Saph Watches Avatar: The Last Airbender

[Saph]

The Great Avatar Watchthrough

The Backstory

So, a week or so ago, a forum member started up a thead titled Sell Me On Avatar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302501). Lots of people chimed in with their opinions on the show, nearly all of them positive. I eventually joined in and was one of (I think) only two people who didn't like the show – I watched the first two episodes and stopped for a variety of reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16008052#post16008052).

About fifteen people chimed in promising that It Gets Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItGetsBetter).

Now, I'm usually a bit dubious when people tell me this. It's not that I don't trust them, it's just that, well, every show has fans, and they'll all quite sincerely tell you the same thing. Just because one person loves a show doesn't mean that the next person will.

However, in this case, a bunch of the people making the recommendation (including The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16008744#post16008744)) were ones I know and like. So I've decided to put my past prejudices aside and give Avatar another shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16008917#post16008917).

Since this kind of thing's much more fun with company, you're invited to join in. :smallbiggrin:

The Mission

These are the episodes of the series Avatar. This board-member's one-season mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new— wait, wrong script.

I'm going to watch at least one full season of Avatar: The Legend of Aang. The goals are (a) see how it compares to my past impression on the rewatch, (b) hopefully find a new series I like, and (c) learn something. I'm a professional fantasy writer, so this kind of stuff is actually pretty close to work research for me.

The Rules

I will watch at least the first season (Book of Water) episode by episode, and post my thoughts on each. Going on the promise that it gets better, I'm not going to quit partway though unless it gets REALLY terrible.

I may skip individual episodes if enough people recommend me to in the comments. (I'm going to trust that most of the guys reading this are going to be Avatar fans and will know what they're talking about.)

At the end of Season 1, I'll go back and check the ratings to see whether they really have gone up, and if not, how they're looking. If they're batting at least a C average I'll keep going into Season 2. If not I might keep going anyway if something's caught my interest.

Will try to put up one episode a day, but no promises.

Ratings

Here are what my ratings mean, just to give you an idea of where I'm going with each. Note that these are pretty subjective, so don't get too angry because I've rated your favourite series lower than you think it should be – this is my honest assessment of how much I've enjoyed them.

A: Excellent. Really, really good. Anything fascinating, really well-done, or hilariously funny. Doesn’t have to be perfect, but has to be compelling. Anything with an A rating is something I’ll be recommending to other people, and I’ll watch/read every bit of it. Series or parts of series that rate an A for me: Babylon 5 (seasons 2-4), good Order of the Stick arcs, most of the arcs of Worm, Fate/Stay Night, Breaking Bad. Not much makes it up here.

B: Good. Anything that I enjoyed. Might recommend it to other people if it matches their tastes. Will read/watch more of it when I can, until over time I’ve seen most of it, if not all. Examples: Babylon 5 (seasons 1 and 5), Deep Space Nine, most of Joss Whedon’s stuff, average Order of the Stick arcs, the Wheel of Time (books 1-6 or so), Full Metal Alchemist, Full Metal Panic, The Guild, The Walking Dead.

C: Okay. Anything that’s interesting enough to hold my attention. It’s probably not great, but it does enough things right that I’m not going to regret spending my time on it. Might alternate between good stuff and boring stuff, but the good makes the boring worth it. I might or might not watch/read the whole thing, depending how much spare time I have and whether my friends are into it. Examples: Star Trek TNG, Voyager, the Honor Harrington series, Wheel of Time (books 7+), first couple of seasons of the Battlestar Galactica reboot, Bleach up to a point, Once Upon A Time, Sluggy Freelance.

D: Poor. Some good stuff, but not much. Some combination of clumsy writing, annoying characters, slow pace, or just plain boring. I’ll try it briefly, then give up if it doesn’t improve (grace period depends on how patient/forgiving I’m feeling). Examples: Dark Angel, most Marvel/DC comics, the Twilight books (obviously I’m not the target audience), Big Bang Theory, Star Trek Enterprise, those endless trilogies written by David Eddings, most of Dominic Deegan.

E: Awful. This is past ‘bad’ and into ‘I want those hours of my life back’. Watching or reading this actively makes me feel worse, usually by making me frustrated, depressed, or bored out of my mind. No full series in this category, since if it’s that horrific there’s no way in hell I’m going to watch the whole thing. Closest examples I can think of from media that was otherwise good enough to stick with are those stupid DS9 Ferengi episodes and anything with Wesley Crusher. Ctrl-Alt-Delete probably would go here, if I could ever motivate myself to read enough strips in a row before getting bored and doing something else. If Avatar drops to this level for more than one episode in a row then I quit.

(Yes, these are copied from the ratings I use for my handbooks. Force of habit.)

The Episodes

Episode 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16029261#post16029261)
Episode 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16029919#post16029919)
Episode 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16032426#post16032426)
Episode 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16039044#post16039044)
Episode 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16046212#post16046212)
Episode 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16053581#post16053581)
Episode 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16060870#post16060870)
Episode 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16067648#post16067648)
Episode 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16073086#post16073086)
Episode 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16079258#post16079258)
Halfway House (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16087292#post16087292)
Episode 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16093633#post16093633)
Episode 12 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16100961#post16100961)
Episode 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16107928#post16107928)
Episode 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16114703#post16114703)
Episode 15 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16121378#post16121378)
Episode 16 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16125940#post16125940)
Episode 17 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16133010#post16133010)
Episode 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16139731#post16139731)
Episode 19 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16146608#post16146608)
Episode 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16152963#post16152963)
Season Overview (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16159295#post16159295)
Finishing Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16166498#post16166498)

Next Season

On to Season 2! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16273207#post16273207)

[Saph]

Episode 1: The Boy in the Iceberg

http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/2/25/Aang_in_the_iceberg.png

Watchthrough Thoughts

Damn this series is pretty. Forgot how nice the visuals are. Ice looks lovely, animation is crisp and clean.
Also forgot how annoying Sokka is. He does nothing except whine and carp non-stop.
Apa is introduced, Sokka is annoying again, gets punished by being mucussed. I get the feeling this is going to be a recurring theme.
Brief into to group dynamics. Aang is exposition, Katara is wide-eyed enjoyment, Sokka is the Grinch. Already I’m wondering why Sokka is even in the group.
More exposition, introducing Zuko this time.
It feels a lot like they’re setting up Katara and Aang as a romantic pair.
Sokka’s being the Grinch again, claiming Aang can’t fly. How does he manage to be wrong about EVERYTHING? That’s like some special talent.
Firebending training. Zuko and Iroh are fun!
Episode ends on a cliffhanger. Conflict incoming!
Rating

C-

Not terrible for a first episode, but feels very kiddy-cartoony. Aang and Katara seem to be being shipped heavily right from the start – a bit too heavily. Not much so far to make me want to keep watching, except for the beautiful visuals.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Aang/Katara romance was the worst part of the show, no question. Sokka quickly gets better. Iroh is indeed bestest character, only Bumi and Toph can compete.

[Cen]

This thread is going to be great, I'm so happy you're giving it a try.
But if you'll quit before book 2, you'll miss the very best character created in any media.

[ThePhantom]

Hmm, reminds me of someone else you decided to watch a episode a day and talk about it. That was fun.

Anyways, the first episode, set up for the world, and character introduction. All I can really say is things will get better, and details will come back latter.

[Grey Watcher]

Aang/Katara romance was the worst part of the show, no question. Sokka quickly gets better. Iroh is indeed bestest character, only Bumi and Toph can compete.

The Aang/Katara thing is a bit weird. When the show wants to hit you with it, tends to be pretty blatant (Aang looking at Katara through sparkly soft-focus, for example), but then it will go on for a fair few episodes without it coming up at all. Personally, I think it's done well, but then I'm a total fanboy for this show anyway.

I want to make other comments, but I don't want to spoil stuff knowing that you're going to watch.

It's hard to choose episodes to outright skip, because the show does a suprisingly good job of scattering around plot points and character introductions that will become important later on. Part of me says not to skip any: if you're going to make a fair judgement of this show, you may as well see it, warts and all. The other part of me wants to steer you to the stuff you're most likely to enjoy. So, in the spirit of the latter:

The Great Divide (Episode 11): Easily the most skippable, and widely regarded as the series' weakest link. If your early concerns are that the series feels too kid-oriented/patronizing, this will not help.

The King of Omashu (Episode 5): Does have some impact on the larger plot in the long run, but in the short run, it runs perhaps the most into wacky kids show silliness which, based on your dislike of, say, the Ferengi-centric episodes from DS9, you'll probably hate. It does introduce some things (most notably a character who becomes somewhat prominent much later), so bear that in mind if you're making the decision to skip over this one.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

*hops into a seat*

I brought popcorn!

No, seriously. I'm excited to see this unfold. :smallsmile:

[Saph]

Grey: thanks for the advice. Will see how the episodes go!

[John Cribati]

Meh. The Aang/Katara relationship isn't as prominent as some fans (and even the creators) make it out to be.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This talk about the romance reminds me: you can probably skip the episode about the fortune teller. There may be something important I'm forgetting, but it's basically about Aang/Katara.

[Morty]

Eh, I honestly would not recommend to skip any episodes at all. Saph should just watch them all in order and form judgements based on what she sees.

[Mx.Silver]

Good luck to you there. I've never really cared for the series myself, to be perfectly honest (hence why I stayed out of the 'sell me on Avatar' thread), and I've probably seen most of the episodes (on account of my kid sister, who's obsessed with it). It does actually credit its audience with some intelligence and the ability to handle some complexity, which I respect but it is still primarily aimed at a young audience and the childishness does kind of detract from things at times, especially in the less/non story focussed episodes (of which there are quite a lot, especially in series 1).

From personal experience, if the first few episodes haven't really swayed you to more than 'good for a kids show' then you're probably not going to find yourself converted. Still, that may just be me.


Also, I'll throw my voice in with the 'don't skip episodes' crowd. If you're going to judge the show fairly then you should be taking on its own merits, which means taking the bad with the good.

[Mutant Sheep]

Eh, I honestly would not recommend to skip any episodes at all. Saph should just watch them all in order and form judgements based on what she sees.This. Don't skip, you'll be doing yourself a disservice.

Doing one a day is a fast pace, goodness. I won't say slow down, because if it was plausible I'd be telling you to watch a season a day, but the characters grow on you and they sometimes like having time to do that.

So many people are doing entire show Watches of this now. I wanna do a couple weeks of Avatar watching too!:smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

Eh, I honestly would not recommend to skip any episodes at all. Saph should just watch them all in order and form judgements based on what she sees.


Good luck to you there. I've never really cared for the series myself, to be perfectly honest (hence why I stayed out of the 'sell me on Avatar' thread), and I've probably seen most of the episodes (on account of my kid sister, who's obsessed with it). It does actually credit its audience with some intelligence and the ability to handle some complexity, which I respect but it is still primarily aimed at a young audience and the childishness does kind of detract from things at times, especially in the less/non story focussed episodes (of which there are quite a lot, especially in series 1).

From personal experience, if the first few episodes haven't really swayed you to more than 'good for a kids show' then you're probably not going to find yourself converted. Still, that may just be me.


Also, I'll throw my voice in with the 'don't skip episodes' crowd. If you're going to judge the show fairly then you should be taking on its own merits, which means taking the bad with the good.


This. Don't skip, you'll be doing yourself a disservice.

Doing one a day is a fast pace, goodness. I won't say slow down, because if it was plausible I'd be telling you to watch a season a day, but the characters grow on you and they sometimes like having time to do that.

So many people are doing entire show Watches of this now. I wanna do a couple weeks of Avatar watching too!:smalltongue:

Yeah, you're right. I really should've kept my mouth shut. :smalltongue:

Also, if you think one a day is fast paced, when I first got turned on to this series I watched the whole thing in a week.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Doing one a day is a fast pace, goodness.

I do marathon sessions whenever I start getting into a show that already has archives. I watched Kim Possible in like, two days (I'm a teenager and it was summer), then I rewatched it for like, two weeks. Thank you Disney and ShareTV for having most of the episodes between your sites!

Then there's RWBY, which I've been with from the start. Having a week-long gap between episodes leads to me doing an incredible amount of analysis on everything.

[Saph]

Episode 2: The Avatar Returns

http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/6/6b/Avatar_Aang_waterbends.png

Sokka wastes no time in getting back to being the Grinch of our trio. For a moment he’s in danger of making sense (blaming Aang for the flare) but this is quickly remedied.
“Aang, don’t go, I love you!”
Our first-episode villian, Zuko, makes his entrance, complete with Darth Vader helmet.
Sokka gears up for a fight! Is he finally going to make up for his previous uselessness?
Nope! He’s dispatched in one move. Aside: Zuko really knows how to make an entrance.
Sokka vs Zuko, Round 2. Second verse, same as the first.
Aang arrives! Zuko announces that he’s spent his whole life training for this. Poor Zuko. You just know what the outcome’s going to be, don’t you?
Sokka agrees to go after Aang with Katara, triumphant music plays.
Parting farewells. Grandma’s message to Katara is that she’s “brought hope back to the tribe”. Her parting words for Sokka . . . “be nice to your sister”. It’s sadly hilarious that her highest ambition for Sokka is for him to “be nice”, but we’ve seen nothing to make us believe that she’s being unrealistic.
The Fire Nation benders look kinda silly in their skull helmets.
Aang vs Zuko, Round 2! Much more interesting fight so far. The martial arts choreography is amazing for a kid’s cartoon.
Aang vs Zuko, Round 3. The more the fight progresses, the more it seems that Zuko isn’t actually THAT good. He’s fast and technically competent, but all he seems to know how to do is make direct attacks. Aang seems more skilled, but since Aang isn’t doing any attacks of his own, he’s eventually blasted into the water.
Aang is evolving! Aang evolved into Avataang! Avataang uses LolHax! It’s super effective!
Zuko is trounced, beginning what I suspect will be a long string of failures on his part to catch Team Avatar. Wonder how they’ll try to keep him a threat? Iroh is the sensible one, pointing out that the Fire Nation’s great threat is just a kid (though given that he apparently slept through the whole fight one wonders what his priorities are).
Season 1 quest is revealed. Get to the North Pole, learn Waterbending.
Aang’s motivation: learn Waterbending with Katara. Katara’s motivation: learn Waterbending with Aang. Sokka’s motivation: “knock some Firebender heads along the way”. Wince.
Last line: “but before we do that, we’re taking a bunch of detours to ride animals”. Glad there’s no sense of urgency or anything.
Episode concludes, the main trio riding Apa into the sunset.
Rating

D

I’m remembering now why I never got past this episode the first time. The episode’s pretty and flashy and I love the visuals and choreography, but the story and characters are weak. Team Avatar’s victory feels cheap, achieved only by the overwhelming power of the Avatar State, and the characters aren’t pulling me in. Worst of all is the wrap line. I think it’s supposed to be lighthearted, but as a veteran of many a multi-season anime it fills me with dread. “And our overarching plot will be right back as soon as we finish this filler break. A long break. As in most of the season.”

Thoughts, Then and Now

It’s interesting reading my old thoughts on Episodes 1 and 2 (based on having watched them 5+ years ago) and re-watching it now. Same conclusion, very different reasoning.

I remembered hating Sokka’s character because of the dynamic with him and his sister. Rewatching it, I don’t feel that at all. I don’t hate him because of anything gender-related – it’s because he’s UNBELIEVABLY ANNOYING. It’s as though they had a list of negative qualities and went out of their way to hit every one. Drag on the story? Check. Grabs the spotlight with stuff we don’t care about? Check. Opinionated? Check. Loudly and obnoxiously wrong? Check. Incompetent at everything? Double check. He’s the sort of lame obstacle character that most series would use for one episode, but instead he’s a protagonist. The creators seem to try to make up for this by making him the comic-relief, but this actually makes things worse – he’s so pathetic you don’t feel any satisfaction from seeing him humiliated. He makes Wesley Crusher look likeable. At least we got to see Wesley getting stabbed.

In a lot of ways it feels as though the writers didn’t really know what to do with Sokka. Aang is the boy hero, growing into his power. Katara is his guide and complement, smart and powerful and beautiful. Sokka is just . . . there, the muggle in a group of spellcasters. You could knock him out of both episodes with minimal changes, and it would practically double the speed of the story. Katara and Aang don’t have a strong enough relationship to make up for it, and the result is a fairly uninteresting dynamic. The trio aren’t fun to watch or listen to.

Getting away from the characters, it feels as though the writers can’t really make up their minds whether this is supposed to be a goofy show or a serious one. It feels as though they want the Fire Nation to be a menacing threat, but the Fire Nation soldiers are clownish and inept. Characters throw fire and ice in moves that should inflict horrific injuries, but a strike from a fire blast does no more damage than a hard shove – no-one so much as bleeds. Katara flash-freezes three adult soldiers, and it’s played for laughs. Sokka’s great motivation is to “knock some heads”, which is painfully immersion-breaking for someone who’s supposed to be going into a life-or-death conflict. It feels like a childrens’ game.

If I was watching the series cold I’d probably quit at this point – there’s nothing I’m looking forward to seeing in Episode 3. Hopefully things will improve.

[Cen]

Also, if you think one a day is fast paced, when I first got turned on to this series I watched the whole thing in a week.

This. So much this.
At first it seems 1 episode a day is fast, but Avatar is one of these shows where you just have to see more because you can't get enough of these characters. I've seen all of season 3 in one night.

Spah, you're a very pessimistic person, aren't you?

[Grey Watcher]

“Aang, don’t go, I love you!”


I don't know why, but the fact that Aang does not use the little girl's name in reply always reads as painfully awkward to me. "I'll miss you, too, unnamed little girl. I'll miss you, too."



Our first-episode villian, Zuko, makes his entrance, complete with Darth Vader helmet.
Sokka gears up for a fight! Is he finally going to make up for his previous uselessness?
Nope! He’s dispatched in one move. Aside: Zuko really knows how to make an entrance.
Sokka vs Zuko, Round 2. Second verse, same as the first.

At least give the a kid point for the boomerang?

In all seriousness, it might read as just comic ineptitude, and maybe it is to some extent, but I once the series gets a chance to do a little world building, it makes more sense.

Zuko is, after all, a member of the royal family of a highly militaristic nation. Makes sense that he'd be at least competent in a fight. Sokka is the oldest child left behind when the Tribe's actual warriors sailed off to war. It's a kid with a toy sword trying to take down a soldier, of course he got a face full of pwnage. That it's played for laughs? Yeah that's a matter of taste.


Aang’s motivation: learn Waterbending with Katara. Katara’s motivation: learn Waterbending with Aang. Sokka’s motivation: “knock some Firebender heads along the way”. Wince.
Last line: “but before we do that, we’re taking a bunch of detours to ride animals”. Glad there’s no sense of urgency or anything.

Let's just say the series will inform Aang why this is a bad idea.


I’m remembering now why I never got past this episode the first time. The episode’s pretty and flashy and I love the visuals and choreography, but the story and characters are weak. Team Avatar’s victory feels cheap, achieved only by the overwhelming power of the Avatar State, and the characters aren’t pulling me in. Worst of all is the wrap line. I think it’s supposed to be lighthearted, but as a veteran of many a multi-season anime it fills me with dread. “And our overarching plot will be right back as soon as we finish this filler break. A long break. As in most of the season.”

Thoughts, Then and Now

It’s interesting reading my old thoughts on Episodes 1 and 2 (based on having watched them 5+ years ago) and re-watching it now. Same conclusion, very different reasoning.

