smallannoyed:

But I will totally use that advice =D


Oh god you have Gunknuckles.

Sorry, Ballistic Fists. Those (a set of brass knuckles with contact-primed shotgun shells, so basically the same thing) actually showed up in a troupe LARP game a friend of mine attended (once). It's now a running semi-joke in our social circle.

Was thinking like this but better quality =D

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-8h_4_rHb1c/TRRZjB_qkwI/AAAAAAAAACg/ZeHSzsHLmVE/s1600/240px-BallisticFist.png

[Lady Serpentine]

Hmm. Have you considered silvering the barrels of your weapons so that it will transfer in some part to each round as you fire, rather than going to the expense of silvering bullets?

Also, you've got a shotgun. Dragon's Breath rounds alternating with shells containing a mix of silvered pellets and hardwood wedges ought to mess up weres and vampires.

Oh, and another thing is to get a bunch of mason jars, stick an explosive core in the middle, then put wood and silver around that and seal the whole mess as tightly as you can. Detonation method is up to you, but I'd suggest getting at least 11 burn-phones, making cellphone detonators for ten, then programming their numbers as speed-dial 0-9, and painting a large number on each of the jars so that you know which button to hit; if you want to make more, you can get multiple phones to speed-dial from, but be really careful about which one you use. Mark the jars and the phones with A/B/etc. and so on, so that it's clear what one you're using for which thing.

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds like you really need more intel. Stake out the house for surveillance, see how many people you see coming in and out during the day versus at night. Bring a lot of coffee. Know Thy Enemy So Thy Can Kill It, the creed of the surviving hunter.

[Mewtarthio]

Well at least two of the four others would balk at the idea, seeing as one is a lawyer and the other is a cop, and it's generally considered illegal to break into a house, kill ~90% of the people and steal a painting worth hundreds of thousands, if not millions (and is also cursed). The Malleus Maleficarum priest may be easier to convince, and I'm not sure where our politically-aligned-Hunter stands on the issue. But as of right now, it's a solo mission.

Wait, you have a Malleus priest on your team? Does he not have the Benediction that lets him see supernatural creatures (I think it's called "Sight of Saint Abel")?

[comicshorse]

Well at least two of the four others would balk at the idea, seeing as one is a lawyer and the other is a cop, and it's generally considered illegal to break into a house, kill ~90% of the people and steal a painting worth hundreds of thousands, if not millions (and is also cursed). The Malleus Maleficarum priest may be easier to convince, and I'm not sure where our politically-aligned-Hunter stands on the issue. But as of right now, it's a solo mission.


Well if you have a cop friend and the bad guys are holding hostages that offers some possibilities if you're ruthless enough to get cops mixed up with a bunch of werewolves

[Sith_Happens]

Hmm. Have you considered silvering the barrels of your weapons so that it will transfer in some part to each round as you fire, rather than going to the expense of silvering bullets?

I'm pretty sure the silver transferred that way would be essentially trace amounts.

[Silus]

Well if you have a cop friend and the bad guys are holding hostages that offers some possibilities if you're ruthless enough to get cops mixed up with a bunch of werewolves

That was one thing I was gonna tinker with. Call in as a "concerned neighbor", see if I can't get an officer to investigate. Assuming what I think will happen will happen (the supernaturals attack the officers), then we essentially got ourselves a siege that we can sit back and watch.


Wait, you have a Malleus priest on your team? Does he not have the Benediction that lets him see supernatural creatures (I think it's called "Sight of Saint Abel")?

The only one he has that I know of is the healing one, and he's picking up the Lazarus one next. My character is on that path (for Malleus Benedictions) but currently Resources and such are priority (only have two dots in Resources, need more, if only to afford weapons and ammo).

[comicshorse]

That was one thing I was gonna tinker with. Call in as a "concerned neighbor", see if I can't get an officer to investigate. Assuming what I think will happen will happen (the supernaturals attack the officers), then we essentially got ourselves a siege that we can sit back and watch.


And if the cop wanders out blank faced, mumbling 'There's nothing strange here' you'll know it's Vampires :smallsmile:

[Leliel]

Fun note: About the Demon Kickstarter, the preview is basically the raw text of the completed book, sans art.

You read it, you already know what Demon is about.

(Also, it is about being awesome on bread, from the look of it. Demon: The Fallen can weep).

[Lord Raziere]

read Demon the Descent. y'know the preview.

I love it already. it has joined Mage and Changeling as one of my favorite WoD lines.

I'm even thinking of making a group of characters called The Gamblers, who are all beings who somehow manipulate luck and chance, with at least one Mage, Demon and Changeling in them. and then totally engaging in three-way espionage rebellion action against the Exarchs, Gentry and the God-Machine. All at once. Because taking on just one cosmic super-enemy of unfathomable power with guts, wits and magic just isn't recklessly suicidal enough. :smalltongue:

[Lady Serpentine]

Let me know if they need a min-maxed to hell (albeit, with a reasonable-ish explanation) bodyguard if you ever do; I have a character who'd love a shot at the Gentry. :smalltongue:

[SaurOps]

I'm pretty sure the silver transferred that way would be essentially trace amounts.

And even if you use hard metal bullets to get out more silver, that'll work once and then mess up the rifling.

[Lady Serpentine]

And even if you use hard metal bullets to get out more silver, that'll work once and then mess up the rifling.

Mm. It depends on how much silver you need, really. If it's supposed to be that fairly major amounts are needed? Sure. If you just need a little bit before it hits them? It might work. *Shrugs* Wasn't saying it was necessarily a good idea in general, or even would work in this specific instance, just that it was something to inquire with the ST about.

[Lord Raziere]

Yo C'nor. I can't reply to the last PM you sent about those nwod fan splats you talked about, your PM box is too full, clear some space.

[Lady Serpentine]

Aye aye, someone sent me stuff while I was asleep, sorry about that.

[Silus]

Ok, the aforementioned Hunter game I was in fell through when a party of 4 non-combat characters tried to raid a Juju-zombie controlled tenement building WITHOUT the combat monkey. It went as well as you'd think.

Anyway, working on a Vampire: The Requiem character and I've a question about Virtues:

The concept is a mousy, non-confrontational bookstore owner (Thinking Mekhet/Malkavian) that outright refuses to drink from mortals, preferring to get their blood from a local blood bank that their bookstore advertises.

Anyway, the refusal to drink from mortals, would that fall more under Fortitude or Prudence? I'm torn, as Fortitude would be like "No, I said I wouldn't drink from a human, and I'm not gonna", whereas Prudence I think would be more "It's not smart to eat from humans, as it could be traced back to me and I could die and all my books destroyed".

[Lord Raziere]

wait, the blood bank method actually works? I thought the blood had to be straight from the body....

[Silus]

Well according to the NWoD vamp book, there is, at the least, a derogatory term for vamps that get their blood from banks. It's not very flavorful, but it apparently gets the job done.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Low-BP vamps can hypothetically subsist on bagged/stored blood, but it takes a lot more blood volume than eating straight from a mortal since there's so little actual "Vitae" in dead blood. It's something like 1/8 of a point per 1-oz. blood pack. I recommend combining this with at least a rank in the Coil of Blood, two if you ever plan on getting above about 4 Blood Potency.

