This scenario annoys me to death

[Werephilosopher]

I know it's inevitably been discussed to death online, but I never know what exact phrase to google to find some solutions to this. I'd be INCREDIBLY appreciative of any help here.

CONTEXT: My rogue (let's call him Remus) has constant concealment (if it helps, he has it from a crossbow with the Smoking enchantment from Lords of Darkness p. 180). He also has Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) from the Dark Creature template (Tome of Magic p. 161), so he can make a Hide check with his concealment even while being observed.

QUESTIONS: The Hide skill description says a check is usually made as part of a movement, and only requires a separate move action if done after sniping. If Remus wants to start the first round of combat (not the surprise round) with a full attack, can he make a Hide check first, even though he isn't moving?

If Remus is hidden from the enemy, that enemy has no Dex bonus to AC against his attacks; so a single shot from within 30 ft. does Sneak Attack damage. If Remus wants to make a full attack against that enemy, do all attacks ignore the Dex bonus to AC, thus counting as Sneak Attacks? Or does the first shot count as a Sniping attack, forcing Remus to Hide again as a move action (thus preventing him from making a full attack)?

If the answer to the previous question is, "Only the first shot denies Dex to AC," can Remus wield two crossbows and get two shots that deny Dex to AC, as if firing both bolts at the same time?

There's some other stuff about hiding, concealment, SA and the like that confuses me, but this is all I can think of atm. If you have any advice on this I'd appreciate it!

[RaviStrife]

Good questions. Rogues end up getting into some sticky rules here...just be glad you don't have to deal with the classic "You only get SA dice once a round" schtick.

As you have concealment, you can move anywhere and hide as a part of your action. This does not include the 5 ft step.

Once you have your hide, you can attack anything flatfooted and enjoy the benefits of your SA dice.

On the first round of combat, you should typically be going first anyways as a dex based character. In that sense, by all means...SA full attack away!

[Werephilosopher]

Good questions. Rogues end up getting into some sticky rules here...just be glad you don't have to deal with the classic "You only get SA dice once a round" schtick.

As you have concealment, you can move anywhere and hide as a part of your action. This does not include the 5 ft step.

Once you have your hide, you can attack anything flatfooted and enjoy the benefits of your SA dice.

On the first round of combat, you should typically be going first anyways as a dex based character. In that sense, by all means...SA full attack away!

I've read of campaigns where rogues only get one SA/round... ick. :smallannoyed:

To clarify what you mean... I can't hide while taking a 5-ft step, so I can't hide the same round I make a full attack? :smallconfused: Sorry, I'm probably reading your comment funny. Thanks for the fast response though!

[Coidzor]

I've read of campaigns where rogues only get one SA/round... ick. :smallannoyed:

To clarify what you mean... I can't hide while taking a 5-ft step, so I can't hide the same round I make a full attack? :smallconfused: Sorry, I'm probably reading your comment funny. Thanks for the fast response though!

Be hidden before combat starts is the quick and dirty solution to bypass that question.


On the first round of combat, you should typically be going first anyways as a dex based character. In that sense, by all means...SA full attack away!

Now I'm trying to remember if everyone is flat-footed in combat until their first turn comes up in the initiative count.


If the answer to the previous question is, "Only the first shot denies Dex to AC," can Remus wield two crossbows and get two shots that deny Dex to AC, as if firing both bolts at the same time?

I don't believe so. Even if you could get them to count as part of the same attack, "volley" style attacks almost always have clauses limiting precision damage dice to only one of them.

[Lightlawbliss]

There are multiple possible interpretations that can be made of the hiding rules. One interpretation is that you don't need to actually need to move to hide, just that you typically need to move to get somewhere where you can hide. Another is that you can only hide as part of a move action. I'm sure there are others, but those are the one's I remember.

[Yuki Akuma]

Now I'm trying to remember if everyone is flat-footed in combat until their first turn comes up in the initiative count.