I remembered hating Sokka’s character because of the dynamic with him and his sister. Rewatching it, I don’t feel that at all. I don’t hate him because of anything gender-related – it’s because he’s UNBELIEVABLY ANNOYING. It’s as though they had a list of negative qualities and went out of their way to hit every one. Drag on the story? Check. Grabs the spotlight with stuff we don’t care about? Check. Opinionated? Check. Loudly and obnoxiously wrong? Check. Incompetent at everything? Double check. He’s the sort of lame obstacle character that most series would use for one episode, but instead he’s a protagonist. The creators seem to try to make up for this by making him the comic-relief, but this actually makes things worse – he’s so pathetic you don’t feel any satisfaction from seeing him humiliated. He makes Wesley Crusher look likeable. At least we got to see Wesley getting stabbed.

In a lot of ways it feels as though the writers didn’t really know what to do with Sokka. Aang is the boy hero, growing into his power. Katara is his guide and complement, smart and powerful and beautiful. Sokka is just . . . there, the muggle in a group of spellcasters. You could knock him out of both episodes with minimal changes, and it would practically double the speed of the story. Katara and Aang don’t have a strong enough relationship to make up for it, and the result is a fairly uninteresting dynamic. The trio aren’t fun to watch or listen to.

Getting away from the characters, it feels as though the writers can’t really make up their minds whether this is supposed to be a goofy show or a serious one. It feels as though they want the Fire Nation to be a menacing threat, but the Fire Nation soldiers are clownish and inept. Characters throw fire and ice in moves that should inflict horrific injuries, but a strike from a fire blast does no more damage than a hard shove – no-one so much as bleeds. Katara flash-freezes three adult soldiers, and it’s played for laughs. Sokka’s great motivation is to “knock some heads”, which is painfully immersion-breaking for someone who’s supposed to be going into a life-or-death conflict. It feels like a childrens’ game.

If I was watching the series cold I’d probably quit at this point – there’s nothing I’m looking forward to seeing in Episode 3. Hopefully things will improve.

The show's tone definitely shifts towards Taking This Seriously as time goes on. I think as Burlew pointed out in the Sell Me on Avatar thread, some of the silly-kids-show vibe is due to trying to sell this to the Network Execubots who think that this sort of thing is absolutely requisite for children's shows.

As for the injuries, it's an artifact of the genre. Roy nearly got his arm chopped off by Tarquin but could continue fighting, Zuko can get hosed off the deck of his own ship and not have a bruise to show for it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The show's tone definitely shifts towards Taking This Seriously as time goes on. I think as Burlew pointed out in the Sell Me on Avatar thread, some of the silly-kids-show vibe is due to trying to sell this to the Network Execubots who think that this sort of thing is absolutely requisite for children's shows.

Ah, the network execubots. The beings that required the episode of Kim Possible known as "Grande Size Me", which was only salvaged due to the final scene where Ron talks to the kids at home about a serious issue: short-term genetic mutation.

[Mx.Silver]

Getting away from the characters, it feels as though the writers can’t really make up their minds whether this is supposed to be a goofy show or a serious one. It feels as though they want the Fire Nation to be a menacing threat, but the Fire Nation soldiers are clownish and inept.
Although they do up the intimidation a bit later on, most rank-and-file fire nation soldiers aren't much more than disposable mooks.


Characters throw fire and ice in moves that should inflict horrific injuries, but a strike from a fire blast does no more damage than a hard shove – no-one so much as bleeds. Katara flash-freezes three adult soldiers, and it’s played for laughs. Sokka’s great motivation is to “knock some heads”, which is painfully immersion-breaking for someone who’s supposed to be going into a life-or-death conflict. It feels like a childrens’ game.


This isn't really going to change much. Outside of a couple of plot-mandated incidents, fire is basically just all-kinetic, no-heat in terms of injury while frost-bite is apparently unheard of. War is bad, but doesn't seem to kill people very noticeably.
Now in fairness, a lot of kids shows pull punches in regard to injury and death, and it was made for American broadcast - where until into the last decade you'd have to fight to even get the words 'death' or 'kill' into the script. Then again, most kids shows also don't revolve around a major war.

[Saph]

The show's tone definitely shifts towards Taking This Seriously as time goes on. I think as Burlew pointed out in the Sell Me on Avatar thread, some of the silly-kids-show vibe is due to trying to sell this to the Network Execubots who think that this sort of thing is absolutely requisite for children's shows.

As for the injuries, it's an artifact of the genre. Roy nearly got his arm chopped off by Tarquin but could continue fighting, Zuko can get hosed off the deck of his own ship and not have a bruise to show for it.

That does make sense, but it's still jarring. I can't tell whether the fights are meant to feel dangerous or not.

And while I know the genre has rules, it's hard to avoid comparing it to shows like Gundam SEED, which also use a war as a backdrop but play hardball from the start. (In the first three episodes of that series, one protagonist sees both of his best friends violently killed one after the other, while the second protagonist gets his entire home blown up.)

[Cat Dungeon]

Aang/Katara romance was the worst part of the show, no question.

Well you just don't like anything do you?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well you just don't like anything do you?

Huh? What are you talking about?

I mean, it might've been the second-worst part of the show, after the filler, since it was mostly in the background, but I like lots of stuff. I acknowledge flaws.

[ThePhantom]

Well, the show is an American family show, you kinda have to keep the injuries toned down. As for the characters, this is the beginning, give them time to grow as people. They all will get better and more information about the world should hopefully make this series more enjoyable to you.

[Douglas]

Guys, guys, can we stop beating the dead horse? "It gets better" has already been hammered home enough that Saph has pre-committed to watching an entire season. That said:

It feels like a childrens’ game.
The main characters are children, what did you expect?

The primary target audience is also children, and due to that and American broadcasting standards on-screen explicit serious injuries are very rare. They do happen, but expect the vast majority of actual damage inflicted overall to be to objects.

As for the flash-freeze thing, she encased them in ice, but I'm pretty sure she didn't actually freeze them. They might get cold before being broken out, but only due to extended contact with ice, not directly being frozen.

On the subject of skipping episodes, I'm with the side that says watch them all. Even The Great Divide has some character moments, despite its irrelevance to the overall plot.

[Metahuman1]

I'd say watch all of them. But the next 2 eps are gonna make the whole "Let's take detours" thing both work better and be less cringe inducing. And the next one deals with Genocide so, that should soften it up as a kids show thing for you.

The prison episode, The Storm, and the Summer Solstice Should up the Anti some more for you and help with more of these issues your having with the show.

[Sabeki]

I believe this thread shall prove to be interesting, either for provoking rage in Avatar fans or for slowly showing the conversion of an avatar fan. Either way, I'm watching this like a hawk.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I like how this thread didn't even go one response before shipping commentary started.

Also, on the violence thing, you really have to recall the differences between Japanese and American standards of "children's" programming. Only relatively recently have American kids' shows been de facto allowed to even use the word "die". TLA is very much a show that's pushing the boundaries of what Nickelodeon will allow in several areas, including and especially the level of violence. (And then when that went over really well, you have the almost scarily violent fights that pop up in The Legend of Korra, even though any deaths are still off-camera).

Meanwhile, your typical Japanese mecha war story is not only targeted at older, more prone-to-buying-model-kits teenagers, but there are simply different cultural standards.

Also Gundam SEED is weirdly fetishy and unrealistic about violence anyway, but that's a story for another thread.

Also I do love how you can see the difference in Aang and Zuko's styles even early in the series. It's pointed out on occasion verbally and visually in almost every fight scenes that the different elements of Bending are all very different martial arts with very different philosophies behind them. I won't harp on it here since then you'll probably find the in-show explanations dull, but I always enjoyed seeing how the different types of Bending (and non-Bending arts, which get more play later) reflected in different characters, especially Aang. An expert in Eastern martial arts could probably write a thesis on it.

[Ramza00]

I believe this thread shall prove to be interesting, either for provoking rage in Avatar fans or for slowly showing the conversion of an avatar fan. Either way, I'm watching this like a hawk.

I am putting money that we will know by episode 8 or 9

[Fiery Diamond]

I would tell you it gets better, but I don't understand your issues with it. Some of the things you call out as the worst aspects that drag down the show for you are my very favorite parts of the show. Sokka is hilarious, not cringe-inducing. I can't understand how comic ineptitude could be seen as a bad thing unless it was in direct conflict with the general nature of the series, such as, say, something like the Walking Dead.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[Mx.Silver]

The main characters are children, what did you expect?

The primary target audience is also children, and due to that and American broadcasting standards on-screen explicit serious injuries are very rare.



Well, the show is an American family show, you kinda have to keep the injuries toned down..


Also, on the violence thing, you really have to recall the differences between Japanese and American standards of "children's" programming. Only relatively recently have American kids' shows been de facto allowed to even use the word "die". TLA is very much a show that's pushing the boundaries of what Nickelodeon will allow in several areas, including and especially the level of violence.

While this is all true, as I said earlier, on the other hand the show does largely revolve around a war. That really isn't a theme that lends itself well to those sorts of content restrictions, which is precisely why those pulled punches are going to come-up in discussion of the show.

[Grey Watcher]

I would tell you it gets better, but I don't understand your issues with it. Some of the things you call out as the worst aspects that drag down the show for you are my very favorite parts of the show. Sokka is hilarious, not cringe-inducing. I can't understand how comic ineptitude could be seen as a bad thing unless it was in direct conflict with the general nature of the series, such as, say, something like the Walking Dead.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I think a big part of the hang up (and Saph, feel free to correct me) is the poor Usefulness-to-Comic-Mishap ratio, which, as... (Saph, what pronouns do you prefer?) points out is pretty low this early in the series. About the only thing Sokka's been right about so far is that the flare sent up from the abandoned Fire Nation ship was very bad. The ratio does improve, but whether his baseline personality does is somewhat subjective (I think he's a much better, more grown up person later in the series, my mom still thinks he's an annoying brat even unto the very last episode).

[Ramza00]

Why should big several ton animals be able to fly? Sokka lives in a village with no magic or wonder, besides his sister and his sister is weird :smallwink:

[Nerd-o-rama]

While this is all true, as I said earlier, on the other hand the show does largely revolve around a war. That really isn't a theme that lends itself well to those sorts of content restrictions, which is precisely why those pulled punches are going to come-up in discussion of the show.

I have no idea why anyone would pitch a wuxia-flavored war story/monomyth to Nickelodeon either. I'm just really glad they did, based on the end product.

[Metahuman1]

Also I do love how you can see the difference in Aang and Zuko's styles even early in the series. It's pointed out on occasion verbally and visually in almost every fight scenes that the different elements of Bending are all very different martial arts with very different philosophies behind them. I won't harp on it here since then you'll probably find the in-show explanations dull, but I always enjoyed seeing how the different types of Bending (and non-Bending arts, which get more play later) reflected in different characters, especially Aang. An expert in Eastern martial arts could probably write a thesis on it.

If I remember correctly, Air Bending is Ba-qua, Water Bending is Tai Chi, Earth Bending is Hun Gar, and Fire Bending is Norther Shoulin in terms of what there based on, except for Toph (Whom you'll meet in season 2.) who bases her bending on Southern Praying Mantis.

All of them are wildly different forms of Chinese Kung Fu with, as was point out, different emphasis, different philosophical points and stresses, and different tactics and strategies they rely on.

[Tavar]

Gah. Completely forgot the purpose of the thread was for first watchers.


Spoilered, and removed some of what I said.
I believe the more "advanced" arts are all variations themselves.

[Grey Watcher]

I believe the more "advanced" arts are all variations themselves. IE...

Spoilers, much? :smalltongue:

[Nerd-o-rama]

I really want to know if there's a real life martial art that actually looks like season 3 spoilers.

[Tavar]

I really want to know if there's a real life martial art that actually looks like :SPOILERS:

Probably want to remove that...

And apparently there is, according to the trivia page on Tvtropes.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Probably want to remove that...

And apparently there is, according to the trivia page on Tvtropes.

Oh, it's a grappling style. I guess they just had to change where everyone was standing...

[Tavar]

Oh, it's a grappling style. I guess they just had to change where everyone was standing...

Huh? You can grapple while you stand. Hell, most grapple's start standing.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Huh? You can grapple while you stand. Hell, most grapple's start standing.

Where they are standing in relation to each other, i.e. far apart and not actually touching, because Bloodbending is effectively telekinetic grappling and I hate explaining my jokes.

[Douglas]

About Sokka, I think he has at least one great moment in episode 2, which you haven't commented on.

Katara! Are you gonna talk all day, or are you coming with me?

[Cat Dungeon]

Huh? What are you talking about?

I mean, it might've been the second-worst part of the show, after the filler, since it was mostly in the background, but I like lots of stuff. I acknowledge flaws.

Funny way of showing it. I don't like I've ever seen a post of yours that wasn't negative.

[Juntao112]

Clearly, Jade Dragon is Yahtzee.

[John Cribati]

What with this being Saph's first time going through the series and all, it's mightily unfair to make direct statements about what will happen like that. So for her sake, either be vague or use spoiler tags, please.

[Kyberwulf]

I just want to say, I think you should watch out for judging this show as an adult only type of show.

Remember this wasn't made for adults, more for young adults/ kids. So the plots and skill level of the characters aren't going to be OP yet. It makes sense for Sokka to not be the best martial artist. I would find some fault if someone who has no real combat training, or experience did best Zuko. Even if he put up a fight. Zuko was better trained and experienced.

Also, I don't think the Anng/Katara relationship is that bad. It's a kids show, about kids. If it got anymore complicated, then it wouldn't feel like kids. I would go into more detail about it, but that would be spoilers.

When you watch this, keep that in mind. Please don't grade this as a college level English paper, when the material you reading was made for kids. I think this is one of those rare examples where the creators made something that didn't talk down to kids, and thus made something that all ages can enjoy.
The most fun your going to have, is if you just let go and enjoy the ride.

[Saph]

Episode 3: The Southern Air Temple

http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/3/33/Southern_Air_Temple_outlook.png

Watchthrough Thoughts

Episode start. Aang is excited about the Air Temple, Katara is cautious, and Sokka continues to be the butt of unfunny jokes.
Evil Fire Commander of Evil grills Zuko. Yeah, it would be an idea to remember that there are more than two people on your ship, wouldn’t it?
Aang tries to find people, Katara is still cautious, Sokka complains about being hungry and gets beaten in Airball.
Sokka actually gets something right (I think for the second time?) by pointing out that Katara trying to hide the Fire Nation’s involvement isn’t a good plan.
Aang gets flashbacks.
Back to the more interesting story, Zuko being under arrest. “I underestimated him once, but it will not happen again!” Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, Zuko.
Aang finds the statues of his past lives, Katara is supportive (again), Sokka insists it can’t be true (again).
Random animal of some kind walks in, Sokka decides it’s a Firebender. Sigh.
Villain showdown! We get some good backstory on Zuko, and a duel’s arranged.
Aang finds out what happened to his master. It’s a little blurry, but I think this is the first time we’ve really seen any physical signs that people have been killed in this war.
Aang turns into Avataang and throws a fit.
Back to Zuko. I’m looking forward to seeing a good duel here.
Zuko starts off losing, then turns it around suddenly in some way that isn’t clear. Commander Evil expects Zuko to kill him for losing a sparring match . . . seriously? Zuko refuses, and turns his back on the guy. You know what’s coming next.
Iroh is awesome. He’s quickly becoming my favourite character.
Back to Aang, unfortunately. Katara talks him out of his tantrum by telling him that “Sokka and I are your family now”.
Cute Small Furry Animal Sidekick joins the team, as per the laws of Western cartoons.
Rating

C-

D for the Team Avatar parts, B for the Zuko parts. Zuko’s a bit melodramatic, but he’s genuinely interesting to watch and he has a good dynamic with Iroh. I’d been wondering how they were going to keep him threatening in the face of his failures – now we know!

Unfortunately Zuko and Iroh aren’t the protagonists, Aang/Katara/Sokka are, and they still don’t have a good set of character relationships. Sokka is still bumbling along as unfunny comic relief, Katara’s connection to Aang still feels a bit too fast, and Aang still feels a bit the generic hero. We get to see his backstory here, but it’s not enough to make him into a particularly interesting character yet. Hopefully this’ll improve as the series goes on.

[Aotrs Commander]

Unfortunately Zuko and Iroh aren’t the protagonists, Aang/Katara/Sokka are, and they still don’t have a good set of character relationships.

Eeeh... Well... While maybe not the protagonist... as such... Zuko at least gets as much screen time as the others (he even got a whole solo episode later on), so you will get to see a very great deal of him and his character arc over the series.

[Devonix]

Eeeh... Well... While maybe not the protagonist... as such... Zuko at least gets as much screen time as the others (he even got a whole solo episode later on), so you will get to see a very great deal of him and his character arc over the series.

Just let it slide he'll take it as it comes and I don't want to alter his views. Just enjoy the ride.

[DigoDragon]

Hopefully this’ll improve as the series goes on.

My opinion is that it does after the first 3-4 episodes. I think of it as the "warm-up" period that happens with any new show, where the creators are still modifying and molding the characters and plots into the final form that carries it through the season.

So when I watch something new, I try to give it until at least episode 6 before passing judgement. :smallsmile:

Also, Iroh is indeed one of my favorite characters.

[Morty]

Iroh is awesome. He’s quickly becoming my favourite character.


Entirely agreed. He's one of the best mentor-type characters I've ever seen.

[Hyena]

Oh, and here I thought I am free from my addiction, now when Doug Walker's vlogs are over.

[Ramza00]

Zuko was able to beat commander Zhao (the Evil Fire Commander of Evil) by making Zhao unsure of his footing (he almost knocked Zhao over with attacking his legs, Zhao kinda catches himself but not successfully).

By losing his footing (his root) Zhao effectiveness at firebending is reduced, for to firebend you need a strong confident stance and you do the forms with intensity. By losing his footing, he gives Zuko the time to counter attack and press his advantage.

It is ironic for at this stage of Zuko, commander Zhao (The Evil Fire Commander of Evil) is a far stronger firebender than Zuko is (you will learn why when you learn more about Zuko and Zhao), Zuko got lucky and when the opportunity presented itself he pressed the opportunity to the fullest.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

What strongly impressed me about this episode was the fact that a kids' cartoon gently (well, relatively) informed you that yes, there was an out-and-out genocide of the airbenders in the world's history.

That's heavy. I knew about it, and that moment of realization still hit me pretty heavily.

[John Cribati]

Also it wasn't just a sparring match, it was duel of honor. It had a Fancy Asian Name and everything.

[Nerd-o-rama]

As I understand it, the Agni Kai is an Honor DuelTM, not a sparring match. Historically, those were often to the death, although mortality rates went down significantly when people switched from swords to smoothbore pistols. Also I don't remember it being clear whether Zuko was supposed to kill him or THERE ARE NO SPOILERS IN BA SING SE, but either way there was no way Zuko was going to do that.

Just to make things a little clearer on the Zuko front. I won't go into too much effort to defend the Team Avatar side of the story yet, since it takes the main story longer to hit its stride than our favorite anti-villain and his mentor.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Or...Dai Li'd? This setting doesn't really have a specific ninja equivalent...

[cobaltstarfire]

Also also agni kai is not meant to be a dual to the death.


Unfortunately Zuko and Iroh aren’t the protagonists, Aang/Katara/Sokka are

They don't have to be protagonists to be an interesting and important part of the story. (Zuko is my favorite character, but he in particular would be completely pointless if he was the protagonist).


I'm fully expecting a couple more D's and C's, or even a few worse (I can think of one or two upcoming episodes that you're going to put through the wringer, because they are rather bad). I also think your expectations aren't very realistic though, based on your commentary what you want is an anime geared and paced for teenage boys. And while the pacing will pick up and the characters will grow (and things will become dire) you're not going to get a shounen anime out of Avatar.

[Grey Watcher]

What strongly impressed me about this episode was the fact that a kids' cartoon gently (well, relatively) informed you that yes, there was an out-and-out genocide of the airbenders in the world's history.

