How would you change vampires to be playable?

[Immabozo]

So I have a DM thinking about doing a campaign with mandatory everyone is undead. He might be waiving X level adjustment. So I am wondering, how much vampire LA would have to be waived for the template to be playable? Also, is the +8 LA inflated beyond where it should be? Or is it where it should be and just unplayable because the cost is so high?

I've seen threads about remaking the template with lower LA and nerfed abilities. But I cant find them, can someone like them?

Also, under this circumstances, what undead would you play? Which is the best? What class pairs best with it (dont forget, low magic, not sure how exactly he is planning to do it)?

[Snowbluff]

I usually suggest the Half-Vampire template.

Vampire itself is hard to gauge a proper LA for, since its abilities can be very strong but the HD loss crippling.

The Savage Progression ghost is probably the best overall. Dry Lich is also rather good. Necropolitan is the go to undead for those who do not wish to have LA.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That +8 is very inflated. I have seen as low as +4 work in modestly optimized parties.

I would totally be a mummy (LG cleric of Wee Jas) or gravetouched ghoul (CN Cleric of Doresain). The ghoul also makes for a decent monk, while the mummy doubles as a fighter.

[Humble Master]

If I wanted to be optimized I would be a Wight. Screw Leadership, I have an army as a racial ability!

Other than that, Drowned or maybe Hecuva.

[Psyren]

Use the Pathfinder Vampire. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire)

[Tvtyrant]

Play it as is, and then allow the player to level quickly until they feel about equal to the rest of the party. Having a system is good, but a lot of the time it is more effective to simply walk your shots.

[Immabozo]

I usually suggest the Half-Vampire template.

where can I find half-vampire?


That +8 is very inflated. I have seen as low as +4 work in modestly optimized parties.

I would totally be a mummy (LG cleric of Wee Jas) or gravetouched ghoul (CN Cleric of Doresain). The ghoul also makes for a decent monk, while the mummy doubles as a fighter.

I might try suggesting the lower LA. I'll also check out Mummy and ghoul. Good ideas! Those are just the MM ones, right?


If I wanted to be optimized I would be a Wight. Screw Leadership, I have an army as a racial ability!

Other than that, Drowned or maybe Hecuva.

Wight is very funny indeed! Drowned is in MM I, right? and I have no clue where to find Hecuva!


Use the Pathfinder Vampire. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire)

I cant find a LA entry. Is it no LA? That seems ridiculous


Play it as is, and then allow the player to level quickly until they feel about equal to the rest of the party. Having a system is good, but a lot of the time it is more effective to simply walk your shots.

That is an incredibly good idea! I'll suggest that as a fall back option

[Xuldarinar]

Just get the Libris Mortus. It has everything you need.

Undead monster classes (vampire included)
Half-vampire template.
Various variants on clasic undead (vampire variants included)


Feats, PrCs, and more!

[Karnith]

where can I find half-vampire?Libris Mortis, in that book's chapter on monsters. Also, it doesn't actually make you undead.

I might try suggesting the lower LA. I'll also check out Mummy and ghoul. Good ideas! Those are just the MM ones, right?You can be a normal mummy, which would involve RHD, or you could apply the Mummified template from Libris Mortis, which would be +4 LA (a mummy's normal LA, but it doesn't involve RHD). With being a Ghoul, you could either suck up the RHD, or just be a Gravetouched Ghoul for +2 LA and all the normal Ghoul abilities (at a lower LA than normal ghouls have, oddly).

Wight is very funny indeed! Drowned is in MM I, right? and I have no clue where to find Hecuva!Drowned is in MM3, but it has 20 HD and LA: -, so it's not really suitable for players. Huecuva is in the Fiend Folio, and it can only be applied to clerics, druids, paladins, and monks. Also it gives you -6 Int and doesn't have a LA listed. While this technically means that it doesn't affect the LA of the base creature, your DM will probably have something to say about that.

