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Wandering Saint
2013-09-15, 07:11 PM
Hello, friends! I know this isn't really customary for a first posting, but I am a new DM that is trying to get a group of online friends into DnD 3.5e. We are going to be using Roll20 which we are all familiar with, and this is my first time really DMing.

I'm confident in my ability to tell a good story, but I need some advice, as I'm having to create a whole new world for this campaign (New pantheons, new maps, new cities, ect!) and it's quite overwhealming!

As for the story (Spoilered in case one of them read this)

The party starts off fairly simply with them trying to avert a war between two small countries, who are being tricked into war by a sect of necromancers. If the party does not stop the necromancer and find out his plans in case of his death, then the southern kingdoms will be wracked by a plague, for example.
The primary kicker of the Grand Campaign is that at lv 5, the party will meet a woman (about 19-24 years of age) who has been, for lack of better terms, a pariah all of her life. She possesses immense and terrible power that cannot even be identified by the non-draconic master spellcasters of the realm (as she is essentially the Daughter of Chaos.) They take her to a city far to the North where a holy order of a Lawful Good Goddess, suffering strange and debilitating effects on the journey there, where they drop her off, and we don't see her for a while.
Around lv 15, she returns, and through a campaign I haven't planned just yet, she sacrifices herself to kill a demon lord, and is sucked into a plane of outer existence. She is possessed by a demon (or something) and eventually attains godhood with the unwitting help of the party, and proceeds to go on a slow, but methodical killing spree of the original pantheon. The party must stop her (at this point, they are easily in the higher levels) and eventually kill her before the last God(ess) is slain, and the world's skies are shrouded in utter darkness.

Just let me know what you think, and, if you think you have some advice, go ahead and give it to me! I have a lot of time.
Glad to be here! :smallredface:

Ailowynn
2013-09-15, 07:35 PM
I think your story is too planned out. Getting the party to do some of that stuff is going to be nigh-impossible without some serious railroading. It usually works best to have a starting point and a few possible endings; not only is this easier on you, but it gives impact to player actions and makes the game more fun in the long run.

As far as worldbuilding, I always like to start with a map. Just sketch out some basic landforms and such. Then come up with the primary countries/factions; draw those onto the map, and then detail them. If you look under the "Gaming" heading in the sidebar on this site, you can find The New World, a nice set of articles on worldbuilding. Very helpful.

As far as general DMing advice...

*Never say "no." Say "yes, and..."; or at least "you could, but...." Telling players that they can't do something is a sure way to get everyone peeved off. If you really need to railroad, just say, "sure, you could turn left, but it's a dark alley filled with half-demonic rogues, while the right side is a stairway into heaven." Okay, maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.

*Give NPCs depth, and, especially, flaws. In a recent Star Wars campaign I ran, the PCs were part of an elite squadron, made up of NPCs that I did a poor job with personality-wise--except one: a droid named FR-T3. He was a jerk. Plain and simple. A condescending jerk. And of all of the members of the squadron, he was the players' (not necessarily the characters') favorite.

*Know the rules. Read the entire PHB and DMG, and the rules-related sections of the MM, front to back. Jot down some notes on stuff that's complex or hard to remember. The most annoying thing ever is having a DM who doesn't know half the rules (or in the case of my GM, one who didn't even own the books :smallfurious: )

*Don't be blinded by the rules. Bend or break them if it would be fun to do so (generally don't do this with NPCs and such, though). Let the players be awesome.

*Listen to player feedback. The other most annoying thing in the world is when your GM asks for feedback, or simply gets feedback, and then doesn't change anything. Trust me, I know. :smallfurious:

*Have a system for keeping track of things, and move NPCs around as quickly as possible. Don't forget initiative order (or in the case of my GM, forget that, not only is that Wizard's special acid dart ability limited to 6/day, but forget that he has, in fact, been at 0 hp since the second round of combat :smallfurious: )

*The PCs are the stars. It's not your world, it's theirs. If you don't let them screw up your storyline, you'll miss out on the funnest part of GMing, and, eventually, just get burnt out. What's the fun if you know exactly what's going to happen?

*Use a gridded map. Trust me, theater of the mind is not good for as tactical an RPG as 3.5.



Oh, and I'd suggest running a couple of one-shot adventures beforehand, to get as many of your screw-ups out of the way as possible, and get a feel for how the DM in this system.