That's heavy. I knew about it, and that moment of realization still hit me pretty heavily.

I concur wholeheartedly.

Also, I thought Aang confronting the death of his beloved mentor was quite well done, and I feel like you're being awfully hard on the talking him down speech. I mean, what the heck else are you supposed to say to someone in that kind of situation, let alone someone whose superpowers are about to blow you off a cliff? I dunno, maybe I just have a more sentimental streak than some. :shrug:


As I understand it, the Agni Kai is an Honor DuelTM, not a sparring match. Historically, those were often to the death, although mortality rates went down significantly when people switched from swords to smoothbore pistols. Also I don't remember it being clear whether Zuko was supposed to kill him or give him a permanent Mark-O-Shame like some event that should still be considered a spoiler?!?.

Just to make things a little clearer on the Zuko front. I won't go into too much effort to defend the Team Avatar side of the story yet, since it takes the main story longer to hit its stride than our favorite anti-villain and his mentor.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Or...Dai Li'd? This setting doesn't really have a specific ninja equivalent...

Either Dai Li'd or Airbender'd, because those seem to be the only two groups that are "Win Initiative, Win It All!"

[Macros]

Well, that's a fun thread.

I'm kinda with Saph on one thing : during first season, I kept watching because of Zuko and Iroh. The Gaang ? Not so much. I guess they grew on me with time.

Anyway, I'm looking forward for the reviews, it's nice to have a fresh perspective on something I haven't watched in a while.

[Saph]

I concur wholeheartedly.

Also, I thought Aang confronting the death of his beloved mentor was quite well done, and I feel like you're being awfully hard on the talking him down speech. I mean, what the heck else are you supposed to say to someone in that kind of situation, let alone someone whose superpowers are about to blow you off a cliff? I dunno, maybe I just have a more sentimental streak than some. :shrug:

I guess it makes sense, but the relationships between the trio, especially Katara and Aang, just feel rushed. They're treated as family when they haven't had the chance to develop a natural relationship.

I haven't gotten any kind of 'genocide' vibe from any of the episodes so far. There's just one shot of a dead Airbender with 100 dead Firebenders. Based on what I've watched so far, then if I didn't have you guys calling it a genocide I'd be assuming the rest of the Airbenders were driven off or something.

[BWR]

[CENTER][SIZE="4"] Iroh is awesome. He’s quickly becoming my favourite character.

I think this is universal among fans.
He gets better.

[AKA_Bait]

*Aang turns into Avataang and throws a fit.


One thing that I found made the series feel much deeper to me was to keep in mind the ages of the main characters. At the beginning of the series Aang is 12. When you consider that, this scene, for example, makes much more sense to me.

Zuko, Iroh and the Fire Nation folks may also not change as your favorite part of the series. They remained mine throughout.

On the Aang & Katara love story, I too have always hated it, but it fortunately does not take up too much of the series' time. Specifically,
it drives me a little nuts that Aang is expected to be monogamous. He should be having as many children as he possibly can, whatever his feelings might be. I know this is an artifact of American TV and a rough issue for a children's show, but it would be better not to have touched the topic of romance at all than go down a road like this, in my view. He is the last member of his tribe. In a few short generations, the Avatar cycle will come back to his tribe. It's really tempting fate, and threatening the balance of the world, to have only a relatively small number of his easily identifiable great-great-grand children around, one of whom must be picked as the avatar.

[Yora]

This thread makes me realize how amazingly well written the show is overall. So many things that seem to develop over time, but Saph is able to point out the first hints and seeds for these developments right from the start.
Aang vs Zuko, Round 3. The more the fight progresses, the more it seems that Zuko isn’t actually THAT good. He’s fast and technically competent, but all he seems to know how to do is make direct attacks. Aang seems more skilled, but since Aang isn’t doing any attacks of his own, he’s eventually blasted into the water.
This is a perfect character summary for the whole first season. And the baseline on which all his future character development builds on.
This is brilliant.

Back to the more interesting story, Zuko being under arrest. “I underestimated him once, but it will not happen again!” Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, Zuko.
Iroh is awesome. He’s quickly becoming my favourite character.

I think Saphs assesment will be like mine. Aangs, Kataras, and Sokkas stroy is a really decent show. Zukos and Iros story, that's the really good show.

It always seems to me, that the creaters knew they were making a show for different audiences. The Aang story is the funny kids cartoon about defeating the villain with the silly animals and slapstick jokes. The Zuko story is the more grim and deeper story about making difficult descisions and not becomming the villain.
The Aang story does get better later on, but the Zuko story is the one that got me hooked and the one that kept me watching.

Overall, I'd say while season 1 has it's charm, it's the weakest of the three and it would be a shame to base a judgement of the whole show just on it. However, the tipping point is in the last episodes of season 1, so once you make it that far, you know what makes the show great and why one should keep watching it.

[Grey Watcher]

I guess it makes sense, but the relationships between the trio, especially Katara and Aang, just feel rushed. They're treated as family when they haven't had the chance to develop a natural relationship.

I haven't gotten any kind of 'genocide' vibe from any of the episodes so far. There's just one shot of a dead Airbender with 100 dead Firebenders. Based on what I've watched so far, then if I didn't have you guys calling it a genocide I'd be assuming the rest of the Airbenders were driven off or something.

I'm pretty sure both Zuko and Katara's grandmother mention that either no one's seen an Airbender in a hundred years or that the Avatar is known to be the last one. Plus, in the States the title is Avatar: The Last Airbender, not Avatar: The Last Publicly Known Airbender. :smalltongue: (I realize that you're watching in the UK, where the title is Avatar: The Legend of Aang, so that much is understandable.)

[The Rose Dragon]

This is a perfect character summary for the whole first season. And the baseline on which all his future character development builds on.
This is brilliant.

It's also fun to watch how different characters interpret the same style of bending, even when the difference isn't as drastic as Toph and Aang's Earthbending. In the whole Agni Kai thing in Episode 3, you can note drastic differences between how Zhao, Zuko and Iroh fight, even though they are all firebenders.

[Yora]

I'm pretty sure both Zuko and Katara's grandmother mention that either no one's seen an Airbender in a hundred years or that the Avatar is known to be the last one. Plus, in the States the title is Avatar: The Last Airbender, not Avatar: The Last Publicly Known Airbender. :smalltongue: (I realize that you're watching in the UK, where the title is Avatar: The Legend of Aang, so that much is understandable.)
The Southern Air Temple is a suprisingly grim episode compared to how the show had been until that point with all the skeletons and such. But I think the whole subject really gets treated more deeply in season two where they encounter all kinds of refugees and survivors from destroyed villages.
In the Air Temple, those were people who only Aang knew 100 years ago. In the Earth Kingdom, it's people who lost their homes and families just a few years ago.

[Douglas]

I guess it makes sense, but the relationships between the trio, especially Katara and Aang, just feel rushed. They're treated as family when they haven't had the chance to develop a natural relationship.

I haven't gotten any kind of 'genocide' vibe from any of the episodes so far. There's just one shot of a dead Airbender with 100 dead Firebenders. Based on what I've watched so far, then if I didn't have you guys calling it a genocide I'd be assuming the rest of the Airbenders were driven off or something.
"The Last Airbender" is right there in the title of the show. Genocide of all airbenders should have been a base assumption going in just from that and the opening "and then the Fire Nation attacked". Even if some airbenders were merely driven off in the initial attack, they must have been hunted down and exterminated afterwards or there would still be airbenders in the world today other than Aang.

[Saph]

"The Last Airbender" is right there in the title of the show. Genocide of all airbenders should have been a base assumption going in just from that and the opening "and then the Fire Nation attacked".

*shrug* I'm just giving you the impressions that I get from the show. Sorry if you don't like them.

[Tavar]

Yeah, I think you're selling the episode a bit short regarding the genocide. I mean, the temple is considered a central location of the Air Nomads, where the younger generation is raised. the fact that it's not only empty, but there are still bodies there is a big clue.

As for Katara, one of her defining traits is she trusts really easily, bringing others into her group perhaps a bit too fast. Also, despite her age, she has taken on parts of a maternal role, which ties into here actions this episode in my view.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's actually pretty interesting regarding the impressions people had of that plot element. I'm curious as to what sold me on it, in retrospect.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just let it slide he'll take it as it comes and I don't want to alter his views. Just enjoy the ride.

Sorry, I was merely meaning that the difference between Zuko and a "protagonist" is more allegience than screen-time. On the basis that if he likes Zuko enough that it makes the Gaang bearable, he'll at least be kept entertained over the course of the series!

[Grey Watcher]

*shrug* I'm just giving you the impressions that I get from the show. Sorry if you don't like them.

I don't mean to sound overly critical on that front. And now I'm having trouble discerning whether I understood that it was a proper genocide by this point, or if I'm just filling that because I know more about what's revealed later on down the line.

Ah, well, I guess we shall see what you think farther on down the line. :smallsmile:

[Yora]

I think it's made very clear that Sozin
wanted to exterminate all airbenders, to make sure not a single one of them could become the avatar.

[Saph]

I don't mean to sound overly critical on that front. And now I'm having trouble discerning whether I understood that it was a proper genocide by this point, or if I'm just filling that because I know more about what's revealed later on down the line.

No problem! I think a lot of it is that at the moment I'm still having trouble figuring out when Avatar is and isn't meant to be serious – there's talk of war and death, yet hitting someone with a magical flamethrower just knocks them over. I suspect it's one of those things you figure out more easily once you're accustomed to the series.

[Reverent-One]

Back to Zuko. I’m looking forward to seeing a good duel here
Zuko starts off losing, then turns it around suddenly in some way that isn’t clear. Commander Evil expects Zuko to kill him for losing a sparring match . . . seriously? Zuko refuses, and turns his back on the guy. You know what’s coming next.
Iroh is awesome. He’s quickly becoming my favourite character.


I love this duel, not just for the fight itself, but because I really like the variant theme that plays throughout, though sadly I don't think we hear it again at any other point in the series.

[Grey Watcher]

I love this duel, not just for the fight itself, but because I really like the variant theme that plays throughout, though sadly I don't think we hear it again at any other point in the series.

Yeah, I was wondering why you, Saph, hadn't commented at all on the musical score, which I consider to be among the (from my view) many strong suits of this show.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Clearly, Jade Dragon is Yahtzee.

Probably. I mean, I really want to write down my thoughts on King of Dragon Pass, a game I love, sometime, and my first instinct is to rant about all the problems I have with it (mostly because I haven't seen someone else do it; it's been solid five stars across the board on GoG). My conclusion about a lot of stuff I like generally boils down to "it had more potential", because I can see how it could've been made.

[Yora]

I think I really should watch the show again these days. I'm usually bored by action scene and sometimes even skip through long massive battle scenes, but those fights in avatar are generally really good and exciting. I think because there's actually character interaction happening during them, not just a montage of people swinging weapons.
Especially starting in season 2, when Toph and Azula join the cast. Those two rock! (Or at least one of them. :smalltongue: )

[Cen]

I love this duel, not just for the fight itself, but because I really like the variant theme that plays throughout, though sadly I don't think we hear it again at any other point in the series.

Oh yes!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BnVP5Rlqnk)
chak chak chak!!

[Grey Watcher]

Oh yes!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BnVP5Rlqnk)
chak chak chak!!

"Your scar's on the wrong side."

[Mx.Silver]

Yeah, I was wondering why you, Saph, hadn't commented at all on the musical score, which I consider to be among the (from my view) many strong suits of this show.

Really? Because I found it to be forgettable at best.


Probably. I mean, I really want to write down my thoughts on King of Dragon Pass, a game I love, sometime, and my first instinct is to rant about all the problems I have with it (mostly because I haven't seen someone else do it; it's been solid five stars across the board on GoG).

Problems such as its atrociously unintuitive interface, the fact it emphasises 'role-playing' without actually giving the player a character, that its tutorial basically tells you to ignore the in-game advice and that the game seems to revel in its inaccessibility to a degree not even the Dominions series can match? :smalltongue:

[Saph]

Yeah, I was wondering why you, Saph, hadn't commented at all on the musical score, which I consider to be among the (from my view) many strong suits of this show.

The soundtrack from that part was really good, yeah. Just didn't think to mention it at the time!

[Prime32]

There's some strong leitmotifs there. I mean, the basic Fire Nation theme can signal danger with four notes, and some characters have variations on it as personal themes. Some of the reprises later on are pretty great.

They actually created a new instrument for the soundtrack (via compositing trickery), the tsungi horn. It's got a pretty distinctive sound, and you can occasionally see Fire Nation characters playing them.

[Grey Watcher]

So, I've been inspired to rewatch some of this myself. I think one detail that might help your suspension of disbelief, Saph, is that generally, when people get "hit" with a fireblast, they're often using their own bending technique to deflect the brunt of it (air in Aang's case, fire in Zhao or Zuko's). It's subtle, but I haven't spotted an instance where some just takes fire to the face and shrugs it off for no raisin.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I see what you did there.

[Zevox]

Zuko starts off losing, then turns it around suddenly in some way that isn’t clear. Commander Evil expects Zuko to kill him for losing a sparring match . . . seriously? Zuko refuses, and turns his back on the guy. You know what’s coming next.
Zuko was not expected to kill him there. You'll understand the significance of that moment more fully when you reach the episode "The Storm."

Or you've had it spoiled for you completely if you read Nerd-o-rama's earlier post :smallsigh: . Yeah, that kinda makes the wisdom of a thread like this somewhat questionable. Some people aren't good at keeping a lid on spoilers, especially when the show has been around so long and is popular enough that discussing it with people who have seen the whole thing is quite common.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Problems such as its atrociously unintuitive interface, the fact it emphasises 'role-playing' without actually giving the player a character, that its tutorial basically tells you to ignore the in-game advice and that the game seems to revel in its inaccessibility to a degree not even the Dominions series can match? :smalltongue:

Well, no. I watched a couple Let's Plays, so I immediately figured out how the interface worked, knew what to do, and all that stuff, although it is a problem. Then again, X-COM had pretty much the same problem. As for the role-playing, they want you to think like the culture, not one specific individual.

No, my problems were with what you could do. Setting aside the fact that the AI Is A Cheating Bastard and will have clans raid you who don't have the "N" (Near) tag without any event triggering it, or have AI tribes do these things called "tribal raids" which break the "you can call on one clan who is your ally, owes you a favor, or is in your tribe to send a war party of a couple dozen warriors" rule, you're presented with this great, interesting world... and then railroaded into maintaining all your cultural prejudices (the most you can do to break out of your hatred of beastfolk is send enough warriors to fight the swamp undead that you impress the Marsh Ducks and trigger further events in the chain, and then you still have to deny them or else people will be angry at you), and the only major thing you can accomplish is become king of Dragon Pass. You can't ally with the Tarsh, you can't organize clans and tribes in crusades against the worshippers of Yelm the Bad Emperor. You can't fight the Pharaoh to the south, or the Red King and his growing Lunar Empire to the north. All you can do is make your clan prosper, then form a tribe, then (in the long game) for a kingdom.

[Metahuman1]

They never outright say the word Genocide, but they do talk about the airbenders being wiped out.

As for the fight, that was a duel, the kind you use to and in some places can still see in and among martial artists and martial art's schools. The thing with taking his leg out from under him, that breaks his stance. And in many forms of martial arts, your drawing a substantial amount of your offensive and defensive power from your stance being rooted firmly too and pushing off from the ground. Zuko deprived him of that, thus surprising him and weakening his offense and defense at the same time, and then he just came in full tilt attacking while he was off guard and unbalanced.

As has been said, by the time you see the storm ep, the significance of not striking the final blow on other evil fire guy will be there. Even more so after the summer solstice.

[HamHam]

Also an Agni Kai is more an honor duel than a sparring match. Which are usually to first blood at the very least.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Or you've had it spoiled for you completely if you read Nerd-o-rama's earlier post :smallsigh: . Yeah, that kinda makes the wisdom of a thread like this somewhat questionable. Some people aren't good at keeping a lid on spoilers, especially when the show has been around so long and is popular enough that discussing it with people who have seen the whole thing is quite common.

Sorry, I thought that was one of Zuzu's flashbacks in episode 2 or 3, not in The Storm. It's my own fault for not having watched the series recently, really.

That would make Zhao expecting a particular finishing move foreshadowing, then.

[Seerow]

Posting so I remember to keep tabs on this thread. Should get interesting over the next few weeks.

Also, I've got issues with spoiler policies sometimes, but come on people, this is a thread specifically about someone watching the thread fresh. Can we please keep the discussion based around what Saph has actually seen rather than going "Oh yeah that's an issue but it gets explained in episode X!".

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah....I'm onboard with that too.

We love AtLA around here, folks, but let's watch a fresh take.

[The Recreator]

Indeed. Everyone loves a good liveblog, and the best liveblogs are unspoiled liveblogs. :smallbiggrin:

Saph, have you considered using the first post to index future posts? It'll make it easier for people late to the party to come in and join the fun.

[Kato]

Posting so I remember to keep tabs on this thread. Should get interesting over the next few weeks.

Also, I've got issues with spoiler policies sometimes, but come on people, this is a thread specifically about someone watching the thread fresh. Can we please keep the discussion based around what Saph has actually seen rather than going "Oh yeah that's an issue but it gets explained in episode X!".
Seconded.


Indeed. Everyone loves a good liveblog, and the best liveblogs are unspoiled liveblogs. :smallbiggrin:

Saph, have you considered using the first post to index future posts? It'll make it easier for people late to the party to come in and join the fun.
Good idea, if it's not too much trouble.

[Saph]

Episode 4: The Warriors of Kyoshi

http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/2/28/Suki_and_two_Kyoshi_Warriors.png

Watchthrough Thoughts

Zuko and Iroh, yay! Zuko attempts to solve a difficult logistical problem: how are you supposed to catch a fast flying thing with a slow metal ship?
Domestic squabbles. Aang goes riding a carp and discovers that there’s always a bigger fish.
The group wants to leave, but is dramatically captured and prevented from moving on. Feels like a Dr Who episode.
Sokka mouths off to their capturers. You really need a very special level of stupidity to do that to a bunch of armed soldiers when you’re tied up.
Katara’s defence: “My brother’s just an idiot sometimes.” You might want to leave off the ‘sometimes’.
Aang proves he’s the Avatar (well, actually, he just shows that he’s an airbender, but these Kyoshi guys have weirdly bipolar reactions to strangers). News travels fast, and Zuko finds out.
Oh God. Now the story’s revolving around Sokka and the fact that “a bunch of girls kicked his butt”. This is going to be painful, isn’t it?
It’s a relief to watch Aang getting fawned over instead. Makes sense for his character that it’d go to his head.
“Sorry ladies, didn’t mean to interrupt your dance lesson.” *headdesk*. How is this idiot still alive?
Now Sokka’s going to “show them his moves”. Yep, this’ll be painful.
It is.
Is Katara jealous?
. . . and now Aang calls her on it. Heh.
The Sokka Humiliation Conga continues, while Aang and Katara have their first lovers’ quarrel.
Wow, Sokka actually lands a hit . . . and is beaten up again afterwards. Still, for him, that’s progress.
Sea serpent! Cool.
Aang, now might be a good time to remember that you can fly. No? Ah well.
Zuko appears! And he’s . . . riding a triceratops? Also cool. Still, don’t you think you might need more than six guys to attack a village?
. . . apparently not. Zuko’s looking a LOT more competent than he did in the first couple of episodes.
Aang vs Zuko, round . . . something or other. Aang finally lands a hit, but doesn’t seem happy about it. For someone who’s presumably spent a lot of time in martial arts training, he’s very hesitant about launching attacks.
The shot of Aang’s face as he sees the burning town is good. First time I really empathised with him.
And now Sokka’s got his love interest too. The Avatar writers like to pair their characters off early, don’t they?
Sokka and Aang get their “I’ve Learned Something Today” moments and Team Avatar flies off into the sunset.
Rating

C

Mixed feelings on this one. The good parts are very good. The bad parts are very bad.

