Shapechange super cheese help

[WebTiefling]

My son wants to become a Great Wyrm Black Dragon because he likes the black dragons.

There is the Shapechange spell, but it is limited to "just" 25 HD, and a great wyrm black dragon is 37 HD. He would also like this to be Permanent. A form of Polymorph he would be fine, but Draconic Polymorph is capped at 20 HD.

He's a Half Dragon 17th level Sorcerer, so he's pushing Epic ECL, and he'll be gaining his 18th level pretty soon for access to the 9th level spells.

We could wait for him to develop an Epic version of Draconic Polymorph if I have to, but in real life it could be six months down the road. I would like to figure out a way he can do it now. I'll let him gain the necessary spells as soon as he gets to 18th level.

I know he's not optimized, he's going for flavor, mostly.

It seems that there must be some way to do this. I think it's possible to do just about everything else. The problem is that I can't figure out any possible mechanism for getting Draconic Polymorph or Shapechange beyond their HD restrictions. Any way to do this before he gets to Epic spell casting levels?

I need the help of the Giant in the Park.

[bekeleven]

Just double PaO into a smaller form and go to sleep for several hundred years until you grow.

[Platymus Pus]

Maybe wishing for it with multiple wishes at the same time?
Aside from that homebrew could work.

[Beige Dragon]

Make up a ritual? The heart of a black dragon, dipped in the juices of an elder brain, on an altar of gold, laid before the head of a dead god? Something fancy like that?

[Lightlawbliss]

Side quest. When the DM is ok with it happening and the party can't do it themselves, Side quest for it to happen.

[Piggy Knowles]

Polymorph into an Intellect Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/intellectDevourer.htm), take Assume Supernatural Ability, and use Body Thief on a recently dead or helpless great wyrm black dragon? That'll give you the body of one for a week. Only problem is finding and killing that great wyrm black dragon in the first place...

(This can also be done with Shapechange without need for Assume Supernatural Ability, but since he's short of ninths right now, I thought I'd suggest an earlier option.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Get a Power Stone of True Mind Switch and find a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. Knock it unconscious so that it can't resist and then use TMS to take it over.

Spend a feat on Assume Supernatural Ability for the breath weapon.

You are now permanently a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. You loose out on the spell like abilities but Shapechange would get rid of those as well.

Or just use the version of Shapechange in the first printing of the 3.5 PHB. It has a 50 HD limit. :smallwink:

[Jack_Simth]

Get a Power Stone of True Mind Switch and find a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. Knock it unconscious so that it can't resist and then use TMS to take it over.

Spend a feat on Assume Supernatural Ability for the breath weapon.

You are now permanently a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. You loose out on the spell like abilities but Shapechange would get rid of those as well.

Or just use the version of Shapechange in the first printing of the 3.5 PHB. It has a 50 HD limit. :smallwink:
Problem: True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) gets a clause from the Lesser version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) via inheritance: " You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level. "

[Emperor Tippy]

Problem: True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) gets a clause from the Lesser version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) via inheritance: " You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level. "

Solution: Use Wish to create a Power Stone of True Mind Switch with an ML of 37 (or just buy one).

Edit: Or just level drain the Dragon down to 17 HD temporarily. It's not like you would get its HD anyways so no problems.

[Lightlawbliss]

Tippy has spoken, anyone want to try to compete with him?

if not: /thread

[Vaz]

Just double PaO into a smaller form and go to sleep for several hundred years until you grow.

PAO twice doesn't work, the spell wouldn't stack with itself.

[Emperor Tippy]

PAO twice doesn't work, the spell wouldn't stack with itself.

That would be what is known as a houserule.

PAO does its duration adjudication based upon the form of the target at the time of casting. That said form will only last, say, 10 minutes is irrelevant.

PAO into a dragon and then PAO into a dragon again and you are only under the effects of one PAO (as the first is overwritten when the second PAO is cast) but that second PAO has a permanent duration.

[bekeleven]

PAO twice doesn't work, the spell wouldn't stack with itself.

The double PaO works because Polymorph reads:


The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Which means that you get an +5 on your duration factor to PaO it again into the same thing. Given that you're changing it to something of the same class, size, and intelligence, it's auto-permanent.

If there's a reason that multiple transmutations don't stack, I don't know it.

