[PF] Can doubling ever affect variable damage?

[Frosty]

Situation: A medium sized paladin casts Litany of Righteousness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-righteousness) on an evil dragon, and bypasses any SR the dragon might have.

He proceeds to use a standard attack and successfully hit the dragon with a +1 Flaming Holy Lance. His normal damage on such a hit without the Litany is 1d8 + 1 (the +1 enhance) + 7 (Str bonus two handed) + 9 (Power Attack) + 1d6 fire + 2d6 holy.

What damage would the paladin roll in this situation, *with* the Litany?

What if the paladin had also used Smite Evil on the dragon in a previous round (he did not successfully hit the dragon), and now uses Spirited Charge with the lance instead? The first successful smite attack deals double smite bonus, and his paladin level is 10 so he has a normal bonus of +10 to damage. (So now it's Smite Evil [first attack] + Litany [doubles damages] + Spirited Charge [triples damage])

[Claudius Maximus]

I've been wondering about this too, and haven't come up with a satisfactory conclusion. I suppose the safe route is to double damage from every attack as if it were a crit or something (roll all dice twice, double all static bonuses, add as a multiple if the damage is already doubled) but that doesn't hold up as well when one considers that Litany of Righteousness can double the damage from things that don't usually get that treatment, like a good cleric's Flame Strike (which are probably attacks under the very nebulous definitions I can recall).

[Frosty]

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Souju]

we had a similar issue involving Bane (for Inquisitiors) and actually had this situation come up before with our paladin.
Litany of Righteousness says it takes double damage, so it works like something possessing a weakness: simply roll the damage and double it. Rules As Written.
Of course the DM can rule it however he/she wants...

[kabreras]

As i read it, everything is x2 for this round if it come from someone with a good aura (cleric with a good deity or paly) or with the good subtype.

Can hit hard but not OP

[Souju]

on the topic of Litany of Righteousness...it's kind of annoying that inquisitors get access to the spell but don't actually benefit themselves unless they take a level in cleric or paladin since Inquisitor doesn't give the Aura of Good class feature.
I mean, it's a nice thing if you have a paladin or cleric in the group with you, but still...

[Andreaz]

His normal damage on such a hit without the Litany is 1d8 + 1 (the +1 enhance) + 7 (Str bonus two handed) + 9 (Power Attack) + 1d6 fire + 2d6 holy.

What damage would the paladin roll in this situation, *with* the Litany?

What if the paladin had also used Smite Evil on the dragon in a previous round (he did not successfully hit the dragon), and now uses Spirited Charge with the lance instead? The first successful smite attack deals double smite bonus, and his paladin level is 10 so he has a normal bonus of +10 to damage. (So now it's Smite Evil [first attack] + Litany [doubles damages] + Spirited Charge [triples damage])
It says the target takes double damage and that's it. So roll your damage and double it.
My only suggestion is that you use the conservative stacking of multipliers even if the litany isn't "in your character", meaning that you have three x2 tricks? You are doing x1+(2-1 +2-1 + 2-1)... x4 damage.
Which again is very simple: Roll your damage and quadruple it.
For simplicity apply all the multipliers at once, either before or after damage reduction. Before is probably the sane choice, I don't remember if the rules tell you when to apply DR in the face of a multiplier.

[Frosty]

So you'd say that the different wording between Spirited Charge and Litany of Righteousness (You deal double damage vs the target takes double damage), their mechanics are different?

[Fax Celestis]

It doubles.

Only crits specify that you don't multiply bonus dice.

[Frosty]

It doubles.

Only crits specify that you don't multiply bonus dice.

Wait, so damage from Flaming and Holy gets doubled (rolled twice) on a spirited charge as well? :smalleek: Source?

[Fax Celestis]

Wait, so damage from Flaming and Holy gets doubled (rolled twice) on a spirited charge as well? :smalleek: Source?

No, wait, PF changed that text too.


Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

So, to answer your question, you only ever multiply fixed-value damage, including for things like Spirited Charge.

(now if only there was a melee version of Maximize Spell)

[Fax Celestis]

What would this mean with spirited charge-lance (so, triple damage)? Is that quad damage? Or is it more?

Each doubling is a +100%. Spirited Charge is x2, lance is x2, for a total of x3. Litany of righteousness is another doubling, so it'd be x4.

[Ravens_cry]

Each doubling is a +100%. Spirited Charge is x2, lance is x2, for a total of x3. Litany of righteousness is another doubling, so it'd be x4.
Spirited Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spirited-charge-combat---final) actually says triple damage with a lance directly. The end result is the same mind you, but the steps are different.

[Frosty]

Hmm...not as impressive as I had hoped. I guess it's all about the Power Attack and the Smite bonuses then. Still, a base +27 static damage before taking into account Str bonuses and Enhancement bonuses is decent if you can x4 it.

[Ravens_cry]

Hmm...not as impressive as I had hoped. I guess it's all about the Power Attack and the Smite bonuses then. Still, a base +27 static damage before taking into account Str bonuses and Enhancement bonuses is decent if you can x4 it.
Just a little yes. Paladins have two very nice sources of static damage, Smite and Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge). Mounted Skirmisher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mounted-skirmisher-combat), which is potentially* take-able at first level by RAW as a dip in Sohei Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei).
*talk to your DM. What is defined as a Mounted Combat feat is undefined, though something with Mounted Combat in the pre-requisites surely counts, right.

[Frosty]

Thanks, Fax.

Ravens, if I'm already heavily invested into charging and stacking multipliers, then I'm really not too concerned about full-attacking :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

Thanks, Fax.

Ravens, if I'm already heavily invested into charging and stacking multipliers, then I'm really not too concerned about full-attacking :smallsmile:
I am just saying you can potentially do both. All those sweet, sweet multipliers apply to all attacks. Still, if you want one big strike, Furious Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat) sounds like a feat for you. Basically, have your accuracy cake and eat the delicious bonus damage too.

[gr8artist]

The phrasing on Litany is different from spirited charge because it has to be. The spell is obviously intending to benefit every good creature that attacks the bad creature, regardless of distance or other factors. So most spells, with their "give such and such bonus to all creatures in X group" wouldn't work with this concept. The easiest fix is to phrase it from the victim's perspective; this has no impact on the desired or logical outcome of the effect.
When you say variable, I assume you mean dice? If so, then I would say the current precedent is that other than base weapon damage, you never - ever - double dice.
If a paladin smites on his first turn, drawing his weapon and preparing to charge, and then casts Litany on his next turn before charging, with all the modifiers you listed, I believe he would deal a lot of damage on his opening attack.
4d8 + 4 + 28 + 36 + 80 + 1d6 + 2d6
Weapon, Enhance, Strength, P.Atk, Smite, Fire, Holy
with an extra 2d8 + 2 + 14 + 18 + 40 if you crit.
Total 4d8+3d6+148 or 6d8+3d6+222 if you're that lucky.