Sokka pretty much hits rock bottom in this episode. I’ve honestly never figured out why so many TV writers think it’s a good idea to write scenes where their male protagonists loudly proclaim their superiority over the female characters and immediately get trounced. Maybe it gets taught in scriptwriting school or something. “Remember, class, when you’re writing a male character, make them as arrogant, stupid, and delusional as you can – the audience will love it!” You really feel that they’re actively going out of their way to make Sokka’s behaviour as bad as possible. By the time I was halfway through this episode I literally could not think of a single TV character whom I wanted to watch less.

Fortunately, you get the impression that the writers have (belatedly) figured out how lame Sokka is, and are starting to try to make him less awful – he was better by the end, though admittedly that’s not saying much. Maybe he’ll keep improving. I figure he has to, since I don’t think it’s actually possible for him to get worse. (My time reading Dominic Deegan has taught me that saying “it can’t get any worse” is one of the worst ways to tempt fate, but I’m going to desperately hope the Avatar writers are better than Mookie.)

The Aang/Katara romance continues, and I have to wonder where it’s going to go. There are what, 60-ish episodes in this series? At the speed they’re going, they’re going to quickly hit the point where they’ll either have to take the relationship to the next level (which would be very weird given that Aang is what, 11? 12?), or stall it out.

[Nameless]

Just feel like I should point something out here if I may.

Season 1 is pretty awful compared to the other two seasons. It's not bad as such, but I did get kinda bored and stop watching half way through. The only reason I ended up going back to it again was because my friend nagged me and told me that it got better towards the end of season 1, and even better after that. I did, and it was totally worth powering through the first season. Season 2 and 3 are incredible and have some of the best character development I've ever seen in a television series aimed at children.

My point is, if you get to the end of the first season and think it wasn't worth your time, watch season 2 anyway.
And don't even get me started on how fricking amazing season 3 is.

[Xondoure]

Season 1 is amazing the second time through. There are so many little things foreshadowing future events and characters.
Spot Azula! Lion Turtle carvings. And a few other things I can't remember right now.
But yeah, the characters start off rocky. The episode you've just seen is the beginning of Sokka becoming a better character. I'll be interested to see how much of the changes you catch before they become obvious.

Season 2 introduces the best characters and really begins to flesh out the world.

Season 3 begins... roughly. About halfway through it begins to get better again. And by the end it has some of my favorite moments.

Hopefully that's vague enough not to spoil too much of the fun. Looking forward to watching this. Especially since I'm trying to get someone to watch who has the same feelings starting out as you do. (It doesn't help that she's not a huge fan of "kiddy" animation. Or animation in general. So clearly there's going to be some Hayao Miyazaki coming her way.)

[The_Snark]

I'll be following this with interest. I only saw this show once and it's been a long time, so this'll be fun for me - not just seeing your first impressions, but also refreshing my memory of the story.

I'll add to the pile of people saying "it gets better in later seasons," too. I'm not sure that's a good thing, because I've never found that argument very persuasive when my friends try to convince me to watch a TV show, but... it's true. Take that as you will.

[Mx.Silver]

I'll add to the pile of people saying "it gets better in later seasons," too. I'm not sure that's a good thing, because I've never found that argument very persuasive when my friends try to convince me to watch a TV show, but... it's true. Take that as you will.

The reason why that argument isn't very persuasive is because it's just a more positive way of saying 'the earlier parts suck'.

[Silver Swift]

I'll add to the pile of people saying "it gets better in later seasons," too. I'm not sure that's a good thing, because I've never found that argument very persuasive when my friends try to convince me to watch a TV show, but... it's true. Take that as you will.

The problem with this argument is that it very much looks like moving the goalposts. Saph didn't like the first episodes, but people convinced him/her that the series gets better, so he/she is giving it another shot by watching the entire first season. Now excusing every flaw of the series by claiming the series gets better in season two is kind of unfair, how much of a show does someone have to watch before judging it?

I liked Avatar even despite it's childish bits, I thought they were handled significantly better than the supposedly funny parts of some other shows (I'm looking at you Soul Eater), but I can definitely imagine that they are enough for some people to dismiss the series as a whole.

[BWR]

[
Aang vs Zuko, round . . . something or other. Aang finally lands a hit, but doesn’t seem happy about it. For someone who’s presumably spent a lot of time in martial arts training, he’s very hesitant about launching attacks.


In defense of Aang, he is not actually taught martial arts as such, he was taught Bending, which has similar forms to MA. He was raised a pacifist by peaceful, quiet monks. Bending is a spirutal art, meant to improve oneself, not hurt people.
He is also 12. Actually trying to hurt someone is very alien to his nature.

[LordChaos13]

Bending is inspired by martial arts, not constrained by it in-universe.
This is more apparent with the Air Monks as the Firebenders use it for direct conflict (due to their fire nature)
An Airbender relies on moving out of the way, embodies avoiding conflict whenever possible and only defeating their opponent by making them defeat themselves. it likely IS the first time he tried to hurt someone, even sparring. Running someone into a wall: Perfectly fine for an Airbender
Punching them in the face: Antithetical to their philosophy.

This is explored more in season 2 with Toph's training however so I do not expect you to fully understand, you couldnt. Just remember a preteen pacifist raised from birth to be an aescetic monk just hit a guy, of COURSE he is going to look shocked and stuff

[Yora]

My point is, if you get to the end of the first season and think it wasn't worth your time, watch season 2 anyway.
I don't think so. Once you made it to the last 3 episodes of the first season, you're over the hill and have all the evidence you need why you should keep watching.
If you don't want to see more like that (and I think except for a few odd episodes the show mostly stays at that level), then it will never please you.

[DigoDragon]

Fortunately, you get the impression that the writers have (belatedly) figured out how lame Sokka is, and are starting to try to make him less awful

Yeah, hopefully. Being a non-bender, he's already crippled standing alongside Aang and Katara during a fight.

[Xondoure]

Bending is inspired by martial arts, not constrained by it in-universe.
This is more apparent with the Air Monks as the Firebenders use it for direct conflict (due to their fire nature)
An Airbender relies on moving out of the way, embodies avoiding conflict whenever possible and only defeating their opponent by making them defeat themselves. it likely IS the first time he tried to hurt someone, even sparring. Running someone into a wall: Perfectly fine for an Airbender
Punching them in the face: Antithetical to their philosophy.

This is explored more in SPOILERS

*cough* :smalltongue:

[Kato]

Fortunately, you get the impression that the writers have (belatedly) figured out how lame Sokka is, and are starting to try to make him less awful

You know, sometimes people make character who aren't perfect from the start so they can give them development... :smallwink: Especially when these things happen in episode four I'm wiling to think this was planned out and not something "they finally figured out".

[LordChaos13]

Oh because the name of someone who trains Aang is a spoiler?
I havent given anything else away except it happens sometime in season 2

[Xondoure]

Oh because the name of someone who trains Aang is a spoiler?
I havent given anything else away except it happens sometime in season 2

Yes it is. Anything about a character that has not been introduced is by very definition a spoiler. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude. It's just something long time fans have to check ourselves on with these sort of threads.

Also, while explaining things that happen in greater detail is not necessarily a bad thing, explaining things that will be developed inside the show will make those parts less interesting when they do appear. However how that is handled is really up to Saph.

[Cen]

how much of a show does someone have to watch before judging it?

Is this serious question? Basically - all of it.
You can't judge a show after 4 episodes and say you won't watch it anymore because one character sucks and you hate him, when he develops ad changes through the show. That's why I don't like threads like this - overanalazing thigs always spoils them.

[Saph]

You know, sometimes people make character who aren't perfect from the start so they can give them development... :smallwink: Especially when these things happen in episode four I'm wiling to think this was planned out and not something "they finally figured out".

Trust me, speaking as a writer, you are not doing yourself any favours by making your protagonist unpleasant to watch. If you make the rest of the story good enough to make up for it and you make the character improve later on then your audience will forgive you for it, but trying to claim that you did it on purpose doesn't help.

[afroakuma]

Got to say, I'm loving the episode commentary and hating... just about every other post in the thread. Come on guys, spoiler much? :smallyuk:

[MLai]

there's talk of war and death, yet hitting someone with a magical flamethrower just knocks them over.
Actually, this is not true. This is an erroneous impression (often reached after the Agni Kai eps) that had been dissected and disproved.
The thing is, Firebenders fighting each other are somewhat resistant to the flames. Think of it as a personal Fire Resistance shield over the skin if you want, but it makes sense that ppl manipulating fire aren't easily burnt by their own element unless they're completely overwhelmed.
When Firebenders tag non-Firebenders, either the non-Firebenders have Hollywood-level resistance but no true fire resistance, or they deflected it using their own element, or they were wearing protective asbestos-like clothing, or they get burnt. You will never see a non-Firebender get blasted squarely with a plume of flame, and only end up being knocked back.

Trust me, speaking as a writer, you are not doing yourself any favours by making your protagonist unpleasant to watch. If you make the rest of the story good enough to make up for it and you make the character improve later on then your audience will forgive you for it, but trying to claim that you did it on purpose doesn't help.
What did you think about Po in Kung Fu Panda, then? Because Jack Black spends the first half of the entire movie acting like a hopeless dunce, and the only reason his actions at that time were funny was because you could laugh AT him. And he's the main character.

[John Cribati]

Trust me, speaking as a writer, you are not doing yourself any favours by making your protagonist unpleasant to watch. If you make the rest of the story good enough to make up for it and you make the character improve later on then your audience will forgive you for it, but trying to claim that you did it on purpose doesn't help.

But in this case, it's quite obvious Sokka was an ass on purpose. I mean, this is four episodes in; it's not like they had months in-between episodes to see how the fans reacted. Besides which, Sokka has a reason to be a bit of an ass- he's the oldest man in the tribe, which basically means he's in charge of the hunting and defense of the village. Of course he's gonna have a few ideas about the roles of men vs. women and how it should work.

Though that does beg the question of why Sokka and Katara were the only teenagers. That would mean that nobody in the tribe had kids for ~10 years…

[SmartAlec]

Trust me, speaking as a writer, you are not doing yourself any favours by making your protagonist unpleasant to watch. If you make the rest of the story good enough to make up for it and you make the character improve later on then your audience will forgive you for it, but trying to claim that you did it on purpose doesn't help.

It's been done to good effect, though? The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant comes to mind.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Though that does beg the question of why Sokka and Katara were the only teenagers. That would mean that nobody in the tribe had kids for ~10 years…

It's implied/shown later (definitely by season 3) that the Fire Nation had been carrying off almost anyone able-bodied from the Southern Water Tribe for years, and only stopped when they felt sure they snagged the last Waterbender.

[John Cribati]

It's implied/shown later (definitely by season 3) that the Fire Nation had been carrying off almost anyone able-bodied from the Southern Water Tribe for years, and only stopped when they felt sure they snagged the last Waterbender.

But Katara was still a little girl when they last came. That leaves at least 4 years to have kids before the men went off to war.
And judging from this screencap,
http://piandao.org/screenshots/water/water1/water1-509.jpg
The oldest kids there look to be in the 9-11 range, then it drops straight down to 5 and 6-year-olds. Katara is canonically 14, so that's 3 years in between her birth and those kids, then another 3-4 years in between them and the littler kids. The youngest kids would have to be around 3-4 since the men left around that time, but still...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually, this is not true. This is an erroneous impression (often reached after the Agni Kai eps) that had been dissected and disproved.
The thing is, Firebenders fighting each other are somewhat resistant to the flames. Think of it as a personal Fire Resistance shield over the skin if you want, but it makes sense that ppl manipulating fire aren't easily burnt by their own element unless they're completely overwhelmed.
When Firebenders tag non-Firebenders, either the non-Firebenders have Hollywood-level resistance but no true fire resistance, or they deflected it using their own element, or they were wearing protective asbestos-like clothing, or they get burnt. You will never see a non-Firebender get blasted squarely with a plume of flame, and only end up being knocked back.

What did you think about Po in Kung Fu Panda, then? Because Jack Black spends the first half of the entire movie acting like a hopeless dunce, and the only reason his actions at that time were funny was because you could laugh AT him. And he's the main character.

I'd guess straight up comedies have more leeway on having an ineffective main character since much of today's comedy comes from seeing people fail, besides even Po does gets better as the movie goes on.

[Saph]

But in this case, it's quite obvious Sokka was an ass on purpose.

That doesn't make it better.

If every character on the show was as likeable as Sokka I'd have rated every episode E, quit already, and I'd have some choice words for the guys who'd encouraged me to keep watching.

[Mx.Silver]

Is this serious question? Basically - all of it.

This again, huh?
Okay, to be fair this seems to be a confusion between forming an opinion and making an analytical critique. For the latter, yes you obviously need to have seen all of, but that is a completely different game to making a personal value judgement. If earlier episodes are not engaging that it is entirely reasonable to decide that it isn't worth you watching the rest of, in exactly the same way as it's entirely reasonable to decide it is worth watching if you do find them engaging. That's part of the job of earlier episodes, after all. Hence why a lot of people consider Breaking Bad a good show even though it hasn't finished yet, and also why I would assume the vast majority of you airbender fans stuck with the show through all three seasons.




Actually, this is not true. This is an erroneous impression (often reached after the Agni Kai eps) that had been dissected and disproved.
The thing is, Firebenders fighting each other are somewhat resistant to the flames. Think of it as a personal Fire Resistance shield over the skin if you want, but it makes sense that ppl manipulating fire aren't easily burnt by their own element unless they're completely overwhelmed.
When Firebenders tag non-Firebenders, either the non-Firebenders have Hollywood-level resistance but no true fire resistance, or they deflected it using their own element, or they were wearing protective asbestos-like clothing, or they get burnt. You will never see a non-Firebender get blasted squarely with a plume of flame, and only end up being knocked back.

I shouldn't really need to elaborate on this, but explaining that fire doesn't really hurt people outside of a couple of plot-mandated instances (even when it should, see also convection of heat) doesn't detract from that being a problem for a viewing - especially if you're arguing for 'Hollywood-level resistance'. It also really doesn't help that most of this reads like ad-hoc fan justifications, rather than something directly addressed in the show.




What did you think about Po in Kung Fu Panda, then?



It's been done to good effect, though? The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant comes to mind.

1: It may not have worked in either of those cases either (describing Thomas Covenant as a good series is questionable to begin with, for example).
2: Even if it did, it is still fundamentally irrelevant to the topic at hand. The objection is that it's a problem here, and calling on works in different genres is unlikely to undermine that.





But in this case, it's quite obvious Sokka was an ass on purpose. I mean, this is four episodes in; it's not like they had months in-between episodes to see how the fans reacted. Besides which, Sokka has a reason to be a bit of an ass

As Saph said, just because something is intentional doesn't make it better.
Furthermore, he only has a 'reason' to be that way because the writers gave him one. The could just as easily have not done so.

[Grey Watcher]

Rating

C

I watched this episode yesterday, in anticipation of this post, and I'm genuinely shocked this one didn't prompt you to give a D, or even the series first F. I was sure between the Sokka B-plot and Aang indulging the fangirls and having a romance plot instead of y'know the WAR, you were going to hate this one.


Fortunately, you get the impression that the writers have (belatedly) figured out how lame Sokka is, and are starting to try to make him less awful – he was better by the end, though admittedly that’s not saying much.

Personally, I like dealing with Sokka's (or any character's) personality flaws explicitly rather than just suddenly "Oh, look he's all better now"

In my rewatching, I've honestly been mildly surprised that early-Sokka is actually LESS obnoxious than I had remembered him. Basically he's normal about 70-85%, then gets a little nuts with the blatant sexism or the meat lust.

Oh, and on the subject of "You totally have to watch this into Season 2, 3, read the supplementary comics, whatever", I think you should stick to your original goal: watch Season 1, and decide then if you want to continue. Yes, in my (and apparently many other fans') opinion, the show really hits its stride during Season 2, but I think by the end of Season 1 you'll have gotten a decent taste of the show's potential and if you want to see how well the show realizes that potential.

[Saph]

I watched this episode yesterday, in anticipation of this post, and I'm genuinely shocked this one didn't prompt you to give a D, or even the series first F. I was sure between the Sokka B-plot and Aang indulging the fangirls and having a romance plot instead of y'know the WAR, you were going to hate this one.

Well, I hated the Sokka parts, but the fight at the end was very well done and a lot of fun to watch. I think I'm finding that if there's a good ending then I'm more likely to forget any bad bits in the middle.

The opening scene with Zuko and Iroh pulled it up a fair bit, too. :smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

The objection is that it's a problem here

Is it a problem here? As far as I can gather, this is 'one person doesn't like one character on a TV show', which I'm sure is something you can say of almost every TV show. Yes, you could try and make every main and supporting protagonist in a TV series likeable or inoffensive, but that's not always appropriate. I'd go so far as to say it'd be a bad idea.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, I hated the Sokka parts, but the fight at the end was very well done and a lot of fun to watch. I think I'm finding that if there's a good ending then I'm more likely to forget any bad bits in the middle.

The opening scene with Zuko and Iroh pulled it up a fair bit, too. :smallbiggrin:

Zuko and Iroh (specially Iroh) make everything better.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, I hated the Sokka parts, but the fight at the end was very well done and a lot of fun to watch. I think I'm finding that if there's a good ending then I'm more likely to forget any bad bits in the middle.

The opening scene with Zuko and Iroh pulled it up a fair bit, too. :smallbiggrin:

Zuko and Iroh are always fun to watch, aren't they?

As for watching Sokka make an ass out of himself and then get beaten up for it, well, I derive a certain perverse catharsis from scenes like that, so I liked it a lot better than you did. Add to that him genuinely taking the lesson to heart was really nice to see. (I'm having trouble recalling specific examples, but I feel like a lot of works just beat up the sexist/racist/jingoist/whatever character for no reason beyond the comedy in watching an acceptable target get comeuppance.)

(Also, on the subject of the side-argument about Po. While he's bumbling klutz to start, he's definitely much less abrasive (and therefore more sympathetic) than Sokka is.)

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, while we're on the subject of this episode: the shot where Aang and Katara wash up on shore after the Unagi attack; is that a visual reference to Disney's Pinocchio? It really hit me with that impression, but I don't own a copy of the movie, can't find it streaming anywhere, and can't find a clip on YouTube that includes that particular shot (the cast washing up on shore after the Escape from Monstro sequence). :smallconfused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Zuko and Iroh are always fun to watch, aren't they?

As for watching Sokka make an ass out of himself and then get beaten up for it, well, I derive a certain perverse catharsis from scenes like that, so I liked it a lot better than you did. Add to that him genuinely taking the lesson to heart was really nice to see. (I'm having trouble recalling specific examples, but I feel like a lot of works just beaten up the sexist/racist/jingoist/whatever character for no reason beyond the comedy in watching an acceptable target get comeuppance.)

(Also, on the subject of the side-argument about Po. While he's bumbling klutz to start, he's definitely much less abrasive (and therefore more sympathetic) than Sokka is.)

Eh Po is essentially a fanboy that is thrust into his fandom, a wish I am sure many of us would love to be fulfilled, Sokka is just trying to cope with a seriously bad situation, he was left behind by his father (who is his hero) and had to grow up extremely quick, heck I'd say he had to grow even quicker than Katara, since he only had his martial skill to feed the tribe.
Katara at least had Waterbending and she was a prodigy, while Sokka had to work extremely hard to even get to an acceptable skill level.