I cant find a LA entry. Is it no LA? That seems ridiculous
Pathfinder LA for monsters/templates is usually equal to the CR increase, if I am accurately informed.

I would personally probably go with either Death Knight (LA +5, MMII) or Death Knight of Krynn (LA +5, Dragonlance Campaign Setting; basically Death Knight+). Not amazing, but cool.

Also, if you just get a flat +X LA for free, consider just adding the Evolved Undead template (Libris Mortis again; +1 Natural Armor, +2 Strength, +2 Cha, Fast Healing 3, and a spell-like ability of your choice from a short list) to your character until you hit the max for your free LA.

[Immabozo]

snip

I just found my new best friend. Please teach me your was, oh knowledgeable one!

Thank you so much!

[Psyren]

I cant find a LA entry. Is it no LA? That seems ridiculous.

It's +2. CR is LA in PF, with buyoff included baseline instead of as a variant rule.

PF races are more powerful however, so if you're running him alongside the 3.5 ones you would need to add an extra point or two - but it would still be a far cry from +8.

[ArcturusV]

Eh. It's not the LA that makes Vampires unplayable in my book. It's the Vampiric weaknesses that makes them unplayable. 8 (or 5 for a spawn) is a bit hard to take, sure... but it's not quite as crippling as the fact that suddenly a 3 foot wide stream is an adventure stopping obstacle for your character. Or that you have to carry around a useless box all the time, and if you don't... might be game over. Or that anyone with a holy symbol can keep you at bay. Or the fact that simple sunlight will burn you dead unless you spend almost all your WBL on an alchemical item that makes you immune to it for just 1 hour per dose. Or that you can't enter a building unless invited...

It's THOSE things that have made Vampires unplayable around my table. Much more so than LA ever did. It might not cripple you if you're running a campaign that takes place entirely in a dungeon or something (Though the invite thing might still hose you). But for the average campaign I've seen, run, and/or played in? You wouldn't even make it past the first day.

So I'd nix the running water thing. At least make the holy symbol thing be related to a "true believer" so that a Commoner 1 can't necessarily automatically fend you off all day long.... the sunlight one though is a real problem. It's killer. It's also so typically vampiric that I don't necessarily want to axe it entirely. At the very least thinking of inverse age rules perhaps? "Fresh" Vampires (Low level, newly turned, etc) don't have sunlight weaknesses as badly. Maybe just exposure makes them count as fatigued. As they age/gain power and become more "vampiric" the weakness gets stronger until it's at their full weakness (But they should be powerful enough/old enough to have researched some magic to do it or be able to afford knocking back alchemy all the time). Might work as part of a "Fix" to the Vampire Spawn monster class...

... it'd be interesting to see. Maybe if I"m feeling ambitious some day and a player tells me they want to run a vampire.

[Immabozo]

Eh. It's not the LA that makes Vampires unplayable in my book. It's the Vampiric weaknesses that makes them unplayable. 8 (or 5 for a spawn) is a bit hard to take, sure... but it's not quite as crippling as the fact that suddenly a 3 foot wide stream is an adventure stopping obstacle for your character. Or that you have to carry around a useless box all the time, and if you don't... might be game over. Or that anyone with a holy symbol can keep you at bay. Or the fact that simple sunlight will burn you dead unless you spend almost all your WBL on an alchemical item that makes you immune to it for just 1 hour per dose. Or that you can't enter a building unless invited...

It's THOSE things that have made Vampires unplayable around my table. Much more so than LA ever did. It might not cripple you if you're running a campaign that takes place entirely in a dungeon or something (Though the invite thing might still hose you). But for the average campaign I've seen, run, and/or played in? You wouldn't even make it past the first day.