That's all I've got for now.

Savannah
2013-09-15, 07:59 PM
I agree with Ailowynn, that's way too structured of a plot. I like this article (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots) which talks about how to prep so that you can adapt to the PCs instead of feeling like you have to force them to do what you preplanned. (Remember, you're not telling a story. You're facilitating the story the players want to tell.)

For general DMing advice, I again agree with Ailowynn. I'd also add this: You will screw up. It's going to happen. You're going to forget something or misremember something. Don't sweat it. Just do whatever's fair to resolve the situation and let your players know why you're changing something if you choose to change it.

Wandering Saint
2013-09-15, 09:46 PM
I should reiterate... The above spoiler is but one of many paths I am accounting for. However, I am still keeping the waterways open for all paths, and I have no intention of railroading my players. The path described below is basically their final chance to stop the end of the world.

But thanks for the advice so far!

Matre
2013-09-16, 02:52 AM
I should reiterate... The above spoiler is but one of many paths I am accounting for. However, I am still keeping the waterways open for all paths, and I have no intention of railroading my players. The path described below is basically their final chance to stop the end of the world.

But thanks for the advice so far!

I don't mean to split hairs here, but that kind of sounds like railroading to me. For my own part, starting with preconceived notions of "how things have to occur" is going to cause you trouble when you deal with players that don't want to work in that kind of a framework. I find that just reacting to what the players want is a much cleaner way to allow the story to play out as a DM.

Personally, what has worked best for my campaigns is establishing a series of "beginnings" of quests for players to find, and as they show interest in a particular quest, expound on it if I have material, or borrow from material for things I had created with totally different purposes in mind, or even just wildly invent things on the fly (very important to keep notes if you do this). Some of the best sessions I've had have happened like that, where players wanted to do things that I didn't expect, and I spent the rest of the session shooting from the hip.

~Corvus~
2013-09-16, 04:30 AM
Have fun.

You will screw up. It's going to happen. You're going to forget something or misremember something. Don't sweat it. Just do whatever's fair to resolve the situation and let your players know why you're changing something if you choose to change it.

When you're having fun, even if you screw up, it doesn't look so bad. You may even laugh it off as you move on. Savannah's right on the mark here.

Most everything Ailowynn says is golden. Also, keep a Campaign Journal, write down things that happen, keep it organized: I usually split the page in two, and write on the left side big events / happenings of the session & then player reactions / actions on the right side. It works stupendously for me. A journal can keep track of loot, too.

BUT, back to story!


I think your story is too planned out. Getting the party to do some of that stuff is going to be nigh-impossible without some serious railroading.
Yep. Having a plan for a story is excellent. Nevertheless, like writing a good story or novel, let the characters decide what to do for themselves and let them surprise you~ If you're the kind of person that likes to have a plan of what can happen ahead of time, great! You don't need to make all of your stuff up on the fly like Matre.

You may have a definite plan for events or people that the characters will encounter, and as I see it, the layout in spoilers is more along the lines of what you have planned if the PCs don't roleplay or mess with your plans and everything goes according to the "script". Just make sure to let those encounters happen when the time is right for the story.

I think the greatest villains / antagonists are the ones with strong emotional backstories, or (on the other side) aren't too far removed from the PCs in terms of ultimate goals.

Throw in something sinister and mostly unexplained that messes up both the PCs' plans and the main villain's plans.

Finally, as Matre has suggested, even if you like to plan, there's going to be a moment when you get this brilliant, unplanned urge to throw something crazy at the PCs or let the PCs do something awesome...say yes to that gut urge once in a while, and see what greatness comes because of it.

Edit: everything i've said about story is pretty much said in a different way (and more eloquently) from Savannah's link. Go check it out.

Wandering Saint
2013-09-16, 10:08 AM
Okay, okay, after reading over this, I've decided to keep the above plot as merely a possibility, alone. Instead, what I have decided to start off with is, instead, a general plot that appears to be simple bull-headed political hostilities that will have scenarios that the PCs can react to, and, hopefully, try to prevent:

Two Kingdoms, conveniently labeled A and B for the duration of this outline. The two kingdoms have never really gotten along together, ever since a campaign involving both campaigns saw both kingdoms attacked by a third kingdom, hellbent on capturing the territory of the other two kingdoms. Long story short, most of the Lords in either Kingdom were sour about the Lords from the other kingdom not honoring their defensive pact. There are cooler heads that shout that both kingdoms were, indeed, attacked at the same time, and both countries, while it has been only ten short years since they were simultaneously attacked by the third kingdom, are on the brink of hostilities.