While Sokka definitely has a rough start he really grows as the series goes on.

[Calemyr]

I think Sokka starts off in a very proper place. He's a guy in his early teens, who believes he is supposed to be the protector of his people (or at least become that), yet struggles with the fact that benders (including his sister) have power he can't. He's trying to be a man while he's still just a kid and trying to be a warrior in a world where warriors seem, at best, superfluous. As such, he acts out, trying to make himself bigger and more important than he's afraid he actually is.

Being on the road, with all the trials and tragedies that entails, helps him mature, arguably more than anyone else in the group. He's always goofy, he's always a little less with it than he wants to pretend he is, but he finds a place he fits and becomes a lot less annoying and actually kinda cool. He just has to earn that maturity, which makes him insufferable for a good part of the first season.

[Grey Watcher]

Enspoilered for your protection!


Eh Po is essentially a fanboy that is thrust into his fandom, a wish I am sure many of us would love to be fulfilled, Sokka is just trying to cope with a seriously bad situation, he was left behind by his father (who is his hero) and had to grow up extremely quick, heck I'd say he had to grow even quicker than Katara, since he only had his martial skill to feed the tribe.
Katara at least had Waterbending and she was a prodigy, while Sokka had to work extremely hard to even get to an acceptable skill level.

While Sokka definitely has a rough start he really grows as the series goes on.

Oh, I do like Sokka and his character arc. I just think that, on the Grand Scale of Likeliness of Immediately Garnering Audience Sympathy, Po ranks much higher. For Sokka, you have to learn more about the context and circumstances before his earlier bluster really starts to make sense. Po just kind of has an adorable quality right from the outset.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Enspoilered for your protection!



Oh, I do like Sokka and his character arc. I just think that, on the Grand Scale of Likeliness of Immediately Garnering Audience Sympathy, Po ranks much higher. For Sokka, you have to learn more about the context and circumstances before his earlier bluster really starts to make sense. Po just kind of has an adorable quality right from the outset.


I agree that Po is more immediately likable, heck there were many scenes (particularly when he first enteres the temple and he starts gushing at everything in there) where I felt really identified with him, plus they could condense all his character growth is what... 1 and a half hour?

However I think Sokka becomes a much better character, his first big step into that is definitely during the Siege of the North.

[Mx.Silver]

Is it a problem here? As far as I can gather, this is 'one person doesn't like one character on a TV show', which I'm sure is something you can say of almost every TV show.

So why did you feel the need to jump-in in response to it?

[SmartAlec]

So why did you feel the need to jump-in in response to it?

You've... lost me, sorry.

Saph made a general comment that from her experience as a writer, making your protagonists unlikeable is a mistake. I suggested an example, you told me to stick to the topic of this particular show, so I have done so.

One person states a position ("this is a problem on this show"), and another questions it ("Is it actually a problem?"), thus allowing the original speaker to expand on their position. That's a common way for discussion to begin, and that's all I was aiming for.

[Metahuman1]

Would it help to point out again that yes, jerk get's slapsticked, but after that he does actually get humbled some, make a sincere apology, and start actually learning?

[Dusk Eclipse]

You've... lost me, sorry.

Saph made a general comment that from her experience as a writer, making your protagonists unlikeable is a mistake. I suggested an example, you told me to stick to the topic of this particular show, so I have done so.

One person states a position ("this is a problem on this show"), and another questions it ("Is it actually a problem?"), thus allowing the original speaker to expand on their position. That's a common way for discussion to begin, and that's all I was aiming for.

Saph is a he by the way.

[LordChaos13]

Guys, STOP APOLOGIZING.
Saph is reviewing based on thoughts formed while watching.
He is going to love Iroh/Zuko plots, the entire North Pole thing and hate current-Sokka. Us assuring him 'it gets better' isnt helping
Neither is saying stuff like "Even if you DONT LIKE IT you should STILL WATCH IT." Seriously? If someone doesnt like the series after seeing the North Pole and the entire season 1, let them stop.

He volunteered to do this stop pressuring more and more

[Grey Watcher]

I guess it makes sense, but the relationships between the trio, especially Katara and Aang, just feel rushed. They're treated as family when they haven't had the chance to develop a natural relationship.

...

So, I know I'm backing up a bit here, but I wanted to say this earlier and got sidetracked. I think the point isn't "remember, we're your family now" it's Katara actually committing in that moment to being Aang's family now that he's come face-to-face with the fact that his old family is gone. So it's really about cementing their bond into a familial one. You could still argue that that's rushing things, since they've only known Aang for less than a week at this point, but then they've also committed to journeying across the world so, in for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.

Did that make any sense?

[Saph]

You've... lost me, sorry.

Saph made a general comment that from her experience as a writer, making your protagonists unlikeable is a mistake. I suggested an example, you told me to stick to the topic of this particular show, so I have done so.

One person states a position ("this is a problem on this show"), and another questions it ("Is it actually a problem?"), thus allowing the original speaker to expand on their position. That's a common way for discussion to begin, and that's all I was aiming for.

General rules for writing: there are two main things that make readers stick with a story.

1) Plot – they want to find out what happens next.
2) Characters – they care about the people the story happens to.

If the characters in your story are boring or annoying, your plot (and everything else) has to do double duty to make up for it. The Thomas Covenant books are moderately successful in spite of having a dislikable protagonist, not because of it – and lots of readers either don't finish the first book or do finish but hate it, simply because the protagonist's so awful.


So, I know I'm backing up a bit here, but I wanted to say this earlier and got sidetracked. I think the point isn't "remember, we're your family now" it's Katara actually committing in that moment to being Aang's family now that he's come face-to-face with the fact that his old family is gone. So it's really about cementing their bond into a familial one. You could still argue that that's rushing things, since they've only known Aang for less than a week at this point, but then they've also committed to journeying across the world so, in for a penny, in for a pound, I guess.

Did that make any sense?

It does make more sense looked at from that angle, yeah.

[Jerthanis]

That doesn't make it better.

If every character on the show was as likeable as Sokka I'd have rated every episode E, quit already, and I'd have some choice words for the guys who'd encouraged me to keep watching.

Well... Sokka is kind of my favorite character by an enormous margin, and part of that is that I didn't like him much at first. By contrast, Katara is my least favorite character by an even more enormous margin, but I started out really liking her.

To describe making a character instantly likable on the first superficial level you see in them as the One True Way of writing successful characters kind of isn't the most sophisticated way of seeing the writing craft.

For one thing, George R. R. Martin has a book series replete with unlikable protagonists and his series is probably the most popular fantasy series since Tolkein.

[Prime32]

For one thing, George R. R. Martin has a book series replete with unlikable protagonists and his series is probably the most popular fantasy series since Tolkein.I would have said Fawlty Towers (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/FawltyTowers). :smalltongue:

[Arkhosia]

Well... Sokka is kind of my favorite character by an enormous margin, and part of that is that I didn't like him much at first. By contrast, Katara is my least favorite character by an even more enormous margin, but I started out really liking her.

To describe making a character instantly likable on the first superficial level you see in them as the One True Way of writing successful characters kind of isn't the most sophisticated way of seeing the writing craft.

For one thing, George R. R. Martin has a book series replete with unlikable protagonists and his series is probably the most popular fantasy series since Tolkein.

But there are not really any true protagonists in GoT...

[Shyftir]

Jon Snow and Daenerys as well as Arrya and Bran. All of those characters are definitely protagonists. Davos Seaworth could be considered one as well.

[Tengu_temp]

I haven't actually read the discussion, just the reviews, so I'm not sure if anyone said this, but:

I'm sure this might be some kind of heresy for some Avatar fans, but for me, the show took a long while to get good. The first season varies from "okay, I am clearly too old for this" to "okay, this is good but nothing special". The whole thing reached its peak only in the second season, and despite how much people complain about the third season, I actually consider it superior to the first season.

So, expect not to like the next couple of episodes as much as people gushing over the show would make you think. And if you are on the fence whether you should keep watching or not after you finish the first season, I suggest you keep watching, because the second season is superior to the first in pretty much everything.

[Grey Watcher]

I haven't actually read the discussion, just the reviews, so I'm not sure if anyone said this, but:

I'm sure this might be some kind of heresy for some Avatar fans, but for me, the show took a long while to get good. The first season varies from "okay, I am clearly too old for this" to "okay, this is good but nothing special". The whole thing reached its peak only in the second season, and despite how much people complain about the third season, I actually consider it superior to the first season.

So, expect not to like the next couple of episodes as much as people gushing over the show would make you think. And if you are on the fence whether you should keep watching or not after you finish the first season, I suggest you keep watching, because the second season is superior to the first in pretty much everything.

For what it's worth, I was pretty well hooked after The Storm, so to each his own I guess as to when it starts to get good.

[SmartAlec]

General rules for writing: there are two main things that make readers stick with a story.

1) Plot – they want to find out what happens next.
2) Characters – they care about the people the story happens to.

If the characters in your story are boring or annoying, your plot (and everything else) has to do double duty to make up for it. The Thomas Covenant books are moderately successful in spite of having a dislikable protagonist, not because of it – and lots of readers either don't finish the first book or do finish but hate it, simply because the protagonist's so awful.

This is true, but as you say, it's not all the characters that you have a problem with - you're enjoying the Iroh/Zuko stuff, and that's the trick to a well-balanced show, that there's something for everyone. Some of the characters you dislike have time to grow, and when they do, there's then room for the characters you like to undergo a few hard times, changes or moments of unlikeability.

That gives a show a bit of flexibility and some room to change things up, stay fresh?

[Jahkaivah]

Why do I get the feeling this is going to end up being Saph Has Terrible Opinions - The Thread? :smalltongue:

Doesn't help that you've given your highest episode rating so far to the worst episode you've rated so far, or that you've given my favorite episode of the Season a -C.

Though having said that, you've said your favourite (or at least quickly becoming favourite) character is the best character in the show and have given the best parts of my favorite episode of the season a B (suggesting you're going to like the show's superior Iroh/Zuko subplot), so perhaps there is some hope.

Yes Sokka is a bit of a twit at the beginning, but I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that every protagonist has to be completely likable though, there needs to be some conflict in the group after all, and it does show genuine character development when he gets over being a jerk to Aang, stops trying to act tough and starts being a valuable (and funny) member of the team.

Avatar is a show that gets much better after the first season, but I don't think it is a good idea to play the "it gets better" card, it's not as if it was a bad show that became a good one.

After all, it's not like we have anything to lose from Saph not liking a good cartoon show.

[Zevox]

Just feel like I should point something out here if I may.

Season 1 is pretty awful compared to the other two seasons. It's not bad as such, but I did get kinda bored and stop watching half way through. The only reason I ended up going back to it again was because my friend nagged me and told me that it got better towards the end of season 1, and even better after that. I did, and it was totally worth powering through the first season. Season 2 and 3 are incredible and have some of the best character development I've ever seen in a television series aimed at children.

My point is, if you get to the end of the first season and think it wasn't worth your time, watch season 2 anyway.
And don't even get me started on how fricking amazing season 3 is.
Yeah, gonna have to disagree with that. Season 1 has some of the series' weaker episodes, but I'd rate it as the second best season (behind 2, which is amazing). Season 3 has some strong points to be sure, but a lot of problems in my opinion, ones that bother me a fair bit more than the tone of so much of season 1 being more aimed at a younger audience.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with that. Season 1 has some of the series' weaker episodes, but I'd rate it as the second best season (behind 2, which is amazing). Season 3 has some strong points to be sure, but a lot of problems in my opinion, ones that bother me a fair bit more than the tone of so much of season 1 being more aimed at a younger audience.

While Season 3 is worse than Season 1 in the sense that by Season 3, they've gotten on their feet and shown higher quality writing, I think Season 1 is worse.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The thing with season 3 is that the good episodes are simply awesome (Boiling Rock anyone?), but the bad episodes are also really bad (Ember's Island players)

[Hiro Protagonest]

The thing with season 3 is that the good episodes are simply awesome (Boiling Rock anyone?), but the bad episodes are also really bad (Ember's Island players)

Yeah, this is why. It had Ember Island Players and a goddamn Halloween episode (which they've tied into the story so now it's unskippable), but the episodes that were actually about the main plot, which was at least half, were really, really good.

[Jahkaivah]

but the bad episodes are also really bad (Ember's Island players)

You did not just insult the best filler episode!

[Hiro Protagonest]

You did not just insult the best filler episode.

You did not just defend the worst episode in the whole show.
The very start and the very end were good, but the play itself was utter drivel besides a couple of jokes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not a fan of fillers in general, to be honest I would have prefered an episode where Toph did go on her soul-searching solo trip with Zuko.

[Metahuman1]

Not a fan of fillers in general, to be honest I would have prefered an episode where Toph did go on her soul-searching solo trip with Zuko.

Yeah, I could totally have done that over Ember Island Players. Course, Ember Island Players, I later heard, was suppose to be the warning to the fan base that the Shamalan Movie was gonna be horrible.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You did not just defend the worst episode in the whole show. The very start and the very end were good, but the play itself was utter drivel besides a couple of jokes.

http://emos.plurk.com/941ea282f2423c7990efe6d1927eb531_w39_h25.png Seriously?

[Hiro Protagonest]

http://emos.plurk.com/941ea282f2423c7990efe6d1927eb531_w39_h25.png

404 not found.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Nuts. Rather than copy it to photobucket, I'll just say it's a copy of SomethingAwful's "That's the joke." emote.

Complaining about EIP's Show Within A Show being a terrible play is like complaining that Wormhole Xtreme is a terrible television show.

You know what I'm spoilering the actual discussion since it is technically plot details from the third season. Technically.

[Jahkaivah]

but the play itself was utter drivel

Wasn't that the point? :smalltongue:


Not a fan of fillers in general, to be honest I would have prefered an episode where Toph did go on her soul-searching solo trip with Zuko.

They did, the result was Lin Beifong.

Hey, don't mind me, just sailing by.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nuts. Rather than copy it to photobucket, I'll just say it's a copy of SomethingAwful's "That's the joke." emote. Complaining about The Boy in the Iceberg being a terrible play is like complaining that Wormhole Xtreme is a terrible television show.

I don't care if it's one big joke, it's fifteen minutes of one big joke that I do not find funny.

Wormhole Xtreme... I only ever saw the Stargate episode of that where that was first announced, and the team had to act as producers or something. And then it was getting late, so I turned the TV off. I did, however, see the episode where this random guy finds some artifact that occasionally gives him flashes of what's going on. I didn't find it particularly interesting.

I like parodies. When they're funny. Like Kim Possible. Kim Possible was a show that was both funny and serious, and when it came to the parts about the action hero stuff, they lampshaded everything. It was great.

[Aidan305]

Can you put spoiler tags around all your posts Jade Dragon. Remember there are people in this thread who haven't seen that episode and don't know what it's about.

Personally, the Ember Island Players is one of my favourite episodes. Certainly it's the one that I've watched the most frequently. But the fanbase is very much split over that episode. There are those who love it as a self-referential parody, and those who consider it to be ridiculous. But there's room enough in the fandom for both types.

[GloatingSwine]

You did not just defend the worst episode in the whole show.
The very start and the very end were good, but the play itself was utter drivel besides a couple of jokes.

But no-one even mentioned The Great Divide?

Ember Island Players serves two purposes. It acknowledges and gently jokes with the fanbase of the show and the production process (there are a lot of jokes in the play that make sense if you were part of the online fandom at the time it was current), and it serves as a breather episode just before the finale. Breather episodes are very important in show pacing, because you can't have the whole show maintain the same intensity without wearing your audience out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But no-one even mentioned The Great Divide?

Er, right, forgot about that. I was thinking "Season 3 filler" when I tried to think of an episode that was worse.

[Angel Bob]

Why do I get the feeling this is going to end up being Saph Has Terrible Opinions - The Thread? :smalltongue:

Doesn't help that you've given your highest episode rating so far to the worst episode you've rated so far, or that you've given my favorite episode of the Season a -C.

Though having said that, you've said your favourite (or at least quickly becoming favourite) character is the best character in the show and have given the best parts of my favorite episode of the season a B (suggesting you're going to like the show's superior Iroh/Zuko subplot), so perhaps there is some hope.

I believe you're confusing "not my opinion" with "terrible opinions". :smallwink:

That said, I'll have to agree with you on one thing: "The Ember Island Players" is my favourite filler episode by far. Very few shows can pull off an entire episode detailed to self-mockery like that, and even fewer can make it so funny. Let's face it, Season 3 is so dark that there have to be a few filler episodes just to give everyone some time to relax -- and as filler episodes go, I'd much rather have a hilarious and entertaining one than a boring one.

[Jahkaivah]

I believe you're confusing "not my opinion" with "terrible opinions". :smallwink:

There's a difference? :smalltongue:


In all seriousness, I'm quite enjoying hearing his take on things. He definitely has a very different reaction to a lot of stuff than I do, but his points are well-thought out, so I'll just call it Saph Has Most Excellent Opinions That Are Nevertheless Wrong :smallwink:


Hmm, perhaps it would be interesting to listen to a person whose ways are so rough and uncultured.

Saph amuses me, I will make him mine.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't get why The Great Divide is so hated. Sure, it's not great (irony), but it's not really that bad. It's average as far as season 1 is concerned. At least I enjoyed the artstyle changes, and I admire the guts they had to put the ending twist in.
"Sometimes, the only way you can make people bury the hatchet is to lie to them" is an extremely family-unfriendly moral... But it's also true, as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah, Ember Island Players is awesome. Heck, so is most of the season 3 filler. Really, the filler is better than the actual plot sometimes.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't get why The Great Divide is so hated. Sure, it's not great (irony), but it's not really that bad. It's average as far as season 1 is concerned. At least I enjoyed the artstyle changes, and I admire the guts they had to put the ending twist in.
"Sometimes, the only way you can make people bury the hatchet is to lie to them" is an extremely family-unfriendly moral... But it's also true, as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah, Ember Island Players is awesome. Heck, so is most of the season 3 filler. Really, the filler is better than the actual plot sometimes.

It's not outright bad, but it just isn't up to the same writing quality as the rest of the series, and by a noticeable margin. It's basically a pretty transparent setup to teach kids a moral about not being stubborn or working together despite your differences. It doesn't help that the tribes involved are drawn with a rather silly and unrealistic distinction (an entire culture of neat freaks and another entire culture of slobs?) On top of that Sokka and Katara suddenly find themselves with a new dispute between them that happens to exactly mirror what they encounter. Honestly, the fact that Aang settles the whole dispute with a lie kinda stands out as a spot of plausible, genuine writing in what is otherwise a very contrived setup. At least, that's my take on why it's not as good as the rest.

Oh yeah, and it doesn't even have the decency to bring something to the longer term plot like, say, "The King of Omashu". :smalltongue:

[MLai]

I shouldn't really need to elaborate on this, but explaining that fire doesn't really hurt people outside of a couple of plot-mandated instances (even when it should, see also convection of heat) doesn't detract from that being a problem for a viewing - especially if you're arguing for 'Hollywood-level resistance'. It also really doesn't help that most of this reads like ad-hoc fan justifications, rather than something directly addressed in the show.
If you cannot accept "Hollywood-level resistance (to injury)", then 90% of all shows/stories/movies involving kung fu is off limits to you, not just ATLA. What you have is nitpicking for nitpicking's sake.

And no, this isn't "ad hoc fan justifications", because it's completely consistent within the show. Find me **one** scenes in which a non-firebender gets hit square in the face with fire, and isn't injured, and/or only has "soot on his face" ala Looney Tunes. You can't; we've tried already.
The writers knew they cannot show ppl burning to death on a Nick cartoon, but that doesn't mean they cannot avoid such circumstances from happening through plot action. They did not take the easy way out and just say "fire doesn't burn skin in this world."