So I'd nix the running water thing. At least make the holy symbol thing be related to a "true believer" so that a Commoner 1 can't necessarily automatically fend you off all day long.... the sunlight one though is a real problem. It's killer. It's also so typically vampiric that I don't necessarily want to axe it entirely. At the very least thinking of inverse age rules perhaps? "Fresh" Vampires (Low level, newly turned, etc) don't have sunlight weaknesses as badly. Maybe just exposure makes them count as fatigued. As they age/gain power and become more "vampiric" the weakness gets stronger until it's at their full weakness (But they should be powerful enough/old enough to have researched some magic to do it or be able to afford knocking back alchemy all the time). Might work as part of a "Fix" to the Vampire Spawn monster class...

... it'd be interesting to see. Maybe if I"m feeling ambitious some day and a player tells me they want to run a vampire.

But I just did! I guess today you arent feeling ambitious?

But, you are right, those weaknesses are crippling. Vampires can go gaseous form, or alt form and fly over the water, right? Maybe I can apply "evolved undead" and get my DM to "evolve" him into a "Daywalker" like Blade (from the movies)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

In an undead-only campaign I'd play a Necropolitan with templates to make up any free level adjustment I got.

[Belril Duskwalk]

For a start point, I would work up from the Pathfinder Race Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-dhampir)
Half Vampires boiled down to a 'normal' LA 0 PC race.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I was only point Half-Vampire because it's vampiric, bot because it's undead.

Another little gem is Sword Wraith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040202a). Strength damage added to your attacks and DR/Magic AND Slashing.

[Jeff the Green]

I'd make them like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8056982&postcount=173).

[ArcturusV]

Actually no. The weaknesses state that the only way they can go over water is inside their coffin or on a ship. So you can't fly, or mist, etc. Teleport perhaps. So say you're in a castle with a moat. You can't just walk over the drawbridge. You need to be carried over in your coffin. If said castle didn't want vampires... a simple "you go to town to resupply" turns into a huge issue. Or your vampire is forced to sit out a session, outside of town.

Course you can get around it I believe if your base race has a natural swim speed. But you shouldn't have to play a Sea Elf or Darfellan or River Spirit Folk, etc, just to be a Vampire without major hassles.

Making the "Vampire Spawn" Monster class better would be a decent project, a few hours out perhaps. Might also come up with a "master vampire" template for when the Spawn levels out that can be applied, sort of like the Saint Template for Exalted characters. Be a fun project but I doubt I'd do it without a campaign cooking up to use it in. Lack of possible use being why I never finished the Elemental Paladins I was working on either.

[Flickerdart]

The weaknesses state that the only way they can go over water is inside their coffin or on a ship.
Seems fairly easy to take care of, if a little pricey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#swanBoat).

[limejuicepowder]

I never liked the DnD vampires; their LA is completely awful, and their weaknesses are too many and too crippling.

Instead, I'd make an entirely new template based on the vamps from elder scrolls: oblivian. They had something of an inverse relation with blood where the longer they go without drinking the stronger and more animalistic they get - and the more the sun bothers them.

[Raven777]

Note that the Pathfinder Vampires are only damaged by running water, with no RAW stopping them from teleporting/flying/walking over them. Crossing rivers in PF just becomes a question of finding a bridge or casting Dimension Door.

Note that the Pathfinder Vampires, if following the undead feeding rules from Blood of the Night (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8v33) (look at that cover art, she's playing a Vampire and having so much fun!), do not specifically need to feed on sapient beings. Wild animals and cattle do the job. But do feed on sapient beings anyway, because in the end, it just deals them 1d4 Con damage which will heal within the next four days, tops. Carry a couple scrolls of Lesser Restoration in case they complain.

Finally, note that Pathfinder has Protective Penumbra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protective-penumbra). Get a permanent amulet of it for... napkin math... 18,000gp and learn the spell yourself just in case the item gets dispelled, and you can now sunbath with the rest of your party.

[Worira]

Put coffin in cart, drive cart into town. Not that most moats are likely to be filled with running water anyway.

[Immabozo]

Put coffin in cart, drive cart into town. Not that most moats are likely to be filled with running water anyway.