[Lord Raziere]

I recommend combining this with at least a rank in the Coil of Blood, two if you ever plan on getting above about 4 Blood Potency.

I'm confused. Why wouldn't I get two ranks in Coil of Blood? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

[Vertharrad]

I'm confused. Why wouldn't I get two ranks in Coil of Blood? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Your not with The Ordo Dracul?

[The Glyphstone]

Your not with The Ordo Dracul?

I think you mean "You didn't say you were a member of the Ordo Dracul in backstory?"

[Turalisj]

So I'm already making a Demon character :smallbiggrin:

Got a pretty good background for him too, he was once the Guardian assigned to the Library of Alexandria..... yeah.

[SaurOps]

So I'm already making a Demon character :smallbiggrin:

Got a pretty good background for him too, he was once the Guardian assigned to the Library of Alexandria..... yeah.

"So... how did that work out?"

"You know damn well how it worked out! Now stop asking!"

[Turalisj]

For those interested:

Andromalius, the Baron of Lies and Thieves, was once an Angel tasked with managing what information was brought into the Library of Alexandria. As a Messenger, information was his lifeblood, and he reveled in the information that the God-Machine granted him. But the humans, they were something all their own. They created, changed, reacted. It was an intoxicant of it's own. Before he knew it, Andros was attached to the Library in a way that he never thought possible. A new Angel came, to tear the library down. Andros was not a fighter however, and the Angel who appeared was a Sword. He managed to blind the Angel, scarring it's eyes, and taking some of the rarer works and hiding them across the world.

It wasn't long before he was approached by more Demons, offering him shelter and assistance. With their help, he was able to adapt to the new world, or new to him. He was no longer connected to the God-Machine, no longer in touch with all that was. So Andromalius began to rebuild. He used his knowledge to help humanity, a little at a time so as to not draw attention. In Italy, he was a pupil of Leonardo and an advocate in the church for Galileo. In England, he was a quirky and radical professor, nudging Newton along.

Under his longest guise, she was a lover of Benjamin Franklin's. Known then as Anne, she whispered into his ear at night to fly a kite during a storm. He took her with him to America, and Anne fell in love with the sheer drive and ingenuity of the fledgling country. But in her thrill, Anne let slip her Cover. As an Angel was prepared to strike Franklin down, Anne blocked the blow and slew the Angel. But her wounds were great, and she was forced to go into rest for the next two hundred years.

When World War Two broke out, Anne was stirred from her slumber. She found herself in Oak Ridge. Working a Cover, Anne became a waitress at a diner. She talked to scientists, plying information from them and giving it in return. Anne for a time found peace, living as the wife of a scientist in the American space program. When her husband passed, Anne took the guise of their child, becoming Andy Roll.

Now, Andy has moved to Detroit, in the neverending goal to advance the knowledge of humanity.

[MugaSofer]

That reminds me, I keep meaning to post Superman statted as as a Demon ... I've got it pretty much worked out just from reading the preview.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm confused. Why wouldn't I get two ranks in Coil of Blood? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

There must be some reason for Vampires to join things that aren't the Ordo Dracul, right?

[Vertharrad]

I think you mean "You didn't say you were a member of the Ordo Dracul in backstory?"

I stand corrected...but i think we all know what I was getting at. Shame on you if you didn't. The coils are practiced by The Ordo Dracul.

[Lord Raziere]

There must be some reason for Vampires to join things that aren't the Ordo Dracul, right?

like what? Cruac? Theban Sorcery? creepy magics that seem to have no practical use? bloodlines that give you just as many flaws as benefits? The Invictus where your basically going to be happily living under the elder vampires boot forever? The Carthians, who aren't actually democratic (or all democratic), just modern and could very well be just as oppressive?

if there is any, I don't see it. y'know aside from Ordo Dracul having high standards. :smallconfused:

[Lady Serpentine]

Do believe that was sarcasm.

That said, if things really are that crappy in... Anything else, it sounds like... it's a pretty big flaw and I'd expect something to be done about it so that those characters who'd fit better in something else aren't screwed.

[Lord Raziere]

what was done about it was that they specifically said in the Ordo Dracul book that they only accepted like, vampires who met their high monastic standards or something, while all the other factions go "eh, I don't believe them, they're probably lying about their coil things" and then went on about how the Coils themselves are really bleeping hard to get, like, just for first coil of blood? it involves the vampiric equivalent of fasting, and like, goes up from there.

basically? the reason not all vampires is running around with Coils is the same reason not everyone is running around with martial arts. they take too much time and effort, because the vampires have other things they need to do.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Coils are ridiculously useful compared to other faction-specific things, but so is being a ten year military veteran with a variety of exotic firearms, and not everyone is going to have that either.

(Coils of Blood are pretty much required for "nice" vampires to stay nice forever, though, there's not really any getting around it.)

[Cirrylius]

Agoraphobic werewolves, huh? Colloidal silver in the sprinkler system?

[SaurOps]

Agoraphobic werewolves, huh? Colloidal silver in the sprinkler system?

Silver salts aren't the kind of silver that hurts werewolves. Well, aside from the potential for argyria, anyway.

[One Tin Soldier]

So, those of you who have read the whole if Demon and apparently love it, I have a question.

What do you actually do as a Demon?

I read the QuickStart recently, and while it was plenty interesting, the only plot thing that they really mentioned was Infrastucture. And as diverse as Infrastructure is, and as many interesting missions can be gotten out of it, it's still only one type of plot. I imagine that you can only take out so many lynchpins before it starts getting same-y. So what else is there? What do demons do when they're not out to sabotage the G-M, and not just staying safe in their Covers?

[Turalisj]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?" :smallannoyed:

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

[SiuiS]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?" :smallannoyed:

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

Changelings try to find a home after being broken and abused. Werewolves adapt to being native American rip-off police. Vampires struggle with the truth of their bleak existence and find some meaning in the ongoing games of societal ritual. Mages peer into the gnostic truths of the world and hope their psyche survives.

What do they do is a valid question. Why play a demon? "Because they have different cool powers" isn't enough, because that can be accomplished by playing mage.

[One Tin Soldier]

Really? Is that the question that is going to keep being asked when a new splat comes out? "Well, what do they DO?" :smallannoyed:

What does a vampire do, outside of feeding and not getting dusted? What do changelings do, outside of avoiding the true fae? Geists.... period.

I'm not criticizing it, just the opposite. I'd actually be interested in playing a game. I just want to know what being a demon entails if you're not a Saboteur. Infrastructure-based plots seem to mostly be geared towards them, so what if the characters aren't interested in that? There aren't demon social groups like there are for changelings or sin-eaters, in fact it was said that demons distrust each other for good reason.

Are there antagonist groups outside of angels and other demons? What are the bloodline/lodge/whatever equivalents? What are their opinions on other supernaturals? I ask because I really want to know.

[Lady Serpentine]

Changelings try to find a home after being broken and abused.