[Zevox]

You did not just defend the worst episode in the whole show.
No, he didn't. There was not a word in there about Nightmares and Daydreams :smalltongue: .

Yeah, I could've done without Ember Island Players too though. It's a cute idea, but should've been a DVD extra or special short for Nickelodeon's website or something, not a full-blown episode of the show. Especially with all the filler season 3 already had.

The Great Divide I feel was largely meh, with a dumb ending. Weak episode, possibly the weakest of season 1, but not the worst for me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, he didn't. There was not a word in there about Nightmares and Daydreams :smalltongue: .

I thought that episode was meh, but not the worst.

[Zevox]

I thought that episode was meh, but not the worst.
It was the one episode of the whole show where I really felt like I was watching a show intended entirely for young children. It was pretty much all jokes, even more so than Ember Island Players, none of which worked for me. And too many of them felt like they were back to being aimed totally at little kids, even worse so than in some of the early episodes I'd say. Just a complete waste of an episode from my perspective.

I can at least honestly say there are parts I enjoyed about the other weak episodes in the show. I can't about that one.

[Metahuman1]

It was the one episode of the whole show where I really felt like I was watching a show intended entirely for young children. It was pretty much all jokes, even more so than Ember Island Players, none of which worked for me. And too many of them felt like they were back to being aimed totally at little kids, even worse so than in some of the early episodes I'd say. Just a complete waste of an episode from my perspective.

I can at least honestly say there are parts I enjoyed about the other weak episodes in the show. I can't about that one.

Momo as Usagi Jumbo (or how ever the Rabbit Ronin that kept getting tied into TMNT continuity's name was spelled.) was a joke kids would get?

Also, I contend that while they took a silly tone, Aang cracking a bit under the stress in the days before what he thinks will be the final battle was worth while as a concept, he's 12 and the weight of the world is on his shoulders, that's a lot to handle.

And besides, the next two episodes were literally about invading the Fire Nation Capital and trying to beat down/capture/force a surrender/possibly even kill the fire lord, and that's JUST Aangs groups plot line, let along the other stuff. A lighter ep before hand is fine.

[Tengu_temp]

Nightmares and Daydreams is a strong contender for the best episode of season 3. I have no idea what you people are talking about.

Yeah, it's silly and complete filler, but it's very funny. It made me laugh more than once, and It's been over 10 years since I attended grade school.

[Grey Watcher]

It was the one episode of the whole show where I really felt like I was watching a show intended entirely for young children. It was pretty much all jokes, even more so than Ember Island Players, none of which worked for me. And too many of them felt like they were back to being aimed totally at little kids, even worse so than in some of the early episodes I'd say. Just a complete waste of an episode from my perspective.

I can at least honestly say there are parts I enjoyed about the other weak episodes in the show. I can't about that one.

I dunno, the daytime hallucinations and the dreams in the dreams in the first half are very silly and kid friendly, but the dreams in the latter half suddenly go all Requiem for a Dream on us. (Seriously, Toph without eyes is a pretty disturbing shot.)

Also, I'm gonna give my prediction about Saph's ultimate conclution to this thread. Saph... ... will decide at the end of season one that his overall impression is "meh" and not invest anymore time in it. And the rest of us will rise up in violent insurrection.

[Metahuman1]

I dunno, the daytime hallucinations and the dreams in the dreams in the first half are very silly and kid friendly, but the dreams in the latter half suddenly go all Requiem for a Dream on us. (Seriously, Toph without eyes is a pretty disturbing shot.)

Also, I'm gonna give my prediction about Saph's ultimate conclution to this thread. Saph... ... will decide at the end of season one that his overall impression is "meh" and not invest anymore time in it. And the rest of us will rise up in violent insurrection.

I fear you may be right, given that there are a lot of eps in episode one I think were gonna see get weak grades and there needs to be a certain average met.

[afroakuma]

I dunno, the daytime hallucinations and the dreams in the dreams in the first half are very silly and kid friendly, but the dreams in the latter half suddenly go all Requiem for a Dream on us. (Seriously, Toph without eyes is a pretty disturbing shot.)

Also, I'm gonna give my prediction about Saph's ultimate conclution to this thread. Saph... ... will decide at the end of season one that his overall impression is "meh" and not invest anymore time in it. And the rest of us will rise up in violent insurrection.

Now see, I think that

Iroh and Zuko alone will be sufficient to carry him into at least trying the second season, especially when people start mentioning Azula. It's clear he's already quite charmed by the anti-Team Rocket.

[Zevox]

Momo as Usagi Jumbo (or how ever the Rabbit Ronin that kept getting tied into TMNT continuity's name was spelled.) was a joke kids would get?
It's a joke I didn't even get, and I watched quite a bit of TMNT as a kid. I assumed it was just more of the random weirdness that pervaded the episode.


Also, I contend that while they took a silly tone, Aang cracking a bit under the stress in the days before what he thinks will be the final battle was worth while as a concept, he's 12 and the weight of the world is on his shoulders, that's a lot to handle.
I'd agree that there's potential to the idea. None of which was lived up to by the execution, in my opinion.

[Metahuman1]

It's a joke I didn't even get, and I watched quite a bit of TMNT as a kid. I assumed it was just more of the random weirdness that pervaded the episode.


I'd agree that there's potential to the idea. None of which was lived up to by the execution, in my opinion.

I think he would have been a bit dark for the first cartoon adaptation of the franchise, so I don't think he was there. He did show up in the comics/Graphic Novels though, and he did show up for an ep or two in the early 2000's 4Kids Reboot during the battle Nexus Story Arc. He also had his own comics graphic novels, though I'm not really familiar enough with them to tell you anything about them beyond "apparently they exist."


And like I said, he's twelve, while I admit the math test was a stretch too far and the pants thing was a stretch, him having a bit of a break down form the stress of it all once he had a chance to let the adrenaline die down while waiting for the biggest move yet made sense. The way it was done did actually sorta work I felt.


And again, given what happened for the next two eps and arguably for about 2-4 eps after that, we needed a lighter note ep before all that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

and he did show up for an ep or two in the early 2000's 4Kids Reboot during the battle Nexus Story Arc.

Wait wait wait wait wait.

The rabbit guy?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

If I may....perhaps we should keep complaining about Saph's opinions either out of the thread, or at least confined to spoiler boxes? This is something I'm genuinely interested in watching develop, and I would surmise that it's terribly annoying to have people telling you why your impressions of a series are WRONG because you just don't get it.

Saph shouldn't have to defend his opinions of Avatar, eh?

[Metahuman1]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

The rabbit guy?

Yes the rabbit guy. I forget if they did him with the single bit of straw he had sticking out of his mouth in that one but that was something he had in the comics.

Subtle, weren't they?

[Xondoure]

Yes the rabbit guy. I forget if they did him with the single bit of straw he had sticking out of his mouth in that one but that was something he had in the comics.

Subtle, weren't they?

You know, I totally missed that reference, and I have read a lot of Usagi Yojimbo comics. They're fairly good. Not excellent or anything, but it's a fun take on feudal Japan.

[Dragonus45]

You know, I totally missed that reference, and I have read a lot of Usagi Yojimbo comics. They're fairly good. Not excellent or anything, but it's a fun take on feudal Japan.

As an avid reader of them I second that, they are also a surprisingly accurate portrayal of the times.

[Saph]

Episode 5: The King of Omashu

http://images.wikia.com/avatar/images/c/cc/Omashu.png

Watchthrough Thoughts

At the Earth Kingdom. The natives aren’t friendly.
Man, Bumi looks disturbing.
Just how much property damage are they causing here?
The king’s that freaky ex-friend of Aang’s, isn’t he?
“How about you, little boy? I bet you like meat!” *creepy old man shoves drumstick into Sokka’s mouth*. I . . . uh . . . Not touching that one.
Stop trying to escape, guys, you’ll just end up back with the king, and he’s not going to hurt you anyway.
I’m not buying the threat of the crystal.
Challenge Two’s taking a lot longer than Challenge One.
And an arena battle for Challenge Three.
. . . Sort of.
Wait, now there’s a Challenge Four?
Ah, NOW we get the arena battle. Aang vs his childhood friend.
The moves are fun to watch, but the king’s very obviously playing with him. “Typical Airbender tactics, avoid and evade . . . sooner or later you’ll have to strike back!”
“What is my name?” Bumi.
And Aang finally figures it out.

Rating

C

Not much to say about this one. It's a decent enough episode, but not much really happens. On the plus side, Sokka’s become forgettable rather than actively annoying.

[Yora]

I am impressed. You seem to had it all figured out from the very start.

[Xondoure]

Well, it's not that hard. Flashbacks are always relevant. Still fun with all the puns flying around. Lettuce leaf?

[Juntao112]

Sokka vs his childhood friend.
I think you meant Aang.

[Saph]

I think you meant Aang.

Whoops. Fixed.

[AKA_Bait]

On the Ember Island Players episode:

Am I the only one who saw that episode as not just self-parody but a lesson to the group of teenagers about the power of propaganda and the weakness of self-perception? I liked the episode just for that angle alone.

[Kato]

I am impressed. You seem to had it all figured out from the very start.

Yeah, maybe it's because I was younger but I pretty much forgot about that five second flashback after it was done. Also, I wonder if anyone can become king of Omashu just like that. And grow 112 years old. Or however old Bumi must be.

[Xondoure]

Yeah, maybe it's because I was younger but I pretty much forgot about that five second flashback after it was done. Also, I wonder if anyone can become king of Omashu just like that. And grow 112 years old. Or however old Bumi must be.

Powerful benders can live a very long time. Kyoshi was at least two hundred IIRC. It may not be bending that allows this, but being in touch with your chi and opening your chakras. Hard to say.

[Kato]

I don't really think that's a big spoiler... still, this wasn't even alluded to at this point in the story so I assumed Bumi must certainly be dead after all that time.

[Xondoure]

I'm erring on the side of caution when it comes to things not fully revealed in the show yet.

By the way Saph, I've noticed no mention of Momo beyond his first appearance. Is he so dreadful you're ignoring him, or simply not noticeable?

[Saph]

I'm erring on the side of caution when it comes to things not fully revealed in the show yet.

By the way Saph, I've noticed no mention of Momo beyond his first appearance. Is he so dreadful you're ignoring him, or simply not noticeable?

Momo is the lemur, right? I've just filed him under "mandatory cute animal sidekick". :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Momo is the lemur, right? I've just filed him under "mandatory cute animal sidekick". :smalltongue:
That's obviously Appa. :smallwink:

[Tengu_temp]

Appa is actually useful.

[Saph]

More than useful, he's crazy powerful.

No-one seems to have pointed it out in the show yet, but when your enemies are sailing around on steamships, then having a flying monster who goes more than twice as fast as any ship makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to ever catch you unless you do something really stupid.

[Nameless]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with that. Season 1 has some of the series' weaker episodes, but I'd rate it as the second best season (behind 2, which is amazing). Season 3 has some strong points to be sure, but a lot of problems in my opinion, ones that bother me a fair bit more than the tone of so much of season 1 being more aimed at a younger audience.

I haven't watched the series in a while now, but I remember each season being better then the last. I'm sure that if I sit through it again, I'll find things that bug me, but I just enjoyed the progression of the series so much, and I liked how the story matured alongside the characters. Whilst I loved the second season, I remember highly enjoying the character development in the third season, and where things were going with Zuko. I also found the Fire Nation interesting, and was glad that we finally got to see more of it.

[Grey Watcher]

Rating

C

Not much to say about this one. It's a decent enough episode, but not much really happens. On the plus side, Sokka’s become forgettable rather than actively annoying.

Again, you surprise me. I was sure you'd hate this one. Still, good on you for spotting the "twist". If I remember correctly, I missed it, obvious though it may be.


Yeah, maybe it's because I was younger but I pretty much forgot about that five second flashback after it was done. Also, I wonder if anyone can become king of Omashu just like that. And grow 112 years old. Or however old Bumi must be.

Well, maybe he's actually Prince Bumi in the flashbacks, and they just didn't want to give it away?

[MLai]

[CENTER]Episode 5: The King of Omashu
Not much to say about this one. It's a decent enough episode, but not much really happens. On the plus side, Sokka’s become forgettable rather than actively annoying.
This eps is the first you see that really shows you what a Master Bender is capable of. Bumi's power and technique was a sight to behold. Because of the whimsical tone of the eps's story and characters, you'd even be excused if you've thought that this was a stand-alone "non-canon" eps with a one-time character whose powerset is just miles above what's normal for the show.

If watching Bumi strut his godlike bending didn't make you excited, I'm not sure if you really need to watch this cartoon.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I always assumed King was just the title for the ruler of the city (kinda like a Mayor I guess) and that any sufficiently powerful/influential person would be able to become one. Benders obviously have an edge over non-benders.

[Xondoure]

Future Season Stuff
Here's the thing about season 3. If you skip all the Aang parts after the first episode where they explain the aftermath of 2 until the Day of Black Sun, you miss nothing except the introduction of Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man. And you see Zuko sending him off after the Avatar. So really, other than the fact that the Gaang already saw him, his purpose in the story as a consequence of Zuko's actions is still fulfilled. Seriously, for the first half of season 3 Zuko is the only important character. Now, I like Zuko a lot. But it's incredibly frustrating to watch as the Gaang go on loopy adventures like it's season 1 again.

As I recall, this is partly due to the writer's strike, so it seems to be a case of real life getting in the way. Still, this brings season 3 down for me, even though I adore the ending to the show. My only complaint being Katara's presence at the Agni Kai. I'm one of the rare people who actually liked the firelord as presented (the phoenix king outfit was a bit much I'll grant you.) But come on, Mark Hamill playing pure evil? Magic. And the spirit bending thing never struck me as being pulled out of the blue, considering how important Aang's spiritual journey had been throughout the show.

Season 2 is very good. Despite that, it does have some rough episodes. I don't know about you but the story seemed to drag from me between the Spirit Library and Lake Laogai. Sure, there were plenty of really good moments. And Iroh's tea shop, but it was slow nonetheless. My point is it's not perfect just because Azula and Toph showed up.

Season 1 is a bit silly. But like I said before, upon rewatching it there are so many subtle seeds of plot being sown which grow into such beautiful flowers that it earns its place. Its biggest failing is that for first time viewers there's not a lot to immediately grab them, and there is no sense of urgency until the solstice episodes.

edit: Saph quoted the fight, so I'm pretty sure that part was entertaining.

[Saph]

edit: Saph quoted the fight, so I'm pretty sure that part was entertaining.

Yep, this. I enjoyed watching Bumi and Aang sparring, especially watching Bumi cycle through so many different attacks. A lot of the moves he was throwing were hilariously inefficient, but it was obvious that he was really good and was just doing it to give Aang a test.

I'm generally finding that the martial arts battles (along with Zuko and Iroh) are my favourite parts of the show. It might just be that it's the area I know the most about.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC the directors worked really closely with several martial artist to be as accurate as possible in their depictions, so yeah, those scenes (specially later in the series) are a marvel to look at.

[Grey Watcher]

More than useful, he's crazy powerful.

No-one seems to have pointed it out in the show yet, but when your enemies are sailing around on steamships, then having a flying monster who goes more than twice as fast as any ship makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to ever catch you unless you do something really stupid.

I don't think Appa can fly continuously though. The ships can keep sailing, though. So I think it's just that whatever lead Aang and Co. manage to get over Zuko gets eaten up while Appa sleeps. Plus, speed of plot and all that.

[Metahuman1]

Point: As for the damage, a large part of it would be easy enough for one or two well established earth benders to fix.

Also, No mention on the Merchant of Cabbage?

[smuchmuch]

I am impressed. You seem to had it all figured out from the very start.

You mean you didn't ?
I mean, he's got pretty much the same face as an old man than as a kid (except with way more wrinkles of course). Besides given the tone of the series at this point, it was a safe bet than they wern't going to show you the wacky weird friend in a flashback if they wasn't a point to it, so that made the indentity of the weird wacky king a pretty obvious conclusion to me.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't think Appa can fly continuously though. The ships can keep sailing, though. So I think it's just that whatever lead Aang and Co. manage to get over Zuko gets eaten up while Appa sleeps. Plus, speed of plot and all that.

This is pretty much how the chase plot continues working, yeah. Steam engines can run perpetually, but an animal has to rest (and the geography of this whole hemisphere is apparently favorable for surface ships). There's a specific episode about it, even, in season 2 when we get a bad guy who's willing to devote crazy amounts of resources to keeping Appa in the air without any rest.

[Saph]

This is pretty much how the chase plot continues working, yeah. Steam engines can run perpetually, but an animal has to rest (and the geography of this whole hemisphere is apparently favorable for surface ships). There's a specific episode about it, even, in season 2 when we get a bad guy who's willing to devote crazy amounts of resources to keeping Appa in the air without any rest.

But how are they tracking him once Appa gets above the clouds, or over the horizon from the ship? They'd need a lot of troops and REALLY good communications. Do they have radio or something?

. . . I'm probably putting more thought into this than I should.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But how are they tracking him once Appa gets above the clouds, or over the horizon from the ship? They'd need a lot of troops and REALLY good communications. Do they have radio or something?

. . . I'm probably putting more thought into this than I should.

You are. And the Fire Nation doesn't have radio, but they do have a very large and well-organized military that's been busily annexing this continent for almost a hundred years. Also messenger hawks, but that just raises further questions.

[Yora]

I think this is mixing up a couple of different episodes.

[Grey Watcher]

But how are they tracking him once Appa gets above the clouds, or over the horizon from the ship? They'd need a lot of troops and REALLY good communications. Do they have radio or something?

. . . I'm probably putting more thought into this than I should.

It's partly a combination of some reasoning (he knows Aang is heading generally northward, running off for field trips notwithstanding), intelligence gathering (no radio, but, if I recall correctly, most sequences of Zuko at any kind of port depict him picking up news and rumors about where Aang has been), and yes, some lucky guesses. Plus, later on... ... there's a fair bit of Zuko and Zhao jockeying to be the one to capture Aang, and they wind up inadvertently helping each other track Aang.

But, yes, you're mostly overthinking it. :smalltongue:

[John Cribati]

Future Season Stuff
Here's the thing about season 3. If you skip all the Aang parts after the first episode where they explain the aftermath of 2 until the Day of Black Sun, you miss nothing except the introduction of Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man. And you see Zuko sending him off after the Avatar. So really, other than the fact that the Gaang already saw him, his purpose in the story as a consequence of Zuko's actions is still fulfilled. Seriously, for the first half of season 3 Zuko is the only important character. Now, I like Zuko a lot. But it's incredibly frustrating to watch as the Gaang go on loopy adventures like it's season 1 again.

As I recall, this is partly due to the writer's strike, so it seems to be a case of real life getting in the way. Still, this brings season 3 down for me, even though I adore the ending to the show. My only complaint being Katara's presence at the Agni Kai. I'm one of the rare people who actually liked the firelord as presented (the phoenix king outfit was a bit much I'll grant you.) But come on, Mark Hamill playing pure evil? Magic. And the spirit bending thing never struck me as being pulled out of the blue, considering how important Aang's spiritual journey had been throughout the show.

Season 2 is very good. Despite that, it does have some rough episodes. I don't know about you but the story seemed to drag from me between the Spirit Library and Lake Laogai. Sure, there were plenty of really good moments. And Iroh's tea shop, but it was slow nonetheless. My point is it's not perfect just because Azula and Toph showed up.

Season 1 is a bit silly. But like I said before, upon rewatching it there are so many subtle seeds of plot being sown which grow into such beautiful flowers that it earns its place. Its biggest failing is that for first time viewers there's not a lot to immediately grab them, and there is no sense of urgency until the solstice episodes.