A necromantic order, seeking to gain more fodder for their grand master's army, are seeking to start up the war again between all three kingdoms, using a variety of scenarios involving false flag attacks (a patrol of mercenaries attacking the patrols of another kingdom whilst wearing the heraldry of one of the opposing lords), assassinations, and blatant acts of sabotage.

Ideally, the players will be trying to investigate why the three war-torn nations would try to be starting hostilities again, but in case they don't, I'm making scenarios in case the PCs decide to fight for a particular kingdom, rather than discovering/focusing on the necromancer order.

This is all quite new to me, and I appreciate your patience! :smalleek:

~Corvus~
2013-09-16, 10:23 AM
Well, again, it's basically your style of play as a DM or a storyteller. if you want to have a story that stretches into the massive, epic-story length of, say, Wheel of Time (http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/index.php), then by all means, write up specific scenarios and wait for the right moment to play them out.

...The other people here and the article are saying "nah, that's not usually practical to do as a DM and requires way too much work." I happen to agree with them.

But I don't think we'll kick your ass if you go with what feels best for you. (rule one: have fun)

Roguenewb
2013-09-16, 11:54 AM
I'll give you this advice based on ten years of DMing: Don't write NPC based plots. If this random pariah lady is the focus of all this activity, then she becomes the focus of the story, even if she never moves a hair. Now, it's fine for the antagonist to be a large part of the campaign, cause the antagonist always is important anyway, but allies should never be that important. I'd either write her out into an item/spirit that can't really act on its own, to a "bound power" in an otherwise unknowing individual who doesn't have a lot of agency so the players are in motion, or make her oppose the party, correctly or wrongly.

AKA_Bait
2013-09-16, 12:07 PM
There's a guide containing general advice which I crowd sourced from the playground several years ago in my signature block.

Generally, I agree with all the advice given on this thread so far about being sure to (a) keep your planned plot development flexible, (b) be sure that the players or their direct antagonists are the ones driving the action.

Kol Korran
2013-09-16, 02:38 PM
First of all, welcome to GMing! It's a wonderful role, onethat I enjoygreatly, in which you constantly learn. I've been doing this for many years now, and I'm still learnign new things all the time. Keep a journal, ask your friends or the peopel of this forum, and enjoy!

I expect Kyoryu to jump in any moment now, but I think I can summarize his concepts, which I've come to learn through FATE surprisingly. In order to make a great game you need to focus on two key concepts:

1) What are the important questions? These are the big conflicts, the big things that change things. Will the countries find out who is behind the attacks? will the necromancers gain control on either country? will the countries start a war? These are the big questions, but as you prepare adventures, you can start by askign the questions relevant there.

Don't forget the character relevant questions, coming from their backgrounds/ personalities/ relations in the world and so on. If you don't have questions for them, then it's a BIG hint you should include something in your adventure that asks these questions. Let me rephrase it-
The questions define the story!

Now, there are several important things about questions:
- You don't plan the answers to the questions: The players will come to decide them. You don't decide before hand that they will expose the necromancers involvement, or that country A will go to war nonetheless or such. You set out the scene, and let the players play, and then you... REACT, as the world would. It's quite ok to try and anticipate possible actions of the PCs, however- don't force their hands/ guide them/ "nudge them" towards a certain direction, and if they don't go in any of the anticipated routes (and they won't every once in awhile), react as best you can.
- Different outcomes should MATTER: answering a question this way or that should lead to different results.If you're not ready to face some answer, then figure out a way to do so. Would the party discover the necromancers involvement in inciting the wars? What if the they don't? :smallfrown:... don't make sure they will succeed- stories about failure and coming back are as exciting. the party fails, and war erupts, even though they may feel something is wrong. your story takes a different turn altogether, but it can be a much more rewarding story- now the necromancers are a force to be reckoned with, suddenly they are clever, capable, powerful. ask questions, and be able to let all answers, includign failures, be ok.
-The characters must have a key role in answering these questions: if the main entities that answer the questions are NPCs, then it's not a good question. the game is about the PCs and their actions. NPCs may have a place, even an important place in answering a question, but the main role is the PCs. Note that their contribution may also be inaction, laziness or disregarding some issue or such. That's ok too.