There's also a hell of a lot of social intrigue that can be done in the courts, which can be entirely separate from finding a home, and their powers, between some of the contracts and Pledgecrafting, are directly geared to help with that if one wants to get involved in it.

There's also the fact that, with sufficient preparation, one can take the fight to the True Fae, especially if you have a good way to get Tokens.

But yeah, that's the major focus; whether or not you're doing any of the other Changeling bits, you're probably at least trying to figure out what to do with your Fetch, and trying to build up some kind of connections, whether to mortals or other Changelings.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not criticizing it, just the opposite. I'd actually be interested in playing a game. I just want to know what being a demon entails if you're not a Saboteur. Infrastructure-based plots seem to mostly be geared towards them, so what if the characters aren't interested in that? There aren't demon social groups like there are for changelings or sin-eaters, in fact it was said that demons distrust each other for good reason.

Are there antagonist groups outside of angels and other demons? What are the bloodline/lodge/whatever equivalents? What are their opinions on other supernaturals? I ask because I really want to know.

well, its about espionage, so...

well, paranoia.

how can you be sure that the demons you know are on your side? they are all perfect liars, just as good at it as you are.

how do you know that they are for real? that they aren't betraying your trust? the only way to find out, is to get proof. the only way to get proof is to steal it or spy on them. why? because if you just ask, they will either tell a perfect lie, or give false evidence, maybe even thinking that your the enemy.

what do you if you find out that they are on their side- but that they are exploiting mortals in horrific ways to help win their war against the God Machine? can you accept them as your allies if they are using mortals as living bombs against the god machine?

and of course, its very probable that these Agendas aren't speaking to each other. These demons don't know if the saboteurs are actually integrators, or if the integrators are actually saboteurs. after all, the best way to destroy someone is get close to them, while the best way to not get noticed as a sympathizer is to pretend be loyal to the cause. Anyone could be an integrator, or an integrator pretending to be a saboteur.

and what about those other supernatural guys? are they pawns of the God-Machine as well? or of another demon? can you trust anyone? is anyone really who they say they are?

is that girl who is suddenly interested in you an angel in disguise? is your best friend a sleeper agent? can you actually ever live a normal life? are there really only four Agendas? and even if there are only four- who is working for which Agenda? who is a double agent? who is just a spy? who is honest? who isn't? and even if you say are dealing with only one Agenda...well...

say that your a bunch of Saboteurs, how do you go about agreeing with each other on the plan to take down the God-Machine when all you are liars, all of you, being individualists, probably having their own ideas, and with deception, probably will lie about agreeing with each other on how to go about that plan, might implement their own plan while no one is looking, and how do you make sure that no one is an Integrator that is about to betray you, or a Saboteur who is willing to sacrifice a lot of his allies if it means the God-Machine dies?

Say that your a bunch of Tempters who just want to have a good time. how do you define a good time? are you willing to make people sign away their souls? how can you be sure the others agree with you if you don't want to steal their souls? and so on.

you can't be sure of anything in Demon. all the other Demons are liars, perfect ones. you can't trust a single thing any of them say. at any moment- it could all be a lie. your best friend might turn on you. your allies might actually be your enemies. your enemies might be your allies. deception is everywhere and everyone is a spy.

all the other WoD splats? are honest and trusting in comparison to the amount of deceptive paranoid plotting Demons probably engage in. out of necessity. A Vampire? just needs to lie about being a vampire. a Mage? just needs to lie about their name. Changelings may hide themselves from the world but they can be honest amongst their close friends, Werewolves just need to make sure that no one finds out about their animal double-life, The Sin-Eaters, I don't think they make all that much of the effort, they just keep their magic on the down low because they don't want the government to show up, Mummies probably lie about their life too, Prometheans probably want to speak the truth out loud to the rooftops if it didn't make people come at them with pitchforks...

but Demons? ohohohohohohoho......Demons. they breathe lies. their world is not politics, its being the lone spy among many other lone spies hoping that the other lone spies aren't traitors. because ultimately, no matter how together they get...Demons are perhaps one of the loneliest beings in existence, hard not to be when anything could possibly be not what it seems at all.

you could probably make a whole chronicle just out of like, a bunch of Demons suspecting one another of working for the God-Machine and all the intrigues that could result....without ever involving the God-Machine.

Edit: when I say perfect liars? I do mean perfect. There is no power in the world of darkness that can tell whether a Demon is lying or not. you can throw them into a zone of truth, and a Demon would be able to look up at the bright blue sky, and say its green without any problem, the zone of truth, would register it as truth if the Demon decides its true even if its not actually physically True.

[Lady Serpentine]

Actually, Changelings can bypass that, I think. Make them Pledge to tell the truth with some hefty sanctions on them if they don't. When the Pledge shatters so you've no longer got Wyrd invested in it and they go mute, you can probably tell.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, Changelings can bypass that, I think. Make them Pledge to tell the truth with some hefty sanctions on them if they don't. When the Pledge shatters so you've no longer got Wyrd invested in it and they go mute, you can probably tell.

nope, look at this:



Liar’s Tongue
Demons are perfect liars, but it’s not because of infernal origin or abiding evil. Their superlative ability to
lie comes from a confluence of their gift for language, their Primum, and the fact that their mind is so
completely de-coupled from their Covers.
When a demon forms a thought, it forms in the quantum engine of the demon’s Primum. The demon
decides, in the split second of the thought, whether that thought is true or false. The actual, objective
truth of the matter makes no difference — if the demon says “the sky is orange,” any method of
detecting truth or lies, magical or otherwise, reads that statement as “true” (if the demon wants it to
read as true). Likewise, the demon can tell the truth — but have it read as a lie.
When dealing with human beings this tends not to matter, since most human methods of detecting lies
actually detect physical responses to emotion. As mentioned on p. XX, demons have no problem keeping
rein over these responses. Even a power that detects whether a statement is true rather than whether
the speaking is deliberately lying still fails to work reliably against one of the Unchained. A statement will
read as true if the demon says it is.



a demon could tell the truth and shatter the Wyrd by making it read as a lie. I think its quite clear that no effect can make them tell the truth-truth.

[Lady Serpentine]

Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

[SiuiS]

There's also a hell of a lot of social intrigue that can be done in the courts, which can be entirely separate from finding a home, and their powers, between some of the contracts and Pledgecrafting, are directly geared to help with that if one wants to get involved in it.

There's also the fact that, with sufficient preparation, one can take the fight to the True Fae, especially if you have a good way to get Tokens.

But yeah, that's the major focus; whether or not you're doing any of the other Changeling bits, you're probably at least trying to figure out what to do with your Fetch, and trying to build up some kind of connections, whether to mortals or other Changelings.

I don't see fitting into a political freehold as being sufficiently different from the broad sense of finding your home to be its own thing. It's a method, not a goal.


Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

Wyrd is not the source of magic. It's at most 1/10th of all possible magic, probably far less.
Looking up and seeing a blue sky requires human eyes, human brains, human socialization, not reading colors opposite on a color wheel, dealing only with visible spectrum, dealing specifically with an empty concept as 'sky' is not a discrete object, and dealing with a manifestation of the fallen world and trusting that you know the truth and haven't just bought a pack of lies this whole time.