[Shazek]

Or change Sorcerer 17 into Sorcerer 7/Incantatrix 10, use Metamagic Effect to keep Shapechange Persisted, and take the Reserves of Strength feat from Dragonlance Campaign Setting to break the HD cap. CL shenanigans are easy enough at Epic Levels, so just boost your CL to 34 (Other 3 from Reserves of Strength) and have at it. I suggest getting a Minor Schema of Consumptive Field, a Bead of Karma, a Ring of Arcane Might, and a Ring of Theurgy. Cast your Consumptive field into your Ring of Theurgy, prepare it from there, use the aforementioned CL Boosters to hit 25 CL when you cast the field, which will give you a bonus of +12. Poof, you've got CL 37 for your buffs every morning. Just need to consume the lives of twelve creatures and take 5d6 damage per spell.

[Cruiser1]

you get an +5 on your duration factor to PaO it again into the same thing. Given that you're changing it to something of the same class, size, and intelligence, it's auto-permanent. If there's a reason that multiple transmutations don't stack, I don't know it.
Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) looks at your base unbuffed creature type when determining time limits. In the line, "the duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state", the original state means unbuffed state, not the state immediately before casting the spell. That means no casting Polymorph Any Object twice in a row to get a permanent duration, which was obviously never intended.

The intention of "unbuffed state" can also be seen in the Polymorph spell, in the line "the new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types...", because otherwise an Outsider that polymorphs into a human wouldn't be able to Polymorph back into itself (because its current type will be Humanoid, and Outsider isn't one of the normally valid target types for Polymorph).

[Lightlawbliss]

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) looks at your base unbuffed creature type when determining time limits. In the line, "the duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state", the original state means unbuffed state, not the state immediately before casting the spell. That means no casting Polymorph Any Object twice in a row to get a permanent duration, which was obviously never intended.

The intention of "unbuffed state" can also be seen in the Polymorph spell, in the line "the new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types...", because otherwise an Outsider that polymorphs into a human wouldn't be able to Polymorph back into itself (because its current type will be Humanoid, and Outsider isn't one of the normally valid target types for Polymorph).
good reasoning, bad example. An outside that wanted back to his normal form can just wait out the polymorph or dispell the polymorph.

[Vaz]

The double PaO works because Polymorph reads:



Which means that you get an +5 on your duration factor to PaO it again into the same thing. Given that you're changing it to something of the same class, size, and intelligence, it's auto-permanent.

If there's a reason that multiple transmutations don't stack, I don't know it.


Spell stacking rules disagree.

[Emperor Tippy]

Spell stacking rules disagree.

No, they don't.

The spell stacking rules state that the old spell is overwritten with the newer castings duration and other variable effects. The second PAO overwrites the first PAO after it has already been adjudicated for duration. It doesn't remove the first PAO and then do the adjudication for the second PAO.

[WebTiefling]

The character is definitely a Good character, so killing or otherwise taking over an existing dragon's body just for this purpose is out.

CL buffing won't help since none of the Polymorph chains are affected by CL as far as the cap on HD goes.

He's in the middle of a major spat with Tiamat, so he can't just jaunt over to a time-adjusted plane or do some other form of sleeping to "naturally" age into a Great Wyrm.

He'll be getting to 18th level pretty soon, and we can probably wait for then to get him access to the wonderful world of Wish-empowered spells. I'll have to combine it with some side quests of awesomeness to make it worthwhile to him, but the base mechanic will be some form of Draconic Polymorph plus a ton of Wish spells.

Where is the RAW rationale for Wish being combined with other spells to improve them?

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Where is the RAW rationale for Wish being combined with other spells to improve them?

Wish is one of those spells with a big "Whatever the DM will allow" stamps on it.

[WebTiefling]

Wish is one of those spells with a big "Whatever the DM will allow" stamps on it.

LOL. I don't normally run games this high, but he's been running this character through three separate campaigns, this last one just with him and me, and I'm trying to pick up the higher level play capabilities.

Maybe something like a Wish for each age category he needs to gain above the 25 HD he'll get from Draconic Polymorph, combined with DM-generated secret sauce needing to be researched and quested.

His desired end game is a draconic quasi-deity, and he's been butting heads with Tiamat's servants for long enough that I'm more than happy to oblige him. I'd make him run the Dragon Ascendant levels except that I have no clue how to run an effective Epic-level campaign. I'm getting stretched pretty hard just running a campaign with 8th and 9th level spells being available.

[ryu]

A workable solution indeed. If you let this thread keep going you could also learn how to accomplish similar from increasingly low levels with hilarious optimization shenanigans.

[Rubik]

Have him purchase the services of a psion with the Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum in order to have the psion create a soul crystal of the Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) power.

Have him Polymorph into a wyrmling, followed by several Bestow Curses to age himself one age category each, until he reaches great wyrm status. Then have him use the soul crystal and then kill himself. When he comes back, he'll permanently reside in the form he had when he manifested Astral Seed. That is, a great wyrm black dragon.