2) The players change the game through CHOICES: This sort of stems from the questions, but is not entirely so. In the game you present the party with choices. This can be as simple as "do you turn left or right" to "so now you have a kingdom, what do you do?". The idea is that the one main thing that gives the party a feel of control of their fate, is making choices and seeing the results. As with the questions, choices should matter, and not be false. Here are some suggestions on making good choices:
1) You don't need to present a set number of choices: "you can go with option A, B or C". Prepare for the party to suggest D. If they do- go for it! Player suggested plans are usually the most entertaining! Again, it's quite ok to anticipate some ideas, but accept and roll with things if the players take it another way.
2) Don't make too obvious choices. Make confounding choices, tough choices, similar ones or with partial info, with a lot on the stakes. Make the party make decisions based on judgment and with a not clear cut issue. These situations are often remembered far longer. (I messed this rule up by offerign a simple choice in my last session, I think it lessened the effect of the choice)
3) I suggest to prepare general situations and scenes/ set ups, WITHOUT knowing how the party will solve them! (And I suggest making brute force an unlikely solution) Put in some weaknesses and strengths of various aspects of the situation (NPCs, creatures, terrain, information and more), but nothing too conclusive to solve the situation. You'd be amazed by the creativity and inginuity that your players might come up with. For an example- your players might find that there is a necromancer inflitrator, but he is highly respected, with lots of ties, has good protection, and rarely leave the office. How will they get him? Or they seek info from someone who died. They find out he last gave a confession to an old senile priest. Confessions are holy and sacrament, how will they get the info? and more...

The "can't win by normal methods" situations are the most rewarding in my experience.


Ok, that is all of my advice I think- Questions and Choices. Good Luck!

Tim Proctor
2013-09-16, 02:45 PM
I try to give the players three choices, but the outcomes call all be the same. An example from my adventure notes for next time:

Once the group returns to their apartments and gets their gear they are approached by three people at the same time, one dressed as a wizard wearing an owl necklace, one aristocrat wearing a fox collar pin, and another a monk wearing traditional orange gi/robes with a black monkey on the back.

“Excuse me but you have pointy things and I need your help.” Exclaims the Wizard.

“No, I am in need of adventurers to help a business partner of mine fulfill his contractual duties, there is money in it for you.” The Aristocrat exclaims.

“But I am attempting to feed the poor and a large ruffian is stopping me from feeding them, you will gain the gratitude of the poor and the gods.” The Monk says.

“But, wait… I am an important Wizard and I am teaching a class at the academy today, in fact that is part of the problem see I am teaching a class on massive fireballs and other boomstick spells and that is all I prepared today, my apprentice summoned a creature in my scroll room and I need someone to remove the creature without destroying all my scrolls and tomes, which is something I can’t do until tomorrow… I will give you each a magical item.” The Wizard says.

“My business partner is the best sculpture in all of Perth, an artist so accurate that his statues look absolutely perfect to the minute details. Anyways He was supposed to get me a statue this week, even more he has not delivered the last four that he owes. I need some intimidating people like you adventurers to pay him a visit, there is 10,000 gold in it”. The Aristocrat explains.

“Alas, I cannot give you material possessions as these two, but by removing this ruffian and applying corrective behavior you will not only make many people happy, people that haven’t eaten in days as well as please the gods and I will give all of you a lowly monk’s blessing” The monk explains..

The Wizard escorts the group to a single house, which does in fact designate the Wizard as an important and wealthy individual. The shows them the basement and says that the creature is in there… he shows them another room full of odd items, weapons, etc. He then shouts to the open air, ”House when they get that beast out of here let them have one item each from this room, also make sure that they don’t wreck the place” he then walks out as a disembodied voice says “the Ethereal Marauder is in the scroll room, I have unlocked the door”.

Ethereal Marauder - Once attacked the group sees a strange creature with a massive mouth about 4 feet tall 7 feet long and ranging in color from bright blue in its chest to deep violet on its back.

The following day the group hears kids playing shouting that they are the jury and they are going to deliver the verdict. The word is out that they are a group of adventuring heroes and helping wizards and care about the public, the is a strong level of fandemonium in the slums about the group.