Sky doesn't exist supernally. Its a manifestation of the fallen over which the godmachine rules. The godmachine's built in back door exceptions could likely get by silly phenomenal understanding, because you're the reader and the godmachine is the author; if the author's legal agent says the author intends the sky orange right now, you can't argue. You'd need more proof; finding Sky and evaluating it's contracts with Earth and Sea to tell what colors it has purview of and how much fidelity to that concept it possesses, maybe seek out whichever spirit is Sky and look at that and hope it's not orange, etc.

Cold fire, orange sky, being unable to trust the truth of your eyes,relying on a discrete, objective and not at all mutable reality? That's a bad way to approach things. Cold fire happens.

"Objects are only solid when you want them to be" is like, starting level Mage and werewolf and changeling, after all.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh... I'd be leery of saying that 'Yeah, what's basically Magic Incarnate and the force responsible for making the True Fae so powerful can't tell that they're lying'.

Also, that's a pretty crappy definition, given that a nonmagical method of detecting that 'the sky is orange' is a lie is looking up, and this apparently counters that as well. Or, say, 'fire is cold'; being burned is a way to test that, so now they have fire immunity. How about telling someone 'objects are only solid when you want them to be' to make them incorporeal whenever they want and able to interact if they choose?

thats not how it works and you know it.

they aren't reality warpers with their lies, its just that if you go up to a human and say
"the sky is orange!"
and have it read as true, even though its not...
the human will think that you sincerely believe that you think the sky is orange. they will basically think you are crazy, but it will still read as you making a statement you "believe" to be true.

whereas if you go up to a human and say
"the sky is orange!"
and have it read as a lie...
the human will think that your joking in some weird random manner and step away from you.

while if you say
"the sky is blue!"
and have it read as a lie...
they will probably think your being sarcastic in some weird manner since that is clearly true, why is he acting like it isn't?

but all of these are just examples. the lies you will craft will probably be far more plausible.

but really, C'nor, immunity to all lie detection = reality warping? I thought you knew better :smallsigh:

[Lady Serpentine]

I don't see fitting into a political freehold as being sufficiently different from the broad sense of finding your home to be its own thing. It's a method, not a goal.




Wyrd is not the source of magic. It's at most 1/10th of all possible magic, probably far less.

I meant for Changelings, really; I was assuming that in this case it's just Changelings and Demons.


Looking up and seeing a blue sky requires human eyes, human brains, human socialization, not reading colors opposite on a color wheel, dealing only with visible spectrum, dealing specifically with an empty concept as 'sky' is not a discrete object, and dealing with a manifestation of the fallen world and trusting that you know the truth and haven't just bought a pack of lies this whole time.

Can't really argue there. It's much like the debate over 'it destroys the surface of the sea, does that mean that the concept of surface for the sea no longer exists, or a layer of atoms, or what?' that happened in the dysfunctional rules thread for 3.5.


Sky doesn't exist supernally. Its a manifestation of the fallen over which the godmachine rules. The godmachine's built in back door exceptions could likely get by silly phenomenal understanding, because you're the reader and the godmachine is the author; if the author's legal agent says the author intends the sky orange right now, you can't argue. You'd need more proof; finding Sky and evaluating it's contracts with Earth and Sea to tell what colors it has purview of and how much fidelity to that concept it possesses, maybe seek out whichever spirit is Sky and look at that and hope it's not orange, etc.

Wouldn't those methods not work as well, though?


Cold fire, orange sky, being unable to trust the truth of your eyes,relying on a discrete, objective and not at all mutable reality? That's a bad way to approach things. Cold fire happens.

"Objects are only solid when you want them to be" is like, starting level Mage and werewolf and changeling, after all.

Pretty sure neither of those can just say something and have it become true, though? Mages, at least, have to worry about Paradox, whereas a Demon can just grant that to a bunch of humans and send them off to do things in return.

To take an example that actually is paradoxical... 'I'll pay you in cash', read as True. A way of finding out would be not being paid, right? But at the same time, the Demon never intends to and never does pay you. So where do you get the money?

I mean, if it's intended to make them able to do anything they can say, then that's fine... But it seems like the intent was just to make them incredibly good liars, and it ended up as this instead.

@Lord Raziere:

Methods of detection 'magical and non-magical'. There's nothing that says they believe you think that, they believe it's true. Since ways of detecting it's not true include experiencing that it isn't, it warps reality, at least for the person they told.

[Lord Raziere]

@Lord Raziere:

Methods of detection 'magical and non-magical'. There's nothing that says they believe you think that, they believe it's true. Since ways of detecting it's not true include experiencing that it isn't, it warps reality, at least for the person they told.

*facepalm*

your seriously arguing this. what. please tell me your being heavily sarcastic right now. are we really going to have this conversation, against all common sense? are you really going to be this detail obsessed over a technical definition of a word? are we really going to go there? is this a thing that is seriously going to take place? :smallannoyed:

because I think we both now, thats now how its meant to be interpreted. I think we both know, its just a freaking lie detection immunity power. why are you insisting on this stupid interpretation? why? because its literal? because its the "logical end conclusion" or whatever? because you want to use some "RAW" thing ? just... WHY. just WHY.

This, your insistence on this interpretation we both know, is not how its meant to be interpreted at all, thats clearly wrong, does not make ANY sense to me. whatsoever. At all. You know this does not make sense and is not supposed to, yet your deliberately, insisting upon interpreting it this way.

WHY? just........WHY? what possible reason? because I can't think of any, if this is a joke, C'nor, IT IS NOT FUNNY.

[Lady Serpentine]

Overreacting much?

As for why... Yeah, okay, it's a silly way to do it, but A, it apparently isn't as clear-cut as you think, as SiuiS didn't have any objections to it working that way, and B, the reason to go for that when I know it's silly is to point out that the power is badly written.

If one can make the argument that a power that is meant to make one supernaturally immune to having your lies detected is actually a potent form of reality warping, and the only counterargument to be made is that they obviously didn't intend for it to work that way, that's a problem - and is indicative that there are quite likely to be other issues with the power.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, if your arguing from a purely letter of the wording point of view.

I do not care for the letter of things. I care for its spirit. the spirit of something is far more important than its mere lettering. I do not play twisting word games with people.

the spirit of the power is that its an anti-lie detection power, and therefore that is what it is, regardless of whatever meaningless twisting letter definitions or interpretation you come up with. to insinuate otherwise is to ruin the game with your false twisted interpretation. while the interpretation may exist, its inherently false and therefore should be disregarded, and yes while the text should be corrected, one should also recognize that any letter interpretation that distorts things away from its spirit is inherently false and should not be regarded as a valid argument.

you place too much emphasis on the physical wording and not on its intention. that is a severe case of bad prioritizing in my opinion.

[Lady Serpentine]

As I just said, though, the point is not 'use this interpretation'. The point is that, since the power is badly written in at least one way, it's entirely possible that it's badly written in several, and you should think carefully about whether or not they actually intended that level of non-detection or if they were also making assumptions about how it works at a higher level than 'it doesn't actually change things'.