They are..

[Werephilosopher]

Be hidden before combat starts is the quick and dirty solution to bypass that question.

I'm going to try that, of course. :smallsmile: But my usual DM enjoys ambushes, as well as combat starting during social events.


There are multiple possible interpretations that can be made of the hiding rules. One interpretation is that you don't need to actually need to move to hide, just that you typically need to move to get somewhere where you can hide. Another is that you can only hide as part of a move action. I'm sure there are others, but those are the one's I remember.

Indeed. I would interpret it as "typically need to move to hide, but if you don't need to move, you can still hide." But since I'm not the DM, I'm trying to get a general opinion.

[nedz]

Assuming you start hidden, you have two choices.

Fire once and then hide again at -20 (Sniping)
Make a full attack but end up not hidden (unless you can hide as a free/swift action — I see nothing in your OP which suggests that you can do this, if it is even possible)


You should get sneak on all of the attacks.

[Khedrac]

Ho-humm, this is an interesting one.

If you are attacking somone yet to act in that combat then they are flat-footed and you probably get sneak attack on all attacks (so not if they are undead etc or have Uncanny Dodge).

The problem with multiple attacks where the only reason you are getting precision damage is that you are hidden, is that without making the sniping check, your first attack reveals you to them and they get their Dex bonus - compare with attacking from invisibility.

So, to be honest, unless your DM allows you to hide as a FREE action (and then you would need to make the check at -20 after each attack) then you are not hidden after the first attack. What's worse, by RAW if you make more than one attack you cannot make a sniping check at the end of your attacks either (it has to be made directly after the attack that would otherwise reveal your location).

So by RAW you will only get sneak on all attacks if it is the first round and you go before your target(s).

Note: someone posted about people being flat footed until they act - that is true, but ONLY on the FIRST round of a combat.

[Morithias]

Sniping is the most useless thing ever invented.

And here's why.

Rule Compendium Page 92.

"You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging."

There is literally no difference between the penalty for hiding while full attacking and sniping.

The thing about sniping is that it's made for people who DON'T have hide in plain sight.

But if you have hide in plain sight, and attack them, and they fail their check. Know what happens?

They just don't see you. You basically have an invisibility spell. Sneak attack away!

[Diarmuid]

Assuming you start hidden, you have two choices.

Fire once and then hide again at -20 (Sniping)
Make a full attack but end up not hidden (unless you can hide as a free/swift action — I see nothing in your OP which suggests that you can do this, if it is even possible)


You should get sneak on all of the attacks.

Attacking from hidden works like attacking from Invisibility. The defender will one be denied his/her dex against the first attack as the others would be made from a stat of no longer hidden (unless it's the first round of combat and they havent gone, and then you really dont need to be hidden anyway).

[Maginomicon]

I don't believe so. Even if you could get them to count as part of the same attack, "volley" style attacks almost always have clauses limiting precision damage dice to only one of them.
Volley attacks are where the attacks happen in the same attack action. I'm pretty sure a full-attack (iteratives, natural weapons, etc.) involves multiple attack actions, so none of them count as a volley

[Averis Vol]

Volley attacks are where the attacks happen in the same attack action. I'm pretty sure a full-attack (iteratives, natural weapons, etc.) involves multiple attack actions, so none of them count as a volley

I believe he was responding to the hypothetical of using two crossbows and fluffing iteratives as firing both at once (which isn't how it works of course). That would require the dual strike feat (Cadv) which still isn't enough attacks to qualify as a volley.

[Chronos]

Hide in Plain Sight isn't necessary as long as you remain hidden. You can hide as long as you're not being observed. You can't be observed until you're no longer successfully hiding. And just being hit by an arrow will certainly reveal that an enemy is present, but isn't enough to be able to see that enemy, or even to pinpoint the enemy's square.

You do, however, still need either a source of concealment, or some ability (like the ranger's Camouflage) that removes that need.