Truth, but some are.

curious, what would happen to a lycanthrope if he became undead? would it still be a lycanthrop? If it regained life, would the lycanthropy be the same? Maybe some new strain of lycanthropy!

[Nagukuk]

The big issue as you have seen with an all undead campaign is the crippling LA most of the "cool" undead have. The sucky part about this is the players are allowed to be undead, but the "best" undead to be in this case are the "barely undead things" anyway Necropoliti, (which would work in most normal instances anyway) 1/2 vamp etc...

IF everyone is going to be undead have the DM forgive some of the LA (not count it give it for free or what ever)

You WILL hate your self if you bring a +8LA vamp to the table with 10 hitpoints while the Necropoop is a lvl 9 what ever class with crap tons of spells feats class abilities one or more prestige classes and 10times more HP than you. Sure you regen and have DR and have a bunch of other abilities, but the fact that a few fire finger cantrips will "mist" you let alone a few magic missiles or ONE good long sword strike... you get the message ...

Forgive the LA is one possibility, give free/bonus HD = half your LA works ok, (im currently involved in an undead campaign that has done that) its not the best solution, but it makes it a bit more survivable, although you will still take a long time to level up.

Also - if you are worried about clerics and turning - Death Knights cannot be turned, AND they come built in with their own little leadership like ability... :)

PS: Do not read about the feeding restrictions of ANY undead in the stupid azz Libris Mortis ... that section was written by a masochistic doushe' that i would like to kick in the nutz for an hour every Thursday just to show him massochism aint all that cool. :smallmad:

[GamingFreak]

If you could convince the DM you could play a Dhampir and then add the Vampire Template on it. For fluff just state it is a Dhampir whos vampiric blood is growing stronger as he ages (Requires 5 hd so lvl 5 min). Also the Dayborn trait gives Dhampir the resistance to sunlight so you could argue it would remove the sunlight weakness or just reduce it to the original Dhampir weakness of
Light Sensitivity: Dhampirs are dazzled in areas of bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Maybe Trade in one of the defense traits (Either Undead Resistance or Resist Level Drain) for reducing the over water weakness to a check, maybe use a Concentration Skill Check of a DC of 15 or 20 the GM's choice.

I hope it helps.

[Rubik]

What if you used a race with a bite attack (preferably Con drain, such as an anthropomorphic weasel), added on divine minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), necropolitan, and the evolved undead template, played a character class that would grant you vampire-like abilities, then refluffed? You'd have the best parts of being a vampire with hardly any of the (ridiculously horrible) problems presented by the actual template.

Alternately, forego anthro-weasel and add a few levels of psychic warrior for Bite of the Wolf, Claws of the Beast, and Claws of the Vampire.

[Fax Celestis]

Drop the Create Spawn ability, limit the Dominate and Children of the Night abilities to a couple times a day (3+CHA?), drop a few of the bonus feats (I'd leave Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative), drop the LA to +2, call it a day.

[hamishspence]

the Vampiric Dragon template (Draconomicon) seems to have comparable power and less in the way of weaknesses.

Not vulnerable to immersion in water.
Can freely cross running water
Not repelled by garlic or mirrors

And at a lower LA: +5.

No damage reduction though.

[Snowbluff]

Drop the Create Spawn ability, limit the Dominate and Children of the Night abilities to a couple times a day (3+CHA?), drop a few of the bonus feats (I'd leave Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative), drop the LA to +2, call it a day.

Ahahahahahahaha! 3+cha dominate at level 3? Hahahahahahaha!

[Karnith]

Ahahahahahahaha! 3+cha dominate at level 3? Hahahahahahaha!
So far as I'm aware, there's no real way in-game to create a vampire with less than 5 HD, so it'd be at ECL 7.

[Snowbluff]

So far as I'm aware, there's no real way in-game to create a vampire with less than 5 HD, so it'd be at ECL 7.

Cut my laughter in half. This template you got here is crazy.