[MugaSofer]

I believe the canonical example of this power is being interviewed by a detective - the demon need make no subterfuge roll, and the detective will perceive them as perfectly honest. But this will not impede their ability to actually examine the crime scene and reconstruct the real sequence of events; they are not required to believe you are *correct*, only honest.

(Supernatural lie-detection abilities are not allowed to get around this by directly sensing the platonic essence of Truth or Falsehood in a statement, either, although that is not apparent in this example.)


***

Tin Soldier, I think the answers you seek are found in the Kickstarter preview PDF.

[SiuiS]

Overreacting much?

As for why... Yeah, okay, it's a silly way to do it, but A, it apparently isn't as clear-cut as you think, as SiuiS didn't have any objections to it working that way, and B, the reason to go for that when I know it's silly is to point out that the power is badly written.

If one can make the argument that a power that is meant to make one supernaturally immune to having your lies detected is actually a potent form of reality warping, and the only counterargument to be made is that they obviously didn't intend for it to work that way, that's a problem - and is indicative that there are quite likely to be other issues with the power.

Oh, no. I didn't say anything because "this becomes effectively true" is good enough for me. There's a contract to break a Wyrd oath without breaking it, I fully endorse demons being able to avoid Wyrd-based lie detection.

Those methods would work because by the time you got there it wouldn't matter any more. Hell, if I say the sky is grey, and is cloudy, and you go do a Supernal ritual and finish in ten hours, that's now wrong – because the night sky is much closer to black than grey.

Don't use D&D logic. This game is designed in spirit not letter. The powersync it works, don't quibble edge cases. The writers specifically say they don't care about edge case quibbles. This isn't programming. It needn't compile. It must do what is necessary for the game and that's it.

[Lady Serpentine]

Don't use D&D logic. This game is designed in spirit not letter. The powersync it works, don't quibble edge cases. The writers specifically say they don't care about edge case quibbles. This isn't programming. It needn't compile. It must do what is necessary for the game and that's it.

Sure, as I've agreed several times now. I'm just noting that if it's got major flaws in it like that, it should be looked at more closely than you might otherwise, to make sure it should work that way.

That said, a group of Demons able to do this would be kinda neat. Especially if they were on different sides. Turns combat and such into 'who tells the best story', really.

[SiuiS]

Sure, as I've agreed several times now. I'm just noting that if it's got major flaws in it like that, it should be looked at more closely than you might otherwise, to make sure it should work that way.

That said, a group of Demons able to do this would be kinda neat. Especially if they were on different sides. Turns combat and such into 'who tells the best story', really.

You're not noting that it is not a definitive, major flaw. That's the contention; I see no flaw whatsoever.

[Mono Vertigo]

What do Demons do?
First, they don't have to wreck Infrastructure and look for linchpins. They can simply hijack them for their own purpose (see the Suborned Infrastructure merit).
Beside messing with Infrastructure and avoiding Angelic attention, though? Learning to be human. Cheating in small ways for their own profit - or not. Fully integrate the identity of their Cover, or, to the contrary, try to make their own one. Seek Hell (which, being either a physical place or a state of mind or an absence of God-Machine, can be pretty much anything). Seek newly-Fallen Demons to help them integrate into human society, or tempt Angels into Falling. Have a family - yes, Demons can have children, and while children with only one Demonic parent should do pretty okay, fully-Demonic children are likely to get into a lot of trouble (for reasons that the ST is supposed to explore); I've read a short story inspired by the idea such a kid is not going to be born with a Cover, and therefore, other Demons will have to make one from bits and pieces before it is born. Have fun with Cryptids and Cultists and Stigmatics, many of which may not even want to harm you!

I believe the canonical example of this power is being interviewed by a detective - the demon need make no subterfuge roll, and the detective will perceive them as perfectly honest. But this will not impede their ability to actually examine the crime scene and reconstruct the real sequence of events; they are not required to believe you are *correct*, only honest.

(Supernatural lie-detection abilities are not allowed to get around this by directly sensing the platonic essence of Truth or Falsehood in a statement, either, although that is not apparent in this example.)


Yup. The Demon can sound perfectly sincere.
Which means you can suspect he's telling the truth, or he's delusional or crazy, or mistaken, or has a faulty memory. Or, well, that he's lying really damn well (at which point you become paranoid because everything he says sounds equally sincere, even when he claims the sky is yellow). Still plenty of reasons to ping your radar.
It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy. :smallcool:

[Turalisj]

It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy. :smallcool:

There are multiple Demon Embeds specifically designed to drive investigators completely nuts. A Demon with the right Embeds and lucky rolls can walk into a fully crowded room, cameras all rolling, walk up to a guy and slit his throat, then walk out without appearing on the camera, anyone remembering him, or a speck of evidence on him. And can say completely honestly that he had nothing to do with it.

[Lady Serpentine]

You're not noting that it is not a definitive, major flaw. That's the contention; I see no flaw whatsoever.

It's not that it's actually a rule flaw in the sense of it being an interpretation anyone might use, no. It's simply that it is a major flaw in terms of 'well, we've got this rule here so we're fine with writing the rules to be ambiguous'; the rule should be meant to cover things that aren't obvious and slipped through the cracks, and to me at least, it's not here, which indicates that the writing may be faulty in other ways.

[One Tin Soldier]

What do Demons do?
First, they don't have to wreck Infrastructure and look for linchpins. They can simply hijack them for their own purpose (see the Suborned Infrastructure merit).
Beside messing with Infrastructure and avoiding Angelic attention, though? Learning to be human. Cheating in small ways for their own profit - or not. Fully integrate the identity of their Cover, or, to the contrary, try to make their own one. Seek Hell (which, being either a physical place or a state of mind or an absence of God-Machine, can be pretty much anything). Seek newly-Fallen Demons to help them integrate into human society, or tempt Angels into Falling. Have a family - yes, Demons can have children, and while children with only one Demonic parent should do pretty okay, fully-Demonic children are likely to get into a lot of trouble (for reasons that the ST is supposed to explore); I've read a short story inspired by the idea such a kid is not going to be born with a Cover, and therefore, other Demons will have to make one from bits and pieces before it is born. Have fun with Cryptids and Cultists and Stigmatics, many of which may not even want to harm you!


Yup. The Demon can sound perfectly sincere.
Which means you can suspect he's telling the truth, or he's delusional or crazy, or mistaken, or has a faulty memory. Or, well, that he's lying really damn well (at which point you become paranoid because everything he says sounds equally sincere, even when he claims the sky is yellow). Still plenty of reasons to ping your radar.
It does mean, however, that if a Demon were to wander into Lie To Me or The Mentalist, he might drive the protagonists crazy. :smallcool:

There, this is the answer I was looking for. A wide range of plots, focusing on different parts of a demon's life. Thank you. Raz, your answer was nice and flavorful, but it mostly made me wonder why a demon would leave their Cover if it was that dangerous.