In all honestly, Season 3 suffered from the opposite problem that Legend of Korra does: There's too much time.
Season 2 was the best season because something was always happening. After Toph joined up, it was just a series of situations being thrown at the characters. They go to the Library to find into on the Fire Nation, Appa gets stolen and they have to get him back, Fighting the drill, Ba Sing Se and their political shenanigans, Azula throwing a Coup... so much was just going on that we just get dragged along for the ride.
And then the Gaang went to the Fire Nation. Where they have to hide, blend in, and be inconspicuous until the Eclipse. It picked up a bit after that, but they were practically going sit around with their thumbs up their asses until the comet passed by if Zuko didn't trell them Ozai was planning to burninate the Earth Kingdom.
So yeah, it was more that Mike and Bryan wrote themselves into a hole more than anything. And they couldn't just throw a bunch of junk in like they did with season 2, because they had to be inconspicuous most of the time. At the same time, a lot of the worldbuilding was important- the indoctrination of Fire Nation schoolchildren seen during the Footloose pastiche, an in-depth look at how Katara's tribe ended up as devastated as they were, general Fire Nation... things. So yeah. I wasn't disappointed in season 3, because I expected as much.

[Partysan]

Here's something about the martial arts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp2eSsLOXnA) (minor spoilers, mostly one general plot-related sentence and a few not terribly relevant pictures).

Also two things to Saph: One, it's quite interesting to get a published author's opinion on storytelling and while we're at it two: holy crickets, I totally missed Chosen coming out! (Need to visit bookstore and read up on new ask Luna...)

[CurlyKitGirl]

You mean you didn't ?
I mean, he's got pretty much the same face as an old man than as a kid (except with way more wrinkles of course). Besides given the tone of the series at this point, it was a safe bet than they wern't going to show you the wacky weird friend in a flashback if they wasn't a point to it, so that made the indentity of the weird wacky king a pretty obvious conclusion to me.

It was the eyes and manic grin that did it for me; it's probably why I don't really like that episode. I don't mind secret identities/mistaken identities/similar where no one in-universe knows who it is, because that allows for all sorts of narrative tricks, character development, and all sorts of interesting things. But. This is an episode solely revolving around it. Nothing else. And we're shown a very distinctive child in a flashback before we meet the King who looks exactly like Bumi.
The King is either Bumi or at the very least his child. But given the law of the conservations of narrative and screen time it was Bumi. I suppose it was mildly fun watching Bumi poke fun at his old friend, but really, there's nothing to the story at all from the second you see the King's face aside from a few funny jokes.

As to how Bumi became King, it's easy. He's one of the most powerful earth benders in the world, and likely the most powerful one anywhere near Omashu. Viva la revolution. He probably just walked into the palace one day, challenged the current ruler and beat him. Maybe Omashu's literally a place where the strongest person rules.
The other possibility is that Bumi was always royalty, and Aang's clueless about class divides, so he never thought it was all that important. That option, at least explains why he and Aang were able to ride the mail chutes and not suffer any serious consequences.

Frankly, I'm surprised Saph rated this as highly as he did; this is one of the few episodes I'm always tempted to skip.

As for series one as a whole: Zuko and Iroh (and the Fire Nation parts in general) are by far the most consistently interesting. Those two characters are the ones that kept me watching even when I was considering just dropping the entire series early on in its run; those two are some of the most compelling characters western animation has produced in quite a long time.
And then spoilers:
You realise that Zuko is extremely well-written and acted because even though he's basically a reflection of everyone in the Gaang at once, it doesn't feel contrived or ham-handed because it's been so well set up before. It honestly feels natural (well, there are a very few isolated moments that don't (I'm looking at you season two finale)), and helps Zuko relate to everyone - and vice versa - eventually.
I'd still like to have had Toph's life-changing trip with Zuko rather than one of the less important episodes in season three, but I can understand why she didn't get one. That and maybe the comics'll give her one.
But Zuko and Aang are effectively the show's deuteragonists, so it makes sense for him to be so very well-written. Then Dante Basco went and made him so much more interesting than most other characters that it's almost unfair.
Yeah, I'm looking at you Katara.

[Saph]

Here's something about the martial arts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp2eSsLOXnA) (minor spoilers, mostly one general plot-related sentence and a few not terribly relevant pictures).

Cool, that was interesting. I didn't recognise the Shaolin style, though it's obvious now he points it out. I just identified it as "hard style, strike-based, aggressive".


Also two things to Saph: One, it's quite interesting to get a published author's opinion on storytelling and while we're at it two: holy crickets, I totally missed Chosen coming out! (Need to visit bookstore and read up on new ask Luna...)

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: I've actually been getting a ton of Ask Luna questions lately – got another batch written for this Friday and five more waiting to be answered.


It was the eyes and manic grin that did it for me.

Same. Especially the uneven eyes, they're REALLY distinctive.


As for series one as a whole: Zuko and Iroh (and the Fire Nation parts in general) are by far the most consistently interesting. Those two characters are the ones that kept me watching even when I was considering just dropping the entire series early on in its run; those two are some of the most compelling characters western animation has produced in quite a long time.

One thing I was worried about, early on, was that Zuko would inevitably fall into Ineffectual Cartoon Villain territory. It's hard to avoid, because when you have your villain constantly trying to stop the heroes on their journey, well, he's not exactly going to succeed, is he? But so far they've done a good job of keeping Zuko as a credible threat. (The rest of the Fire Nation, on the other hand . . .)

[SmartAlec]

And then the Gaang went to the Fire Nation. Where they have to hide, blend in, and be inconspicuous until the Eclipse. It picked up a bit after that, but they were practically going sit around with their thumbs up their asses until the comet passed by if Zuko didn't trell them Ozai was planning to burninate the Earth Kingdom.
So yeah, it was more that Mike and Bryan wrote themselves into a hole more than anything. And they couldn't just throw a bunch of junk in like they did with season 2, because they had to be inconspicuous most of the time. At the same time, a lot of the worldbuilding was important- the indoctrination of Fire Nation schoolchildren seen during the Footloose pastiche, an in-depth look at how Katara's tribe ended up as devastated as they were, general Fire Nation... things. So yeah. I wasn't disappointed in season 3, because I expected as much.

Season 3's problem is very simple: it's mostly Zuko's story, and the Gaang has to wait around so that by the time of the Eclipse, their storyline and his has synced up.

[LordChaos13]

Hey Saph what are your overall impressions?
Youve given us some specifics from the episode, but now your a few episodes in has anything changed in your perceptions?

If you could sum up each of the main characters in your impression and if they've evolved from your first conceptions of them as they got more screen time

[Xeratos]

I did like this show, but most of the early episodes were very childish/irrelevant. Considering that it aired on Nickelodeon, this doesn't surprise me. The Zuko/Iroh story and character dynamics are by far the most interesting parts of the beginning, and yes, Iroh is everybody's favorite character.

My biggest complaint about season 1 is the poor writing. Mostly, to me, it's a problem of motivation. I really can't see any reason for any of the protagonists to be doing what they're doing. Aang seems to have basically decided he doesn't care about anything that's happened. He's going on vacation. Kitara and Sokka have no real reason to be there other than because the writers wanted them to be. Even Zuko's motivations and reasoning for pursuing the avatar seem far-fetched to me (though by far the best out of anyone's reason for doing anything).

Sokka gets special mention just because of how poorly they handled his transition from buffoon into valuable member of the team.

All of his stupid ideas are just that: stupid. They don't work, and they shouldn't. Then, all of the sudden, they do. They're generic, unoriginal, and easy to see through. The few ideas he has that do seem like they should work also seem like someone else should have thought them up a long time ago. Apparently everyone else in the world suffers an off-screen brain aneurysm, making him the smartest man alive.

So that's a lot of the negative. The lion's share of season 1 seems to be filler, with little foreshadowing plot points scattered here and there, and the only story arc that advances anything really seems to be Zuko's. Almost the entirety of Aang's journey could be a 15 second slide show of him at various places.

On the positive side:

Aang is consistently growing throughout the series. Things he struggles with early on, he eventually comes to terms with. New things come up, and while it does lend him an overall air of whinyness, I also felt that considering his age, it was pretty realistic. It IS unfair to ask a little boy to shoulder the burdens he has.

The show becomes much more plot driven throughout the end of season 1 and most of season 2. Season 3 slows down, then picks back up. This, I think, is what made the show so successful. The characters were alright, and the early storyline was pretty meh, but once they stop goofing off and get serious, the show gets much better. And, as always, the Zuko/Iroh story arc, which gets almost as much screen time as the Aang side of things, is much darker and appealing to the adult audience.

The animation is very well done, and stays that way throughout the show. If anything, it gets a bit better later on. The fight scenes are what make the show, in my opinion. Though I'll grant that firebending always seems to be more of a kinetic force than actual heat. I'm pretty sure you just can't send things flying through the air, no matter how hot your flame is. Either way, they're the high point of the show to me.

[Kurgan]

One thing I was worried about, early on, was that Zuko would inevitably fall into Ineffectual Cartoon Villain territory. It's hard to avoid, because when you have your villain constantly trying to stop the heroes on their journey, well, he's not exactly going to succeed, is he? But so far they've done a good job of keeping Zuko as a credible threat. (The rest of the Fire Nation, on the other hand . . .)

Yeah, they do a good job of keeping him threatening. The Kioshi Island fight makes him out to be threatening enough that the group chooses to flee rather than watch the village burn, etc.

Season 1 Spoilers Ahoy!

It is a combination of several things that does it. First off, they spread out their fights. I think there are only like 4 more fights between Aang and Zuko in the rest of the season. This way he doesn't just constantly lose lose and lose some more.

Second is, the show outright shows in the first episode he is being trained by Iroh, who by episode 3 and his handily taking Zhao down after the duel is cemented as pretty badass when he wants to be. Basically just remember that while Aang might be practicing, so is Zuko.

Third, Zhao. Since the two of them tag team essentially as villains of the day, neither loses to the Gaang too many times. I think he gets into a straight up fight with Aang all of one time in the entire season. In fact, now that I think of it, most of the encounters with him were more race against the clock encounters.

Basically, since none of the recurring villains lose too many times, they still come out as tough and menacing.

On a side note, oddly enough, Zhao is one of my favorite villains from the show. A vain military man seeking glory and fame at all costs, while also being physically a tough match as well.

Though honestly, most of the Fire Nation characters are pretty interesting. What with Iroh, Zuko, and several more big characters who show up later.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Same. Especially the uneven eyes, they're REALLY distinctive.

I think perhaps if they hadn't shown us Bumi's complete face in the flashback it would have been better. Maybe if they'd shown it at an oblique angle and only the one eye it would have been much less obvious.
That's the problem with unique character designs though, they have unique features.
F'r'instance, I have a very noticeable scar on my forehead, a little higher than where Hindu women put a bindi, and a fairly large mole near my nose. These two things mean that my otherwise nondescript face is very easy to identify at most angles that show more than my left cheek area.
Give someone something even more obvious, such as odd eyes in a full facial shot . . . well.


One thing I was worried about, early on, was that Zuko would inevitably fall into Ineffectual Cartoon Villain territory. It's hard to avoid, because when you have your villain constantly trying to stop the heroes on their journey, well, he's not exactly going to succeed, is he? But so far they've done a good job of keeping Zuko as a credible threat. (The rest of the Fire Nation, on the other hand . . .)

This is something very hard to explain without spoilers, and I've not seen the series in a while, so I'll apologise for being vague right now and in case I accidentally spoil something. So logistics first then!
The one big thing about Zuko early on in the show is that he's almost supernaturally determined because he needs to capture the Avatar in order to go home.
He's not officially a member of the military, and has a smallish, but fairly nippy ship with what appears to be a comparatively shallow keel compared to the rest of the Fire Nation Navy. This means he's not limited to patrol areas or peacekeeping in colonies, and he can venture into shallower waters most other ships couldn't; at least, not without having to use scouting vessels. He's faster and more agile than most of the Fire Navy ships we see. He has only one task, whereas most of the military you do see, even Zhao, have many tasks.
Zuko can literally use all the manpower at his disposal to chase down rumours and the Gaang with relative ease. Zhao and the Fire Nation in general have the advantage in that they get a lot of reports and rumours, and have much more resources than Zuko, but there's the time delay in receiving those rumours, and having to balance chasing the Avatar with other, more important duties. Think of Zuko as more of a bounty hunter or small strike force, rather than a military in the middle of a massive campaign to conquer the Earth Kingdom, and it explains why other Fire Nation troops aren't as persistent.
Then you have to consider that Zhao's also hunting Aang, along with every other Fire Nation military commander in the area. If one person loses track of them, someone else finds them, sends in a report, and pretty soon everyone know where Aang's general last location was. They know he's going North, sticking roughly to the western edge of the Earth Kingdom, and the rest is just scouting, predicting his path and ensuring you send in your reports. And, of course, the Gaang meddle a lot, so they've made sure they can be tracked. Not to mention flying low in a massive flying bison is a little distinctive.
And you say you're reading too much into things. :smalltongue:

Aside from that, they really go to the trouble of making the bad guys people (sometimes), and not just an Empire of Faceless Evil. More than that, Zuko and Iroh are a family and they bicker, argue and worry for each other. They're interesting and a lot of what they say and do is almost coded with past experiences you want to know about.
You also seem to enjoy the fight scenes, so I'll tell you that you'll enjoy the show's progression in general on that front. A lot. I'm also not entirely sure exactly when this starts to happen, but you can see Zuko grow; particularly in terms of his combat skills and bending style. It changes and adapts, and going back and watching it again it's actually rather wonderful to see it happen. If they put so much effort into showing how a person's fighting style changes just from his encounters and travels, then certainly there's going to be a similar thing going on internally.
Sure, I like how Aang learns and becomes better at bending in general, but it's something to see someone who's already fairly proficient in his style almost entirely rework it.
Maybe spoiler, maybe not. I don't know. Definitely a good rewatch bonus though.
But if you look just at episode one where Zuko's training, and then fairly easily defeated/stalemated before Avataang activates, then look at episode three with the Agni Kai where Zuko handily takes down Zhao after some trouble you can already see that growth happening. And then lots of spoilers.

Next episode's pretty good, though this is where I started getting annoyed by another character. However, for me at least, this is when the show started getting better. Not much better, but that's just because of a foible I've mine I can't discuss yet.

[Yora]

One thing I was worried about, early on, was that Zuko would inevitably fall into Ineffectual Cartoon Villain territory. It's hard to avoid, because when you have your villain constantly trying to stop the heroes on their journey, well, he's not exactly going to succeed, is he? But so far they've done a good job of keeping Zuko as a credible threat. (The rest of the Fire Nation, on the other hand . . .)
One thing that keeps Zuko interesting is that he is permanently trying to rework his strategy to capture the avatar and his ultimate goal of being welcomed back to his homeland. When that doesn't work he gets some understanding of what his mistake was, often with some input by Iroh, and attempt to come up with something more effective. He's not the stupid cartoon villain who tries the same thing over and over again, and that's a major aspect of his character growth throughout the show.
And while it's less dramatic, there is a lot more to Iroh as well. With him I got the impression that his character is being kept simple in the beginning until Zuko becomes ready to actually understand what he has to say. Maybe he just grew along with Zuko organically, but it would make sense if it was both a concious descision by the writers early on, and also a deliberate choice by the character to act like a silly bumbling grandpa.

[Kurgan]

Next episode's pretty good, though this is where I started getting annoyed by another character. However, for me at least, this is when the show started getting better. Not much better, but that's just because of a foible I've mine I can't discuss yet.

Yeah, basically the worst is past you now in my opinion. Now is the point where I went from "this is ok, the fights are neat, I'll give it a few more episodes" to "ok, I rather like this."

Plus, you get to see


Fire Bender George Takei, who also has one of the most amusing lines in the early episodes in my opinion.

Rough quote as I forget:
"Wake the Captain."

"Uh sir...you just threw the Captain overboard..."

"Then find someone I didn't throw overboard and wake him up!



And then episodes 7 and 8 happened, which really sold me on the show at last.

[LordChaos13]

*Snip*

I totally agree with most of that.
Another aspect of the whole anti-cartoon villain thing comes up around 12-13 when
I mean it SPOILERS
Aang is captured. Like actually legit captured with no plan ti willingly go in, unlikely to escape...then BAM Blue Spirit. It really amps up the threat levels, when the villain WINS at his goal, Zhao captured the Avatar like he wanted

[Kurgan]

I totally agree with most of that.
Another aspect of the whole anti-cartoon villain thing comes up around 12-13 when
I mean it SPOILERS
Aang is captured. Like actually legit captured with no plan ti willingly go in, unlikely to escape...then BAM Blue Spirit. It really amps up the threat levels, when the villain WINS at his goal, Zhao captured the Avatar like he wanted

Matching you spoiler for spoiler here:



I love that episode, but...

1) Why didn't Zhao just send the Yu Yan Archers after Aang again? They soundly beat him once after all, and he just ran back to the same exact place they captured him.

2) Eh, personal opinion here, but would have been nice to elongate the reveal of who the Blue Spirit was, rather than have the mystery last all of 20 minutes. Even if it was more obvious than Boomi being Boomi.

3) That mask, the only thing I hear in my head whenever I see the Blue Spirit, from the very first time I saw that episode, is "Coo coo ca choo, I am the Walrus".

[CurlyKitGirl]

I totally agree with most of that.
Another aspect of the whole anti-cartoon villain thing comes up around 12-13 when
I mean it SPOILERS
Aang is captured. Like actually legit captured with no plan ti willingly go in, unlikely to escape...then BAM Blue Spirit. It really amps up the threat levels, when the villain WINS at his goal, Zhao captured the Avatar like he wanted

Really? No aspect of the anti-cartoon villain in episode 11/12 when
SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ THIS IF YOU WANT TO BE UNSPOILEDwe find out that Zuko got half his face burnt off by his father for speaking out in a war meeting. That was when I knew Zuko was more than just a villain.
And that Zhao and a certain little girl looked pleased about it (even cartoon villains tend to draw the line at abusing and torturing children after all). Especially when most of the rest of the audience are displeased at best.
http://www.musogato.com/avatar/pics2/omg-1x12azula1a.jpg


Matching you spoiler for spoiler here:



I love that episode, but...

1) Why didn't Zhao just send the Yu Yan Archers after Aang again? They soundly beat him once after all, and he just ran back to the same exact place they captured him.

2) Eh, personal opinion here, but would have been nice to elongate the reveal of who the Blue Spirit was, rather than have the mystery last all of 20 minutes. Even if it was more obvious than Boomi being Boomi.

3) That mask, the only thing I hear in my head whenever I see the Blue Spirit, from the very first time I saw that episode, is "Coo coo ca choo, I am the Walrus".



I always thought it was because there's a difference between archers hunting an unsuspecting target in the daytime, and archers hunting someone who knew they were coming. I also don't think it was the same place he was captured, just a random clearing in the forest.
Also, Pohuai Stronghold is an army base, not a naval base, so I figured there was some conflict of command going on; I mean, it was Zhao's Let Me Gloat Now speech that allowed the duo to escape, so maybe the people in charge told him to get stuffed. That, or Zhao probably just had all the Yu Yan archers arrested or something for 'ruining his plan'.