If he wanted even more fun, he could pay the psion to create a soul crystal of Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm), then use Gate to bring in, say, a prismatic dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm), command it to drop all of its defenses, then use Fusion on it, followed by the Bestow Curse and Astral Seed shenanigans above.

Incidentally, he can do this the moment he gets enough WBL to purchase spellcasting for scrolls and whatnot, meaning somewhere around level 9. Possibly earlier.

[WebTiefling]

A workable solution indeed. If you let this thread keep going you could also learn how to accomplish similar from increasingly low levels with hilarious optimization shenanigans.

That sounds good to me! How low a level can we get a person transformed into a 37 HD Great Wyrm Black Dragon?

[Rubik]

That sounds good to me! How low a level can we get a person transformed into a 37 HD Great Wyrm Black Dragon?[See Previous Post]

[ryu]

Level one if that abusive pun pun is allowed to exist.

[WebTiefling]

Have him Polymorph into a wyrmling, followed by several Bestow Curses to age himself one age category each, until he reaches great wyrm status. Then have him use the soul crystal and then kill himself. When he comes back, he'll permanently reside in the form he had when he manifested Astral Seed. That is, a great wyrm black dragon.

Incidentally, he can do this the moment he gets enough WBL to purchase spellcasting for scrolls and whatnot, meaning somewhere around level 9. Possibly earlier.

That gives me the idea of the Polymorph Any Object + Polymorph Any Object to make it permanent.

Make him a permanent Black Dragon of whatever HD, but then start Bestow Curses on him to age him 5 years at a time until he becomes a Great Wyrm. (I would consider aging someone 5 years to be roughly equivalent of the other effects listed for Bestow Curse. YMMV.)

6000 for two scrolls of PaO. 230 castings of Bestow Curse to age him 1150 years from Juvenile up to Great Wyrm might want to buy a Wondrous Item for 27000 gp or spend several months casting all of those yourself.

[WebTiefling]

Level one if that abusive pun pun is allowed to exist.

Yeah, but Pun-Pun is special.

Maybe something short of Pun-Pun's level of abuse and shenanigans. :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

Which means that you get an +5 on your duration factor to PaO it again into the same thing. Given that you're changing it to something of the same class, size, and intelligence, it's auto-permanent.

If there's a reason that multiple transmutations don't stack, I don't know it.

I have to agree with this one. I remember a similar trick some years ago involving multiple PAOs to convert a cat familiar into a proper dragon. But here, I think you might be able to do it with just one, as it's written. He's already a half-dragon, so he's got the right subtype. Then go down the list.

Same kingdom? Well, they're both animals. +5. Same class? Well, they've both got the dragon subtype. That counts, right? +2 right there. Same size? Probably not, but that's easily solved with spells, isn't it? Size him up, and you've got another +2, that already puts you at +9, which is permanent. If you wanted to be really thorough, you could spell up his Intelligence as well, give yourself another +2. All that, and you really only need one PAO.

That said, having not used PAO in ever, I have no idea how effective this is.

[Rubik]

That gives me the idea of the Polymorph Any Object + Polymorph Any Object to make it permanent.

Make him a permanent Black Dragon of whatever HD, but then start Bestow Curses on him to age him 5 years at a time until he becomes a Great Wyrm. (I would consider aging someone 5 years to be roughly equivalent of the other effects listed for Bestow Curse. YMMV.)

6000 for two scrolls of PaO. 230 castings of Bestow Curse to age him 1150 years from Juvenile up to Great Wyrm might want to buy a Wondrous Item for 27000 gp or spend several months casting all of those yourself.The uses of Bestow Curse have had multiple expansions in various sourcebooks. IIRC, the Book of Vile Darkness adds "increase age category by one" to the list. For most creatures, it gives you physical penalties, but with dragons it actually makes them larger and more powerful. You shouldn't need nearly as many castings, since it's not "add five years," but "increase age category by one." Abusive, but it should work.

[NM020110]

Savage Species has rules for changing races. The pertinent rituals start on page 149.

Using these rituals, it is possible to become a different race. Trading in the half-dragon template and five levels of sorcerer, your son can become a wyrmling black dragon in every respect (nothing to dispel, you get the ability adjustments, etc.).

Before doing this ritual, go ahead and make a fast-time demiplane. Once the ritual is finished, head there and age to Great Wyrm.

Have fun playing a Great Wyrm Black Dragon, be sure to argue that the racial spellcasting stacks with your sorcerer levels.