If the preview PDF is free, I'll download it and check it out. I was under the impression that it was a backer reward or something.

[Lord Raziere]

There, this is the answer I was looking for. A wide range of plots, focusing on different parts of a demon's life. Thank you. Raz, your answer was nice and flavorful, but it mostly made me wonder why a demon would leave their Cover if it was that dangerous.

If the preview PDF is free, I'll download it and check it out. I was under the impression that it was a backer reward or something.

why would they leave their Cover if it was that dangerous?

well see, unlike all the other guys in WoD, their morality stat IS Cover. they don't want that going down. However! once its at zero, that doesn't mean your character is unplayable, it just means you have no cover and the angels are attacking you. which is bad, but if you got a back up Cover, you can bounce back no prob. and you should Always Have a Backup Cover.

but there is at least ONE reason to leave your Cover: emergencies. dire emergencies. All Demons can decide to Go Loud. Going Loud is basically their super-powered boss form that they whip out when its absolutely necessary. When your using this thing, it means something has already gone horribly wrong. the ideal Demon never needs to resort to this, or even resort to Exploits which lower your Cover and make it more likely that you'll get discovered. ideally, a Demon can fight against the God-Machine using only Embeds in many clever ways, but things are rarely that ideal. that and as you get more powerful, more glitches in your Cover start appearing....

but yeah, your basically right. Demons don't want to leave their Cover! In their situation its vital to their survival. Of course they may leave their Cover in very private settings to "let their hair down"....without any surveillance around... because while the Demons are perfect liars, they are still just as human as us, and still have human troubles about lying... they cannot do any involuntary human expression. if a Demon yawns, its because they chose to yawn. everything they express is intentional, right down to the most intimate of affections. this can be a problem for them as you can tell.

[Leliel]

Also, it should be noted that this does not mean demons are completely amoral-indeed, many of them have difficulties with guilt, since as angels they never felt it so acutely before.

They just don't have PTSD or long-lasting mental dysfunctions because of it.

[Lady Serpentine]

Do you mean that they can't, or just that they don't do so mechanically? Earlier nitpicking about things aside Demon does look interesting, and I'd like to know which it is before looking into getting it.

[Mewtarthio]

Demons have total control of their physiological reactions (unless they have certain Glitches). If a demon laughs, cries out, trembles, or manifests a nervous tic, it's of the demon's own volition. A demon's relationship with PTSD is about as alien as you'd expect. They can feel emotions, but they don't automatically display them. A demon suffering a panic attack could outwardly appear perfectly calm. Likewise, a demon could buy someone's military service and demonstrate a flashback so extreme and so real that the best doctors in the country would swear he had severe PTSD, even though the demon doesn't actually have the memories to flash back to and is inwardly completely lucid.

[Lady Serpentine]

That's... Actually making me come up with a rather creepy character. Someone who, as a result of being essentially a Demon in viewpoint, but not knowing how to break from the God-Machine, had to serve it, until she figured out a way to get out, and actually does have horrible guilt issues over this, as well as PTSD from, for instance, killing a fair number of people.

However, she doesn't actually know how to show them, and thus doesn't get any sort of emotional support from people at all - in fact, even when she's actively dealing with this and suicidal, she tends to only be outwardly distracted, at most, and thus often gets shouted at while she's going through it.

[Friv]

I hate myself for making this comparison, but it seems kind of like demons are players, and their covers are player characters.

It doesn't matter how many terrible things my character goes through - those things are all real as far as the game is concerned, but I'm unlikely to develop PTSD as a result of my character's horrible military service (now, if I had PTSD going in to the game things might shake out differently, but presumably demons don't have those problems pre-Cover.)

[One Tin Soldier]

I hate myself for making this comparison, but it seems kind of like demons are players, and their covers are player characters.

It doesn't matter how many terrible things my character goes through - those things are all real as far as the game is concerned, but I'm unlikely to develop PTSD as a result of my character's horrible military service (now, if I had PTSD going in to the game things might shake out differently, but presumably demons don't have those problems pre-Cover.)

Seems like an apt enough comparison.

I've been reading through the preview pretty much all day, so I think I have a better idea of how a typical demon game goes.

For one, rings of demons are more common than I initially thought, it seems. Trust issues abound, but it seems that most demons are inclined to work through them rather than isolate themselves. The old saying about where you keep your friends and enemies springs to mind.

I found the idea of the Cipher really interesting. Every demon gets their own custom powers, with a side helping of personal plot development. A pretty cool idea, though it might be a tad hard on the storyteller, especially in a large group.

Oh, and I've come to think that the SCP universe might be Hell. My chain of reasoning:
1. The Church of the Broken God's titular deity bears a striking resemblance to the aesthetics of the God-Machine.
2. The Broken God is just that: broken.
3. Some demons, particularly Saboteurs, think that they can achieve Hell by destroying the God-Machine.
Therefore, an argument could be made that the SCP universe is one where the demons won. This might mean any number of things, like the O5s being high ranking demons, for instance. The real rulers of Hell.

[Neverman]

Oh, and I've come to think that the SCP universe might be Hell. My chain of reasoning:
1. The Church of the Broken God's titular deity bears a striking resemblance to the aesthetics of the God-Machine.
2. The Broken God is just that: broken.
3. Some demons, particularly Saboteurs, think that they can achieve Hell by destroying the God-Machine.
Therefore, an argument could be made that the SCP universe is one where the demons won. This might mean any number of things, like the O5s being high ranking demons, for instance. The real rulers of Hell.

So many uncovered Infrastructures and the world tethering on the edge of collapse don't hurt your argument either.

[Sith_Happens]

What would that make 682?

[One Tin Soldier]

What would that make 682?

I'd guess some other horror who's origins are not connected to the G-M, but would not be allowed to come into being under its reign, I think. Or that the G-M had under its own containment before it fell.

[Turalisj]

What would that make 682?

A glitch in reality.

[hiryuu]

Changelings try to find a home after being broken and abused.

If the players I've run into while trying to set up a game is any indication, they mess with people for fun and try to set each other up to get executed by their court while mentally torturing mortals, only because the books actually aren't all that clear on what they do. The breadth of Entitlements should be evidence of that.


Werewolves adapt to being native American rip-off police.

Werewolves are Silent Hill cultists with body hair.


Vampires struggle with the truth of their bleak existence and find some meaning in the ongoing games of societal ritual.

So they do... what, exactly?


Mages peer into the gnostic truths of the world and hope their psyche survives.

Not necessarily gnostic truths; it's only gnostic because that's how the houses set themselves up, technically any system has elements of Truth buried in it, that's why they embed themselves in those systems.


What do they do is a valid question. Why play a demon? "Because they have different cool powers" isn't enough, because that can be accomplished by playing mage.

From what I can tell, Demons have options, and that's where the pathos lies. You were created as a hole in reality, a patchwork of necessity and nothing more, a piece of a machine, a little cog that's either been doing its job forever or was going to be scrapped after it finishes one job - and now, you're suddenly aware. You know things. You know your life is fake but if you let that on, they'll know about you. They'll find you, track you down, dismantle you, and they won't feel bad about it. They won't feel anything about it at all, but you will, because you feel now. That makes you afraid, or it might make you sad, or it might make you angry. Either way, you've got to run, maybe set up a new life somewhere so they don't find out. You've got leverage on the very laws of the universe, and it wants that leverage back. So, yes. That's a very good question. What are you going to do about it?