"Ohai, social encounter!" *dominates*

"Traps?" *wolfs or stuff, idk*

Three Times per day is crazy for either of these abilities is crazy. If it was ecl 12 and/or a higher la I might get off of the floor.

[Tvtyrant]

So far as I'm aware, there's no real way in-game to create a vampire with less than 5 HD, so it'd be at ECL 7.

Sacrifice rules in the BoVD, sacrifice a heap of people in order to get a free wish.

You need a +50 on your religion roll, which means getting up to a +30 and then taking 20 by sacrificing one person after another.

[Rubik]

Sacrifice rules in the BoVD, sacrifice a heap of people in order to get a free wish.

You need a +50 on your religion roll, which means getting up to a +30 and then taking 20 by sacrificing one person after another.Then you can make your wish and sparkle like a man.

[Fax Celestis]

Cut my laughter in half. This template you got here is crazy.

"Ohai, social encounter!" *dominates*

"Traps?" *wolfs or stuff, idk*

Three Times per day is crazy for either of these abilities is crazy. If it was ecl 12 and/or a higher la I might get off of the floor.

Please note that the recommendations I made were relevant to the thread in question (undead campaign, some free LA).

[Snowbluff]

Please note that the recommendations I made were relevant to the thread in question (undead campaign, some free LA).

So is it 2 la before the reduction or after?

I suggested half vampire because it's low LA, and it gives vampire abilities. If you want other crazy powers and the undead type, you can pick up other la, or replicate them through class features. No rules changes or he brewing required to be effective and cool.

[Fax Celestis]

So is it 2 la before the reduction or after?
After.


I suggested half vampire because it's low LA, and it gives vampire abilities. If you want other crazy powers and the undead type, you can pick up other la, or replicate them through class features. No rules changes or he brewing required to be effective and cool.What is with this attitude?

EDIT: Never mind, making a new thread for that discussion.

[ArcturusV]

But I just did! I guess today you arent feeling ambitious?

But, you are right, those weaknesses are crippling. Vampires can go gaseous form, or alt form and fly over the water, right? Maybe I can apply "evolved undead" and get my DM to "evolve" him into a "Daywalker" like Blade (from the movies)

Well, more ambitious today. Not exactly a kitbasher extrodinaire, but this is probably how I'd go about making a Vampire Playable from level 1 onwards:

Vampire Monster Class:

Follows the rules in general from Liber Mortis. This class changes your type to undead, you still have your base race traits (Stat Adjustments, Racial Bonuses, Bonus Feats, etc). Hit dice are all changed to d12, your con score is -. You may multiclass out of this freely before finishing the progression.

Class Skills:
Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (History). Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot.

Skill points per level 4 + Int Mod (4 + Int x 4 at first level).

Hit Dice: d12 per level plus Charisma Modifier

Class Features:

Vampire's Might:
Starting at 1st level you gain a natural bite attack, inflicting 1d4 damage + 150% of your strength modifier.
At level 3 you gain two claw attacks, dealing 1d6 + strength modifier damage. Your Bite now deals Constitution damage to Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid targets, instead of lethal damage (Still does lethal damage to other targets).
At level 5 each point of constitution damage you inflict with your bite grants you 1 Temporary HP, and 1 Blood Point.
At level 7 if you should drain a target to 0 Constitution with your Bite attack, it dies. 1d4 days later, if the body is still intact and has not been blessed/buried in consecrated ground, it raises as a Ghoul under your control. If it is buried or otherwise placed in a desecrated area, it is raised as a Vampire Spawn instead.