The Aristocrat escorts the group to a warehouse and unlocks a door; the warehouse is full of humanoid statues of ejaculate quality (okay **** spell check, immaculate). He explains that his partner has a studio in the back of the warehouse, and they can probably find him there. He will be waiting at the tavern around the corner having tea as these sort of these get his nerves all upset. Without too much effort they find the man who looks frazzled he says “I can’t do it, I don’t do statues of kids” the man says and when pressed throws a Cockatrice at them.

Cockatrice – the group is attacked by a small mangy chicken thing, after the fight the group can see that he isn’t really a sculptor but has been using the cockatrice to petrify people and sell them, probably the reason he wouldn’t make a statue of children.

At the end of the fighting three hounds show up and say that they heard commotion and want to know what happens. Once they see the cockatrice they understand and start to pray and slowly the statues turn back into people. The people are confused about what is happening and how they got there, the Hounds explain that the group are heroes and rescued them. The aristocrat is appalled at what his associate was doing, and pays the group their gold as he throws up. The following day the group hears kids playing shouting that they are the jury and they are going to deliver the verdict. The word is out that they are a group of adventuring heroes and stop crimes and care about the public, there is a strong level of fandemonium in the slums about the group.

The Monk escorts the group into a close section of the slums where a large Ogre is standing, the Ogre says “I’m hungry Monk, feed me”. The Monk says “I have given you the same share that everyone gets I am sorry but I can offer you no more and if you continue to stop me from feeding the others these fine people will apply corrective behavior techniques to modify your attitude”. The Ogre looks at the group and back at the Monk and says “How about I eat them”.

Ogre – is 9 to 10 feet tall will dull yellow skill with brown spots wearing rotting hide, which smells almost as bad as the ogre itself does.

The Monk’s blessing is a fate point each. The following day the group hears kids playing shouting that they are the jury and they are going to deliver the verdict and stopping evil ogres that are keeping people from getting food. The word is out that they are a group of adventuring heroes and stop crimes and care about the public, there is a strong level of fandemonium in the slums about the group.

LastOblivion
2013-09-16, 02:51 PM
I've only been DMing for a few years but i know of a few techniques that have really help me out over the years.

My favorite encounters are gauging encounters. "just how strong are the PCs?" "How much is too much?" there was always points in time where you will find yourself underestimating or overestimating your players. What you do is throw in a encounter to test them from time to time.

My favorite of these was when the players ran into a mysterious NPC who threw a pendent on the ground causing undead to rise from the ground. Start with a few skeletons or zombies, if the PCs are having trouble, then leave it at a few, but if they can handle the number you set out, have more rise, then you can start to throw in heavier undead or undead archers at a distance and so on. There is no set number so you can adjust it. by the end you have an idea how strong your PCs are or have become.

This same Mysterious NPC can always just show up when every need a new estimate. My PCs are always eager for a rematch

also, don't forgot to pull punches in such test fights. If you roll a crit, dont tell the player he died, change the roll. the goal is to test how many undead it takes to stop the party, when it looks like the players cant win, the undead will just happen to start failing every roll and falling all over themselves.

kyoryu
2013-09-17, 06:19 PM
I read Kol Korran's comments, and thought to myself "Hrm, that sounds a lot like my recent hobby horse about questions and decisions..." :)

The only thing I'd add to that is that it's often useful to thing of "campaign turns", where the PCs and antagonists get a chance to do something proactive. This can be mostly hidden from the players, but thinking in terms of "Okay, what will this NPC do *now*?" is a great way to keep the campaign world dynamic and "alive". The players don't always need to directly see what the NPCs do...

I find that thinking of these in terms of Fate's four actions helps - Overcome, Create Advantage, Attack, and Defend.

Overcome = try to take out some asset/advantage of the enemy
Create Advantage = try to create some asset/advantage
Attack = directly assault the enemy (shouldn't be the most common)
Defend = go on the defensive

The other thing I'd say is to listen to what your players care about, and make those things central. Your players probably don't care about your NPCs or plots, since they're not invested in them. Encourage your players to "invest" in things emotionally or otherwise, and then make those things central to the plot. Throw a bunch of stuff at them, monster of the week style - and then see what they respond to the best, whether that's loving it or absolutely hating it in a "that darned guy!" way, not a "that sucked!" way, though separating the two can be a trick...