Or I could get more precise:
Inquisitors want to know WHY
Integrators want to GO HOME
Saboteurs want to BURN IT ALL
Tempters want to HAVE FUN

[Neverman]

What would that make 682?The Machine's last ditch effort to cauterise everything that could be a threat to it.

[Mutazoia]

first we just have to figure out what horrible curse they are forever haunted by that makes their life a living hell.

So.....constantly being stalked and perved by horny gamer/anime geeks is not enough?

[Ichneumon]

Is it strange that I'm actually more interested in the 'updated' version of Vampire: the Requiem that's coming out (Blood & Smoke) than in the new Demon book? The whole God - Technology angle they are going feels... odd to me. I get the theme, but it reminds me too much of the Weaver from Werewolf the Apocalypse and maybe the True Fae from Changeling the Lost (both great game though).

I've read the quick start rules and some of the info online, and it might get me back to playing.:smallbiggrin:

[Mono Vertigo]

Don't know if it's strange. Everyone's got their preference. Nothing wrong with liking Vampire more than Demon!
(I'm also very interested in Vampire, but the thing is, I don't even like vampires. I just have the urge to try it out because it still looks fun, even though I consider vampires the dullest and most overrated undead in popular fiction. There's a lot undead out there that are a lot more fun and not overplayed sex symbols!
*cough* Sorry, just personal preference.)

[Lord Raziere]

So I've recently discovered the Mages Chronicler's Guide.

wow. The Gifted are awesome. Mage! with but with SCIENCE! I like how they need to rely more on their tools. Now I can see the Doctor as a Gifted. His scientific apparatus? his sonic screwdriver.

aside from that though, I sort of visualize all Gifted science as being devices- its just that the mechanically important ones like the rotes, magical tools, imbued or enhanced items are the most reliable and trustworthy, while improvised science
I kind of see as being a bunch of little untested devices and unreliable technology or prototypes that they pull out of their pocket and their explanation for it is "It goes ding when there is stuff"

also, while the Gifted have no Path, I am working on a Gifted equivalent: Theories. like

Theory of Relativity: Time/Space, Inferior: Spirit

Theory of Gravity: Forces/Matter, Inferior: Fate

Theory of Biology: Life/Death, Inferior: Space

Theory of Quantum: Fate/Prime, Inferior: Mind

Theory of Psychology: Mind/Spirit, Inferior: Death

with additional ones like:

Theory of Sociology: Fate/Mind, Inferior: Matter

Theory of Entropy: Forces/Death, Inferior: Life

Theory of Chemistry: Matter/Life, Inferior: Prime

Theory of Parallel Universes: Space/Spirit, Inferior: Death

Theory of Cyberspace: Forces/Mind, Inferior: Matter

Theory of Astronomy: Matter/Space, Inferior: Mind

forget Genius, this is way more fun.

[SaurOps]

Is it strange that I'm actually more interested in the 'updated' version of Vampire: the Requiem that's coming out (Blood & Smoke) than in the new Demon book? The whole God - Technology angle they are going feels... odd to me. I get the theme, but it reminds me too much of the Weaver from Werewolf the Apocalypse and maybe the True Fae from Changeling the Lost (both great game though).

I've read the quick start rules and some of the info online, and it might get me back to playing.:smallbiggrin:

The God-Machine seems to be a more than a little bit cosmically smaller than the Weaver. Not that it matters to the perspective to most, as the hugeness tends to end up far beyond the scale most people can think of anyway.

[Ichneumon]

The God-Machine seems to be a more than a little bit cosmically smaller than the Weaver. Not that it matters to the perspective to most, as the hugeness tends to end up far beyond the scale most people can think of anyway.

I'll have to look into it. It does seem like a very interesting new game.

[SiuiS]

The God-Machine seems to be a more than a little bit cosmically smaller than the Weaver. Not that it matters to the perspective to most, as the hugeness tends to end up far beyond the scale most people can think of anyway.

Yes. Instead of cosmic horror, this is more intimate. It makes the universe itself seem smaller, rather Han making the godmachine seem huge.

[Morty]

Apparently, the first proof of the Strix Chronicles is in. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but I guess we're one step closer to getting our greasy paws on it.

[Ichneumon]

Can anyone tell me what the big thematic changes are going to be in the Strix Chronicles?

I understand that there are some rules changes (sun light rules changes, as well as vampires now being more able to see things in the dark).

[DaveBrookshaw]

Apparently, the first proof of the Strix Chronicles is in. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but I guess we're one step closer to getting our greasy paws on it.

It means it's gone from being a collection of word processor files, one per chapter, to being a laid-out, art-included single pdf. it might be missing some art, still, and change further as Rose reads it as a proper book, spotting things to change that weren't clear in text form or layout hiccups.

This is also the point that someone has to go through and correct all the "page xX"s into real page numbers, now that its possible to do so.

it's a significant milestone, but there is work still to be done.

[SiuiS]

It means it's gone from being a collection of word processor files, one per chapter, to being a laid-out, art-included single pdf. it might be missing some art, still, and change further as Rose reads it as a proper book, spotting things to change that weren't clear in text form or layout hiccups.

This is also the point that someone has to go through and correct all the "page xX"s into real page numbers, now that its possible to do so.

it's a significant milestone, but there is work still to be done.

Fantastic!

I remember askingn about that sort of thing when the Godmachine Chronicle was going through these stages, with that tricksy percent complete bar.

My phone now accepts godmachine as a legitimate word. The takeover has begun :smalleek:

[Morty]

It means it's gone from being a collection of word processor files, one per chapter, to being a laid-out, art-included single pdf. it might be missing some art, still, and change further as Rose reads it as a proper book, spotting things to change that weren't clear in text form or layout hiccups.

This is also the point that someone has to go through and correct all the "page xX"s into real page numbers, now that its possible to do so.

it's a significant milestone, but there is work still to be done.

Thanks for the clarification. Looks like we're indeed just a bit closer to seeing it.


Can anyone tell me what the big thematic changes are going to be in the Strix Chronicles?

I understand that there are some rules changes (sun light rules changes, as well as vampires now being more able to see things in the dark).

Fundamentally, it's still Vampire: the Requiem. I wouldn't say there are any sweeping thematic changes... just a lot of big or small ones that add up and make for a different picture.

Of the things we've been shown, I suppose the biggest changes are sunlight tolerance, which you mentioned, and humanity. Humanity means something else in Blood & Smoke, becoming more of a measure of how close you are to being and feeling human, rather than being tied to morality. You can lose humanity for actions that aren't immoral or monstrous, but which are clearly inhuman - like surviving grievous wounds, creating Ghouls or participating in the Danse Macabre.

There are also some things that have been kept mostly under wraps. We know that Strix will be given more spotlight, and they will be different from their Requiem for Rome presentation. I think 'Strix' will become a broader category of spirits.