Vampire's Mantle:
At level 1 you gain +1 Natural AC for every level of Vampire you have. You gain a +2 Racial bonus to Balance, Climb, Move Silently, and Hide. This bonus explicitly stacks with any racial bonus that your original race may have had.
At level 2 your Racial Bonus to Balance, Climb, Move Silently, and Hide increases to +4.
At level 4, when you are undetected by a target you deal double damage on your first attack against the target (Target must be unaware of you and flatfooted in relation to you. Being invisible would not count by itself, invisible and hiding would. Having a target balancing, but aware of you, would not count).
At level 6 you are considered to have the effects of the Spider Climb spell active at all times. Additionally you may use Run and Charge actions while under the effects of Spider Climb's movement.
At level 8 you may spend a Blood Point to Fly (As per the spell, with Caster Level equal to your Vampire Level plus any Arcane Caster Levels) as an immediate action.

Vampire's Blood:
At level 1 you may feast upon any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or animal that has been killed in the last 10 minutes. If you do so, you gain a blood point.
You may spend a Blood Point to take 10 on a check even if threatened, gain a +2 bonus to a single roll (Attack, damage, skill checks, etc), spending up to 3 times your Vampire Level in Blood Points on a single roll.
At level 3 you may spend a Blood Point to make a target attacking you, making an opposed skill check, or making a saving throw against an effect you caused reroll after seeing their result. You must accept the new result regardless of outcome.
At level 5 you may spend Blood Points to spontaneously cast a Necromancy, Illusion, or Enchantment spell off the Sorcerer/Wizard list. You must spend blood points equal to the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell. You cannot spend more Blood Points on this ability than you have Vampire Levels. You cannot apply metamagic to spells cast this way. You may use Blood Point spells to fulfill magical crafting requirements.
At level 7 you may spend Blood Points on spells equal to twice your Vampire Level, rather than equal to. You may still only cast spells that a wizard/sorcerer of levels equal to your Vampire Level may cast (e.g.: You may cast a level 5 spell as if you had a caster level of 14).

Vampiric Resilience:
At level 2, you gain +2 in either Charisma, Dexterity, or Strength, and a +2 in either Wisdom or Intelligence.
At level 4, you get another +2 in Charisma, Dexterity, or Strength, and +2 in Wisdom or Intelligence.
At level 6, you gain DR 5/Silver or Holy.
At level 8, you gain DR 10/Silver and Holy.

Vampiric Frailty:
At level 1, you ignore the Vampire Weaknesses, they do not apply to you other than the following: If you are reduced to zero HP, you turn to mist to return to a coffin/grave. If you cannot return to one in 2 hours, you die. If you do, you are comatose and helpless until the next sunset (Must be at least 6 hours), at which time you rise with full HP and no Blood Points.
At level 2, if you are ever without Blood Points, you lose the effects of Vampiric Resilience and Vampiric Mantle.
At level 3, while you are exposed to Sunlight for more than 1 hour straight, you are Fatigued. If you are Fatigued and remain in the sun for more than 1 additional hour, you are Exhausted, effects that protect vampires from Sunlight also ward off this effect.
At level 4 you may be Turned/Rebuked by Clerics, though are given +8 Turn Resistance. Before level 4 you are not able to be Turned/Rebuked.
At level 5 someone who is aware of your existence as a Vampire may ward you off with a Holy Symbol if they are a true believer and it is a true symbol of faith (No impromptu/accidental symbols, if the person does not truly follow the faith of the icon it has no effect).
At level 6 exposure to Sunlight inflicts 2d4 damage to you per hour that cannot be prevented by any means. You may heal this damage normally, and effects that prevent a vampire from suffering ill effects from sunlight will prolong the countdown until the next burst of damage.
At level 7 any Fire spell/SLA or spell/SLA that inflicts Holy/Sanctified/Divine damage to you is effectively Empowered for free (Does not effect already empowered spells, only effects damage you take in the case of more than one target).
At level 8 You may be Commanded/Destroyed by Clerics, and your Turn Resistance is lowered to +4. True Believers presenting a Holy Symbol not only wards you off but inflicts 6d6 Holy Damage per round. Sunlight will destroy you if you are exposed to it for more than 1 hour. You may spend 10 blood points to ignore one hour of exposure to sunlight.