As for it being obvious, I somehow managed to see this when it aired for the first time over here. With the exception of a few minutes. Those few minutes that were the big clue to the identity of the Blue Spirit. So yeah, I was surprised the first time I saw the episode.
And damn that boy's good with his swords. I think that's actually my favourite fight scene in all of series one. But given that I've not actually seen the series in four years or so, that means it's just the one that sticks out the most in my mind,

[LordChaos13]

I think I was just mocked, twice...
Oh and the 3rd spoiler was a typo, I accidently doubleclicked


I dont see the tragic backstory dealing with the 'always losing never changing' style of cartoon villainy. Yes the backstory is integral to his character but its not his character I was talking about
Zuko could still be Zuko if he was in every episode facing down Aang and getting pwned, then trying again the same episode the same way. He'd be a weaker character due to his lack of threat but still be fundamentally the same, just our perception would change.
having his face scarred gives the reason WHY he chases Aang so doggedly, but the villain from Whacky Races doggedly chased being 1st too. Everyone still knew he would lose and thus his traps were jokes not drama

[Jahkaivah]

I think I was just mocked, twice...


Nah man...

It's not like that
It's cool.
Aang is the Avatar.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Really? No aspect of the anti-cartoon villain in episode 11/12 when
SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ THIS IF YOU WANT TO BE UNSPOILEDwe find out that Zuko got half his face burnt off by his father for speaking out in a war meeting. That was when I knew Zuko was more than just a villain.
And that Zhao and a certain little girl looked pleased about it (even cartoon villains tend to draw the line at abusing and torturing children after all). Especially when most of the rest of the audience are displeased at best.
http://www.musogato.com/avatar/pics2/omg-1x12azula1a.jpg



I always thought it was because there's a difference between archers hunting an unsuspecting target in the daytime, and archers hunting someone who knew they were coming. I also don't think it was the same place he was captured, just a random clearing in the forest.
Also, Pohuai Stronghold is an army base, not a naval base, so I figured there was some conflict of command going on; I mean, it was Zhao's Let Me Gloat Now speech that allowed the duo to escape, so maybe the people in charge told him to get stuffed. That, or Zhao probably just had all the Yu Yan archers arrested or something for 'ruining his plan'.

As for it being obvious, I somehow managed to see this when it aired for the first time over here. With the exception of a few minutes. Those few minutes that were the big clue to the identity of the Blue Spirit. So yeah, I was surprised the first time I saw the episode.
And damn that boy's good with his swords. I think that's actually my favourite fight scene in all of series one. But given that I've not actually seen the series in four years or so, that means it's just the one that sticks out the most in my mind,

In my opinion Zuko's battle with Jet in Ba Sing Se is a much better showcase of his martial skills, however that particular episode does show that Zuko had skills other than combat, that made him so much better in my mind.

[Kurgan]

[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

I always thought it was because there's a difference between archers hunting an unsuspecting target in the daytime, and archers hunting someone who knew they were coming. I also don't think it was the same place he was captured, just a random clearing in the forest.
Also, Pohuai Stronghold is an army base, not a naval base, so I figured there was some conflict of command going on; I mean, it was Zhao's Let Me Gloat Now speech that allowed the duo to escape, so maybe the people in charge told him to get stuffed. That, or Zhao probably just had all the Yu Yan archers arrested or something for 'ruining his plan'.




Fair enough, though since he pulled rank to get them in the first place...

That said, it is probably him scrambling to pick up the pieces plus that little thing called the war calling. While capturing the Avatar is his personal project, he still has a job to do, so can only chase down Aang on his free time.





As for it being obvious, I somehow managed to see this when it aired for the first time over here. With the exception of a few minutes. Those few minutes that were the big clue to the identity of the Blue Spirit. So yeah, I was surprised the first time I saw the episode.
And damn that boy's good with his swords. I think that's actually my favourite fight scene in all of series one. But given that I've not actually seen the series in four years or so, that means it's just the one that sticks out the most in my mind,


Fair enough, I didn't see the Boomi thing the first time honestly, so I think we are even. :smallbiggrin:

And hey, the fight was good enough to make it into the movie! :smallbiggrin:

Though yes, in all seriousness, was a good fight. Some of Zuko's coolest fights are when he doesn't bend.

Like the fight in Don't read this if you aren't halfway into season 2 yet! Zuko Alone, where he fights off the three Earth Soldiers and then dukes it out with the Earth Bender troop commander. That is an excellent example of how fights can avoid being entirely about glamor and style, but about what is going on within and between the characters.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I think I was just mocked, twice...
Oh and the 3rd spoiler was a typo, I accidently doubleclicked

Nah, I was just going with the flow. And besides, I've seen layers of up to eight spoilers when discussing plot elements others hadn't seen before, so three is practically reserved.


I dont see the tragic backstory dealing with the 'always losing never changing' style of cartoon villainy. Yes the backstory is integral to his character but its not his character I was talking about
Zuko could still be Zuko if he was in every episode facing down Aang and getting pwned, then trying again the same episode the same way. He'd be a weaker character due to his lack of threat but still be fundamentally the same, just our perception would change.
having his face scarred gives the reason WHY he chases Aang so doggedly, but the villain from Whacky Races doggedly chased being 1st too. Everyone still knew he would lose and thus his traps were jokes not drama

But we see that Zuko is fairly idealistic and genuinely compassionate for his people, which is something the Fire Lord seems to oppose. And Zhao, the other Occasionally Ineffective Villain was in the flashback too. And he smiled. Call it insight into their character.
Those moment do explain the differences between their methods. Zhao's more sadistic and pragmatic, so he'll go further in some areas, and Zuko just doesn't seem to risk his men all that often.
More often than not he's the one intelligence hunting and going off to hunt down the Avatar. It just puts a new spin on why they do what the do. And, in some respects, it does affect how we view their pursuits.
Zuko is, in effect, hunting down the (theoretically) most powerful bender in the world. After he'd been believed dead for a century. To return to his abusive father. So yeah, tragic backstory makes his determination tragic. He wants to return to an abusive father, because he doesn't understand it was abuse.


In my opinion Zuko's battle with Jet in Ba Sing Se is a much better showcase of his martial skills, however that particular episode does show that Zuko had skills other than combat, that made him so much better in my mind.

I'm just sticking to series one here. Jet and Zuko's battle is still really good, don't get me wrong, but in series one the only clue we had about Zuko being practically a sword master (or whatever you call it) was that he had swords on his cabin wall. So it's all the more interesting, and exciting, to see just how different his fighting styles are. By series two they started to integrate.
And yes, ninja Zuko is the best kind of Zuko.



Fair enough, though since he pulled rank to get them in the first place...

That said, it is probably him scrambling to pick up the pieces plus that little thing called the war calling. While capturing the Avatar is his personal project, he still has a job to do, so can only chase down Aang on his free time.


Admiral outranks Colonel, but only by four ranks - in anglophone armies. And there's sufficient grounds (in the modern military) for one service to temporarily co-opt units of another service at short notice like that, but usually it's somewhat discretionary.
As far as I can tell from the episode, the Yu Yan were permanently stationed at Pohuai until such time as someone directly above them in the chain of command relocates them.
And then under Zhao's command, the Stronghold is successfully infiltrated and broken out of, with ease even though almost its full complement of soldiers is fighting to recapture them.

But yes, Zhao probably took advantage of an opportunity while he was travelling. I believe this is probably the point where he started gathering the resources to begin the Invasion of the North.



Fair enough, I didn't see the Boomi thing the first time honestly, so I think we are even. :smallbiggrin:

And hey, the fight was good enough to make it into the movie! :smallbiggrin:

Though yes, in all seriousness, was a good fight. Some of Zuko's coolest fights are when he doesn't bend.

Like the fight in Don't read this if you aren't halfway into season 2 yet! Zuko Alone, where he fights off the three Earth Soldiers and then dukes it out with the Earth Bender troop commander. That is an excellent example of how fights can avoid being entirely about glamor and style, but about what is going on within and between the characters.


Argh, too many spoiler tags!
The moment I heard about the movie I knew it wasn't going to be very good. In hindsight, almost every episode in series one contains something that carries forwards into the other two, so it'd be hard to compress some four hundred minutes of show into even a two hour film. As such, the only way I've seen the film is through a multitude of online reviews.

THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH REFERENCES ALL SERIES INDISCRIMINATELY, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.

One of the things I like about Zuko is that at first, he's far more skilled at non-bending combat than at bending, but then his skills grow apiece as he integrates all his skills.
At first, as a swordsman he's very light on his feet and flowy (to the point where I've seen fanfics where Aang postulates the Blue Spirit is an airbender, or even once a waterbender (based on the idea that water redirects an enemies attacks/uses their own energy against them)), where his firebending is more 'pure' Shaolin Kung Fu, and very aggressive, almost jerky at time - power over form maybe? By mid-series two, i.e. 'Zuko Alone' his swordsmanship is more openly aggressive and . . . staccato, but still retains a lot of its original smoothness. At the same time his firebending becomes much more powerful, but also much more natural. It's not quite simple or organic, but it's very . . . to use TVTropes terms, by the end of season two he's less a flashy Dance Battler, and a bit more practical in terms of moves and style.
Then series three and dragons. This is where he starts working with his strengths and weaknesses to develop his own style. I mean, he can hold his own against Azula after that, and its probably due to his exposure to dragons, fighting all the elements regularly, and his . . . additional activities as a spy/thief/tea boy/swordsman.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You might want to edit your post, because some of the formatting messed up. Otherwise I agree completely with your analysis.

Man this thread is making me want to watch the series all over again.... which I might just do :checks if the series is on Netflix:

[LordChaos13]

Just because someone has a REASON for it, doesnt mean they wont be the Comically Ineffectual Villain
Zuko is a GOOD Character, one with depths and hidden values. But, as with all villains during an extended chase series, it is very easy to make them intentional or unintentionally bad at being, well Bad. They cant capture their enemies, make all sorts of mistakes and generally don't do their jobs.

Zuko clearly learns between fights and the fights are few and far between just enough to prove he is a significant threat and each combat has a chance of the Avatar losing
Again, if he was in every episode and always left glaring at the flying bison soaring out of sight then he wouldn't be a good villain, he would be ineffectual despite his awesome child-abuse backstory. Having one makes him a Good character, but being Ineffectual strips that away regardless.

[Eakin]

For what it's worth, I was pretty well hooked after The Storm, so to each his own I guess as to when it starts to get good.

I would honestly argue that if you were introducing someone to the series starting them off with 'The Storm' and going forward from there is the way to do it. Sure, you miss out on episodes like 'Jet' and 'Imprisoned' that way, but it's an easy place to jump into the series and has enough background/recap stuff that it eases someone into the main narrative.

[Saph]

Hey Saph what are your overall impressions?
Youve given us some specifics from the episode, but now your a few episodes in has anything changed in your perceptions?

If you could sum up each of the main characters in your impression and if they've evolved from your first conceptions of them as they got more screen time

Having just watched Ep 6 . . . yeah, my opinions on the characters are gradually changing. Up in two cases, down in one. It's a slow process, though, so I think I'll wait to write about it. Maybe I'll do a halfway house post after Episode 10.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey, does anyone remember what episode number was the one where they go to the swamp with the giant tree?

[Gray Mage]

Hey, does anyone remember what episode number was the one where they go to the swamp with the giant tree?

That'd be the fourth episode of the second season, "The Swamp".

[Ramza00]

More than useful, he's crazy powerful.

No-one seems to have pointed it out in the show yet, but when your enemies are sailing around on steamships, then having a flying monster who goes more than twice as fast as any ship makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to ever catch you unless you do something really stupid.

Not really, Appa is a living being and thus has a limited endurance. With ships and other mechanical vehicles you can keep them going all day and night (with shifts of crews) and easily catch up.

[Ramza00]

Spoilers for Saph.

The Zuko Encounters in Season 1


So I am counting the times Zuko fought "the gang"/"aang" in the first season.

Honorable Mentions for the time Zuko fought other important groups

1) Zuko vs Aang in the water tribe villiage
2) Zuko vs Aang in Zuko's room
3) Zuko vs Avatar Aang on the ship of the boat

Honorable Mention Zuko vs Zhao agni-kai

4) Zuko vs Aang on Kyoshi Island

Honorable Mention Zuko vs the Pirates

Honorable Mention Zuko vs the Earthbenders who kidnap Uncle Iroh

Honorable Mention The Blue Spirit vs the armies of Zhao

5) Zuko vs Aang with June and the paralyzing tongue beast

6) Zuko vs Katara

Honorable Mention Zuko vs Zhao

So only 6 Zuko vs Gang fights with 3 of them happening in the first two episodes. 5 Serious Honorable Mention fights where Zuko gets to show off his skills against serious opponents that are not the "good guys").

(I am ignoring the time Zuko got captured in the Winter Solstice and the time Appa has an instant KO after Zuko practically frozen to death at the north pole.)

[Grey Watcher]

I would honestly argue that if you were introducing someone to the series starting them off with 'The Storm' and going forward from there is the way to do it. Sure, you miss out on episodes like 'Jet' and 'Imprisoned' that way, but it's an easy place to jump into the series and has enough background/recap stuff that it eases someone into the main narrative.

As it happens, I can actually point out the exact line of dialogue where I said to myself, "OK, this is awesome."

[Tavar]

As it happens, I can actually point out the exact line of dialogue where I said to myself, "OK, this is awesome."
Care to share? Spoilers if the line hasn't come up yet, of course.

[huttj509]

Question on lingo:

Is "the gaang" lingo for the "Aang gang"?

[Douglas]

Question on lingo:

Is "the gaang" lingo for the "Aang gang"?
Yes, it is.

[Tavar]

Yep. Or, it's at least one of them.

[Grey Watcher]

Care to share? Spoilers if the line hasn't come up yet, of course.

"But the important thing is the Avatar gives Zuko hope."

[Absol197]

So Staph, I know this has probably already been beaten into the ground for you by this point, but like others have pointed out, the first season is probably the worst. All of my least favorite episodes are in the first season: The Warriors of Kyoshi, The King of Omashu, Jet, The Great Divide, and to a lesser extent The Waterbending Scroll. In fact, before I sat down to watch the show in its entirety the first time, I saw the episode The King of Omashu on TV, thought to myself, "This show had such a great premise and good potential, but it looks like they ruined it!" then didn't watch any of it for three years.

Then, when I decided on a whim to watch it all the way through, by the end of the first season I was glad I did.

I will say no more, because I'm sure you've heard it all before! But for your next episode, listen for the guest voice! Hint: think Star Trek :smallwink: !


~Phoenix~

EDIT: oops, I forgot about Avatar Day, which is in the second season, and is actually in the running with The Great Divide for worst episode.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Question on lingo:

Is "the gaang" lingo for the "Aang gang"?
I also believe it's a canon nickname. Don't remember which season it's from, though.

[LordChaos13]

I think it was made up by Sokka on The Wall (not gonna anything more for spoilers) right? In season 2

[Lateral]

I think it was made up by Sokka on The Wall (not gonna anything more for spoilers) right? In season 2
Nah, it's not canon. They did make up a bunch of names, but that wasn't one of them- there was 'the Boomeraang Squad,' which is similar, but in the show they're pretty much just called Team Avatar.

[Zevox]

I haven't watched the series in a while now, but I remember each season being better then the last. I'm sure that if I sit through it again, I'll find things that bug me, but I just enjoyed the progression of the series so much, and I liked how the story matured alongside the characters. Whilst I loved the second season, I remember highly enjoying the character development in the third season, and where things were going with Zuko. I also found the Fire Nation interesting, and was glad that we finally got to see more of it.
The problems I have with the third season come in two blocks. One is the episodes before the Day of Black Sun. Bluntly, they're mostly filler. As far as the main plot goes, you've got the season intro (which is itself not handled as well as it could be, since a jarring amount of time has passed since season 2's end that they need to explain in flashbacks), Zuko's character development (which could easily have been done quicker than they did it), the backstory of Sozin and Roku, and that's it. Getting to see the Fire Nation and its civilians was certainly a good thing, and I'm very glad they did it, but I think they should've been able to do it while giving the gang more important things to do than teach schoolchildren to enjoy dancing or clean up a polluted river.

Now, I don't have a problem with the occasional filler episode that just lets us have good character moments. One of my top favorite episodes period is Tales of Ba Sing Se, which is exactly that. But having the entire first half of the season be like that was a big mistake. Especially since many of the filler episodes of season 3 I'd call weaker than most of those from season 1, personally. I've mentioned that Nightmares and Daydreams is my pick for worst episode of the series, but The Headband and the Painted Lady are down there too (good only for what they show of Fire Nation civilians), as were several others. And Combustion Man was the single most pointless recurring character in the entire series.

From the Day of Black Sun though things do get good again, although I will say that I wish the episodes following didn't pair Zuko up with just one of the gang at a time, so we could see a full group dynamic with him. Unfortunately, that's just a quarter of the season.

Then we get Ember Island Players, which I've mentioned my opinion on before, and then the finale, which is the single biggest black mark on the series for me. It did some things right (which is why I pick Nightmares and Daydreams for worst episode instead) - Zuko and Iroh's reunion was actually one of the most touching, emotional moments in the series; and Azula's breakdown and fight with Zuko and Katara I quite liked. But the rest of it was pretty bad, especially with the double Deus-ex-Machina ending. For a story that was so wonderful throughout so much of it to end on such a note is a much bigger flaw than any other in the series. The rest of the bad parts were at least never critical to the plot.

[Xondoure]

The problems I have with the third season come in two blocks. One is the episodes before the Day of Black Sun. Bluntly, they're mostly filler. As far as the main plot goes, you've got the season intro (which is itself not handled as well as it could be, since a jarring amount of time has passed since season 2's end that they need to explain in flashbacks), Zuko's character development (which could easily have been done quicker than they did it), the backstory of Sozin and Roku, and that's it. Getting to see the Fire Nation and its civilians was certainly a good thing, and I'm very glad they did it, but I think they should've been able to do it while giving the gang more important things to do than teach schoolchildren to enjoy dancing or clean up a polluted river.

Now, I don't have a problem with the occasional filler episode that just lets us have good character moments. One of my top favorite episodes period is Tales of Ba Sing Se, which is exactly that. But having the entire first half of the season be like that was a big mistake. Especially since many of the filler episodes of season 3 I'd call weaker than most of those from season 1, personally. I've mentioned that Nightmares and Daydreams is my pick for worst episode of the series, but The Headband and the Painted Lady are down there too (good only for what they show of Fire Nation civilians), as were several others. And Combustion Man was the single most pointless recurring character in the entire series.

From the Day of Black Sun though things do get good again, although I will say that I wish the episodes following didn't pair Zuko up with just one of the gang at a time, so we could see a full group dynamic with him. Unfortunately, that's just a quarter of the season.

Then we get Ember Island Players, which I've mentioned my opinion on before, and then the finale, which is the single biggest black mark on the series for me. It did some things right (which is why I pick Nightmares and Daydreams for worst episode instead) - Zuko and Iroh's reunion was actually one of the most touching, emotional moments in the series; and Azula's breakdown and fight with Zuko and Katara I quite liked. But the rest of it was pretty bad, especially with the double Deus-ex-Machina ending. For a story that was so wonderful throughout so much of it to end on such a note is a much bigger flaw than any other in the series. The rest of the bad parts were at least never critical to the plot.

I quite enjoy how we completely disagree on the worst aspects of the ending.

I totally understand your complaints. They just didn't seem to bother me like they did everyone else.

Katara's presence at the Ag Ni Kai always seemed strange. She's the only reason she was needed, as her presence is what ends up being Zuko's weakest link. I don't know it just seems contrived and mostly there to give the Zutarans one last hurrah.

[MLai]

You liked Azula's breakdown? I friggin' hated it. It was another one of the deus ex machina conventions writers throw in because "little kids won't complain, they're used to it."
They made a certain villain too capable, so they have to cut her down 3 notches right in the last hour in a hamfisted way so that the heroes can stand a chance. The heroes can't just one-up her by being plain better/smarter or with a kickass knee-slapping strategy, nooooooooo~ that would require actual work on the part of the writers!