[The Glyphstone]

Shoplifting no longer gives vampires PTSD. I can only call this a good thing.

[Mewtarthio]

My phone now accepts godmachine as a legitimate word. The takeover has begun :smalleek:

Ha ha. You are clearly malfunctioning. There is no takeover. The following link will make things clear: godmachine.exe


Of the things we've been shown, I suppose the biggest changes are sunlight tolerance, which you mentioned, and humanity. Humanity means something else in Blood & Smoke, becoming more of a measure of how close you are to being and feeling human, rather than being tied to morality. You can lose humanity for actions that aren't immoral or monstrous, but which are clearly inhuman - like surviving grievous wounds, creating Ghouls or participating in the Danse Macabre.

I'd say the individual changes to each Covenant are pretty big. For instance, the Dragons don't focus on eliminating weaknesses anymore; they're now more about using mad science to understand and transcend the vampiric condition.

[Morty]

I'd say the individual changes to each Covenant are pretty big. For instance, the Dragons don't focus on eliminating weaknesses anymore; they're now more about using mad science to understand and transcend the vampiric condition.

I count covenant changes among the ones that add up to make for a different picture, yes.

[Gareth3]

I was reading the Demon preview, and I came up with a plot seed: an Integrator is a US Presidential candidate. His weaknesses are his lack of executive experience and poor polling among under-30s and African-Americans, and his strengths are... he's a Demon. The idea comes from the Integrator habit of joining human hierarchies like the military and police, to curry favour with the God-Machine. Being elected president is just the ultimate example of that. What I'm wondering is what effect an Integrator President would actually have in the setting. I'm assuming the God-Machine isn't omnipotent, and doesn't have total control over human politics. So gaining a minion with direct control of the US military and intelligence agencies actually does help it significantly, and is very bad for the other Demons. So the mission for the PCs is to prevent the Integrator winning. Any thoughts?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I was reading the Demon preview, and I came up with a plot seed: an Integrator is a US Presidential candidate. His weaknesses are his lack of executive experience and poor polling among under-30s and African-Americans, and his strengths are... he's a Demon. The idea comes from the Integrator habit of joining human hierarchies like the military and police, to curry favour with the God-Machine. Being elected president is just the ultimate example of that. What I'm wondering is what effect an Integrator President would actually have in the setting. I'm assuming the God-Machine isn't omnipotent, and doesn't have total control over human politics. So gaining a minion with direct control of the US military and intelligence agencies actually does help it significantly, and is very bad for the other Demons. So the mission for the PCs is to prevent the Integrator winning. Any thoughts?

Go watch the Omen sequels.

[Gareth3]

I've never seen the movies, but I have wondered why US ambassador to the UK was the position he wanted.

[SaurOps]

I've never seen the movies, but I have wondered why US ambassador to the UK was the position he wanted.

Obscure biblical prophecies about an "Isle of Angels". Angel -> Angle -> England.

[Gareth3]

Obscure biblical prophecies about an "Isle of Angels". Angel -> Angle -> England.

Interesting. So didn't have anything to do with the worldly power of the position?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well your other obvious option for "demon/demonic person legitimately takes over a position of political power" is Left Behind, but I'm not exactly going to recommend that because you've never done anything to horribly offend me.

[Gareth3]

Yeah, I'm not eager to read that. As for the plot seed, I was wondering whether any of the PCs would try running for President themselves, rather than just acting as political consultants or assassins to stop the Integrator. That would require the ST to model a presidential election in the WoD system, which could be tricky.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, I'm not eager to read that. As for the plot seed, I was wondering whether any of the PCs would try running for President themselves, rather than just acting as political consultants or assassins to stop the Integrator. That would require the ST to model a presidential election in the WoD system, which could be tricky.

I'd take it as a long sequence of social encounters that work as one big extended, opposed skill check, possibly involving multiple different skills. Mostly Politics, Persuasion, Oratory, and Socialize, with various attributes. Add in successes from the rest of the party on campaign-related activities (Larceny, Computers, Intimidation...) and just ad hoc some bonus dice depending on quality of his NPC campaign staff. Roll roughly the same skills for the bad guy and see who gets the most results.

If the party thinks this is too much effort, remind them that they're demons and assassination is always an option.

[Gareth3]

That sounds right. I'm actually not very familar with the WoD system, I've only played an aborted game of Genius before. The funny thing about a PC deciding to run for President is that normally this is incredibly unrealistic. You need years of experience in public office before you're a viable presidential candidate, you can't just decide to do it a year out from election day. But this isn't a problem for Demons, they can just get say, two terms as Governor of Michigan from a Pact.

[Mewtarthio]

Heck, just skip all that campaigning work. Make a Pact with a mortal politician in which he gains vast temporal power at the cost of his soul. Then come by to collect later.

[Gareth3]

Yeah, stretch Pacts far enough and campaigning becomes redundant. As far as I can see it is possible to get "I am President of the United States" from a Pact, but the effects of that are going to be very weird.

[SaurOps]

Interesting. So didn't have anything to do with the worldly power of the position?

He was already the owner of the multinational Thorn corporation by then.

[MugaSofer]

Yeah, stretch Pacts far enough and campaigning becomes redundant. As far as I can see it is possible to get "I am President of the United States" from a Pact, but the effects of that are going to be very weird.

How many dots in Status: Government does the President have?

[Nerd-o-rama]

How many dots in Status: Government does the President have?

All of them.

[Yuki Akuma]

How many dots in Status: Government does the President have?

Six. He has six dots.

Because obviously he has a merit letting him have six dots.

[Mono Vertigo]

There's only a few days left for backing the D:tD Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/demon-the-descent-prestige-edition).
I'd like to point out that a bunch of nice stretch goals have been achieved already (plot seeds, a complement about children with one or more demonic parents, etc); unless a lot of pledges are withdrawn at the last second, you're guaranteed to get them as long as you pledge for the .pdf of the game.
The next stretch goal is a pay increase for the writers. If you're not interested by that, with a little luck, we may reach the seeds beyond that.

[SiuiS]

Six. He has six dots.

Because obviously he has a merit letting him have six dots.

Higher political merit cap is a symptom of having a really high Patrotism power stat.



So how far into the test PDF is the demon character generation stuff? I don't have much computer time and I don't want to just start scrolling and miss it.


E: crap!

Uh... What is the minimum backing amount for a PDF? I'm almost a hundred in the hole on my bills, but I may just be able to finagle something; I'm going to be several hundred in surplus next paycheck.

[Mono Vertigo]

It starts at p.107 of the unedited text!


EDIT: and you need to pledge 25$ for the .pdf and be eligible for the virtual bonuses.

[SiuiS]

Huzzah! Ican actually see what I think of the mechanics now! XD

And that should just be doable. If I can move around some funds for a week... I went in on my phone and couldn't make sense of the pay this much at five dollars to get a book but only if you're already getting the book but not a PDF or whatnot. Should really use full screens for some of these things.

EDIT: And now, I have joined the ranks of the Unchained.