So something like that, an 8 level class. Some classic Vampire stuff. Some which has been dropped. I'm not a Kitbasher extrodinaire, so no promises about how good it is. But I'd rate it over the LM Vampire Spawn class at the very least. And being a level progression rather than LA might make it easier to bear. At the very least I don't think the weaknesses are so ungodly crippling that you couldn't adventure with one at low levels. And at higher levels where they ARE crippling, well, you have the tools available to deal with it at that point.

[Zero grim]

The main reason I think vampires have the huge LA is for the built in super leadership and dominate, Reduce the vampires LA from 8 to around 4 and change dominate for charm and use the undead leadership feat in place of your create spawn.

A vampire can Dominate anyone without being detect just by looking at them, then drain them and make them their own vampire minion that can do the same onwards forever, as some have said before the +8 LA isn't the bad part, its the weaknesses, just grab a swim speed and an item of darkness and you cancel out the two big ones, and a hat of disguise or better will go to help conceal your vampiric nature so its doubtful that people will shunt holy symbols in your face at all times.

[Immabozo]

What if you used a race with a bite attack (preferably Con drain, such as an anthropomorphic weasel), added on divine minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), necropolitan, and the evolved undead template, played a character class that would grant you vampire-like abilities, then refluffed? You'd have the best parts of being a vampire with hardly any of the (ridiculously horrible) problems presented by the actual template.

Alternately, forego anthro-weasel and add a few levels of psychic warrior for Bite of the Wolf, Claws of the Beast, and Claws of the Vampire.

Great suggestions everyone, thank you. I especially like this one. Very creative. Also goes with the wanting to make a beary mcbearington the bearbearian, with the turning into bears via divine minion thing. Hmmm, interesting....

[Tvtyrant]

Then you can make your wish and sparkle like a man.

Hey if my horrible Priest of Darkness wants to make blood run like rivers to sparkle, who is going to tell him no?

I'm certainly not :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

+1 Weasel.


The main reason I think vampires have the huge LA is for the built in super leadership and dominate, Reduce the vampires LA from 8 to around 4 and change dominate for charm and use the undead leadership feat in place of your create spawn. I think all of the other stuff is a bit much, too. Free Leadership should probably not be a thing.

@Fax: La 2 @ post-adjustment sounds better. Perhaps Dominate should be Charm, or just 3/day.

[Flickerdart]

So far as I'm aware, there's no real way in-game to create a vampire with less than 5 HD, so it'd be at ECL 7.
Vampire Lords may create full Vampires out of any humanoid.

[Immabozo]

Vampire Lords may create full Vampires out of any humanoid.

I was thinking about that template. IIRC, no LA for great abilities, you just have to already be a vampire. What book is it from?

I thing Faux's suggestion and the divine evolved necropolitan anthro-weasel are my two favorites. Thank so much! Keep 'em coming!

[Karnith]

I was thinking about that template. IIRC, no LA for great abilities, you just have to already be a vampire. What book is it from?It's actually not from a book; it's from a 3.0 web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). Also, it has no LA adjustment because the template lacks a level adjustment entry altogether, so your DM may well say something about it.

[Immabozo]

It's actually not from a book; it's from a 3.0 web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a). Also, it has no LA adjustment because the template lacks a level adjustment entry altogether, so your DM may well say something about it.

I swear I remember reading about it in a book or something. But thanks!

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Using Legacy Champion to advance the vampire template class (from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp). Click the "Gaining a Template Midcampaign" link). No houserules necessary. The classes in those articles specifically allow you to multiclass out before you're finished so the trick works. LC adds BAB/Saves/Skills etc. You can actually play a viable vamp this way (more viable than a normal one anyways. Though you can only take Legacy Champion levels after 10th level so it's a mid-game trick.

Or gain reliable Alter Self (like from the Thrall of Juiblex PRC) and change into a vampire spawn. Then take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat multiple times for the various supernatural abilities. It'll get you a lot of the iconic vamp abilities (though weakened).