Edit: Bestow curse aging could also work, but that can be reversed with a Wish or Miracle. (Or, with the normal version, remove curse.)

[Chronos]

Polymorph gives you the new form's type and subtype, but it never says it gives you the new form's kingdom or class. Note that class is orthogonal to type or subtype: A housecat familiar has the same type and subtype as a snake familiar (both are Magical Beast [Augmented Animal]), but a different type and subtype from an ordinary commoner-killing housecat (which is an Animal with no subtypes).

[WebTiefling]

The uses of Bestow Curse have had multiple expansions in various sourcebooks. IIRC, the Book of Vile Darkness adds "increase age category by one" to the list. For most creatures, it gives you physical penalties, but with dragons it actually makes them larger and more powerful. You shouldn't need nearly as many castings, since it's not "add five years," but "increase age category by one." Abusive, but it should work.

Wow! That's pretty nasty, but I guess I can see that. Dropping three or four abilities by six is worse than just aging a human to 100 years old.

So, for less than 7000 gp, a human can become a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.

That's pretty stinking broken, and a heck of a lot simpler than Pun-Pun.

[Rubik]

Wow! That's pretty nasty, but I guess I can see that. Dropping three or four abilities by six is worse than just aging a human to 100 years old.

So, for less than 7000 gp, a human can become a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.

That's pretty stinking broken, and a heck of a lot simpler than Pun-Pun.It's also dispellable. Use that trick followed by Astral Seed. Then it won't be.

[WebTiefling]

Polymorph gives you the new form's type and subtype, but it never says it gives you the new form's kingdom or class. Note that class is orthogonal to type or subtype: A housecat familiar has the same type and subtype as a snake familiar (both are Magical Beast [Augmented Animal]), but a different type and subtype from an ordinary commoner-killing housecat (which is an Animal with no subtypes).

I don't think "kingdom" and "class" are defined in D&D world. The words mean what they mean in the real world (or closest analogue) and are an aid to us in figuring out the rules, not a new set of classifications for things in D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

That would be what is known as a houserule.

PAO does its duration adjudication based upon the form of the target at the time of casting. That said form will only last, say, 10 minutes is irrelevant.

PAO into a dragon and then PAO into a dragon again and you are only under the effects of one PAO (as the first is overwritten when the second PAO is cast) but that second PAO has a permanent duration.
Sort of. Polymorph Any Object specifies "original state". If "original state" refers to 'before this specific casting of Polymorph Any Object', then yes, you're correct. If "original state" goes back a bit farther, and looks at the nonmagical state of the affected critter, then you're not correct.

Trouble is, either one can be inferred by a reasonable person. So at some tables, yes, the PoA twice works. At others, not so much. Both tables will quite possibly say they're playing it RAW. Neither is going to be precisely wrong, as the distinction is hiding under a fine point of the use of language... which varies by region and is constantly in (usually slow) flux.

There's comperable problems with the Astral Seed trick, but I don't feel like getting into it for now.

[Shazek]

CL buffing won't help since none of the Polymorph chains are affected by CL as far as the cap on HD goes.


Ah, that's where Reserves of Strength comes in. It lets you break the CL caps on anything for spells, letting you Shapechange into whatever you can hit the CL for. By RAW, it removes them entirely. Many use it as only for the +3 from the feat, though.

[Rubik]

There're comparable problems with the Astral Seed trickAfraid not.


To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the tenth day ends, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested, at one level lower, but you have none of your equipment.The power says specifically that your new body is an exact duplicate of your body when you manifested Astral Seed, and you retain all the abilities you had at that time. No wiggle-room within RAW to make the trick not work. None whatsoever.

[WebTiefling]

Savage Species has rules for changing races. The pertinent rituals start on page 149.
....
Have fun playing a Great Wyrm Black Dragon, be sure to argue that the racial spellcasting stacks with your sorcerer levels.

Took a look there and saw some info about using Wish to transform race. What they suggested was pretty darned easy, especially for my son who's going to be 18th level probably on our next session.


Wish
A spellcaster casts wish and transforms the character.
...
Casting wish to become a new kind of creature, with full
access to all extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities
(see End Result, below), while retaining Intelligence,
memory, and personality, falls under the "wishing for
greater effects" rules in the spell description. ...
The DM may, for instance, require the spellcaster to make
a Spellcraft check. For every point by which the check result
exceeds 20, the transforming character gains a 5% chance to
have the goal creature's abilities. The transforming character
must roll for each ability.

For a high level caster, gaining a +40 to one's Spellcraft check isn't too hard. He already has a +27, and he hasn't gotten any items that help him any.

Off the top of my head, he can do research in a Master level library for Spellcraft (+6) and then get an item of +6 Spellcraft for only 3600 gp. That adds up to +39, so even rolling a 1 on the Spellcraft check gets him a 100% chance of gaining all the special abilities.

[WebTiefling]

On the other hand, nothing in the Wish description mentions anything about what HD of the creature you turn into. I, as the DM, would rule that it would be as your current hit dice if it weren't for the Draconic Polymorph that grants up to 25 HD. That would push me to make it transform into a potentially higher HD total, except that Draconic Polymorph is undo-able while the Wish transform isn't.

Any suggestions for reasonable HD rules for the Wish transformation listed in Savage Species pg 149?

[WebTiefling]

Ah, that's where Reserves of Strength comes in. It lets you break the CL caps on anything for spells, letting you Shapechange into whatever you can hit the CL for. By RAW, it removes them entirely. Many use it as only for the +3 from the feat, though.

Hmmm, I think I would go with the +3 limit on it. It specifically states that you can increase your CL by 1, 2, or 3. I agree that you could then crank the HD up by 3, but that's still not getting up to Great Wyrm range.

[Shazek]

It all comes down to whether or not "with this Feat" is determined to be referring to the Caster Levels gained from the feat or if it just means that you can exceed the limits when you're using the feat. The example is, unfortunately, ambiguous. English can be nonspecific like that sometimes.

[Jack_Simth]

Afraid not.

The power says specifically that your new body is an exact duplicate of your body when you manifested Astral Seed, and you retain all the abilities you had at that time. No wiggle-room within RAW to make the trick not work. None whatsoever.
Sure there is. In what sense is 'the remaining duration on effect X' not part of "the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested"? You Shapechange at caster level 17, turn into a dragon and UPD a crystal of Astral Seed when you have 150 minutes left on the Shapechange clock, suicide, rebuild your body, and when you're done rebuilding your body, you've got 150 (or maybe 140, due to the one level lower clause) minutes left on your Shapechange clock. A short while after you finish rebuilding your body (as a Dragon), the Shapechange expires and you turn back into whatever you were before the Shapechange. All specific statements in Astral Seed satisfied (in one sense, more rigorously, even), cheese averted.

[Deophaun]

The uses of Bestow Curse have had multiple expansions in various sourcebooks. IIRC, the Book of Vile Darkness adds "increase age category by one" to the list. For most creatures, it gives you physical penalties, but with dragons it actually makes them larger and more powerful. You shouldn't need nearly as many castings, since it's not "add five years," but "increase age category by one." Abusive, but it should work.
It's a common misconception that dragons automatically get more powerful just by hitting their birthday. But, it doesn't actually work like that:

As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs, the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment it gains from aging. The character must add this dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new age category until it attains this level.
When you age a dragon through bestow curse, you're actually forcing that dragon to take a lot of dragon levels before it can take a class level again.

[WebTiefling]

It's a common misconception that dragons automatically get more powerful just by hitting their birthday. But, it doesn't actually work like that:


As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs, the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment it gains from aging. The character must add this dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new age category until it attains this level.

When you age a dragon through bestow curse, you're actually forcing that dragon to take a lot of dragon levels before it can take a class level again.

Wow. I'm seriously impressed! Excellent recall of a pretty important part of dragons.

Looks like it's the Savage Species Wish transformation for good ol' Sajak the half Black Dragon Sorcerer. I'll toss in some costly/difficult additional requirements to have the Wish jump him up to a Great Wyrm dragon. Draconic Polymorph gives 25 HD, so Wish might give another 5. (homebrew, I know)

He'll need to find some special materials and pay a buttload of gp and XP to grant the last 7 HD. Probably another Wish's worth of XP and some physical bits of a Black Great Wyrm to be Spellcrafted into something costing 50K gp.

Any other ideas?

[Rubik]

Sure there is. In what sense is 'the remaining duration on effect X' not part of "the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested"? You Shapechange at caster level 17, turn into a dragon and UPD a crystal of Astral Seed when you have 150 minutes left on the Shapechange clock, suicide, rebuild your body, and when you're done rebuilding your body, you've got 150 (or maybe 140, due to the one level lower clause) minutes left on your Shapechange clock. A short while after you finish rebuilding your body (as a Dragon), the Shapechange expires and you turn back into whatever you were before the Shapechange. All specific statements in Astral Seed satisfied (in one sense, more rigorously, even), cheese averted.It says your body is identical. It doesn't even vaguely imply that spell or power effects remain in effect.